what stops a person from promising to do something on kickstarter
and then not doing it and taking all the money
Fraud charges?
there's no legal obligation to deliver, though. afaik
like, i get kickstarter funds, blow through all my cash on "development" or whatever. It's all in the name of bringing my project together, but it goes towards my "office" and ramen noodles and whatnot
as long as i can prove that that cash went towards my project in some fashion, i skirt fraud charges
Yes there is a legal obligation to deliver. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. It's the same standard accountability issues for any other funding source.
No there isnt!
If my idea doesn't work and my 30 grand or whatever isn't sufficient and I don't deliver, I haven't necessarily committed fraud.
I'll be a bit clearer. There is a legal obligation to make a good faith attempt to deliver a product for market. The way this works is a bit different then angel funding since there isn't an exchange of ownership, or the much more complicated contracts in place that come with angel funding or VC funding. It would make the civil fraud lawsuit complicated. But the criminal side is pretty straight forward. If you don't make a good faith effort to attempt to bring the product to market, you're gonna run afoul of criminal fraud laws.
what stops a person from promising to do something on kickstarter
and then not doing it and taking all the money
I think the way it works is that money only changes hands after the product is released?
So like, maybe the start up company can borrow against the money they have raised in the kickstarter but, until they release the product, they don't actually get the money from kickstarter.
Does that make sense?
Nope, once they exceed their goal and the time ends, everybody pays up.
It's inevitable that there will be a major shitstorm at some point when a major project doesn't deliver (it's happened for a least one small project that I'm familiar with).
Oh, well that's dumb. I wouldn't do it like that.
Having to borrow money after raising funds you can't touch would be an enormous pain in the ass and negate the benefits of Kickstarter.
How would it negate the benefits of kickstarter? It would make the process of securing a loan a lot easier than I imagine it is now, what, with having hundreds of thousands of dollars already put toward your project. Being able to put up kickstarter funds as collateral seems like a good idea to me!
Kickstarter is basically a crowd sourced venture capital firm. Introducing a big stuffy bank into the process complicates and slows down the funding process. Silicon Valley was built because of venture capital firms and leaving risk-averse banks behind. Venture capital is more riskier but it's faster and more beneficial to people and small companies.
I'm honestly not sure how the agreements would work between the bank and kickstarter re: payment on failed projects, but this method maintains all the enthusiasm of the crowd sourced venture capital but provides a layer of protection for the investor. Really, there's no reason that kickstarter couldn't do this itself (although it probably shouldn't) once it gets big enough. I mean, it's pretty clear I put maybe 4 minutes of thought into this idea before posting it, but I do like it, and if Gooey thinks it'll work I'll stick with him!
Psn:wazukki
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
Skyrim adds kinect support
JUST WHAT I WANTED BETHESDA HOW DID YOU KNOW?!
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
Again, Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, there's no returns or exit strategy, it's straight up donations. If you receive a copy of a game for using kickstarter it's a gift, not a purchase.
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TehSlothHit Or MissI Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered Userregular
Again, Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, there's no returns or exit strategy, it's straight up donations. If you receive a copy of a game for using kickstarter it's a gift, not a purchase.
I'm pretty sure this is correct specifically to get around legal issues with investment.
I think that Kickstarter is going to have huge ramifications on the way business works moving forwards, but I really have no idea ultimately of the shape of changes to come.
Like who the hell thought that youtube and twitter would change the world?
I think that Kickstarter is going to have huge ramifications on the way business works moving forwards, but I really have no idea ultimately of the shape of changes to come.
Like who the hell thought that youtube and twitter would change the world?
Youtube moreso than twitter.
The ability to easily share video with anyone in the world is a huge thing.
I'm not sure how much I'd say twitter has changed things? I mean, it's just one of many venues to share text online, it's just a popular one, but if twitter wasn't there it's role could easily be fulfilled by other sites like Facebook.
Again, Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, there's no returns or exit strategy, it's straight up donations. If you receive a copy of a game for using kickstarter it's a gift, not a purchase.
