True, but the movies use iconic characters who even non-fans have some knowledge of. And Marvel is especially protective of their brand and their characters.
Even if making the X-Men a bunch of pirates monkeys would lead to a more profitable movie, Marvel wouldn't agree to it. And after the Catwoman movie debacle, I think both Marvel and DC are going to be very hesitant to allow their major characters to be messed with by Hollywood hacks.
Well, yeah, obviously there are limits to how far you can alter a premise before people will go "wait, huh?" And bad concepts will always exist (although, having seen some of Catwoman, they could have stuck to the original origin/concept and the dialogue alone still would have sank the film). But I don't think stuff like fandom and tradition should get in the way of making an interesting book or film. Sometimes subverting those traditions can make us see previously stale franchises in a new light. It's better than just rebooting the same story every 10 years (like Spider-Man is about to do), in my opinion.
Eh. Granted I'm not into comics, or terribly concerned about fictional continuity, but at some point isn't a reboot or retcon going to be warranted for those sorts of stories just to keep them vaguely relevant?
Like is it that important that Captain America has a WWII origin, or could it just be updated to be a different war, say, Vietnam or Desert Storm? Iunno, superheroes (especially in movies) seem to be very fluid in their storytelling. There are fifty million versions of Batman's origin, for example, and they're all valid. The idea is what matters, not the specifics.
In Cap's case, changing his origina story to Vietnam or Desert Storm would involve basically changing decades of continuity that actually makes sense (which is unusual in comics). There are a bunch of other characters who share the same origin. His greatest enemy is a Nazi super-scientist, for example. Changing his origina story would be like retconning Superman's home planet.
You could re-boot the whole story to make Cap hispanic or black, I suppose. But in his case, it would be a pretty blatant example of ethnic pandering.
Why would it be "ethnic pandering?" I can see a really great angle on the story by making the character black - ever heard of the Tuskegee experiments? Yes, it would be a somewhat different character with a different origin - but who cares? They change origin stories all the time. Retelling these stories the same way over and over gets boring. Putting a new spin on classics is fun and artistically valid.
It could be a perfectly valid choice. I hate that your statement implies that characters should be white by default, unless there's a reason for them not to be. It just reinforces the notion that white people and white stories are "normal" but all others are abnormal and defined by their race (while whites are not).
Why would it be "ethnic pandering?" I can see a really great angle on the story by making the character black - ever heard of the Tuskegee experiments? Yes, it would be a somewhat different character with a different origin - but who cares? They change origin stories all the time. Retelling these stories the same way over and over gets boring. Putting a new spin on classics is fun and artistically valid.
It could be a perfectly valid choice. I hate that your statement implies that characters should be white by default, unless there's a reason for them not to be. It just reinforces the notion that white people and white stories are "normal" but all others are abnormal and defined by their race (while whites are not).
In Captain America's case, the character should be Steve Rogers, a white dude, unless there's a reason for him not to be. We have decades of comic book representations of Captain America, and except for a few short periods, Cap's always been Steve Rogers.
Putting aside the craptastic, low-budget versions, it's not like the Captain America story has been filmed so many times as to be stale. The movie next summer is really the first time people will be seeing the character on the big-screen. Maybe Captain America VII can go in a different direction, but I think it's too early to be arguing that we need to explore the story of other guys who've carried the shield.
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Why would it be "ethnic pandering?" I can see a really great angle on the story by making the character black - ever heard of the Tuskegee experiments? Yes, it would be a somewhat different character with a different origin - but who cares? They change origin stories all the time. Retelling these stories the same way over and over gets boring. Putting a new spin on classics is fun and artistically valid.
It could be a perfectly valid choice. I hate that your statement implies that characters should be white by default, unless there's a reason for them not to be. It just reinforces the notion that white people and white stories are "normal" but all others are abnormal and defined by their race (while whites are not).
In Captain America's case, the character should be Steve Rogers, a white dude, unless there's a reason for him not to be. We have decades of comic book representations of Captain America, and except for a few short periods, Cap's always been Steve Rogers.
Putting aside the craptastic, low-budget versions, it's not like the Captain America story has been filmed so many times as to be stale. The movie next summer is really the first time people will be seeing the character on the big-screen. Maybe Captain America VII can go in a different direction, but I think it's too early to be arguing that we need to explore the story of other guys who've carried the shield.
That's different from saying it would be "ethnic pandering" as if it would only happen out of some misguided effort to be PC (because Hollywood makes so many movies with black people). It could happen for entirely legitimate reasons of storytelling. Implying otherwise is wrong.
Why would it be "ethnic pandering?" I can see a really great angle on the story by making the character black - ever heard of the Tuskegee experiments? Yes, it would be a somewhat different character with a different origin - but who cares? They change origin stories all the time. Retelling these stories the same way over and over gets boring. Putting a new spin on classics is fun and artistically valid.
