So need some help with D&D

iammattpleevee · October 2011

Some people and I are going to start playing. None of us no anything about D&D but someone does have to be the Dungeon Master. So, anyone got a good guide to get an understanding of the game and how to play dungeon master?

MechMantis · October 2011

Read the Player's Handbook first.

No, READ IT.

All of it.

Then the Dungeon Master's Guide. Yes, you heard me. All of it. That should give you an understanding of how the system works, and in the case of the DMG, should give you quite a few hints on actually running a game.

Kainy · October 2011

Some good advice I'd give you (that I've also given a friend of mine I recently prevailed upon to start DMing) is to not take your first campaign too seriously. Mistakes will be made. If you can learn from them, you'll be much, much better off by the time you decide to start another! Obsessing over getting your first campaign really right is understandable, but there's a lot to be said for getting your feet wet, as long as both you and your players understand that it's a learning experience.

Also, MechMantis is triple right. Knowing the official rules backwards and forwards will help things be quick and consistent for your players.

DevoutlyApathetic · October 2011

iammattpleevee wrote:

Some people and I are going to start playing. None of us no anything about D&D but someone does have to be the Dungeon Master. So, anyone got a good guide to get an understanding of the game and how to play dungeon master?

It can be really rough starting out just trying to translate what is in the books into a working game. Some alternatives that might help you:

1) Buy one of the D&D board games. They are very much D&D lite, do not require one person be the DM and have lots of things in common with actual D&D. They work pretty well as "training wheels" for giving you a grounding in the concepts you'll use later.

2) Check out Encounters. I'd guess you might have already done this but even if just for a session or two this could be a big help in getting things to make sense. Having somebody who is trying to explain stuff to you is great.

Bhow · October 2011

Since you said

iammattpleevee wrote:

...None of us no anything about D&D...

I'll also recommend the PA DnD podcasts linked in the OP. I'm guessing your quote isn't entirely accurate, since you have a desire to play, but if you're really at level zero, the podcasts offer a good introduction to the flow of play, in-character versus table talk, and basic rules. They're also really funny!

For DM-specific information, Chris Perkins does a masterful job keeping the players focused, as well.

Darkewolfe · October 2011

MechMantis wrote:

Read the Player's Handbook first.

No, READ IT.

All of it.

Then the Dungeon Master's Guide. Yes, you heard me. All of it. That should give you an understanding of how the system works, and in the case of the DMG, should give you quite a few hints on actually running a game.

Fuck this. This sounds boring. Read what you can. Then start playing. Have some dice. When someone says, "I want to try to swing my sword at the chandelier to try to make it fall on the guards" don't start digging in the book to find the real rules for that. Say, "Ok, roll that d20 and roll higher than an 11 and I'll let you do it."

Don't get caught up in the rules, just start having fun. Rules knowledge comes later.

DevoutlyApathetic · October 2011

Darkewolfe wrote:

MechMantis wrote:

Read the Player's Handbook first.

No, READ IT.

All of it.

Then the Dungeon Master's Guide. Yes, you heard me. All of it. That should give you an understanding of how the system works, and in the case of the DMG, should give you quite a few hints on actually running a game.

Fuck this. This sounds boring. Read what you can. Then start playing. Have some dice. When someone says, "I want to try to swing my sword at the chandelier to try to make it fall on the guards" don't start digging in the book to find the real rules for that. Say, "Ok, roll that d20 and roll higher than an 11 and I'll let you do it."

Don't get caught up in the rules, just start having fun. Rules knowledge comes later.

Either of these approaches are more likely to result in turning you and your players off D&D if followed ardently. Strangely enough simplistic advice doesn't really produce quality results.

Who ever would be the DM should probably have at least an idea about how to resolve basic stuff like combat. To get that you are going to have to do some reading. You do not need to read every page of every class in the PHB though. In general you probably only need to read the stuff about classes people are playing and only so much as you need to help them make characters. You should probably read the entire combat chapter but feel free to skip over stuff that seems super complicated. It is not important that you know exactly how to Bull Rush, if you have an idea of what it is that is the kind of stuff that looking up at the table isn't a big deal with.

The basic D&D unit is an adventure. These contain a setting, non-player characters and some events that when interacted with by players form a story. These are often sold pre-packaged in a "Module" format. Starting with one of these would probably be the least bad way to start completely on your own.

Razorwired · October 2011

Really the only rule you need to always follow is Rule 0: The DM gets final say in things that are iffy. His judgement on this will be "What would be more fun for the group?"

