I don't know if I've ever heard Erikson called anti-climactic before. Heh.
There's also the whole thing where Rhulad had felt betrayed by everyone when Udinass wasn't able to come to him when he was calling for him - the last thing which was helping him retain his sanity was gone.
I don't know if I've ever heard Erikson called anti-climactic before. Heh.
There's also the whole thing where Rhulad had felt betrayed by everyone when Udinass wasn't able to come to him when he was calling for him - the last thing which was helping him retain his sanity was gone.
There's plenty of climactic moments in the books, I just mean major plot resolutions tend to be handled very quickly and unexpectedly, at least so far. I'm not really saying it as a bad thing, as I am really enjoying the series, it just is an observation. I'm meaning things like
how the situation with Apsalar's possession is handled in GotM, It is built up to be one of the major plot points being the entire motivation for why Paran is even in the story up to that point, and it basically resolves itself with a bit of coercion. Other examples would be how Paran got Oponn off his back, basically the majority of the Deadhouse arc in the second book, how Paran and Quick Ben handled the Seer at the end of MoI, the fight with the Malazan fourteenth and the army of the apocalypse in being as they never really even engaged (outside of some skirmishes with Leoman).
I kind of like it. I think it's just a sort of recognition that sometimes stuff doesn't end on a climactic note. Sometimes people die in stupid or unexpected ways.
Sometimes complicated problems are solved easily and easy problems get needlessly complicated.
I should finish the series at some point i personally found toll and dust to be insufferable and dull. He kept dumping all these new arcs into the mix and i couldn't bring myself to give a fuck
Even though it's been a few months I wanted to re-up this discussion thread because I think it's fantastic to read through for anyone reading the serious with questions. Whether they are answers or just opinions people bring great ideas to the table with some of the more obscure occurrences and outcomes in the novels.
That being said, I've finished the main arc and all of ICE's novels through Blood and Bone. I'm nearly finished with Blood and Bone and was wondering what everyones opinion of it was?
Also, random unanswered question I thought of from the end of MOI:
Quick Ben lets the Jag and his sister go to help with the Crippled God right? But they don't ever do anything in the end do they?
Okay, probably the last time for resurrection for this thread until there's some sort of confirmation, but another author has dropped hints that it looks like a Malazan tabletop RPG workbook based off GURPS may be appearing on kickstarter in the near-ish future.
Also, Erikson's next book (not Malazan) is out next week:
I tried to push through Garden of the Moon, but then gave up and went back to the Black Company series.
I feel like this was a good choice.
I mean, do the books get better? Because as is I have a billion characters I don't care about speaking with familiarity about a billion things I don't know about for an endgame I have no idea about. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of stuff in it. The whole apotheosis thing, the Warrens, stuff like that is cool. But it's just loaded with crap like the T'Lan Imasse or whatever it was and titles like High Fist. Which I think is a sex move or a morality path in Jade Empire.
Yes, it gets better. Read Deadhouse Gates, and if you're still not into it, then you can safely put it down. Gardens of the Moon is an odd duck for a variety of reasons. And if you like the Black Company, you should definitely stick with it. They share some similarities.
The first book is arguably rougher than the rest of the series, but there will always be a large cast of characters in the other books so if that is a major sticking point, it won't change. Also, the series seldom holds your hand to explain things outright, you kinda go with it and learn more about things as the books go.
Though on the other hand, the attrition rate in the series is pretty brutal, so its not like you'll be expected to remember every character you meet.
no not really, but there aren't that many race names to remember, and those are really the only ones that have weird punctuation in names. I never really found it all that more difficult then most fantasy series in the creation of a bunch of weird named races/gods/countries/etc.
The books really do just sort of shove you off into the deep end and hope you swim, but if you can work your way through the first book it's a really really great world with some awesome characters in it.
It also does one of my favorite things ever in that no character at all in any books has "plot armor" like most other fantasy series, Erikson doesn't mind killing off anyone at anytime.
I actually think Gardens of the Moon is one of my favorite of the whole series, but only after re-reading them all like 5 times now, so much more makes sense when you know the world and the players on a re-read.
But if your really having trouble getting into Gardens, skip to Deadhouse Gates. There is very little character overlap and a completely different part of the world, so you can jump into it as a starting point just fine.
I guess my problem is that I can see what he's trying to do, narrative and world building wise, but it's just not coming together. Like, okay, for example, A Game of Thrones focuses on the Starks, yeah? It uses them to introduce the world, the setting, etc. They're an entry point. A thread to pull on to get us going. In the Black Company, we have Croaker. He's our viewpoint narrator, and he explain as he goes. In Nine Princes of Amber, Corwin's amnesia allows us to learn along with him about the world and the characters. Gardens of the Moon doesn't really have anything like that, so I'm constantly bewildered and checking the appendices. My trouble with Gardens of the Moon isn't that the ideas are bad, or that the characters are bad, it's just that there's too much of both.