It could be a perfectly valid choice. I hate that your statement implies that characters should be white by default, unless there's a reason for them not to be. It just reinforces the notion that white people and white stories are "normal" but all others are abnormal and defined by their race (while whites are not).
In Captain America's case, the character should be Steve Rogers, a white dude, unless there's a reason for him not to be. We have decades of comic book representations of Captain America, and except for a few short periods, Cap's always been Steve Rogers.
Putting aside the craptastic, low-budget versions, it's not like the Captain America story has been filmed so many times as to be stale. The movie next summer is really the first time people will be seeing the character on the big-screen. Maybe Captain America VII can go in a different direction, but I think it's too early to be arguing that we need to explore the story of other guys who've carried the shield.
That's different from saying it would be "ethnic pandering" as if it would only happen out of some misguided effort to be PC (because Hollywood makes so many movies with black people). It could happen for entirely legitimate reasons of storytelling. Implying otherwise is wrong.
I honestly can't think of any legitimate reason to cast a black dude for Captain America, given the character's back story and 60+ years of comic book history. The only reason someone in Hollywood might choose to do so is to be edgy or to try and make some social point.
The storyline about the 1st black Captain America is interesting, but it's a very, very minor part of the Captain America canon. Having a movie about the Winter Soldier Captain America would make much more sense, but that's still a relatively small part of the character's history.
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Then you'd have to ditch his entire back-story. Cap came about as part of a WWII super-soldier program. The US military was segregated in WWII, and there's no way the government back then was going to pick a non-white guy to be their poster-child.
For fairness sake, I'm assuming if WW2 era America had an experimental super soldier serum with no clue as to potential side effects, a black guy would probably be the first person they'd try it on.
Then you'd have to ditch his entire back-story. Cap came about as part of a WWII super-soldier program. The US military was segregated in WWII, and there's no way the government back then was going to pick a non-white guy to be their poster-child.
For fairness sake, I'm assuming if WW2 era America had an experimental super soldier serum with no clue as to potential side effects, a black guy would probably be the first person they'd try it on.
Well they already used all the black lab rats in the syphilis trials.
Then you'd have to ditch his entire back-story. Cap came about as part of a WWII super-soldier program. The US military was segregated in WWII, and there's no way the government back then was going to pick a non-white guy to be their poster-child.
For fairness sake, I'm assuming if WW2 era America had an experimental super soldier serum with no clue as to potential side effects, a black guy would probably be the first person they'd try it on.
And he gets locked into a cage for the rest of his life. Captain America's strong, but he's still human strong. Boring movie.
It makes...little sense that any Norse god would be black. I don't think this is really a conservative/liberal issue, even if conservatives have a problem with it. I'm not really conservative, but I like works that stick to the format.
But, on the other hand, these mythological beings often do things like turn into horses and impregnate things that are sometimes not other horses. I know, I'm getting my pantheons mixed up here, but you get what I mean; we can't decide that this black God isn't just being black because he feels like it.
This. A lot of Norse may not have even known black people existed so an alien posing as one of their gods would choose a form they'd recognize.
I just see it and feel mild confusion. Like, if they did a movie with the Roman Pantheon and made Neptune an Asian. It's like....why? Does this guy just do a good job as neptune, is the casting guy trying to be PC (like making the "whitest of the Aesir" a black guy out of silly spite/ethnic pandering), or did he just blow off the source material?
The latter is what bugs me the most. It didn't bug me that they made the Kingpin a black guy in the Daredevil movie; it pissed me off that they completely blew off the source material and made him a dull thug (Rose for his victims? Wrong villian, dumbasses!) instead of a brilliant criminal mastermind.
widowson nailed it. It's just strange because, yeah, they're supposed to be aliens I guess, but historically it's only the Norse that worshiped them. Shouldn't they all be white? And if the god was black, there'd at least be a reason. For instance, I'd wager the vast majority of African humanoid gods are black. If there are any white ones, you can bet your ass it's noted that the god is white and there's some mythological reason why, like he's the albino sun god or some shit.
It's especially weird because I'm sure there will be no reference to Heimdall's blackness in the movie. Like Heimdall decided to go get some worshippers down in Uganda so he's rollin' as a black guy for a bit. No big deal, just recruiting and trying to garner some trust.
Instead it's going to be like, hey, Odin thought it was weird Heimdall decided to show up as a black guy today but he didn't want to say shit because he might totally look like a racist.
Ultimately I doubt the movie is going to be intellectually important enough for black Heimdall to matter to anyone other than white supremacist groups and confused viewers who probably are only watching for explosions and hammerz.