Since every circle of friends has that guy that's a little too competitive someone will try to use a bunch of different feats and junk to break the game. I haven't seen any of these get as bad as the Locate City Bomb or Pun Pun in 4e but I'm sure a few little things are still exploitable if you read the rule to the letter. Whoever DMs will have to be the one to make the call that "Okay, I'll let you do an acrobatics check to slide across the greased floor on a tower shield and snatch the crown up." is players having fun and doing something cool and "I want to tie bottles of wine to my arrows." is dumb.

As someone said before, try the Penny Arcade podcasts from the beginning to see how a group, and in Mike's case, a player, can grow in the game. He wasn't experienced in tabletops and became a really entertaining player with Jim Darkmagic. And his interactions with Perkins as a DM really showcase how you can help out a new player. Half of Jim's cool things were Mike creatively using Mage Hand, a spell not designed for combat but it worked. Conversely when he tried to substitute his low Intimidate with his Arcana check by "making himself magically more imposing" Chris didn't let it fly.

If you've already got an idea on storytelling and how you're going to run the world your dungeon is in, awesome. If not find some people whose writing your group likes and basically rip it off til you find your feet. Not always worksafe but Zak over at http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com is a decent read for a few things. And there are tons of other DMing blogs, not to mention the DM podcasts and articles over at WotC.

And finally, if you wind up being the DM do yourself and your party a favor. Your first adventure should be simple. You all meet in a tavern, the king has a bounty on bad guy, you have an encounter in the woods, raid the bandit camp, collect loot. If you guys like how the campaign goes, then you can get into sprawling worlds, unexplained mysterious magical junk, warring nations, and princesses that may or may not be the Dread Witch Celia. Your first session or two you're probably going to be reviewing a rule every five minutes. Doing that and trying to keep 8 lost kings straight in your head as you line up their skull in chronological order of their reign might be a little overwhelming.

rucdoc · October 2011

Always expect your players to completely ignore everything your doing and go off in their own direction. This can be both a good and a bad thing, bad if you spent two weeks constructing a detailed story and path work for them to follow. good if you built your story and path with flexability, so that should the group randomlly decide to go to the left instead of the right it doesn't screw your story

Athenor · October 2011

My first rpg was D&D, as was many people's, but I was actually school in the ways of Werewolf, L5R, and other storyteller-based games.

My best advice is this: Have a story. You need to have something compelling happen to keep people's interest, after all. As much as everyone talks about games like WoW and Diablo being giant loot gathering experiences (AND THEY ARE), they still have a basic narrative that allows the player to fill in their own story. Some people go for this, some people ignore it, but it is still there.

With that said...

1) The GM is not the only storyteller. Neither are the players. It is a team effort.
2) Die Hard, Terminator, Rocky, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat.. these are all stories. No one says your story has to be Tolkien in quality, it just needs to be entertaining.
3) Players will go out of their way to ruin a GM's story just as quickly as they'll ruin everything else a player does. Be flexible.
4) Start light. I know it's been said, but I can't stress this enough. When I start a game it is generally a very basic meetup, or some way for the players to get introduced. I tend to sprinkle in a ton of "hooks" and see which ones the players bite on, and go from there. The basic Shadowrun game (my game of choice) is called "Food Fight," which just involves a gang robbing a Kwik-E-Mart like place.
5) Engage, engage, engage. Make sure everyone has a place at the table, and no one takes center stage. This is an artform that will take forever to learn.

Now, for more advanced rules, I go by two tried and true standards:
1) Know the rules better than the players. In this group it shouldn't be a huge deal, but it goes a long way towards resolving powergamer issues and generally getting the most out of the crunch, so you can focus on the fluff. Even if you choose to ignore most of it, or simplify it, just make sure you know the basics.
2) Learn the art of saying "Yes, and..." instead of "No, but." This is a wonderful improv lesson I learned a long time ago, then had articulated on a really, REALLY good gaming podcast. Basically, instead of telling someone that they can't do something, tell them yes... and then play out the consequences, tweak it, twist it to your needs. I'll once again reference Shadowrun, where everything has consequences. EVERYTHING. If you feel like being a dick in that game, you can have the law down on the players so fast that they'll be splatters on the pavement as soon as they wake up. That's no fun for most players, though, so I instead let them have just enough rope to hang themselves with, then let them play out the consequences.

Above all, though? Remember that everyone is there to have fun. The players entertain the GM, the GM entertains the players, and everyone gets along. Once you do that, the dice and the engines can just fade away into the background.

Good luck, whichever side of the screen you end up on! Find dice you like and keep them from getting cursed!