I'm pretty sure this is correct specifically to get around legal issues with investment.
Right, so basically: if your project ultimately ends up shitty and you have to scale back all the features and all the people who donated are pissed but you do end up releasing it, they have no legal recourse. If you just don't do the project and then abscond with the money instead, you will definitely be considered to be committing fraud.
But, on this subject, Kickstarter funds are donations, not actual payment for a service.
Though I'm pretty sure that taking all the money and then just not doing the project would be a con and be punishable by law.
I think Gooey just meant to put my name and typed yours instead. And this sounded like something you'd have ideas about and I was curious to see if you had posted them at some point in the past so I tagged you!
Psn:wazukki
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SarksusATTACK AND DETHRONE GODRegistered Userregular
Again, Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, there's no returns or exit strategy, it's straight up donations. If you receive a copy of a game for using kickstarter it's a gift, not a purchase.
The rewards throws a wrench in this interpretation. You exchange money for something.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I think that Kickstarter is going to have huge ramifications on the way business works moving forwards, but I really have no idea ultimately of the shape of changes to come.
Like who the hell thought that youtube and twitter would change the world?
Youtube moreso than twitter.
The ability to easily share video with anyone in the world is a huge thing.
I'm not sure how much I'd say twitter has changed things? I mean, it's just one of many venues to share text online, it's just a popular one, but if twitter wasn't there it's role could easily be fulfilled by other sites like Facebook.
The things where twitter really shines has to do with transmitting information about world events instantly from actual local people. 24-hour news networks have absolutely no way to keep up, and governments have an incredibly difficult time censoring it.
i think the most revolutionary thing about twitter is te retweeting and hashtag functions make it's method of disseminating information much quicker. It's also kind of a form of crowd sourced quality control because the most interesting information inevitably percolates to the top
The things where twitter really shines has to do with transmitting information about world events instantly from actual local people. 24-hour news networks have absolutely no way to keep up, and governments have an incredibly difficult time censoring it.
Twitter was huge with the arab spring, iirc.
But that really could have been any site, it just happened to be twitter. I just put that more under the internet than twitter. Twitter just falls under social networking sites to me in terms of changing our world and on that list twitter isn't really the standout. I mean, half of what people post on twitter is mirrored to 2-3 other social network sites as they post it.
Argh, it's spelled Tintin, no space, no double capitalization.
you guys, seriously, spell good when talking about Belgian comic book characters!
Thank you.
And yes, Tintin was an amazing movie. Being a fan of the comic books when I was a kid, I loved all the subtle references and scenes taken directly from the books.
I think that Kickstarter is going to have huge ramifications on the way business works moving forwards, but I really have no idea ultimately of the shape of changes to come.
Like who the hell thought that youtube and twitter would change the world?
Youtube moreso than twitter.
The ability to easily share video with anyone in the world is a huge thing.
I'm not sure how much I'd say twitter has changed things? I mean, it's just one of many venues to share text online, it's just a popular one, but if twitter wasn't there it's role could easily be fulfilled by other sites like Facebook.
I think twitter pioneered a lot of the SMS to Internet thing. Really made it a core focus of their bizness, thus allowing many millions more access their service even without a smartphone. This probably played a big role in establishing its global popularity
Psn:wazukki
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
Remember how crappy it was back then? 240p video that loaded slowly. Horrible flash player thing. Flooded with whole TV shows and movies split up into 10 minute segments.
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
if anything, you'd get hit with breach of contract, which doesn't really obligate the other person to perform, just pay remedies (probably the cost of the donations) back. fraud'd be hard to prove because scientor can be easily masked
Again, Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, there's no returns or exit strategy, it's straight up donations. If you receive a copy of a game for using kickstarter it's a gift, not a purchase.
The rewards throws a wrench in this interpretation. You exchange money for something.
Eh, NPR has done this for approximately forever. You make a donation of X amount and get a t-shirt, sweater, mug, whatever. I've always been assured it was legal though... and since somebody as hated as NPR can do it without getting absolutely destroyed for it, I'm sure kickstarter can.
