Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
That and those colony ships will be somewhat pissed that, once they finally get to their destination, the planet is already colonized by colony ships that went a whole helluva faster.
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
Witch_Hunter_84 on
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
Actually didn't the Vatican recently say that aliens were A-OK?
Cultural Geek Girl on
Buttoneer, Brigadeer, and Keeper of the Book of Wil Wheaton.
Triwizard Drinking Tournament - '09 !Hufflepuff unofficial conscript, '10 !Gryffindor
Nerd blog at culturalgeekgirl.com
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
Actually didn't the Vatican recently say that aliens were A-OK?
It wouldn't surprise me. The Catholic church I know today is surprisingly more foreward thinking thatn the one my father grew up in, props to John Paul II for that I guess. Now, if they'd only get to work on that pedophelia thing . . .
Witch_Hunter_84 on
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten in your presence.
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
I keep hearing that argument or others like it, and I just don't get it. Why would the discovery of intelligent space aliens be an issue for Christianity? I mean, the discovery of an entire continent full of human beings that had never heard of Jesus was not a problem for people in 1492. What would be so different about finding a planet full of aliens that never heard of Jesus in the 21st Century?
If we would build a generation ship, we could reach Gilse 581 g within three generations with sub light propulsion. That is quite practical. This world is ours for the taking... if not already inhabited.
No its bloody not.
Carl Sagan would say it is
Then again he had silly notions
We can't reach mars yet. How do we think we can send a ship for 3 generations off into deep space to a planet we know little about?
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
I keep hearing that argument or others like it, and I just don't get it. Why would the discovery of intelligent space aliens be an issue for Christianity? I mean, the discovery of an entire continent full of human beings that had never heard of Jesus was not a problem for people in 1492. What would be so different about finding a planet full of aliens that never heard of Jesus in the 21st Century?
I would guess that the whole "God made the Earth" thing might be kind of hard to reconcile if one wasn't willing to approach the whole thing as allegory.
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
I keep hearing that argument or others like it, and I just don't get it. Why would the discovery of intelligent space aliens be an issue for Christianity? I mean, the discovery of an entire continent full of human beings that had never heard of Jesus was not a problem for people in 1492. What would be so different about finding a planet full of aliens that never heard of Jesus in the 21st Century?
People forget that religious people are very good at ignoring the obvious.
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
I keep hearing that argument or others like it, and I just don't get it. Why would the discovery of intelligent space aliens be an issue for Christianity? I mean, the discovery of an entire continent full of human beings that had never heard of Jesus was not a problem for people in 1492. What would be so different about finding a planet full of aliens that never heard of Jesus in the 21st Century?
I would guess that the whole "God made the Earth" thing might be kind of hard to reconcile if one wasn't willing to approach the whole thing as allegory.
They already allegorized the conflicting accounts of creation and the fact that plants are created before the sun in Genesis.
Couscous on
0
Options
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
I keep hearing that argument or others like it, and I just don't get it. Why would the discovery of intelligent space aliens be an issue for Christianity? I mean, the discovery of an entire continent full of human beings that had never heard of Jesus was not a problem for people in 1492. What would be so different about finding a planet full of aliens that never heard of Jesus in the 21st Century?
I would guess that the whole "God made the Earth" thing might be kind of hard to reconcile if one wasn't willing to approach the whole thing as allegory.
Also, it says explicitly that God made the Heavens and the Earth. I thought the whole premise of this thread was that the atheists were supposed to know this stuff.
Cultural Geek Girl on
Buttoneer, Brigadeer, and Keeper of the Book of Wil Wheaton.
Triwizard Drinking Tournament - '09 !Hufflepuff unofficial conscript, '10 !Gryffindor
Nerd blog at culturalgeekgirl.com
The stars exist for the benefit of keeping track of time, silly. Also, they were created after plants were made.
# Third day: God commands the waters below to be gathered together in one place, and dry land to appear (the third command).[Gen 1:9–10] "earth" and "sea" are named. God commands the earth to bring forth grass, plants, and fruit-bearing trees (the fourth command).
# Fourth day: God creates lights in the firmament (the fifth command)[Gen 1:14–15] to separate light from darkness and to mark days, seasons and years. Two great lights are made (most likely the Sun and Moon, but not named), and the stars.
