Vulcans can be dicks, as in the case with Sulak. But they don't often enough show Vulcan as they are; striving to be emotionless. Like humans, some vulcans are better at it than others.
I'm surprised more Vulcans aren't villains. Burying emotions to such a degree is a slippery slope to amorality.
I always thought Enterprise did a good job with making vulcans more nuanced
Tons of the Vulcan officials in ENT were portrayed as myopic fundamentalists, and the whole P'Jem thing was a pretty great way to illustrate the problems with vulcan society other series barely touched
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
i.e., Berman was allowed to hate on Vulcans as much as he wanted, but for actual in-story reasons.
Edit: Actually, Worf was awesome from the moment he got his first DS9 episode. I think it must have been part of his contract that he wouldn't be used to "Worf Effect" the monster of the week if he played a role in DS9.
That ending is one of the coldest ice burns in the show. Apparently the actors knew it too, because going off of his face, Martok looks like he isn't sure whether to laugh, or smack him.
I always wondered what Jadzia says to Worf in the bar scene. I don't know Klingon and they never explain it. It sets up their relationship so nicely, with her needling him in an subtle amusing way. Right off the bat you can see the foundation of their relationship being built.
Jadzia was the best Dax and losing her was losing the majority of none-farce humor in the show(indeed the franchise).
What she said was: "Yeah, but I'm a lot better looking than he was."
Vulcans can be dicks, as in the case with Sulak. But they don't often enough show Vulcan as they are; striving to be emotionless. Like humans, some vulcans are better at it than others.
I'm surprised more Vulcans aren't villains. Burying emotions to such a degree is a slippery slope to amorality.
I always thought Enterprise did a good job with making vulcans more nuanced
Tons of the Vulcan officials in ENT were portrayed as myopic fundamentalists, and the whole P'Jem thing was a pretty great way to illustrate the problems with vulcan society other series barely touched
That was what I liked, too. It made Vulcans unique from every other tv series.
Vulcans can be dicks, as in the case with Sulak. But they don't often enough show Vulcan as they are; striving to be emotionless. Like humans, some vulcans are better at it than others.
I'm surprised more Vulcans aren't villains. Burying emotions to such a degree is a slippery slope to amorality.
Vulcans aren't just humans who suppress their emotions. Amoral to you may be irrelevant to them.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
Vulcans can be dicks, as in the case with Sulak. But they don't often enough show Vulcan as they are; striving to be emotionless. Like humans, some vulcans are better at it than others.
I'm surprised more Vulcans aren't villains. Burying emotions to such a degree is a slippery slope to amorality.
Vulcans aren't just humans who suppress their emotions. Amoral to you may be irrelevant to them.
From what I've seen of Vulcans they are closer to humans then they think. Many humanoid aliens are, in fact. Amorality is bad no matter who does it, any Vulcan character going down that path is on the slippery slope to getting phasered by Starfleet.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
Either way ENT is a powerful parable about the importance of good human writers.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
Either way ENT is a powerful parable about the importance of good human writers.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
Either way ENT is a powerful parable about the importance of good human writers.
That's Voyager, not Enterprise.
I really do want to emphasize that the final season of Enterprise really does turn the show around substantially. Personalities develop. Fun is had. Meaningful stories are told with a bare minimum of shmaltz, cliche or contrivance. The only downside is that you could tell the writers just flat-out didn't know what to do with the chemistry of the existing cast, and so each new story arc introduces some much more interesting outsider to catalyze the action.
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
Either way ENT is a powerful parable about the importance of good human writers.
Vulcans can be dicks, as in the case with Sulak. But they don't often enough show Vulcan as they are; striving to be emotionless. Like humans, some vulcans are better at it than others.
I'm surprised more Vulcans aren't villains. Burying emotions to such a degree is a slippery slope to amorality.
Vulcans aren't just humans who suppress their emotions. Amoral to you may be irrelevant to them.