But, on this subject, Kickstarter funds are donations, not actual payment for a service.
Though I'm pretty sure that taking all the money and then just not doing the project would be a con and be punishable by law.
I think Gooey just meant to put my name and typed yours instead. And this sounded like something you'd have ideas about and I was curious to see if you had posted them at some point in the past so I tagged you!
Well I made that thread about IP law but I backed away from that idea because there's a number of big problems with it.
what stops a person from promising to do something on kickstarter
and then not doing it and taking all the money
I think the way it works is that money only changes hands after the product is released?
So like, maybe the start up company can borrow against the money they have raised in the kickstarter but, until they release the product, they don't actually get the money from kickstarter.
Does that make sense?
Nope, once they exceed their goal and the time ends, everybody pays up.
It's inevitable that there will be a major shitstorm at some point when a major project doesn't deliver (it's happened for a least one small project that I'm familiar with).
Oh, well that's dumb. I wouldn't do it like that.
would you have the money change hands after the product is released, then?
Because I hope you see the obvious flaw in that.
I'm assuming the "obvious flaw" is that the company could release a shitty product or something that doesn't deliver on the features promised? And I'm hoping you see that obvious response that kickstarter as a company would have to such an action?
no
the obvious flaw being if they don't fund it until after it is released then it won't have funding to get released
Oh, I've already addressed that!
@gooey I'm not seeing where @winky described his idea!
I'm not seeing where. That they should borrow money, with the money they don't have?
If it fails, there is still zero money to pay down the loan. Bank is not amused.
That's not really true. The bank would be able to take control and liquidate all assets of the failed company. Remember, I proposed this solution specifically to solve the "People starting kickstarter and running off with the money" problem. I think it works.
what assets?
if the company had enough assets to get a big enough loan, they don't need the kickstarter
the cash that people have pleged
a cash secured loan would be super simple. people put up their funds for the KS. the money gets put in a lockbox, KS holds the key. Scary Financial Institution funds the project. If project delivers, people get their stuff, upstart company gets its money, bank gets paid back.
the kicker is that the financial guys do the due dilligence on the upstart (can they actually do this? can they actually do this for this amount of money?) and monitor (are they actually doing it?)
based upon the calculated risk levels of both the bank may lend more/less than what the KS is asking for. if they lend less against the collateral (the cash people have put up) people might actually wind up getting some of their money back instead of getting entirely screwed.
what stops a person from promising to do something on kickstarter
and then not doing it and taking all the money
Fraud charges?
there's no legal obligation to deliver, though. afaik
like, i get kickstarter funds, blow through all my cash on "development" or whatever. It's all in the name of bringing my project together, but it goes towards my "office" and ramen noodles and whatnot
as long as i can prove that that cash went towards my project in some fashion, i skirt fraud charges
Yes there is a legal obligation to deliver. I'm not sure where you got that idea from. It's the same standard accountability issues for any other funding source.
No there isnt!
If my idea doesn't work and my 30 grand or whatever isn't sufficient and I don't deliver, I haven't necessarily committed fraud.
I'll be a bit clearer. There is a legal obligation to make a good faith attempt to deliver a product for market. The way this works is a bit different then angel funding since there isn't an exchange of ownership, or the much more complicated contracts in place that come with angel funding or VC funding. It would make the civil fraud lawsuit complicated. But the criminal side is pretty straight forward. If you don't make a good faith effort to attempt to bring the product to market, you're gonna run afoul of criminal fraud laws.
That's what I'm saying. I know I started talking about straight up fraud, but I'm saying that there is some large project eventually that is going to go belly up even with a good faith effort to deliver. and unless KS has enough private equity backing to just give people their money back they will be up a creek
But, in my experience, a "good faith effort" has a malleable definition
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Mojo_JojoWe are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourseRegistered Userregular
Again, Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, there's no returns or exit strategy, it's straight up donations. If you receive a copy of a game for using kickstarter it's a gift, not a purchase.
