How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants. Why is there an outcry of Genocide for Turkey but none of the EU members? Do they deny their own hand in destorying many cultures and values?
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants. Why is there an outcry of Genocide for Turkey but none of the EU members? Do they deny their own hand in destorying many cultures and values?
Because most countries have acknowledged that colonialism and imperialsm fucked a lot of shit up. (See: Belgian Congo.)
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants.
Because this thread is about the genocide that happened to the Armenians, not the European pagans?
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants. Why is there an outcry of Genocide for Turkey but none of the EU members? Do they deny their own hand in destorying many cultures and values?
Because of better documentation and the fact it happened more recently?
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants.
Because this thread is about the genocide that happened to the Armenians, not the European pagans?
I think Katchem_ash brings up a nice point regarding double-standards and "history is written by the winners". Not unrelated to this topic.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants.
Because this thread is about the genocide that happened to the Armenians, not the European pagans?
I think Katchem_ash brings up a nice point regarding double-standards and "history is written by the winners". Not unrelated to this topic.
No one is contesting that what happened to the pagans under Christendom was anything other than genocide. The same cannot be said for what happened to the Armenians under the Ottomans.
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants. Why is there an outcry of Genocide for Turkey but none of the EU members? Do they deny their own hand in destorying many cultures and values?
Because most countries have acknowledged that colonialism and imperialsm fucked a lot of shit up. (See: Belgian Congo.)
Do they call it Genocide? Do they come up and say "yes its Genocide cause we destoryed tons of Culture to get material wealth which we are still using today?"
@romanlevin So you saying that there is no documention that the Western Powers occupied countries, took over thier religious belifs and instilled "Good Christan Values" on them? Think before your answer.
So when every single other country owns up to every single atrocity that occured involving their ancestors, then Turkey should? How does that fact that one country doesn't want to do what's right have on any bearing on what another should do?
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants.
Because this thread is about the genocide that happened to the Armenians, not the European pagans?
I think Katchem_ash brings up a nice point regarding double-standards and "history is written by the winners". Not unrelated to this topic.
No one is contesting that what happened to the pagans under Christendom was anything other than genocide. The same cannot be said for what happened to the Armenians under the Ottomans.
But do we get calls form countries calling for it to be described as Genocide or condeming the countries or is it "yeah we did it. So what?" Cause thats the attitudes I see with France and Spain.
How about moving away from 1915 and start classifying Western Europe's Geneocide of natives and rituals to bring in "Good Christan Values" to its inhabitants.
Because this thread is about the genocide that happened to the Armenians, not the European pagans?
I think Katchem_ash brings up a nice point regarding double-standards and "history is written by the winners". Not unrelated to this topic.
No one is contesting that what happened to the pagans under Christendom was anything other than genocide. The same cannot be said for what happened to the Armenians under the Ottomans.
But do we get calls form countries calling for it to be described as Genocide or condeming the countries or is it "yeah we did it. So what?" Cause thats the attitudes I see with France and Spain.
well, actually, it's more "Yeah it happened, how do we deal with it?" Which is significantly different.
But do we get calls form countries calling for it to be described as Genocide or condeming the countries or is it "yeah we did it. So what?" Cause thats the attitudes I see with France and Spain.
France is pretty darned famous for slicing off heads.
I don't see them being in denial about their mass murders.
So when every single other country owns up to every single atrocity that occured involving their ancestors, then Turkey should? How does that fact that one country doesn't want to do what's right have on any bearing on what another should do?
Because people in class stone shouldn't throw rocks. When America admits that Native Americans were killed in a massive Genocide and call it a Genoside then they should be forced to call on other countries to admit it.
Because people in class stone shouldn't throw rocks. When America admits that Native Americans were killed in a massive Genocide and call it a Genoside then they should be forced to call on other countries to admit it.
So when every single other country owns up to every single atrocity that occured involving their ancestors, then Turkey should? How does that fact that one country doesn't want to do what's right have on any bearing on what another should do?
No, it just helps ease worries of Turkey being targeted specifically.
I mean, you have to think about this whole thing in broader perspective. This is not only the matter of genocide. USA has always been a one-way ally for us; they've always gotten what they wanted without fulfilling their promises. Turkey naturally feels taken advantage of. This resolution is the final straw. You can push people's patience only so far before they snap.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
So when every single other country owns up to every single atrocity that occured involving their ancestors, then Turkey should? How does that fact that one country doesn't want to do what's right have on any bearing on what another should do?