But to anyone saying it would be fine for a white actor to play Othello in an otherwise unchanged version of the story and without any kind of makeup - that's just silly as fuck, and I'm glad you're not involved in theater or film. Suspension of disbelief has a limit, and the goal is to minimize the need for the audience to think about shit extraneous to the plot. Like white Othello or, just maybe, black Heimdall. I know that if I sat down in a theater to see Thor without knowing about this previously, I'd lean over to my wife when Heimdall popped on screen (breaking the immersion, omg) and be like "wtf, a black Norse god? That's a really goofy casting choice right there." Isn't that the opposite reaction a casting director is looking for?
Then you'd have to ditch his entire back-story. Cap came about as part of a WWII super-soldier program. The US military was segregated in WWII, and there's no way the government back then was going to pick a non-white guy to be their poster-child.
For fairness sake, I'm assuming if WW2 era America had an experimental super soldier serum with no clue as to potential side effects, a black guy would probably be the first person they'd try it on.
Well they already used all the black lab rats in the syphilis trials.
Everybody give this a glance and then realize the tuskegee angle is already covered:
widowson nailed it. It's just strange because, yeah, they're supposed to be aliens I guess, but historically it's only the Norse that worshiped them.
Yeah, historically, but the Marvel version is so far removed from the historical stuff that the only thing that is same anymore is the names. I mean, Odin fought fucking Celestials, gigantic space gods in a giant-space-robot-armor and died. Thor used to be an American dude who turns into a god of thunder by hitting his stick in the ground. Loki is a woman now and fought Doctor Doom in a deadly combat when I last read about him/her. Hercules impersonated Thor for a while, had sex with the leader of the black elves and gave Thor a titty twister. When was the last time you read that in the Eddas?
People really need to stop thinking this as some sort of a direct translation of the Norse myths because again - the only thing that's same is the names.
widowson nailed it. It's just strange because, yeah, they're supposed to be aliens I guess, but historically it's only the Norse that worshiped them.
Yeah, historically, but the Marvel version is so far removed from the historical stuff that the only thing that is same anymore is the names. I mean, Odin fought fucking Celestials, gigantic space gods in a giant-space-robot-armor and died. Thor used to be an American dude who turns into a god of thunder by hitting his stick in the ground. Loki is a woman now and fought Doctor Doom in a deadly combat when I last read about him/her. When was the last time you read that in the Eddas?
And Asgard is now in Oklahoma.
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Is Heimdall black in the Marvel comics? If not then your point is kind of moot. Unless you condone the kind of butchery Hollywood is routinely guilty of when approaching source material.
That aside, in the Marvel universe, did the Asgardians first reveal themselves to the Norse? If so, the "history" is still the same in that the Norse had first contact and presumably were the first to worship the alien Asgardians or whatever the fuck they are.
Heimdall is not black. It's not a racist thing, it's an 'Internally consistent' thing.
Heimdall is a character from Norse mythology whose skin tone and ethnic background play no part whatsoever in the context of his character. He's white because the people who first thought him up were white, and lived in an exclusively white part of the world at that time. Not many Norse had even considered the possibility of non-white people existing, let alone having seen one with their own eyes. Gods of various religions tend to reflect the people who create them, because those people just don't get out much.
This is goosery.
I like that word: Goosery. I'm either a Milton-esque sermon-giver or being extremely silly. Either way, Goosery is a classy way of saying it.
However, I would like to ask about a few films where the reverse could be done:
1) The Color Purple - Now with Albert being played by a white guy! - Is this a 'Color specific' movie where the defining characteristic of someone is their color? Could we set the Color Purple in Egyptian times and being played by Jewish people? Would the impact be the same?
2) Boyz in the Hood - Now, Doughboy is being played by Vanilla Ice.
3) Mortal Kombat - Now, with Raiden being played by a whi... Wait.
The second is much closer to the first, since color is only as integral to the story as the culture makes it and the third is probably a spot on comparison. Basically, my argument is this: Yes, Heimdall being played by a very non-Nordic looking person is silly, just like Christopher Lambert being Raiden is silly. No, it won't destroy the film.
It is silly, however. And you have to admit that it isn't internally consistent, either. Why is he the only black guy in Asgard,
Yes, because we saw EVERY person living in Asgard in that trailer :P
People are blowing this stupid issue way out of proportion.
Exhibit A: Jason And The Argonauts http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0217579/
Even though all the Argonauts were Greeks, Orpheus, a Greek hero singer/lyre player, was portrayed as a mute black guy for some reason.
Now if I, a Greek dude with a profound love for Greek mythology, and hundreds (if not thousands) of people who still actually believe in Dodecatheism (a resurfaced more modern version of the twelve Gods of Olympus religion) didn't have a problem with that, then a bunch of racist hicks who have been living for generations on another continent and are of a different religion altogether, well they shouldn't be throwing such a sissy fit.
Also Heimdall has nine mommies and not in a "Rachel has two mommies +7" kinda way. 9 women straight up gave birth to him at the same time. (Don't ask, I don't know how that happened either). He is also the father of mankind because he fucked our great grandmother or something. (handson creation that).