From what I've seen of Vulcans they are closer to humans then they think. Many humanoid aliens are, in fact. Amorality is bad no matter who does it, any Vulcan character going down that path is on the slippery slope to getting phasered by Starfleet.
Amorality is bad to you, as a human(a view that arguably isn't even universally shared). The klingons have a very different culture and acceptance of death and it clashes with federation/human values on numerous occasions.
Vulcans seem close to humans because humans write this stuff, it's exceedingly difficult to write a truly alien culture. However, the implication is made time and again in Star Trek that there are many alien cultures with vastly differing perspectives. Starfleet doesn't simply phaser them for being different.
Vulcans can be dicks, as in the case with Sulak. But they don't often enough show Vulcan as they are; striving to be emotionless. Like humans, some vulcans are better at it than others.
I'm surprised more Vulcans aren't villains. Burying emotions to such a degree is a slippery slope to amorality.
Vulcans aren't just humans who suppress their emotions. Amoral to you may be irrelevant to them.
From what I've seen of Vulcans they are closer to humans then they think. Many humanoid aliens are, in fact. Amorality is bad no matter who does it, any Vulcan character going down that path is on the slippery slope to getting phasered by Starfleet.
Amorality is bad to you, as a human(a view that arguably isn't even universally shared).
Amoral humans don't tend to be nice people. They're generally fucking over anyone they can for their own agenda's.
The klingons have a very different culture and acceptance of death and it clashes with federation/human values on numerous occasions.
Yes, they're a culture that's extremely messed up. They make Vulcans look normal. It isn't an accident that the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been at war with each other. Same with the Romulan Star Empire. Being different with morality is no excuse for killing superiors for promotions. There's a reason that kinda shit is seen as barbaric.
Vulcans seem close to humans because humans write this stuff, it's exceedingly difficult to write a truly alien culture.
I know, which is why the implication that they're too alien for humans to understand is
However, the implication is made time and again in Star Trek that there are many alien cultures with vastly differing perspectives. Starfleet doesn't simply phaser them for being different.
They phaser plenty of races for being "different" whenever they morally clash.
They're a warrior race that prides itself on a strict sense of honor. Of course, there are a few who stray like any culture.. but still.
Warrior cultures tend to be shitty places unless you're a great and successful warrior. Social darwinism really pisses me off. It's not like Trek doesn't occasionally use this to show the Klingon's being uncivilized bastards to the audience.
Not our place to judge them - as long as they don't start trying to impose their will or culture on us. Or try to, y'know, slaughter us. Then it's on.
Because humans aren't the be-all and end-all of the universe? Because there are many races that existed millenia before humans were yet walking erect?
I mean, theoretically of course.
But still... in a theoretical Star Trek universe, it isn't our job to play judge and jury to the rest of the galaxy. That doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves if it comes to that
Because humans aren't the be-all and end-all of the universe? Because there are many races that existed millenia before humans were yet walking erect?
I mean, theoretically of course.
A species being ancient doesn't mean it's any better than humanity. Many ancient races in various media are terrible, Trek's got plenty.
But still... in a theoretical Star Trek universe, it isn't our job to play judge and jury to the rest of the galaxy. That doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves if it comes to that
I'm saying we have the right to judge them, not annihilate their species because they're uncivilized.
gene roddenberry would disagree
live and let live he would say
How is judging incompatible with live & let live? I'm not condoning that the Federation should commit genocide on the Klingon's for their barbarism.
That's not even mentioning all the various races Starfleet messed up because they conflicted with their beliefs when they discovered what was going on.
gene roddenberry would disagree
live and let live he would say
How is judging incompatible with live & let live? I'm not condoning that the Federation should commit genocide on the Klingon's for their barbarism.
That's not even mentioning all the various races Starfleet messed up because they conflicted with their beliefs when they discovered what was going on.
Why don't you explain exactly what you *are* condoning instead of having us play this infantile guessing game?