It's really not. Indiegogo is straight up donations. Kickstarter has a goal, and you only pay when you hit that goal. Lots of people dislike Kickstarter because they can't understand how it differs from donations.
It's more like patronage, or pre-ordering a product.
Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
But, on this subject, Kickstarter funds are donations, not actual payment for a service.
Though I'm pretty sure that taking all the money and then just not doing the project would be a con and be punishable by law.
I think Gooey just meant to put my name and typed yours instead. And this sounded like something you'd have ideas about and I was curious to see if you had posted them at some point in the past so I tagged you!
Well I made that thread about IP law but I backed away from that idea because there's a number of big problems with it.
I actually remember encouraging you to make that thread! Not like it was years ago or anything, but still...
Twitter was one of many tools of Arab spring uprisings, but they were grounded in actual local geography. There is no shortage of footage of activists rolling their eyes at the phrase "twitter revolution." The whole concept was overblown but logical for everyone on the outside who were following through twitter -- I twitter is the lens, then twitter is going to frame understanding like any lens.
Twitter is an effective text message to anyone and everyone but it doesn't seem intrinsically transformative.
I would definitely place youtube's impact much higher than twitter.
i think the most revolutionary thing about twitter is te retweeting and hashtag functions make it's method of disseminating information much quicker. It's also kind of a form of crowd sourced quality control because the most interesting information inevitably percolates to the top
Yes, this.
Twitter is in such a configuration that it allows a lot of instantaneous communication between unrelated individuals that disseminates incredibly quickly.
I agree, Quizzy, that there's nothing really genius about the construction of Twitter such that it, in itself, is a special development, but it hit that critical point of saturation where it has become the standard. It's like how MySpace and Facebook weren't initially very different in ways that couldn't be easily altered, but Facebook took off and that's why it's such a cultural icon.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
also kickstarter will not survive if it just becomes a vehicle for the vidjagame equivalent of the popular 80's movie reboot
It's been successfully working for a good while before the Doublefine thing. If they are clever they already have their plan for how to deal with the inevitable fuckup.
yeah
like
if i were designing the business model, I'd do it how winky suggested
the way it's set up currently it seems like it's just asking for a royal fuckup
screwups are manageable as long as the projects are cheap - some project for a few grand won't even go to Real Claims Court
but like a project for 2, 3, 4 million bucks? if something like that goes tits up, and KS isn't on it like a bonnet, they are screwed. the negative publicity alone will do them in.
Wazilla's idea is also completely fucked as well. If the money in kickstarter is effectively held in escrow until the product is released, what value would it have as a support to a bank loan?
if it's cash secured it would have really good value, actually. the bank wouldn't take the hit when you don't deliver like when they try to forclose on a house. when you default they just call KS and take their money.
So how is that different? Everybody has still lost their money if Kickstart pay the bank.
Yeah, I'm not getting the difference. How would using the kick starter funds to get a bank loan benefit anyone except the bank?
Twitter was one of many tools of Arab spring uprisings, but they were grounded in actual local geography. There is no shortage of footage of activists rolling their eyes at the phrase "twitter revolution." The whole concept was overblown but logical for everyone on the outside who were following through twitter -- I twitter is the lens, then twitter is going to frame understanding like any lens.
Twitter is an effective text message to anyone and everyone but it doesn't seem intrinsically transformative.
I would definitely place youtube's impact much higher than twitter.
I still don't get Twitter.
Maybe if I could roll it into Pidgin without needing an account or something, but it seems distressingly dissimilar to IRC, which has only ever helped.
Twitter was one of many tools of Arab spring uprisings, but they were grounded in actual local geography. There is no shortage of footage of activists rolling their eyes at the phrase "twitter revolution." The whole concept was overblown but logical for everyone on the outside who were following through twitter -- I twitter is the lens, then twitter is going to frame understanding like any lens.
Twitter is an effective text message to anyone and everyone but it doesn't seem intrinsically transformative.