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
I keep hearing that argument or others like it, and I just don't get it. Why would the discovery of intelligent space aliens be an issue for Christianity? I mean, the discovery of an entire continent full of human beings that had never heard of Jesus was not a problem for people in 1492. What would be so different about finding a planet full of aliens that never heard of Jesus in the 21st Century?
I would guess that the whole "God made the Earth" thing might be kind of hard to reconcile if one wasn't willing to approach the whole thing as allegory.
Also, it says explicitly that God made the Heavens and the Earth. I thought the whole premise of this thread was that the atheists were supposed to know this stuff.
Hey, cut us some slack. I spent the last year and a half studying the ACTUAL history of creation, I don't have time for all this allegorical nonsense. :P
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
I keep hearing that argument or others like it, and I just don't get it. Why would the discovery of intelligent space aliens be an issue for Christianity? I mean, the discovery of an entire continent full of human beings that had never heard of Jesus was not a problem for people in 1492. What would be so different about finding a planet full of aliens that never heard of Jesus in the 21st Century?
I would guess that the whole "God made the Earth" thing might be kind of hard to reconcile if one wasn't willing to approach the whole thing as allegory.
Young-Earth Creationists have no problem dismissing billions of years of natural history and an insurmountable amount of evidence. I don't see why one more piece of evidence literally walking up to them and shaking their hand would be a problem.
At any rate, I've never heard the creation story told as a problem for Christianity if aliens are found. I've always heard that there would be problems with the uniqueness of Christ and a planet of people he never saved and so on. Which is what I don't get, since a whole continent that was never visited by Christ was not a problem. I thought that was what Witch_Hunter was talking about.
At any rate, I've never heard the creation story told as a problem for Christianity if aliens are found. I've always heard that there would be problems with the uniqueness of Christ and a planet of people he never saved and so on. Which is what I don't get, since a whole continent that was never visited by Christ was not a problem. I thought that was what Witch_Hunter was talking about.
You might also think that the whole continents unvisited by Christ should be a problem, of which this would only be a yet more dramatic version.
At any rate, I've never heard the creation story told as a problem for Christianity if aliens are found. I've always heard that there would be problems with the uniqueness of Christ and a planet of people he never saved and so on. Which is what I don't get, since a whole continent that was never visited by Christ was not a problem. I thought that was what Witch_Hunter was talking about.
You might also think that the whole continents unvisited by Christ should be a problem, of which this would only be a yet more dramatic version.
Only if you subscribe to the Pauline idea that belief in Christ's ressurection is the only path to salvation, which Jesus himself didn't seem to (see the parable of the goats and the sheep, for example).
The real question is would Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses charter their own spaceships to go knocking door to door (pod to . . . pod?), handing out pamplets to the aliens.
You might also think that the whole continents unvisited by Christ should be a problem, of which this would only be a yet more dramatic version.
Only if you subscribe to the Pauline idea that belief in Christ's ressurection is the only path to salvation, which Jesus himself didn't seem to (see the parable of the goats and the sheep, for example).
I realize there are a plethora of ways to try to get around the "born in Indonesia? Tough luck!" problem. I don't find any particularly convincing, however. But even beyond the salvation problem, you have to wonder: why on Earth did god choose to appear exclusively to some random Semites? Why them and no one else? Why did god have a chosen people? How does that even make any sense?
It's basically further evidence for the notion that this is a particular myth of a particular culture.
I've always really believed that once humanity ever encountered alien civilizations, the concept of any of our religions that feature a single, omnipotent deity would be blown right out of the water.
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
Nope, they've already covered their ass. The Vatican said that aliens and Jesus would be okie-dokie-artichokie. Good ol' benny16 is one step ahead of you.
Aside, I'll believe in aliens after I've caught one and cut it open.
Cedar Brown on
0
Options
ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
At any rate, I've never heard the creation story told as a problem for Christianity if aliens are found. I've always heard that there would be problems with the uniqueness of Christ and a planet of people he never saved and so on. Which is what I don't get, since a whole continent that was never visited by Christ was not a problem. I thought that was what Witch_Hunter was talking about.
You might also think that the whole continents unvisited by Christ should be a problem, of which this would only be a yet more dramatic version.
Hey, if God had wanted those folks saved, he would've given them their own magical hippie to kill.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
You might also think that the whole continents unvisited by Christ should be a problem, of which this would only be a yet more dramatic version.
Only if you subscribe to the Pauline idea that belief in Christ's ressurection is the only path to salvation, which Jesus himself didn't seem to (see the parable of the goats and the sheep, for example).