Gardens of the Moon actually keeps the cast relatively small compared to the later novels.
But yeah, there's not really the requisite stupid character who gets everything explained to them - you're forced to swim and piece things together as you go (which ends up being a lot of the fun, honestly). It's probably the most rewarding series for rereads that I've ever read because all that information is packed in there and not spelled out. That style of writing doesn't work for everyone, so maybe it's just not your cup of tea.
The Malazan books mostly rely on multiple viewpoint characters and cover different goings-on as a result. A big payoff tends to be when these threads meet, you often find yourself invested in the narrative moreso because of the converging arcs.
Or sometimes things happen in a slow simmer, to have it come up big time in another book.
None of the series I mentioned had requisite stupid characters.
There's a lot of stuff I like so far, like each mage needing to carve out her/his own warren, the tarot suits, that kind of thing. But I feel as though the book has a lot of bloat to it, and is just kind of meandering about vague landscapes. I still have no idea where Malaza is compared to the continent the campaign is happening on.
I kind of feel like I joined someone's year long DnD campaign as it was underway.
I think part of the bewilderment is that the main character for it Ganoes Paran is also just thrown into a situation way too deep for him way too fast, so your trying to make sense of the world along with him. Not sure if that was exactly Eriksons intention, but I feel it works that way.
Don't worry about trying to remember what each race or magic is and just sort of push along, it begins to make more sense as you get into the book.
I kind of feel like I joined someone's year long DnD campaign as it was underway.
You did.
GURPS, but still.
Anyway, the books are written kinda like they're short stories written out to the length of a book - they're dense in terms of important information, and a lot of stuff that feels extraneous isn't, and you don't realize it until 3 books later.
"Starting a year into someone's DnD campaign" is a pretty perfect description of Gardens of the Moon.
The series turns into something amazing once you catch your bearings, but GotM is an unwelcoming entry point.
I slogged through it, and was impressed enough by what I saw of the world to give Deadhouse Gates a shot, and that book fucking slayed me. It's the one that wins you over, and one of the best entries in the series. I don't think you'd be losing out on much if you read that one before GotM. It would definitely earn your interest.
I'm reasonably certain you could just start with deadhouse gates and not read GoTM till afterwards. They share very few characters. Also the Chain of Dogs is amazing.
Antinumeric on
In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.
There are at least 4 characters of some significance from GotM that show up in Deadhouse Gates, and while their activities are divergent from the Chain of Dogs, it's still pretty significant. You might be a little lost as to what they're doing by missing the first book, but overall I guess it might be worth having to go back to reading Gardens if Deadhouse Gates draws you into the series.
At the end of Deadhouse Gates, I almost threw the book across the room into the wall. I mean what the hell was that.
Here's my biggest problem with the series. Erikson is amazing at writing climactic battles or points of tension which are these amazing epic scenes. The books are worth it for them alone. He, however, is horrible at writing glue plot, that connects all these scenes.
That said, I'm glad I read through them all, it was a good, if insanely world buildy series.
I'm almost through with Assail. It looks like it is Esslemont's last followup to the main series. But now I'm reading that he's agreed to do a prequel trilogy, the first one is called Dancer's Lament.
Anyways, Assail is pretty good. It looks like it will wrap up the storylines for T'lan Imass/Silverfox/Jaghut and the Crimson Guard and their Vow. We'll see though, nothing is settled yet. Also features a lot of Kyle, who has grown on me. And a lot of battles where a handful of protagonists survive against seemingly much larger forces. I like it so far though.
But now I'm reading that he's agreed to do a prequel trilogy, the first one is called Dancer's Lament.
I'm divided between being excited that it's going to be told and disappointment that it's ICE. Not that I mind Esslemont's writing, but I feel like that story would do better with Erikson's style.
Anyway, I'm still back on Blood and Bone (been reading other stuff for a while), but Assail is purchased and in the pile
I think I have some catching up to do! I don't think I've read any of ICE's stuff since... Return of the Crimson Guard, maybe. My memory is very fuzzy today.
While I'm here, really enjoyed the first book of Erikson's new Kharkanas Trilogy.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
The thing about Garden's of the Moon is EVERYONE is thrown into the deep end. Even the high Mages hardly understand how the warrens work. I actually love that aspect of it. My main complaint about the series (which I love but still need to reread so I can finally read the last book) is that as it goes on EVERYONE starts to know everything. By the end, your average Malazan soldier knows more about the politics among the ascendents than the high nages in GoTM did which seems off to me.