I would definitely place youtube's impact much higher than twitter.
Again, Kickstarter isn't venture capitalism, there's no returns or exit strategy, it's straight up donations. If you receive a copy of a game for using kickstarter it's a gift, not a purchase.
It's really not. Indiegogo is straight up donations. Kickstarter has a goal, and you only pay when you hit that goal. Lots of people dislike Kickstarter because they can't understand how it differs from donations.
It's more like patronage, or pre-ordering a product.
But I mean, in a purely technical and legal sense, they are donations.
I think that Kickstarter is going to have huge ramifications on the way business works moving forwards, but I really have no idea ultimately of the shape of changes to come.
Like who the hell thought that youtube and twitter would change the world?
Youtube moreso than twitter.
The ability to easily share video with anyone in the world is a huge thing.
I'm not sure how much I'd say twitter has changed things? I mean, it's just one of many venues to share text online, it's just a popular one, but if twitter wasn't there it's role could easily be fulfilled by other sites like Facebook.
I think twitter pioneered a lot of the SMS to Internet thing. Really made it a core focus of their bizness, thus allowing many millions more access their service even without a smartphone. This probably played a big role in establishing its global popularity
The phone thing is a good point -- that whole mode of communication will probably continue to push Internet access in so many markets. Where would Internet access be in parts of Africa without cellphones?
okay so ME3 questions as I get closer to playing it. please don't spoil stuff for me, this is mechanics related
my excess minerals mined in ME2 convert to galactic readiness, right? what is the conversion rate like? i'm thinking i need to get that as high as possible because it usually takes me while to play games and i dont want it to deteriorate on me so i get a bad ending
Maybe if I could roll it into Pidgin without needing an account or something, but it seems distressingly dissimilar to IRC, which has only ever helped.
I suppose "IRC, but you make your own channel and put people in it" is a good description.
Punkbuster is shit. It is worthless, useless shit. Started getting the "punkbuster has kicked you for 0 minutes" error last night. None of the "fixes" work. Trying to play Battlefield 3 is useless now, I can't stay in a match more than 5 minutes.
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I'll be a bit clearer. There is a legal obligation to make a good faith attempt to deliver a product for market. The way this works is a bit different then angel funding since there isn't an exchange of ownership, or the much more complicated contracts in place that come with angel funding or VC funding. It would make the civil fraud lawsuit complicated. But the criminal side is pretty straight forward. If you don't make a good faith effort to attempt to bring the product to market, you're gonna run afoul of criminal fraud laws.
I'm honestly not sure how the agreements would work between the bank and kickstarter re: payment on failed projects, but this method maintains all the enthusiasm of the crowd sourced venture capital but provides a layer of protection for the investor. Really, there's no reason that kickstarter couldn't do this itself (although it probably shouldn't) once it gets big enough. I mean, it's pretty clear I put maybe 4 minutes of thought into this idea before posting it, but I do like it, and if Gooey thinks it'll work I'll stick with him!
JUST WHAT I WANTED BETHESDA HOW DID YOU KNOW?!
I'm pretty sure this is correct specifically to get around legal issues with investment.
twitch.tv/tehsloth
you guys, seriously, spell good when talking about Belgian comic book characters!
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
Like who the hell thought that youtube and twitter would change the world?
Youtube moreso than twitter.
The ability to easily share video with anyone in the world is a huge thing.
I'm not sure how much I'd say twitter has changed things? I mean, it's just one of many venues to share text online, it's just a popular one, but if twitter wasn't there it's role could easily be fulfilled by other sites like Facebook.
Right, so basically: if your project ultimately ends up shitty and you have to scale back all the features and all the people who donated are pissed but you do end up releasing it, they have no legal recourse. If you just don't do the project and then abscond with the money instead, you will definitely be considered to be committing fraud.
That's not really long ago.
I think Gooey just meant to put my name and typed yours instead. And this sounded like something you'd have ideas about and I was curious to see if you had posted them at some point in the past so I tagged you!