Judge them, and do what about it? If the answer is "nothing" I'm going to be awfully disappointed.
gene roddenberry would disagree
live and let live he would say
How is judging incompatible with live & let live? I'm not condoning that the Federation should commit genocide on the Klingon's for their barbarism.
That's not even mentioning all the various races Starfleet messed up because they conflicted with their beliefs when they discovered what was going on.
Why don't you explain exactly what you *are* condoning instead of having us play this infantile guessing game?
Judge them, and do what about it? If the answer is "nothing" I'm going to be awfully disappointed.
What else would it be? I've been pretty clear that I think they're a terrible society. I never said they need to be punished for it by the Federation.
On a side note the Federation have occasionally punished races during TOS. If Kirk got wind that your society is a mess, he'll burn it to the ground.
gene roddenberry would disagree
live and let live he would say
How is judging incompatible with live & let live? I'm not condoning that the Federation should commit genocide on the Klingon's for their barbarism.
That's not even mentioning all the various races Starfleet messed up because they conflicted with their beliefs when they discovered what was going on.
Why don't you explain exactly what you *are* condoning instead of having us play this infantile guessing game?
Judge them, and do what about it? If the answer is "nothing" I'm going to be awfully disappointed.
What else would it be? I've been pretty clear that I think they're a terrible society. I never said they need to be punished for it by the Federation.
On a side note the Federation have occasionally punished races during TOS. If Kirk got wind that your society is a mess, he'll burn it to the ground.
How is judging them and taking no action different from not judging them?
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
Either way ENT is a powerful parable about the importance of good human writers.
That's Voyager, not Enterprise.
Metaphorically speaking, Voyager was like the lead-up to the trumpets blowing in the Rapture. Shit's a little off, but not everyone noticed.
Enterprise was the part when the locusts came down and started burrowing into the flesh of the unrepentant, the four horsemen rode out, and giant meteors loaded with plague ravaged the world. Voyager sucked, but it didn't violently kill the franchise as most people know it.
Amoral humans don't tend to be nice people. They're generally fucking over anyone they can for their own agenda's.
This is your perspective, which isn't an absolute. There could quite possibly be humans that do not share this view, especially those who choose an amoral view.
Yes, they're a culture that's extremely messed up. They make Vulcans look normal. It isn't an accident that the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been at war with each other. Same with the Romulan Star Empire. Being different with morality is no excuse for killing superiors for promotions. There's a reason that kinda shit is seen as barbaric.
How is your definition of 'normal' even a thing that should be considered when dealing with an alien race? I don't believe an alien species would really care what you see as normal, nor should they. I also don't think, in the case of star trek, that the federation is looking for some kind of overarching cultural normalization, merely peaceful coexistence. If you think that this implies or demands some kind of singular absolute value of 'normal', I'm not sure what to say. Where would this even come from, and how would a galaxy of different races agree on it? It seems completely unfeasible. Also, Picard and the federation would seem to disagree with you on the klingons as they've not once interfered with the ritual aspects of their culture. They may have reprimanded Worf for stepping outside his duty as an officer, but Picard has knowingly assisted Worf in ceremony he knew could deal with the ritual murders klingons associate with.
They phaser plenty of races for being "different" whenever they morally clash.
Care to name some examples? Even the borg were given a friendly hello at first. It wasn't until they threatened their safety that they fought back, as is almost always the case.
Lucid on
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
gene roddenberry would disagree
live and let live he would say
How is judging incompatible with live & let live? I'm not condoning that the Federation should commit genocide on the Klingon's for their barbarism.
That's not even mentioning all the various races Starfleet messed up because they conflicted with their beliefs when they discovered what was going on.
Why don't you explain exactly what you *are* condoning instead of having us play this infantile guessing game?
Judge them, and do what about it? If the answer is "nothing" I'm going to be awfully disappointed.
What else would it be? I've been pretty clear that I think they're a terrible society. I never said they need to be punished for it by the Federation.