Honestly, I haven't gone through all the responses so if I repeat anything I beg humble forgiveness. I think most of the people upset with Heimdall being played by a black man aren't upset so much about it not being true to the comic but to the mythology the comics are based off of. Heimdall was often called the "white". Also, in the myth, he was one of the fathers of the Scandinavian peoples which would, at least very strongly, hint that he would looks something like the race he helped provide genetic material to. That all being said I realize that this is a comic book movie and is most certainly not true to the original myths so one shouldn't get too caught up in it. I also think, however, that calling those who are upset by the movie version of a comic book character based off of a clearly white god racist is closeminded and ignorant. It is kind of like if a clearly black folklore character like say John Henry was played by a white man in a movie and people got upset. I very seriously doubt that anyone would call the people upset by such a thing racist and the only real difference is that the people in question are white and thus safe to call racist whenever they get upset by things like this. I hate it when people jump to calling people racist without trying to understand their point of view. It insults those real racists who try so hard to be hateful.
Is Heimdall black in the Marvel comics? If not then your point is kind of moot. Unless you condone the kind of butchery Hollywood is routinely guilty of when approaching source material.
That aside, in the Marvel universe, did the Asgardians first reveal themselves to the Norse? If so, the "history" is still the same in that the Norse had first contact and presumably were the first to worship the alien Asgardians or whatever the fuck they are.
Uhh no, he's not black, but that would be one of the least wierd things to happen in the Thor mythos. All of them are shapeshifters anyway by now so who gives a shit what he is.
The Asgardians have revealed themselves first to the Eternals or something, or the Deviants or the Inhumans or whatever retcon you are going around these days. Sure as hell wasn't the Norse or even humans, even if you don't count all the time travel on account too. It's the fucking Marvel Universe, just stop even trying to tie it into your argument somehow.
Honestly, I haven't gone through all the responses so if I repeat anything I beg humble forgiveness. I think most of the people upset with Heimdall being played by a black man aren't upset so much about it not being true to the comic but to the mythology the comics are based off of. Heimdall was often called the "white". Also, in the myth, he was one of the fathers of the Scandinavian peoples which would, at least very strongly, hint that he would looks something like the race he helped provide genetic material to. That all being said I realize that this is a comic book movie and is most certainly not true to the original myths so one shouldn't get too caught up in it. I also think, however, that calling those who are upset by the movie version of a comic book character based off of a clearly white god racist is closeminded and ignorant. It is kind of like if a clearly black folklore character like say John Henry was played by a white man in a movie and people got upset. I very seriously doubt that anyone would call the people upset by such a thing racist and the only real difference is that the people in question are white and thus safe to call racist whenever they get upset by things like this. I hate it when people jump to calling people racist without trying to understand their point of view. It insults those real racists who try so hard to be hateful.
Yeah, the character is based on Marvel Comics. Not the myth. So your point is utterly moot.
Are you upset over every portrayal of Jesus as a white dude too?
And there is an actual white supremacist group protesting against this thing.
Oh wait, are you actually mixing up "genetics" with the Norse gods? LOKI MOTHERED A GIGANTIC SNAKE, A HALF-SKELETON WOMAN, A HUGE WOLF AND A HORSE WITH EIGHT LEGS. Heimdall himself had NINE MOTHERS. If you think him being black and providing "genetic material" to white people is wierd, you clearly aren't up to your myths or REAL ACTUAL SCIENCE since first people were from Kenya anyway.
In the comics he's not a father of anything, much less the "scandinavian race" (which isn't even a real classification)
edit: Christ this reply gets more wierd further I read it. You realize that John Henry isn't even black in all versions of his story anyway?
you grow up with certain iconic images. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, they are all white. Is it vital to the character that they BE white? No, not really. But for recognizability and maintaining a "brand" it sort of is.
I once got in trouble at best buy because they asked me to design a flyer for a sale and I rotated one of the yellow price tags. Apparently its a big coporate no-no. People need to recognize the tag as is.
So, a black spiderman, or a black batman would come off as a bit strange. Just like the way Halley Berry as catwoman was odd. I didnt see the movie, but right away it was all "oh not THE catwoman, just A catwoman, because catwoman isnt black."
Now, can you evolve these things? Sure. But doing it outside the medium they were originated screams for that same kind of bashing you get when someone makes a shitty video game movie and just ruined any actual content from the videogame itself. If you want a black superman, go ahead, but nobody will take it seriously unless it was first done by DC in comic form. Changes like that need a sort of stamp of authenticity or "cannon" done by the folks that created them in the medium they were created.
Sort of how if Best Buy wants to update their logo to rotate it a bit, they will do so at coporate before they let me do so in a shitty flyer my manager asked me to make...
This is all sort of tangent to the actual topic here though, because this guy who is black isn't someone who has had a brand created around him like the others I mentioned have. So, its not really nearly as big of a deal to make him black.