I realize there are a plethora of ways to try to get around the "born in Indonesia? Tough luck!" problem. I don't find any particularly convincing, however. But even beyond the salvation problem, you have to wonder: why on Earth did god choose to appear exclusively to some random Semites? Why them and no one else? Why did god have a chosen people? How does that even make any sense?
It's basically further evidence for the notion that this is a particular myth of a particular culture.
You don't find what Jesus Christ said to be a particularly convincing argument on Christianity? Well, that certainly covers a lot of bases.
As for your other questions, I have only two possible answers you can pick from:
1. He has an plan and that was part of it.
2. How the fuck should I know?
Richy on
0
Options
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
What is the arguments for 'what if it's impossible for someone to learn about Christ' scenario? I was basically told that if it was a baby, it's cool they go to heaven. If they're an adult, they're SOL and going to hell. I was also told why it's important to spread the word and expand the kingdom of heaven and generally bug the hell out of me about it.
The plethora of contradictory beliefs separated by geography is a really central problem for religion in general (not just Christianity in particular). It's the old pithy "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." This works on the monotheists, at least. In my opinion it isn't just a problem for religion, it's the central problem of religion; that is, whatever you might quibble about credulity or erosion of rationality or the misappropriation of power, the worst thing about religion is the way it divides people against each other on the basis of transcendental notions.
What is the arguments for 'what if it's impossible for someone to learn about Christ' scenario? I was basically told that if it was a baby, it's cool they go to heaven. If they're an adult, they're SOL and going to hell. I was also told why it's important to spread the word and expand the kingdom of heaven and generally bug the hell out of me about it.
It depends on who you ask, at least in my experience. Some will tell you that adults who haven't been introduced to Christ are fucked, and that's why they have to spread the news. Others will tell you that if it was simply a matter of them not having been told they will be viewed as children by God and thus raised to heaven.
Which has to pose an interesting internal quandary for anyone who holds the second view, as in the majority of cases that means telling someone about Christ is actually going to damn them in the end.
What is the arguments for 'what if it's impossible for someone to learn about Christ' scenario? I was basically told that if it was a baby, it's cool they go to heaven. If they're an adult, they're SOL and going to hell. I was also told why it's important to spread the word and expand the kingdom of heaven and generally bug the hell out of me about it.
It depends on who you ask, at least in my experience. Some will tell you that adults who haven't been introduced to Christ are fucked, and that's why they have to spread the news. Others will tell you that if it was simply a matter of them not having been told they will be viewed as children by God and thus raised to heaven.
Which has to pose an interesting internal quandary for anyone who holds the second view, as in the majority of cases that means telling someone about Christ is actually going to damn them in the end.
There's also the claim that everyone on the planet has been given a fair chance to accept Jesus as savior. Doesn't matter if you're born in the jungle, raised by monkeys, and die without ever having met another human being - God gave you a chance at some point, and you were just too much of a sinner to accept his divine gift.
And then there's Calvinism, which basically asserts that everything's already decided, and some people just don't get a chance to go to Heaven because God says so, so fuck 'em.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
What is the arguments for 'what if it's impossible for someone to learn about Christ' scenario? I was basically told that if it was a baby, it's cool they go to heaven. If they're an adult, they're SOL and going to hell. I was also told why it's important to spread the word and expand the kingdom of heaven and generally bug the hell out of me about it.
It depends on who you ask, at least in my experience. Some will tell you that adults who haven't been introduced to Christ are fucked, and that's why they have to spread the news. Others will tell you that if it was simply a matter of them not having been told they will be viewed as children by God and thus raised to heaven.
Which has to pose an interesting internal quandary for anyone who holds the second view, as in the majority of cases that means telling someone about Christ is actually going to damn them in the end.
There's also the claim that everyone on the planet has been given a fair chance to accept Jesus as savior. Doesn't matter if you're born in the jungle, raised by monkeys, and die without ever having met another human being - God gave you a chance at some point, and you were just too much of a sinner to accept his divine gift.
And then there's Calvinism, which basically asserts that everything's already decided, and some people just don't get a chance to go to Heaven because God says so, so fuck 'em.
Calvanism gets an extra gold star because their entire premise is that if your life sucks it's because God wants it to, and if your life is awesome it's because God loves you more.
It's probably the least Christlike interpretation of scripture available.