Because people in class stone shouldn't throw rocks. When America admits that Native Americans were killed in a massive Genocide and call it a Genoside then they should be forced to call on other countries to admit it.
The fact that we annihilated several cultures is acknowledged, even if we don't call it genocide.
So when every single other country owns up to every single atrocity that occured involving their ancestors, then Turkey should? How does that fact that one country doesn't want to do what's right have on any bearing on what another should do?
Because people in class stone shouldn't throw rocks. When America admits that Native Americans were killed in a massive Genocide and call it a Genoside then they should be forced to call on other countries to admit it.
I think it was genocide. I don't deny that our government is being retarded about it either. I think Turkey should admit their own past regardless of how stupid my own government can be.
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
So when every single other country owns up to every single atrocity that occured involving their ancestors, then Turkey should? How does that fact that one country doesn't want to do what's right have on any bearing on what another should do?
Because people in class stone shouldn't throw rocks. When America admits that Native Americans were killed in a massive Genocide and call it a Genoside then they should be forced to call on other countries to admit it.
The fact that we annihilated several cultures is acknowledged, even if we don't call it genocide.
Why not? Does Genocide not apply it to cultures no longer there? Does Genocide not count before the 1900? Does the mass wipe of the native cultures to implant "Good Christan Values" not count as Genocide? Whats makes the other countries so special that they can leave without a scratch but agianst Turkey its all "GENOCIDE!"
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
So, ege, straight up. Did the Ottoman Empire commit genocide against the Armeninans?
The actions of the Ottoman Empire caused the deaths of about a million Armenians.
I don't accept that it was genocide, due to my belief - based my own research - that the intent was not to annihilate the population. In some outlier cases it may have been, but the official state policy never was "exterminate the Armenians" unlike it was with Germany and the Jews.
You have to remember that the suspect is innocent unless proven without a reasonable amount of doubt that he is guilty. Poor record-keeping practices during that era makes it difficult to reduce that doubt below the necessary threshold. Until proof appears that points conclusively at the Ottoman government's - rather than a relatively few rebellious army officers' - sole intent at destroying the Armenians, I will personally never accept that it was genocide.
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
You need to practice what you preach before other countries will start taking you seriously regarding the matter.
Dictating massacres in history as genocides when you haven't even owned up to your own crimes makes people regard you with :roll:
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
I admit that it was a Genocide, just like the Russians killing Central Asians when they invaded, or when France/Spain/UK Colonized countries. All those were Genocides. All of them must be brought to justice. I am still waiting for Europeans to be called up to admit it.
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
You need to practice what you preach before other countries will start taking you seriously regarding the matter.
Dictating massacres in history as genocides when you haven't even owned up to your own crimes makes people regard you with
Again, I am practicing what I preach. I am not in denial about what people entirely unrelated to me did hundreds of years ago. You seem to be.
You have to remember that the suspect is innocent unless proven without a reasonable amount of doubt that he is guilty.
This is pretty funny.
Why is it funny? The American justice system operates on the basis of innocence, not guilt. When it comes to judging other countries, however, this is reversed; people first make up their minds that the country in question is guilty, then they try to prove it.
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
You need to practice what you preach before other countries will start taking you seriously regarding the matter.
Dictating massacres in history as genocides when you haven't even owned up to your own crimes makes people regard you with
Again, I am practicing what I preach. I am not in denial about what people entirely unrelated to me did hundreds of years ago. You seem to be.
I am not denying that it happened. I am denying that it was genocide.
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
I admit that it was a Genocide, just like the Russians killing Central Asians when they invaded, or when France/Spain/UK Colonized countries. All those were Genocides. All of them must be brought to justice. I am still waiting for Europeans to be called up to admit it.
Out of curiosity, and I know I'm going to regret this, how do you bring someone to justice for completely exterminating an entire race of people two hundred years ago?
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
I admit that it was a Genocide, just like the Russians killing Central Asians when they invaded, or when France/Spain/UK Colonized countries. All those were Genocides. All of them must be brought to justice. I am still waiting for Europeans to be called up to admit it.
Out of curiosity, and I know I'm going to regret this, how do you bring someone to justice for completely exterminating an entire race of people two hundred years ago?