The rewards throws a wrench in this interpretation. You exchange money for something.
Yes that was amazing.
It was such a good film.
The things where twitter really shines has to do with transmitting information about world events instantly from actual local people. 24-hour news networks have absolutely no way to keep up, and governments have an incredibly difficult time censoring it.
Twitter was huge with the arab spring, iirc.
But that really could have been any site, it just happened to be twitter. I just put that more under the internet than twitter. Twitter just falls under social networking sites to me in terms of changing our world and on that list twitter isn't really the standout. I mean, half of what people post on twitter is mirrored to 2-3 other social network sites as they post it.
Thank you.
And yes, Tintin was an amazing movie. Being a fan of the comic books when I was a kid, I loved all the subtle references and scenes taken directly from the books.
I think twitter pioneered a lot of the SMS to Internet thing. Really made it a core focus of their bizness, thus allowing many millions more access their service even without a smartphone. This probably played a big role in establishing its global popularity
Remember how crappy it was back then? 240p video that loaded slowly. Horrible flash player thing. Flooded with whole TV shows and movies split up into 10 minute segments.
Eh, NPR has done this for approximately forever. You make a donation of X amount and get a t-shirt, sweater, mug, whatever. I've always been assured it was legal though... and since somebody as hated as NPR can do it without getting absolutely destroyed for it, I'm sure kickstarter can.
Well I made that thread about IP law but I backed away from that idea because there's a number of big problems with it.
the cash that people have pleged
a cash secured loan would be super simple. people put up their funds for the KS. the money gets put in a lockbox, KS holds the key. Scary Financial Institution funds the project. If project delivers, people get their stuff, upstart company gets its money, bank gets paid back.
the kicker is that the financial guys do the due dilligence on the upstart (can they actually do this? can they actually do this for this amount of money?) and monitor (are they actually doing it?)
based upon the calculated risk levels of both the bank may lend more/less than what the KS is asking for. if they lend less against the collateral (the cash people have put up) people might actually wind up getting some of their money back instead of getting entirely screwed.
That's what I'm saying. I know I started talking about straight up fraud, but I'm saying that there is some large project eventually that is going to go belly up even with a good faith effort to deliver. and unless KS has enough private equity backing to just give people their money back they will be up a creek
But, in my experience, a "good faith effort" has a malleable definition
It's really not. Indiegogo is straight up donations. Kickstarter has a goal, and you only pay when you hit that goal. Lots of people dislike Kickstarter because they can't understand how it differs from donations.
It's more like patronage, or pre-ordering a product.
I actually remember encouraging you to make that thread! Not like it was years ago or anything, but still...
Twitter is an effective text message to anyone and everyone but it doesn't seem intrinsically transformative.
I would definitely place youtube's impact much higher than twitter.
So glad I read this before the panel started, otherwise I may have chuckled out loud at exactly the wrong moment.
Yes, this.
Twitter is in such a configuration that it allows a lot of instantaneous communication between unrelated individuals that disseminates incredibly quickly.
I agree, Quizzy, that there's nothing really genius about the construction of Twitter such that it, in itself, is a special development, but it hit that critical point of saturation where it has become the standard. It's like how MySpace and Facebook weren't initially very different in ways that couldn't be easily altered, but Facebook took off and that's why it's such a cultural icon.
Yeah, I'm not getting the difference. How would using the kick starter funds to get a bank loan benefit anyone except the bank?
I still don't get Twitter.
Maybe if I could roll it into Pidgin without needing an account or something, but it seems distressingly dissimilar to IRC, which has only ever helped.
KONY 2012!
But I mean, in a purely technical and legal sense, they are donations.
The phone thing is a good point -- that whole mode of communication will probably continue to push Internet access in so many markets. Where would Internet access be in parts of Africa without cellphones?
I suppose "IRC, but you make your own channel and put people in it" is a good description.
I guess that means I get to spend all day panic checking my email every five minutes.
Stupid emotions.