What is the arguments for 'what if it's impossible for someone to learn about Christ' scenario? I was basically told that if it was a baby, it's cool they go to heaven. If they're an adult, they're SOL and going to hell. I was also told why it's important to spread the word and expand the kingdom of heaven and generally bug the hell out of me about it.
It depends on who you ask, at least in my experience. Some will tell you that adults who haven't been introduced to Christ are fucked, and that's why they have to spread the news. Others will tell you that if it was simply a matter of them not having been told they will be viewed as children by God and thus raised to heaven.
Which has to pose an interesting internal quandary for anyone who holds the second view, as in the majority of cases that means telling someone about Christ is actually going to damn them in the end.
There is also the kind notion that if you haven't heard of Christ you'll just end up in nothing for eternity unless you get prayed for enough.
Julius on
0
Options
MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
As for your other questions, I have only two possible answers you can pick from:
1. He has an plan and that was part of it.
2. How the fuck should I know?
What is the arguments for 'what if it's impossible for someone to learn about Christ' scenario? I was basically told that if it was a baby, it's cool they go to heaven. If they're an adult, they're SOL and going to hell. I was also told why it's important to spread the word and expand the kingdom of heaven and generally bug the hell out of me about it.
It depends on who you ask, at least in my experience. Some will tell you that adults who haven't been introduced to Christ are fucked, and that's why they have to spread the news. Others will tell you that if it was simply a matter of them not having been told they will be viewed as children by God and thus raised to heaven.
Which has to pose an interesting internal quandary for anyone who holds the second view, as in the majority of cases that means telling someone about Christ is actually going to damn them in the end.
There's also the claim that everyone on the planet has been given a fair chance to accept Jesus as savior. Doesn't matter if you're born in the jungle, raised by monkeys, and die without ever having met another human being - God gave you a chance at some point, and you were just too much of a sinner to accept his divine gift.
And then there's Calvinism, which basically asserts that everything's already decided, and some people just don't get a chance to go to Heaven because God says so, so fuck 'em.
Calvanism gets an extra gold star because their entire premise is that if your life sucks it's because God wants it to, and if your life is awesome it's because God loves you more.
It's probably the least Christlike interpretation of scripture available.
I'm pretty sure some modern religions do this to justify why some people are born into wealth and others are not.
DoctorArch on
Switch Friend Code: SW-6732-9515-9697
0
Options
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
What is the arguments for 'what if it's impossible for someone to learn about Christ' scenario? I was basically told that if it was a baby, it's cool they go to heaven. If they're an adult, they're SOL and going to hell. I was also told why it's important to spread the word and expand the kingdom of heaven and generally bug the hell out of me about it.
It depends on who you ask, at least in my experience. Some will tell you that adults who haven't been introduced to Christ are fucked, and that's why they have to spread the news. Others will tell you that if it was simply a matter of them not having been told they will be viewed as children by God and thus raised to heaven.
Which has to pose an interesting internal quandary for anyone who holds the second view, as in the majority of cases that means telling someone about Christ is actually going to damn them in the end.
There's also the claim that everyone on the planet has been given a fair chance to accept Jesus as savior. Doesn't matter if you're born in the jungle, raised by monkeys, and die without ever having met another human being - God gave you a chance at some point, and you were just too much of a sinner to accept his divine gift.
And then there's Calvinism, which basically asserts that everything's already decided, and some people just don't get a chance to go to Heaven because God says so, so fuck 'em.
Calvanism gets an extra gold star because their entire premise is that if your life sucks it's because God wants it to, and if your life is awesome it's because God loves you more.
It's probably the least Christlike interpretation of scripture available.
I'm pretty sure some modern religions do this to justify why some people are born into wealth and others are not.
Isnt this line of thinking parallels what the Pharisees where doing and the reason why Jesus have to be born and do his shit?
Prosperity gospel is even worse than Calvinism. There's some overlap between them, but prosperity gospel seems to me to be even more blatant and tasteless and basically ugly.
There is also the kind notion that if you haven't heard of Christ you'll just end up in nothing for eternity unless you get prayed for enough.
Nah. That only works for purgatory. Limbo is where virtuous pagans and infants go go.