On a side note the Federation have occasionally punished races during TOS. If Kirk got wind that your society is a mess, he'll burn it to the ground.
How is judging them and taking no action different from not judging them?
I disliked Enterprise so intensely that I have trouble considering ANYTHING shown in it as canon - but instead an alternate timeline created by the events in First Contact. So I pretty much disregard anything in that heinous show.
That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
Either way ENT is a powerful parable about the importance of good human writers.
That's Voyager, not Enterprise.
Metaphorically speaking, Voyager was like the lead-up to the trumpets blowing in the Rapture. Shit's a little off, but not everyone noticed.
Enterprise was the part when the locusts came down and started burrowing into the flesh of the unrepentant, the four horsemen rode out, and giant meteors loaded with plague ravaged the world. Voyager sucked, but it didn't violently kill the franchise as most people know it.
They're on a whole different scale of shittiness.
Shit was only a little off with Voyager? They had a psychotic captain whose personality changed on a whim, very little continuity, no consistency, the episode "Threshold", defanged the Borg, worse writing then Enterprise and Neelix.
IMO Enterprise gets more criticism is that Trek ended on their watch. Had it been Voyager that was the last tv series from the original universe that would have gotten the blame. Besides Voyager tainted the brand so much Enterprise had an uphill battle to stay around, making it that much easier to get cancelled. They didn't have the sweet deal Voyager had for 7 seasons to stay on the air, either.
The Berman & Braga's seasons were far from perfect but they had more creativity and life in them then Voyager's entire run. Not to mention the last season which was fantastic. Voyager never had that advantage in quality.
What purpose does moral righteousness serve in an exploratory setting dealing with extraterrestrial life? If anything it would seem to increase the likelihood of hostility and misunderstanding. The federation, even as it is portrayed(non confrontational, etc) still has alien cultures accusing them of acting like they're better than them. I can only imagine how this would turn out if various species were more easily able to interpret or notice open or visible resentment and judgement.
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I always thought Enterprise did a good job with making vulcans more nuanced
Tons of the Vulcan officials in ENT were portrayed as myopic fundamentalists, and the whole P'Jem thing was a pretty great way to illustrate the problems with vulcan society other series barely touched
What she said was: "Yeah, but I'm a lot better looking than he was."
At least according to Memory Alpha.
That was what I liked, too. It made Vulcans unique from every other tv series.
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That's silly. The events of Enterprise are canon. They all took place on the Enterprise-D holodeck one afternoon.
From what I've seen of Vulcans they are closer to humans then they think. Many humanoid aliens are, in fact. Amorality is bad no matter who does it, any Vulcan character going down that path is on the slippery slope to getting phasered by Starfleet.
See I thought it was just supposed to be that last episode, not the whole series.
You're correct.
It should be the whole series.
Except, given that the Holodeck can create life, one would hope it would create a half-decent show and not the piece of shit that was Enterprise.
Either way ENT is a powerful parable about the importance of good human writers.
That's Voyager, not Enterprise.
I really do want to emphasize that the final season of Enterprise really does turn the show around substantially. Personalities develop. Fun is had. Meaningful stories are told with a bare minimum of shmaltz, cliche or contrivance. The only downside is that you could tell the writers just flat-out didn't know what to do with the chemistry of the existing cast, and so each new story arc introduces some much more interesting outsider to catalyze the action.
It's both.
Vulcans seem close to humans because humans write this stuff, it's exceedingly difficult to write a truly alien culture. However, the implication is made time and again in Star Trek that there are many alien cultures with vastly differing perspectives. Starfleet doesn't simply phaser them for being different.
Amoral humans don't tend to be nice people. They're generally fucking over anyone they can for their own agenda's.
Yes, they're a culture that's extremely messed up. They make Vulcans look normal. It isn't an accident that the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been at war with each other. Same with the Romulan Star Empire. Being different with morality is no excuse for killing superiors for promotions. There's a reason that kinda shit is seen as barbaric.