Yeah, I mean, the way the Norse creation myth goes, I'm not sure it would matter at all what color Heimdall was. Apparently you can make anything out of anything.
you grow up with certain iconic images. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, they are all white. Is it vital to the character that they BE white? No, not really. But for recognizability and maintaining a "brand" it sort of is.
Which is one of the main driving forces of modern white privilege.
HamHamJ on
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"I know that if I sat down in a theater to see Thor without knowing about this whole controversy previously, I'd lean over to my wife when Heimdall popped on screen (breaking the immersion, omg) and be like "wtf, a black Norse god? That's a really goofy casting choice right there." Isn't that the opposite reaction a casting director is looking for?"
I thought the entire goal of a casting director was to pick someone appropriate for the role - someone that is going to be as indecipherable from the character as possible. Odds are if I even see this movie it's going to be on Starz or something a year and a half after it comes out, but that's largely because I always thought Thor was a crappy superhero. That aside, if I was some random dude seeing this with even a passing knowledge of Norse mythology, I'd be caught off guard by black Heimdall, which again, is the opposite reaction a casting director should be going for. Of course, the problem might be in assuming that a random dude would have any grasp whatsoever of ANY sort of mythology, let alone Norse.
Anyway, it's just a weird casting decision. It had to be a conscious decision at that, and I'm not sure what the goal was other than maybe getting this exact reaction from people to stir up discussion about what will likely be another mediocre superhero movie. Really what it comes down to is, did they really need to do this? They had to have gone out of their way - I mean, how many black guys do you think showed up for the "Norse god" casting call? How many agents were calling up asking if their black client could play "the white god Heimdall"?
I'll admit, at first, I was kind of pissed off about this. I thought to myself, "If you're going to make one of the Norse gods black, well... thats dumb but okay... but why HEIMDALL?"
Making the only god whose colour was apparently such a big deal that it was commented on directly in the Voluspa*, a black dude, well that feels like they're almost deliberately trolling the mythology.
But then I found out that this movie wasn't actually about Thor, it was about marvel comics Thor.
So as other people have said, basically the source material has already been butchered, so one more lance through its rotting carcass matters not at all.
If you're getting worried about mythological purity in this movie, you're far, far too late.
*"Then Heimdall spoke, whitest of the Æsir,
Like the other Vanir he knew the future well."
I'm just pissed that they're basically raping the already rickety canon of Thor and at this point a black Heimdal is a drop in the bucket.
Much as I'd like to punch you in the 'nads for being one of those people who thinks "any decision that doesn't enshrine heterosexual whiteguydom above all is political correctness run amok", I actually respect your opinion here. Complaining that the movie is a total destruction of the Marvel Thor canon and seeing a black Heimdall as simply one tiny piece of that, rather than THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE EVAR while ignoring everything else - is a genuine problem with the movie adaptation, instead of "omg blackity black black".
mythago on
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I'm just pissed that they're basically raping the already rickety canon of Thor and at this point a black Heimdal is a drop in the bucket.
Much as I'd like to punch you in the 'nads for being one of those people who thinks "any decision that doesn't enshrine heterosexual whiteguydom above all is political correctness run amok", I actually respect your opinion here. Complaining that the movie is a total destruction of the Marvel Thor canon and seeing a black Heimdall as simply one tiny piece of that, rather than THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE EVAR while ignoring everything else - is a genuine problem with the movie adaptation, instead of "omg blackity black black".
Are we saying that this one part is actually a problem, though? Because... is it? I mean, objectively, does this even count as a problem?
Are we saying that this one part is actually a problem, though? Because... is it? I mean, objectively, does this even count as a problem?
If the argument is that, among 3,592,953 contradictions between Movie Thor and Comic Book Thor, one of them is that Heimdall is portrayed as Whitey O'Blonderman in the comics, then I can see the argument as at least being about continuinity. Instead of continuity raised as a bullshit cover for OMG BLACK DUDE.
mythago on
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Are we saying that this one part is actually a problem, though? Because... is it? I mean, objectively, does this even count as a problem?
If the argument is that, among 3,592,953 contradictions between Movie Thor and Comic Book Thor, one of them is that Heimdall is portrayed as Whitey O'Blonderman in the comics, then I can see the argument as at least being about continuinity. Instead of continuity raised as a bullshit cover for OMG BLACK DUDE.
Ok, I catch your drift. You and I are on the same page.
But the bolded is what is actually going on. Like, 99% of it, regardless of what people claim. I'm gonna join the stubborn parade, and stick with this assertion.
Ok, I catch your drift. You and I are on the same page.
But the bolded is what is actually going on. Like, 99% of it, regardless of what people claim. I'm gonna join the stubborn parade, and stick with this assertion.
Oh sure - especially given that the whole controversy really got started because of a hate group sending out a press release.
mythago on
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I liked the Asgardians better when they were gods, not aliens. But seeing the level of shit Harry Potter got from the fundies in this country, I can see how that's not commercially viable for Marvel.