The thing about Garden's of the Moon is EVERYONE is thrown into the deep end. Even the high Mages hardly understand how the warrens work. I actually love that aspect of it. My main complaint about the series (which I love but still need to reread so I can finally read the last book) is that as it goes on EVERYONE starts to know everything. By the end, your average Malazan soldier knows more about the politics among the ascendents than the high nages in GoTM did which seems off to me.
It's a little sloppy, but it didn't really bother me. Better than not having that information available, I think. Lord knows I can't keep track of everything that's going on in the series, the reminders are very nice.
The thing about Garden's of the Moon is EVERYONE is thrown into the deep end. Even the high Mages hardly understand how the warrens work. I actually love that aspect of it. My main complaint about the series (which I love but still need to reread so I can finally read the last book) is that as it goes on EVERYONE starts to know everything. By the end, your average Malazan soldier knows more about the politics among the ascendents than the high nages in GoTM did which seems off to me.
It's a little sloppy, but it didn't really bother me. Better than not having that information available, I think. Lord knows I can't keep track of everything that's going on in the series, the reminders are very nice.
I just chalk anything like this up as Shadowthrone playing the long con and setting this up ages ago.
He didn't need people in GotM times to know this kind of shit but he seeded it so that they would know later! :P
I don't intend on reading the book any time soon so I read the secret online.
The Crimson Guard are an off-shoot of the T'lan ritual somehow? Can someone explain this further. The Crimson Guards aren't Imass are they? Were they a group of "humans" who conducted another ritual?
I don't intend on reading the book any time soon so I read the secret online.
The Crimson Guard are an off-shoot of the T'lan ritual somehow? Can someone explain this further. The Crimson Guards aren't Imass are they? Were they a group of "humans" who conducted another ritual?
Somehow their swearing into the the Vow sort of tapped into Tellann, so they are basically a new group of T'lan Imass. The other Imass start calling them the Red Clan. This is why the Avowed are so dammed tough.
I don't intend on reading the book any time soon so I read the secret online.
The Crimson Guard are an off-shoot of the T'lan ritual somehow? Can someone explain this further. The Crimson Guards aren't Imass are they? Were they a group of "humans" who conducted another ritual?
Somehow their swearing into the the Vow sort of tapped into Tellann, so they are basically a new group of T'lan Imass. The other Imass start calling them the Red Clan. This is why the Avowed are so dammed tough.
The oath that they swore to get revenge on the Malazan empire was also a ritual tapping into Tellann to give them increased life/strength. So it was basically the exact same thing that the Imass had done in order to try to exterminate the Jaghut.
I don't intend on reading the book any time soon so I read the secret online.
The Crimson Guard are an off-shoot of the T'lan ritual somehow? Can someone explain this further. The Crimson Guards aren't Imass are they? Were they a group of "humans" who conducted another ritual?
Somehow their swearing into the the Vow sort of tapped into Tellann, so they are basically a new group of T'lan Imass. The other Imass start calling them the Red Clan. This is why the Avowed are so dammed tough.
The oath that they swore to get revenge on the Malazan empire was also a ritual tapping into Tellann to give them increased life/strength. So it was basically the exact same thing that the Imass had done in order to try to exterminate the Jaghut.
I'm a terrible person about reading spoilers, but it doesn't ruin anything for me, so whatever.
Assail spoilers, I guess
I.....kinda always assumed it was that? Like, I assumed that it was the same SORT of ritual, if not the same thing. So I guess the Imass accepting them is one thing, but yeah, the revelation of it being the same as the ritual is kinda like a "oh, okay" moment for me
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There's plenty of climactic moments in the books, I just mean major plot resolutions tend to be handled very quickly and unexpectedly, at least so far. I'm not really saying it as a bad thing, as I am really enjoying the series, it just is an observation. I'm meaning things like
Sometimes complicated problems are solved easily and easy problems get needlessly complicated.
ICE's latest novel, Blood and Bone, was great. If anyone hasn't read it, or on the fence, I definitely recommend it.
That being said, I've finished the main arc and all of ICE's novels through Blood and Bone. I'm nearly finished with Blood and Bone and was wondering what everyones opinion of it was?
Also, random unanswered question I thought of from the end of MOI:
Burn waking up is pretty much the end of the world so the Seer was basically in a support role to stretch the clock.
Also, Erikson's next book (not Malazan) is out next week:
http://www.amazon.com/Willful-Child-Steven-Erikson/dp/0765374897
Sci-fi comedy rooted in Erikson's childhood fandom of the original Star Trek. It'll be interesting to see how that works out.
e: Sorry, worldbook, not workbook.
Who do I give all the money to?
I feel like this was a good choice.