PMAvers · October 2011

Athenor wrote:

The basic Shadowrun game (my game of choice) is called "Food Fight," which just involves a gang robbing a Kwik-E-Mart like place.

God, I love Food Fight. My second-favorite adventure of all time, if just because of the beautiful mess the players make of that store.

(The first is still, and shall ever be, Unknown Armies' "Jailbreak.")

Athenor · October 2011

I should ressurect my old Shadowrun thread from the first day of this board.

Something else that's really helpful, especially for new GMs, is to look at examples of how a game runs both story-wise and out of game. PA's excellent podcasts fall into this category, but they aren't the only ones. Check out the forum threads here to see how games work (although play by post has a different feel than in-person) and watch how the story weaves with the rules.

The newly released Shadowrun "Runner's Toolkit" includes a book that I wish I had when I was younger. ... And no, I'm really not trying to pimp my game of choice! *ahem* -- Anyways, It has a book called "Anatomy of a Shadowrun." On one side is the narrative of the game, showing how the players go through all the stages of an adventure. On the other side is the tabletop discussion, rolls, and that kind of thing. It gives you a chance to see how the story plays out. Most gaming books worth their salt these days will include at least a few pages like that, explaining the in-game actions of rolls and rules, and the really good ones will even include an extended scene in that style.

It's awesome to see a new gaming group start up fresh, as there are no preconceived notions or biases. On the other hand, having someone with experience in the group can help shape and assist in the process. Again, two schools of thought.

Also, pretty much any GM I've ever run into loves telling stories of games, campaigns, mistakes, successes, and lessons learned. It's part of being a GM -- we're storytellers!

(Note: If you aren't going to be a GM we still like talking about this kind of thing.)

Vanguard · October 2011

I would read the sections on Combat, Skills, and Magic from the PHB. You don't need to understand everything, but that is where the bulk of the mechanics are. As far as the DMG goes, it's a lot to take in if you can't connect it to any in-game experiences. I would read the general tips and try and create a story or two based on that. One very important tip: have a map of your dungeon, either premade or one you drew yourself. This step will speed up gameplay and allow you to devote more time to engaging the players in the moment.

You should also design your adventure to include lots of different rules. You want there to be combat, skill checks, magic, etc to get a sense of the basics.

Lastly, have fun.

Razorwired · October 2011

Athenor wrote:

2) Learn the art of saying "Yes, and..." instead of "No, but." This is a wonderful improv lesson I learned a long time ago, then had articulated on a really, REALLY good gaming podcast. Basically, instead of telling someone that they can't do something, tell them yes... and then play out the consequences, tweak it, twist it to your needs. I'll once again reference Shadowrun, where everything has consequences. EVERYTHING. If you feel like being a dick in that game, you can have the law down on the players so fast that they'll be splatters on the pavement as soon as they wake up. That's no fun for most players, though, so I instead let them have just enough rope to hang themselves with, then let them play out the consequences.

We actually figured that out with a really good GM and 2nd edition Nobilis. Saying "no" would have been one thing when the party was using their new divine powers to create endless buffets for the hungry, flying castles and throwing parties for influential gods. Then our Imperator(actual god) boss came back and we had let waste overflow, with no mortal government people were being complete assholes, and we were ruining his island paradise. Then we realized he was having a lot more fun letting us hang ourselves by thinking "We're gods now, fuck this shit." After that session crazy miraculous stuff was done by everybody still. But it was being funneled through secret societies, my character making magic artifacts and hiding them in digsites, and I think there was at one point a plan to steal all the whales from the Pacific Ocean was in phase two. But the players were getting good enough about working through agents, erasing evidence and making sure that they were "doing something else" during the stuff that would offend the game's authorities that at that point it was a really good game and not us trying to intentionally derail the GM.

So when your party's Rogue asks if he can try to steal the king's crown in the middle of an audience. Let him, and let him know that if he rolls a 19 or worse it fails. And if he crits everybody in the castle is now freaking out and the guards have locked the room down.

And as everyone has said, be really good about flexibility. That will be your favorite word if you DM. Eventually you will have a session. You will have plotted out an elaborate machine for them to be a few cogs in. And by the time they realize the greater plot they'll wonder if they're still the same rag tag group that met in that tave- what do you mean, "I open my own mead garden with the first dungeon's reward?" In my game it was a brothel but literally that happened. The Bard remembered that the dead merchant's property was still vacant. He then bought it, flipped it, and used the profits to open his own bawdy house. While this looked like retirement it was actually just a ton of new adventure hooks. The Dwarven Fighter became the brewmaster of the Speckled Hen and a rival clan stole his ale recipe. The top three working girls were kidnapped by orcs, and a wizard the party fired used a bunch of Dimension Door spells to reroute every exit back inside the tavern as his revenge.