I liked the Asgardians better when they were gods, not aliens. But seeing the level of shit Harry Potter got from the fundies in this country, I can see how that's not commercially viable for Marvel.
The fundies' whining has had just about zero impact on Harry Potter's commercial viability. I find it hard to believe that they would have much more of an impact on Thor. I mean, FFS. You think these people are going to be OK with being told no, now they're aliens WORSHIPPED as false gods, they're not ACTUALLY false gods?
mythago on
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Personally, I can understand why they would make one of the Aesir black, political correct and all that jazz, even if I disagree with the decision.
That said, what does irk me is which Aesir specifically they decided to cast with a black actor. Really, don't you think they could have chosen a different Aesir? One that isn't the "Whitest" of the Aesir? Sure white is likely meant in a metaphorical sense, but even so.
I think they would have done better to cast perhaps Vidar or Njord with a black actor than Heimdall.
Course, if you really get down to it, I get rather annoyed at race changes in movies, be it making a black character white or vice versa. Just to me it seems like disrespecting the source material. It's just like how I was annoyed by The Last Airbender white washing the cast. Like I said, to me it just gives the impression of disrespect to the source material.
It's just like how I was annoyed by The Last Airbender white washing the cast.
Why is it "political correctness" to cast a non-white actor in a role that's (actually or generally perceived as) white, but just mildly annoying to do it the other way around?
mythago on
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I liked the Asgardians better when they were gods, not aliens. But seeing the level of shit Harry Potter got from the fundies in this country, I can see how that's not commercially viable for Marvel.
The fundies' whining has had just about zero impact on Harry Potter's commercial viability. I find it hard to believe that they would have much more of an impact on Thor. I mean, FFS. You think these people are going to be OK with being told no, now they're aliens WORSHIPPED as false gods, they're not ACTUALLY false gods?
Yeah I'm pretty sure Marvel just thinks aliens are cooler. Or some hack needed a twist at some point and went with gods turn out to be aliens because, well, hack.
HamHamJ on
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Well, yeah, obviously there are limits to how far you can alter a premise before people will go "wait, huh?" And bad concepts will always exist (although, having seen some of Catwoman, they could have stuck to the original origin/concept and the dialogue alone still would have sank the film). But I don't think stuff like fandom and tradition should get in the way of making an interesting book or film. Sometimes subverting those traditions can make us see previously stale franchises in a new light. It's better than just rebooting the same story every 10 years (like Spider-Man is about to do), in my opinion.
Why would it be "ethnic pandering?" I can see a really great angle on the story by making the character black - ever heard of the Tuskegee experiments? Yes, it would be a somewhat different character with a different origin - but who cares? They change origin stories all the time. Retelling these stories the same way over and over gets boring. Putting a new spin on classics is fun and artistically valid.
It could be a perfectly valid choice. I hate that your statement implies that characters should be white by default, unless there's a reason for them not to be. It just reinforces the notion that white people and white stories are "normal" but all others are abnormal and defined by their race (while whites are not).
Putting aside the craptastic, low-budget versions, it's not like the Captain America story has been filmed so many times as to be stale. The movie next summer is really the first time people will be seeing the character on the big-screen. Maybe Captain America VII can go in a different direction, but I think it's too early to be arguing that we need to explore the story of other guys who've carried the shield.
Rigorous Scholarship
That's different from saying it would be "ethnic pandering" as if it would only happen out of some misguided effort to be PC (because Hollywood makes so many movies with black people). It could happen for entirely legitimate reasons of storytelling. Implying otherwise is wrong.
The storyline about the 1st black Captain America is interesting, but it's a very, very minor part of the Captain America canon. Having a movie about the Winter Soldier Captain America would make much more sense, but that's still a relatively small part of the character's history.
Rigorous Scholarship
For fairness sake, I'm assuming if WW2 era America had an experimental super soldier serum with no clue as to potential side effects, a black guy would probably be the first person they'd try it on.
Well they already used all the black lab rats in the syphilis trials.
And he gets locked into a cage for the rest of his life. Captain America's strong, but he's still human strong. Boring movie.
This. A lot of Norse may not have even known black people existed so an alien posing as one of their gods would choose a form they'd recognize.
I just see it and feel mild confusion. Like, if they did a movie with the Roman Pantheon and made Neptune an Asian. It's like....why? Does this guy just do a good job as neptune, is the casting guy trying to be PC (like making the "whitest of the Aesir" a black guy out of silly spite/ethnic pandering), or did he just blow off the source material?
The latter is what bugs me the most. It didn't bug me that they made the Kingpin a black guy in the Daredevil movie; it pissed me off that they completely blew off the source material and made him a dull thug (Rose for his victims? Wrong villian, dumbasses!) instead of a brilliant criminal mastermind.