I mean, do the books get better? Because as is I have a billion characters I don't care about speaking with familiarity about a billion things I don't know about for an endgame I have no idea about. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of stuff in it. The whole apotheosis thing, the Warrens, stuff like that is cool. But it's just loaded with crap like the T'Lan Imasse or whatever it was and titles like High Fist. Which I think is a sex move or a morality path in Jade Empire.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Though on the other hand, the attrition rate in the series is pretty brutal, so its not like you'll be expected to remember every character you meet.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
no not really, but there aren't that many race names to remember, and those are really the only ones that have weird punctuation in names. I never really found it all that more difficult then most fantasy series in the creation of a bunch of weird named races/gods/countries/etc.
The books really do just sort of shove you off into the deep end and hope you swim, but if you can work your way through the first book it's a really really great world with some awesome characters in it.
It also does one of my favorite things ever in that no character at all in any books has "plot armor" like most other fantasy series, Erikson doesn't mind killing off anyone at anytime.
I actually think Gardens of the Moon is one of my favorite of the whole series, but only after re-reading them all like 5 times now, so much more makes sense when you know the world and the players on a re-read.
But if your really having trouble getting into Gardens, skip to Deadhouse Gates. There is very little character overlap and a completely different part of the world, so you can jump into it as a starting point just fine.
I might give it another shot later on.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
But yeah, there's not really the requisite stupid character who gets everything explained to them - you're forced to swim and piece things together as you go (which ends up being a lot of the fun, honestly). It's probably the most rewarding series for rereads that I've ever read because all that information is packed in there and not spelled out. That style of writing doesn't work for everyone, so maybe it's just not your cup of tea.
Or sometimes things happen in a slow simmer, to have it come up big time in another book.
There's a lot of stuff I like so far, like each mage needing to carve out her/his own warren, the tarot suits, that kind of thing. But I feel as though the book has a lot of bloat to it, and is just kind of meandering about vague landscapes. I still have no idea where Malaza is compared to the continent the campaign is happening on.
I kind of feel like I joined someone's year long DnD campaign as it was underway.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Don't worry about trying to remember what each race or magic is and just sort of push along, it begins to make more sense as you get into the book.
You did.
GURPS, but still.
Anyway, the books are written kinda like they're short stories written out to the length of a book - they're dense in terms of important information, and a lot of stuff that feels extraneous isn't, and you don't realize it until 3 books later.
Maybe try reading http://www.tor.com/features/series/malazan-reread-of-the-fallen along with it? It's a reread with one person who's completely fresh to the series, and can help summarize/draw attention to some things.
The series turns into something amazing once you catch your bearings, but GotM is an unwelcoming entry point.
I slogged through it, and was impressed enough by what I saw of the world to give Deadhouse Gates a shot, and that book fucking slayed me. It's the one that wins you over, and one of the best entries in the series. I don't think you'd be losing out on much if you read that one before GotM. It would definitely earn your interest.
Here's my biggest problem with the series. Erikson is amazing at writing climactic battles or points of tension which are these amazing epic scenes. The books are worth it for them alone. He, however, is horrible at writing glue plot, that connects all these scenes.
That said, I'm glad I read through them all, it was a good, if insanely world buildy series.
Anyways, Assail is pretty good. It looks like it will wrap up the storylines for T'lan Imass/Silverfox/Jaghut and the Crimson Guard and their Vow. We'll see though, nothing is settled yet. Also features a lot of Kyle, who has grown on me. And a lot of battles where a handful of protagonists survive against seemingly much larger forces. I like it so far though.
I'm divided between being excited that it's going to be told and disappointment that it's ICE. Not that I mind Esslemont's writing, but I feel like that story would do better with Erikson's style.
Anyway, I'm still back on Blood and Bone (been reading other stuff for a while), but Assail is purchased and in the pile
While I'm here, really enjoyed the first book of Erikson's new Kharkanas Trilogy.
It's a little sloppy, but it didn't really bother me. Better than not having that information available, I think. Lord knows I can't keep track of everything that's going on in the series, the reminders are very nice.
I'm super behind on my reading right now I've got it, but it'll be a month or two before I've gotten to it.
yup, I have been guessing that was the secret to the guard for a while.
I just chalk anything like this up as Shadowthrone playing the long con and setting this up ages ago.
He didn't need people in GotM times to know this kind of shit but he seeded it so that they would know later! :P
I best get cracking.
The Crimson Guard are an off-shoot of the T'lan ritual somehow? Can someone explain this further. The Crimson Guards aren't Imass are they? Were they a group of "humans" who conducted another ritual?
I'm a terrible person about reading spoilers, but it doesn't ruin anything for me, so whatever.
Assail spoilers, I guess