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What would you do? [Babysitter issue]

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    Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    I have a hard time imagining that a 14 year old would be able to initiate an apology after something like this, unless their parents force them to do it. Guilt and shame can be pretty overwhelming emotions at that age.

    It sounds like it would be good, both for her and for you, to sit down and have a talk with her. See what she has to say for herself. If, after the talk, you feel like you want to give her a (supervised) second chance while retaining your own peace of mind, do it. It's certainly a good thing to do.

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    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    It sounds like you're thinking things way too far out. If you want to continue having a relationship with her, the first thing to do is to talk to her. Building out some sort of elaborate plan for a road to rehabilitation is only going to add to the set of expectational baggage you will be carrying into a relationship that, frankly, has enough baggage as it is (not to mention the sheer amount of control her mother seems to have over her life).

    Seriously, just talk to her. Hopefully she apologizes, but at the very least you'll get a feel for her perspective and whether or not she actually cares enough to continue having a relationship moving forward. Also, avoid lecturing (someone mentioned it before). Lecturing is a terrible idea. Kids get enough of that crap from everyone else, they don't need it from someone who isn't their parent or teacher. If anything, trying to relate to her and showing her that this behavior isn't some sort of predetermined road to a life of crime and punishment is probably a good thing. Giving her an opportunity to prove that she's a better person and that she doesn't have to resort to criminal behavior is also a good thing. But none of that is mandatory. Just the act of talking to her afterwards is way more than I think most would be willing to give in this situation ("I have better things to do with my time than talking to a thief.")

    Also, you don't necessarily have to have some sort of crazy work plan to keep her in your life. If you just want to be a friend and/or mentor figure, you can do that. If you can't trust her, then you can't trust her. Hovering over her like a hawk while she's working in your home is not going to help things at all, and I doubt she'd be up for that work unless her mother forced her to do it. In which case she probably won't learn anything other than not to get caught next time. And you won't learn anything other than, amazingly, she can be trusted when you watch over her every move. It would make a lot more sense to give her tasks that don't require your constant supervision, and then if you feel like it down the road giving her another chance to prove her trustworthiness (or not - like I said before there's no reason to ever consider having her be your babysitter ever again).

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    LiiyaLiiya Registered User regular
    It is not selfish to not continue hiring someone who has stolen from you.

    A mistake is leaving a window open, burning dinner etc. Not knowingly stealing something. Personally I would not trust someone who knowingly steals and doesn't care about the consequences watch my small child, it speaks of lack of responsibility to me.

    It doesn't take a community to raise a child, it takes parents and sometimes teachers. This was a job the 14 year old was paid to do.

    However at the end of the day this can only be Ceres' decision!

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    MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    For the phone, a factory reset should do it, though not quite sure with a rooted one.
    I would factory reset then plug into a PC and check for any DCIM or Photo/Video folders.

    The Android discussion at Moe's might be able to help more.

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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Creagan wrote: »
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    No, there's a lot of very selfish opinions being thrown around here (and maybe for good reason but they are still selfish), but giving a 14 year old a second chance is not a terrible thing to do. On the contrary, ostracizing a 14 year old because of one mistake is a terrible thing to do. Imagine all the people who would have shit on you if they held every mistake against you when you were 14.

    This "lesson teaching" about her having to face the consequences sounds good, but in reality the girl will probably just take it as another thing that is against her. There's also a teaching lesson here for forgiveness, second chances, and trust, and I think that's more important than throwing down the hammer on a 14 year old.

    Yes, it's not Ceres's "job" and it might lead to more headache, but it takes a community to raise a child and it sounds like this child could use some positive role models in her life (or at the very least, positive experiences). I would talk to her (with and without her mother), and then explain the situation to her, ask her about her reasons, and then tell her that it was a mistake and if she wants to continue sitting for me, we need to do X, Y, and Z to re-build our trust (she has to earn it). Then, we turn this terrible situation into a potentially positive one, and it gives her agency in the matter (something that sounds like her mother routinely takes away).

    I really have a hard time seeing how lack of a home computer/internet and cash is a huge removal of one's agency. Seriously, compared to a lot of the agency-sucking crap I dealt with growing up, that's pretty freaking tame. There are so many ways to exert independence and get around not having a computer/internet/money without resorting to stealing. And it sounds like she has a phone (just not one with internet) so she can probably still text privately with friends.