I know, which is why the implication that they're too alien for humans to understand is
They phaser plenty of races for being "different" whenever they morally clash.
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ie - being insufficiently Klingon
The reason doesn't matter, the fact they do it at all*, is barbaric.
* and in so many situations
Not our place to judge them - as long as they don't start trying to impose their will or culture on us. Or try to, y'know, slaughter us. Then it's on.
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Warrior cultures tend to be shitty places unless you're a great and successful warrior. Social darwinism really pisses me off. It's not like Trek doesn't occasionally use this to show the Klingon's being uncivilized bastards to the audience.
How is not our place to judge them?
I mean, theoretically of course.
But still... in a theoretical Star Trek universe, it isn't our job to play judge and jury to the rest of the galaxy. That doesn't mean we can't defend ourselves if it comes to that
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A species being ancient doesn't mean it's any better than humanity. Many ancient races in various media are terrible, Trek's got plenty.
I'm saying we have the right to judge them, not annihilate their species because they're uncivilized.
live and let live he would say
How is judging incompatible with live & let live? I'm not condoning that the Federation should commit genocide on the Klingon's for their barbarism.
That's not even mentioning all the various races Starfleet messed up because they conflicted with their beliefs when they discovered what was going on.
Judge them, and do what about it? If the answer is "nothing" I'm going to be awfully disappointed.
What else would it be? I've been pretty clear that I think they're a terrible society. I never said they need to be punished for it by the Federation.
On a side note the Federation have occasionally punished races during TOS. If Kirk got wind that your society is a mess, he'll burn it to the ground.
Metaphorically speaking, Voyager was like the lead-up to the trumpets blowing in the Rapture. Shit's a little off, but not everyone noticed.
Enterprise was the part when the locusts came down and started burrowing into the flesh of the unrepentant, the four horsemen rode out, and giant meteors loaded with plague ravaged the world. Voyager sucked, but it didn't violently kill the franchise as most people know it.
They're on a whole different scale of shittiness.
Enterprise only aspires to such things.
Afterwards he had his sapient status revoked
How is your definition of 'normal' even a thing that should be considered when dealing with an alien race? I don't believe an alien species would really care what you see as normal, nor should they. I also don't think, in the case of star trek, that the federation is looking for some kind of overarching cultural normalization, merely peaceful coexistence. If you think that this implies or demands some kind of singular absolute value of 'normal', I'm not sure what to say. Where would this even come from, and how would a galaxy of different races agree on it? It seems completely unfeasible. Also, Picard and the federation would seem to disagree with you on the klingons as they've not once interfered with the ritual aspects of their culture. They may have reprimanded Worf for stepping outside his duty as an officer, but Picard has knowingly assisted Worf in ceremony he knew could deal with the ritual murders klingons associate with.
Care to name some examples? Even the borg were given a friendly hello at first. It wasn't until they threatened their safety that they fought back, as is almost always the case.
The others scrubbing the planet conduits agreed he deserved it.
Except for the fourth book. That was pretty tight.
But the ending was shit. What were you thinking, unit 314972?
It doesn't involve genocide.
Shit was only a little off with Voyager? They had a psychotic captain whose personality changed on a whim, very little continuity, no consistency, the episode "Threshold", defanged the Borg, worse writing then Enterprise and Neelix.
IMO Enterprise gets more criticism is that Trek ended on their watch. Had it been Voyager that was the last tv series from the original universe that would have gotten the blame. Besides Voyager tainted the brand so much Enterprise had an uphill battle to stay around, making it that much easier to get cancelled. They didn't have the sweet deal Voyager had for 7 seasons to stay on the air, either.
The Berman & Braga's seasons were far from perfect but they had more creativity and life in them then Voyager's entire run. Not to mention the last season which was fantastic. Voyager never had that advantage in quality.
Action causes violence, though.