And finally a time the "Say yes" rule doesn't apply. If you feel your game is full, and one of your players says his friend/girlfriend/boyfriend/cousin wants to play. Say "Not right now, the game's balanced around 4 players." Do not, repeat DO NOT say yes and then kill off the new guy in two minutes. Shitty DMs seem to love this trick and it's never as funny or clever as you think it is. If you don't want a 5th player or don't want to spend half the session explaining how many dice the newbie Hacker rolls to break into the safe let them hang out or even try to add a few minions or something. But don't say "Oh yeah that's okay. BTW your girlfriend gets hit by a drunk driver as soon as she tries to cross the street."

Unless you're playing Tomb of Horrors or Paranoia because you're not supposed to stay alive through those games. Then kill everyone. Kill everyone three times in Paranoia's case.

Athenor · October 2011

I love GM stories. I had a truly awesome GM for my last game of 7th sea. My character was a bastard Eisen, denied his birthright through things beyond his control, and the random fates draw ended with my character being afraid in the dark and auto-failing fear checks.

I played him with a huge chip on his shoulder, never afraid to back down from a fight, and absolutely HATING his homeland and the nobles. All he had to his name was his Zweihander and his drakeneisen helmet. The GM made his sister (written in the backstory and modified by him) into one of the protagonists, and his grandmother, a Vodacce fate witch, into the main protagonist (though we didn't know that until well into the campaign). Ignoring the day when I let real life crap influence my character's plot, over the course of it my char fell in love with another PC, and would literally do anything to protect her. Through that bond she learned to care about people and he learned the difference between courage and brashness.

Anyways. Final battle comes. My character is scared shitless, but has reached the point where he still does what he must, even facing his impeding death as they are on an island in the 7th sea. Sacrificing himself, he dives after his grandma to deal her the final blow.. and then spares her, I think. I can't remember. The point is he saw shit he's not supposed to (and I'm not spoiling), and could never go back - he was presumed dead by his crew. His love got to come with, as she had seen more than she should have as well, and had grown too. See, that particular player bought Mole... and was a GM plant from day FUCKING 0. And we never knew until 3 sessions before the end, and my character didn't know in-game until the last line of the epilogue. But it was the love that developed between the two characters that kept her from killing us, something the GM would have fully allowed to happen.

But hey, that's a group of experienced roleplayers where everyone but 1 person is an English major. God, Yosef was by far my favorite character. I hope someday to run a game that is that epic and awesome.

*ahem* Uhh.. point. Yeah. I've let my players play Drakes in Shadowrun before. No biggie. Their ass is mine, though.

In fact, I have a reputation with my players - I go completely quiet and let them do whatever they want, and they write the story for me. Or so they think.

But I can get them paranoid in about 10 seconds flat. Keeping them there, though...

Actually, that's a good point. Something else that is really useful to learn about is Pacing. There's an EXCELLENT Extra Credits video on it on PATV, that talks about why having a constant crescendo is a bad thing. Again, it's more advanced roleplaying, but it is important to keep it in mind.

Seconded on the extra players thing. I prefer my tables on the bigger side; it helps protect against no-shows. But that's my style. Find your limit and stick to it.

Horseshoe · October 2011

DevoutlyApathetic wrote:

iammattpleevee wrote:

Some people and I are going to start playing. None of us no anything about D&D but someone does have to be the Dungeon Master. So, anyone got a good guide to get an understanding of the game and how to play dungeon master?

It can be really rough starting out just trying to translate what is in the books into a working game. Some alternatives that might help you:

1) Buy one of the D&D board games. They are very much D&D lite, do not require one person be the DM and have lots of things in common with actual D&D. They work pretty well as "training wheels" for giving you a grounding in the concepts you'll use later.

2) Check out Encounters. I'd guess you might have already done this but even if just for a session or two this could be a big help in getting things to make sense. Having somebody who is trying to explain stuff to you is great.

I just want to chime in to say that this is the best advice so far

Especially point #2

Super Namicchi · October 2011

and then, once you've assimilated all of this advice, show up to the game with plenty of beer and snacks

and no matter what happens, if everyone at the table is smiling and laughing, you're doing it correctly

(seriously though, listen to a recording of a game / spectate one to see how it generally proceeds and then just roll some dice and get feedback)

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So need some help with D&D

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