Saint Augustine of Hippo held that because of original sin, "such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all. That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will not be involved in condemnation; whereas the apostle says: 'Judgment from one offence to condemnation' (Romans 5:16), and again a little after: 'By the offence of one upon all persons to condemnation' (Romans 5:18)."[7]
The Council of North African bishops, which included Augustine of Hippo, held at Carthage in 418 did not explicitly endorse all aspects of Augustine's stern view about the destiny of infants who die without baptism, but the Latin Fathers of the 5th and 6th centuries did adopt his position, and it became a point of reference for Latin theologians in the Middle Ages.[8]
Posts
I mean, why aren't Marklar in the Bible? Answer me that Mr. Pope!
Actually didn't the Vatican recently say that aliens were A-OK?
Triwizard Drinking Tournament - '09 !Hufflepuff unofficial conscript, '10 !Gryffindor
Nerd blog at culturalgeekgirl.com
It wouldn't surprise me. The Catholic church I know today is surprisingly more foreward thinking thatn the one my father grew up in, props to John Paul II for that I guess. Now, if they'd only get to work on that pedophelia thing . . .
I didn't say now
Obviously the technology needs to exist first
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
People forget that religious people are very good at ignoring the obvious.
Also, it says explicitly that God made the Heavens and the Earth. I thought the whole premise of this thread was that the atheists were supposed to know this stuff.
Triwizard Drinking Tournament - '09 !Hufflepuff unofficial conscript, '10 !Gryffindor
Nerd blog at culturalgeekgirl.com
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Young-Earth Creationists have no problem dismissing billions of years of natural history and an insurmountable amount of evidence. I don't see why one more piece of evidence literally walking up to them and shaking their hand would be a problem.
At any rate, I've never heard the creation story told as a problem for Christianity if aliens are found. I've always heard that there would be problems with the uniqueness of Christ and a planet of people he never saved and so on. Which is what I don't get, since a whole continent that was never visited by Christ was not a problem. I thought that was what Witch_Hunter was talking about.
Edit: Though google is making me think I'm misremembering this as well.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
You might also think that the whole continents unvisited by Christ should be a problem, of which this would only be a yet more dramatic version.
Only if you subscribe to the Pauline idea that belief in Christ's ressurection is the only path to salvation, which Jesus himself didn't seem to (see the parable of the goats and the sheep, for example).
Ah, who am I kidding, we know they would.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
The REAL space race.
I realize there are a plethora of ways to try to get around the "born in Indonesia? Tough luck!" problem. I don't find any particularly convincing, however. But even beyond the salvation problem, you have to wonder: why on Earth did god choose to appear exclusively to some random Semites? Why them and no one else? Why did god have a chosen people? How does that even make any sense?
It's basically further evidence for the notion that this is a particular myth of a particular culture.
Nope, they've already covered their ass. The Vatican said that aliens and Jesus would be okie-dokie-artichokie. Good ol' benny16 is one step ahead of you.
Aside, I'll believe in aliens after I've caught one and cut it open.
Hey, if God had wanted those folks saved, he would've given them their own magical hippie to kill.
You don't find what Jesus Christ said to be a particularly convincing argument on Christianity? Well, that certainly covers a lot of bases.
As for your other questions, I have only two possible answers you can pick from:
1. He has an plan and that was part of it.
2. How the fuck should I know?
Which has to pose an interesting internal quandary for anyone who holds the second view, as in the majority of cases that means telling someone about Christ is actually going to damn them in the end.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
There's also the claim that everyone on the planet has been given a fair chance to accept Jesus as savior. Doesn't matter if you're born in the jungle, raised by monkeys, and die without ever having met another human being - God gave you a chance at some point, and you were just too much of a sinner to accept his divine gift.
And then there's Calvinism, which basically asserts that everything's already decided, and some people just don't get a chance to go to Heaven because God says so, so fuck 'em.
It's probably the least Christlike interpretation of scripture available.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
There is also the kind notion that if you haven't heard of Christ you'll just end up in nothing for eternity unless you get prayed for enough.
Oh, so, same as the problem of evil.
I'm pretty sure some modern religions do this to justify why some people are born into wealth and others are not.
Isnt this line of thinking parallels what the Pharisees where doing and the reason why Jesus have to be born and do his shit?
EDIT: Since I very much doubt anyone actually will, this is probably what it would look like if a D&D poster were to defend the Prosperity Gospel
I like Jonathan Edwards' opinion of children:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QtAUsjbSAiMC&lpg=PA31&dq=infant%20hell%20protestant&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q&f=false