    This girl doesn't need somebody to step in and give her agency. She needs to grow up and figure out how to make her own choices without breaking the law and betraying the trust of people who let her watch their small child.

    I just want to address this quickly. She doesn't actually have a phone at all because her mother doesn't trust her with one. I know this because her mother told me that she was considering getting her the most basic phone she could find for her birthday. She doesn't get to keep the money she makes, or even say whether or not she wants to babysit on a certain day. I have to call her mom's phone, and her mom makes the decision on the spot. I didn't grow up with this level of hovering. Maybe this seems excessive to me because I didn't experience this level of hovering, I just had to tell my mom where I was going and who I was with.

    The plan has been (for me, at least) to talk to her, hear what she has to say, and give her options she doesn't have to take if she isn't interested. We actually told her a while back that if she did some cleaning while she was here we would pay her extra, so this is something she's always had the option to do. But my husband and I are both completely in over our heads dealing with a teenager, and if we don't go in with some sort of plan that is flexible enough to depend on what she says, we'll end up paying her. And no, she has no ability to call us on her own right now.

    Her mother wants us to go over and talk to her in person (and has always mediated our interaction with her), but honestly I'd rather just call her, so I think I'm going to try for that. We don't have a lot of time to make to do this, and we would have to bring our son to sit her down together. That feels inappropriate to me.

    I feel like the option doesn't exist to never interact with them again. Like I said, her mom works at my dentist's office and we're both there about once a month right now. It would probably be a whole lot easier to cut her out otherwise, but I can't really avoid the woman and my dentist is awesome and I'm not going to switch to another one because of this. :P

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    BouwsTBouwsT Wanna come to a super soft birthday party? Registered User regular
    I just wanted to add that while you may be in over your head with a teen, I'd say that your experience moderating a forum has likely given you some bullshit-sniffing powers on the level of a blood hound. I'm willing to bet that given the chance to talk to her you'll be able to get a sense of whether this girl is going to cause problems for you in the future or not.

    I think you're going about this amicably, and while there's no right or wrong choice here I think you taking the compassionate route and taking the time to talk with her will prove to be good for both of you.

    Either she'll see that she screwed up big time, and you're treating her with respect OR you'll get a sense of a lack of sincerity and you'll be much better informed overall.

    Between you and me, Peggy, I smoked this Juul and it did UNTHINKABLE things to my mind and body...
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    DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    This could be a situation that may be salvageable via restorative justice. It's not just returning the stolen goods and saying "sorry"; she would need to understand that what she did caused hurt (likely something she wasn't thinking about or discounted when she stole the phone). Given that we're talking about an adolescent, how this plays out can be very instructive to her with regard to keeping the trust and respect of others. You have no obligation to do that of course, but IMO it is very valuable to adolescents to have such interactions with adults who are neither their parents nor their teachers.

    I do think that a meeting involving her mother and/or your child would be less constructive and more prone to a less than fully honest and direct discussion than a one-on-one.

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    AkilaeAkilae Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    ceres wrote: »
    The plan has been (for me, at least) to talk to her, hear what she has to say, and give her options she doesn't have to take if she isn't interested. We actually told her a while back that if she did some cleaning while she was here we would pay her extra, so this is something she's always had the option to do. But my husband and I are both completely in over our heads dealing with a teenager, and if we don't go in with some sort of plan that is flexible enough to depend on what she says, we'll end up paying her. And no, she has no ability to call us on her own right now.

    Her mother wants us to go over and talk to her in person (and has always mediated our interaction with her), but honestly I'd rather just call her, so I think I'm going to try for that. We don't have a lot of time to make to do this, and we would have to bring our son to sit her down together. That feels inappropriate to me.

    I feel like the option doesn't exist to never interact with them again. Like I said, her mom works at my dentist's office and we're both there about once a month right now. It would probably be a whole lot easier to cut her out otherwise, but I can't really avoid the woman and my dentist is awesome and I'm not going to switch to another one because of this. :P

    I find it somewhat amusing that you're in over your heads dealing with a teenager, cause soon you'll have one of your own, and this is good practice.