Margaret Thatcher
It's especially weird because I'm sure there will be no reference to Heimdall's blackness in the movie. Like Heimdall decided to go get some worshippers down in Uganda so he's rollin' as a black guy for a bit. No big deal, just recruiting and trying to garner some trust.
Instead it's going to be like, hey, Odin thought it was weird Heimdall decided to show up as a black guy today but he didn't want to say shit because he might totally look like a racist.
Ultimately I doubt the movie is going to be intellectually important enough for black Heimdall to matter to anyone other than white supremacist groups and confused viewers who probably are only watching for explosions and hammerz.
But to anyone saying it would be fine for a white actor to play Othello in an otherwise unchanged version of the story and without any kind of makeup - that's just silly as fuck, and I'm glad you're not involved in theater or film. Suspension of disbelief has a limit, and the goal is to minimize the need for the audience to think about shit extraneous to the plot. Like white Othello or, just maybe, black Heimdall. I know that if I sat down in a theater to see Thor without knowing about this previously, I'd lean over to my wife when Heimdall popped on screen (breaking the immersion, omg) and be like "wtf, a black Norse god? That's a really goofy casting choice right there." Isn't that the opposite reaction a casting director is looking for?
Everybody give this a glance and then realize the tuskegee angle is already covered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Bradley
Yeah, historically, but the Marvel version is so far removed from the historical stuff that the only thing that is same anymore is the names. I mean, Odin fought fucking Celestials, gigantic space gods in a giant-space-robot-armor and died. Thor used to be an American dude who turns into a god of thunder by hitting his stick in the ground. Loki is a woman now and fought Doctor Doom in a deadly combat when I last read about him/her. Hercules impersonated Thor for a while, had sex with the leader of the black elves and gave Thor a titty twister. When was the last time you read that in the Eddas?
People really need to stop thinking this as some sort of a direct translation of the Norse myths because again - the only thing that's same is the names.
Rigorous Scholarship
That aside, in the Marvel universe, did the Asgardians first reveal themselves to the Norse? If so, the "history" is still the same in that the Norse had first contact and presumably were the first to worship the alien Asgardians or whatever the fuck they are.
Yes, because we saw EVERY person living in Asgard in that trailer :P
Exhibit A: Jason And The Argonauts
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0217579/
Even though all the Argonauts were Greeks, Orpheus, a Greek hero singer/lyre player, was portrayed as a mute black guy for some reason.
Now if I, a Greek dude with a profound love for Greek mythology, and hundreds (if not thousands) of people who still actually believe in Dodecatheism (a resurfaced more modern version of the twelve Gods of Olympus religion) didn't have a problem with that, then a bunch of racist hicks who have been living for generations on another continent and are of a different religion altogether, well they shouldn't be throwing such a sissy fit.
So, he'd kinda have to be black in that case?
What do you mean "you people"?
Kidding
He meant nothing by "you people" given that he didn't say "you people."
His "you guys" on the the other hand was probably laced with bigotry.
Uhh no, he's not black, but that would be one of the least wierd things to happen in the Thor mythos. All of them are shapeshifters anyway by now so who gives a shit what he is.
The Asgardians have revealed themselves first to the Eternals or something, or the Deviants or the Inhumans or whatever retcon you are going around these days. Sure as hell wasn't the Norse or even humans, even if you don't count all the time travel on account too. It's the fucking Marvel Universe, just stop even trying to tie it into your argument somehow.
Yeah, the character is based on Marvel Comics. Not the myth. So your point is utterly moot.
Are you upset over every portrayal of Jesus as a white dude too?
And there is an actual white supremacist group protesting against this thing.
Oh wait, are you actually mixing up "genetics" with the Norse gods? LOKI MOTHERED A GIGANTIC SNAKE, A HALF-SKELETON WOMAN, A HUGE WOLF AND A HORSE WITH EIGHT LEGS. Heimdall himself had NINE MOTHERS. If you think him being black and providing "genetic material" to white people is wierd, you clearly aren't up to your myths or REAL ACTUAL SCIENCE since first people were from Kenya anyway.
In the comics he's not a father of anything, much less the "scandinavian race" (which isn't even a real classification)
edit: Christ this reply gets more wierd further I read it. You realize that John Henry isn't even black in all versions of his story anyway?
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you grow up with certain iconic images. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, they are all white. Is it vital to the character that they BE white? No, not really. But for recognizability and maintaining a "brand" it sort of is.
I once got in trouble at best buy because they asked me to design a flyer for a sale and I rotated one of the yellow price tags. Apparently its a big coporate no-no. People need to recognize the tag as is.
So, a black spiderman, or a black batman would come off as a bit strange. Just like the way Halley Berry as catwoman was odd. I didnt see the movie, but right away it was all "oh not THE catwoman, just A catwoman, because catwoman isnt black."