    On the serious note, and just my own experience dealing with troubled teenagers, but an in-person talk is always better than a phone conversation. However, if a third party is there (such as her mother), then that is not a good environment to get the teenager to talk to you. I would schedule something at a neutral location (Starbucks or something. Your house is a sensitive location right now, and her house might be too oppressive for her to talk), only you and her (Don't need both you and your husband, she can feel like she's being ganged up upon.). Oh, and if you're the paranoid type, record the entire conversation.

    Akilae on
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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    We're definitely growing with our son. :)

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    I can absolutely see this kind of move as a rebellion against her mom based on what you said, but that isn't your problem. As someone else said, one of the things about growing up is that you learn about how the things you do have consequences, but in order for that to work, you need to actually HAVE consequences.

    She absolutely doesn't deserve to catch shit for the rest of her life over this, but she shouldn't get an "all is forgiven" from you either. She blew a position of trust. If you want to give her a chance to rebuild it... that's cool, the cleaning thing (with supervision) might be a good idea once you've talked with her and get some idea of where things stand with her.


    As for the phone, it's easy to get a sim card, so while you may not have on in there, and there may not be one in there now, that isn't to say there isn't one she's used with it.
    And depending on the phone and how it's displaying, it could be a voicemail from something like google voice.

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Just to try and play the devil's advocate, and to attempt to see it from the kid's point of view... well this is clearly going to sound like justification, even though that is not where I want it to end.

    She lives in a house with zero net access. So the only times she gets to go online is likely at school (which is also likely heavily neutered), and what you let her do at your place. She's at the age where socializing and independence became almost everything. And what the internet means with that now... well fuck me, I have utterly zero frame of reference for this. The one that is barely in the ballpark is "Imagine as a teenager if you weren't allowed to watch TV at all" and even then it doesn't work. Either way, it's hard to deny how much of an effect the lowly webpage has had on us. So you have a teenager probably going nuts trying to get connected. She eventually spots an old phone that doesn't seem to have been touched for months. With a little fiddling... boom, access. And... queue stupid decision.

    Her mother's parenting, I'll try not to comment on. Her child, her rules, not my place to make judgement at all. This does however sound similar to what you get with with kids and insane draconian rules regarding alcohol and sex. You shelter it from them to such an extent, they end up going fucking nuts the second they get a taste. So that, in addition to how socially important the net is... and that stupid decision is that much more magnified.

    I'd be shocked if she was stealing anything else, like money. I disagree with the notion that this is clearly a gateway into such actions. That said, it's not impossible. Maybe she is a Scooby-Doo villain, and her apology will consist of an unrepentant "And I'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids!". I don't know. You make it sound like she's a good kid. Just one who made a real boneheaded mistake.

    As a slight aside, one of the best things I heard regarding kids is about the old question "What the hell were you thinking?!". It's actually sort of a dumb thing to say if you consider it. They were thinking. They were thinking pretty damn hard. It's just... they're kids. They're not playing the game with as full a deck of cards as an adult is.

    Now.. all that being said, it's not intended to be a "That's why she did it, we'd all have done the same, so let's forgive and forget". Just an armchair theory of what might have been going through her mind. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong. If it's mostly right, I am somewhat sympathetic to it. But again, just nothing at all to compare this to. Shit has changed, socially and technologically.

    As far as punishment, I more or less agree with the group. Firing her is obvious. Actions have consequences and all that. Personally speaking, I don't think anything good will come of going nuclear and saying "Fuck you for life". Though neither are you obligated to sit, work it out, and forgive her. It really all depends on how close you are to her and her mother.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    TechnicalityTechnicality Registered User regular
    Whoa, so her mum decides if and when she babysits and also takes the payment off her to buy stuff she probably doesn't care about. Do you know if babysitting is something she actually wants to do, or is she just being railroaded into doing what her mum thinks a child her age should be doing?

    That combined with the level of parental control you describe sounds horribly oppressive. In that situation I can't think of anything I would want more than a secret smartphone. I agree with The Wolfman in that I can totally see someone who wouldn't normally steal things doing so in this specific situation for fairly rational reasons, even from someone they liked and respected.