Now, can you evolve these things? Sure. But doing it outside the medium they were originated screams for that same kind of bashing you get when someone makes a shitty video game movie and just ruined any actual content from the videogame itself. If you want a black superman, go ahead, but nobody will take it seriously unless it was first done by DC in comic form. Changes like that need a sort of stamp of authenticity or "cannon" done by the folks that created them in the medium they were created.
Sort of how if Best Buy wants to update their logo to rotate it a bit, they will do so at coporate before they let me do so in a shitty flyer my manager asked me to make...
This is all sort of tangent to the actual topic here though, because this guy who is black isn't someone who has had a brand created around him like the others I mentioned have. So, its not really nearly as big of a deal to make him black.
Which is one of the main driving forces of modern white privilege.
"I know that if I sat down in a theater to see Thor without knowing about this whole controversy previously, I'd lean over to my wife when Heimdall popped on screen (breaking the immersion, omg) and be like "wtf, a black Norse god? That's a really goofy casting choice right there." Isn't that the opposite reaction a casting director is looking for?"
I thought the entire goal of a casting director was to pick someone appropriate for the role - someone that is going to be as indecipherable from the character as possible. Odds are if I even see this movie it's going to be on Starz or something a year and a half after it comes out, but that's largely because I always thought Thor was a crappy superhero. That aside, if I was some random dude seeing this with even a passing knowledge of Norse mythology, I'd be caught off guard by black Heimdall, which again, is the opposite reaction a casting director should be going for. Of course, the problem might be in assuming that a random dude would have any grasp whatsoever of ANY sort of mythology, let alone Norse.
Anyway, it's just a weird casting decision. It had to be a conscious decision at that, and I'm not sure what the goal was other than maybe getting this exact reaction from people to stir up discussion about what will likely be another mediocre superhero movie. Really what it comes down to is, did they really need to do this? They had to have gone out of their way - I mean, how many black guys do you think showed up for the "Norse god" casting call? How many agents were calling up asking if their black client could play "the white god Heimdall"?
Making the only god whose colour was apparently such a big deal that it was commented on directly in the Voluspa*, a black dude, well that feels like they're almost deliberately trolling the mythology.
But then I found out that this movie wasn't actually about Thor, it was about marvel comics Thor.
So as other people have said, basically the source material has already been butchered, so one more lance through its rotting carcass matters not at all.
If you're getting worried about mythological purity in this movie, you're far, far too late.
*"Then Heimdall spoke, whitest of the Æsir,
Like the other Vanir he knew the future well."
Edit:
Just as an aside, dont know about that dude, but this actually does kind of bother me.
Is that true or not?
Shapeshifters now. Pigment is no biggie.
Much as I'd like to punch you in the 'nads for being one of those people who thinks "any decision that doesn't enshrine heterosexual whiteguydom above all is political correctness run amok", I actually respect your opinion here. Complaining that the movie is a total destruction of the Marvel Thor canon and seeing a black Heimdall as simply one tiny piece of that, rather than THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE EVAR while ignoring everything else - is a genuine problem with the movie adaptation, instead of "omg blackity black black".
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Are we saying that this one part is actually a problem, though? Because... is it? I mean, objectively, does this even count as a problem?
If the argument is that, among 3,592,953 contradictions between Movie Thor and Comic Book Thor, one of them is that Heimdall is portrayed as Whitey O'Blonderman in the comics, then I can see the argument as at least being about continuinity. Instead of continuity raised as a bullshit cover for OMG BLACK DUDE.
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Ok, I catch your drift. You and I are on the same page.
But the bolded is what is actually going on. Like, 99% of it, regardless of what people claim. I'm gonna join the stubborn parade, and stick with this assertion.
Oh sure - especially given that the whole controversy really got started because of a hate group sending out a press release.
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The fundies' whining has had just about zero impact on Harry Potter's commercial viability. I find it hard to believe that they would have much more of an impact on Thor. I mean, FFS. You think these people are going to be OK with being told no, now they're aliens WORSHIPPED as false gods, they're not ACTUALLY false gods?
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That said, what does irk me is which Aesir specifically they decided to cast with a black actor. Really, don't you think they could have chosen a different Aesir? One that isn't the "Whitest" of the Aesir? Sure white is likely meant in a metaphorical sense, but even so.
I think they would have done better to cast perhaps Vidar or Njord with a black actor than Heimdall.
Course, if you really get down to it, I get rather annoyed at race changes in movies, be it making a black character white or vice versa. Just to me it seems like disrespecting the source material. It's just like how I was annoyed by The Last Airbender white washing the cast. Like I said, to me it just gives the impression of disrespect to the source material.
Why is it "political correctness" to cast a non-white actor in a role that's (actually or generally perceived as) white, but just mildly annoying to do it the other way around?
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Marvel just thinks aliens are cooler. Or some hack needed a twist at some point and went with gods turn out to be aliens because, well, hack.