    Having said that, looking into a more stable babysitter is probably a good idea.

    handt.jpg tor.jpg

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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Whoa, so her mum decides if and when she babysits and also takes the payment off her to buy stuff she probably doesn't care about. Do you know if babysitting is something she actually wants to do, or is she just being railroaded into doing what her mum thinks a child her age should be doing?

    Nooooo idea. I've wondered that myself on occasion. I do know that she is happy for us to have her any time just to get away from her family for a bit, and has even stayed for a bit after we got back. And I feel for her. Her mother told me that as soon as she found the phone she took the kid's door off it's hinges. I've heard tell that this is a thing people do, but I can't comprehend it.

    I've left money on my desk because I'm dumb and noticed it when I got back.. just a few dollars, but she's never touched cash we have around or looked through jewelry or anything. It's just the phone. I think maybe part of the reason this happened is we never saw a reason not to let her use internet at our house (she does have a google voice number, btw), and we've spent a while chatting with her when we get back sometimes.. I really think she thought we were "cool" enough to let it slide. We aren't, but if we had figured it out before her mother we would have handled things a LOT differently.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    CreaganCreagan Registered User regular
    ceres wrote: »
    I just want to address this quickly. She doesn't actually have a phone at all because her mother doesn't trust her with one. I know this because her mother told me that she was considering getting her the most basic phone she could find for her birthday. She doesn't get to keep the money she makes, or even say whether or not she wants to babysit on a certain day. I have to call her mom's phone, and her mom makes the decision on the spot. I didn't grow up with this level of hovering. Maybe this seems excessive to me because I didn't experience this level of hovering, I just had to tell my mom where I was going and who I was with.

    Sorry, my mistake. In light of the new information, this depends on whether she's an 8th grader or a freshman in high school. (Actually, now that I think of it, most of this stuff depends on what grade she's in.) Some parents use your grade in school as a measurement of maturity, not your actual age. So in their mind, there's not much distinction between a 14 year old 8th grader and an 11 year old 6th grader, because that's "junior high." If she's an 8th grader, it's pretty darned strict but what I'd call excessive. If she's in high school, this is excessive.
    ceres wrote: »
    Her mother wants us to go over and talk to her in person (and has always mediated our interaction with her), but honestly I'd rather just call her, so I think I'm going to try for that. We don't have a lot of time to make to do this, and we would have to bring our son to sit her down together. That feels inappropriate to me.

    You're right. This is inappropriate and a weird thing to ask of you. A phone call is better.
    ceres wrote: »
    Whoa, so her mum decides if and when she babysits and also takes the payment off her to buy stuff she probably doesn't care about. Do you know if babysitting is something she actually wants to do, or is she just being railroaded into doing what her mum thinks a child her age should be doing?

    Nooooo idea. I've wondered that myself on occasion. I do know that she is happy for us to have her any time just to get away from her family for a bit, and has even stayed for a bit after we got back. And I feel for her. Her mother told me that as soon as she found the phone she took the kid's door off it's hinges. I've heard tell that this is a thing people do, but I can't comprehend it.

    Door removal can be a reasonable punishment. Although I'd hesitate to say it was in this case for this girl. She doesn't sound so completely out of control her parents need to put her on total lockdown. (Which is the reason my brother lost his door for a month, something I do feel he deserved given what he was doing.) Maybe if she's been slamming the door, losing it would make sense. (My sister had her door taken away because she kept slamming it so hard she was cracking the drywall, which I also feel was a perfectly reasonable punishment.)
    ceres wrote: »
    I've left money on my desk because I'm dumb and noticed it when I got back.. just a few dollars, but she's never touched cash we have around or looked through jewelry or anything. It's just the phone. I think maybe part of the reason this happened is we never saw a reason not to let her use internet at our house (she does have a google voice number, btw), and we've spent a while chatting with her when we get back sometimes.. I really think she thought we were "cool" enough to let it slide. We aren't, but if we had figured it out before her mother we would have handled things a LOT differently.

    This could be the case, but it's also not smart to just take money that's clearly lying out in the open. My siblings pretty much only stole money from my parents' change jar because that was a lot less noticeable.

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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Alright guys, I think I have what I need. Thanks to everyone who gave their two cents.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
This discussion has been closed.