Same way you'll bring Turkey to justice. Shouldn't be to hard should it?
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
I admit that it was a Genocide, just like the Russians killing Central Asians when they invaded, or when France/Spain/UK Colonized countries. All those were Genocides. All of them must be brought to justice. I am still waiting for Europeans to be called up to admit it.
Out of curiosity, and I know I'm going to regret this, how do you bring someone to justice for completely exterminating an entire race of people two hundred years ago?
You genocide their progeny.
edit: Ash, we're not bringing anyone to justice. We're acknowleding the fact that the act happened. That's it, no one's going to jail or paying a fine. This doesn't effect anything except the feelings of the Armenians and apparently the people of Turkey.
Yeah but does the world call it Genocide? Does the fact of the matter that France commited Genocide on many aspects of peoples lives in French Polynesia and others matter not? When France or others do it "Oh its all right! DOWN WITH THEM!" But when you ask about their actions it like "So What?"
I dare you to find a congressman who says "So what" to what happened to the Indians. They're still coming up short of calling it genocide. And it's terribly stupid. Are you saying that Turkey is being terribly stupid also, or that they're just waiting for everyone else to stop being terribly stupid so they can feel vindicated?
I admit that it was a Genocide, just like the Russians killing Central Asians when they invaded, or when France/Spain/UK Colonized countries. All those were Genocides. All of them must be brought to justice. I am still waiting for Europeans to be called up to admit it.
Out of curiosity, and I know I'm going to regret this, how do you bring someone to justice for completely exterminating an entire race of people two hundred years ago?
Same way you'll bring Turkey to justice. Shouldn't be to hard should it?
No one is trying to bring Turkey to justice. People are trying to get them to admit it happened. They refuse to. This is the problem.
It's like if the German government was denying the Holocaust had occurred. Or rather, that they were saying it wasn't intentional. The Jews they were holding just happened to slip and fall into ovens.
I am not denying that it happened. I am denying that it was genocide.
Targeting a specific group of people, taking their property, and then moving many of them into forced labor and eventually just marching them into the middle of the desert doesn't strike you as genocide?
Posts
We have had a couple of other "Armenian genocide" threads in the past, and I've shared plenty of sources in them. Knuckle Dragger can vouch for this.
Because of better documentation and the fact it happened more recently?
EDIT: Beat'd twice.
I think Katchem_ash brings up a nice point regarding double-standards and "history is written by the winners". Not unrelated to this topic.
Trail of Tears was a genocidal action.
Many other wars were genocidal in nature.
Many genocides are going on right now.
Do you think we think Turkey and Germany are the only countries who "genocide" applies to or something?
I certainly don't think so.
Do they call it Genocide? Do they come up and say "yes its Genocide cause we destoryed tons of Culture to get material wealth which we are still using today?"
@romanlevin So you saying that there is no documention that the Western Powers occupied countries, took over thier religious belifs and instilled "Good Christan Values" on them? Think before your answer.
But do we get calls form countries calling for it to be described as Genocide or condeming the countries or is it "yeah we did it. So what?" Cause thats the attitudes I see with France and Spain.
It certainly is one of the few about which you are passing a resolution.
France is pretty darned famous for slicing off heads.
I don't see them being in denial about their mass murders.
Because people in class stone shouldn't throw rocks. When America admits that Native Americans were killed in a massive Genocide and call it a Genoside then they should be forced to call on other countries to admit it.
I'm an American.
It was Genocide.
Next.
No, it just helps ease worries of Turkey being targeted specifically.
I mean, you have to think about this whole thing in broader perspective. This is not only the matter of genocide. USA has always been a one-way ally for us; they've always gotten what they wanted without fulfilling their promises. Turkey naturally feels taken advantage of. This resolution is the final straw. You can push people's patience only so far before they snap.
Why not? Does Genocide not apply it to cultures no longer there? Does Genocide not count before the 1900? Does the mass wipe of the native cultures to implant "Good Christan Values" not count as Genocide? Whats makes the other countries so special that they can leave without a scratch but agianst Turkey its all "GENOCIDE!"
O_o
The actions of the Ottoman Empire caused the deaths of about a million Armenians.
I don't accept that it was genocide, due to my belief - based my own research - that the intent was not to annihilate the population. In some outlier cases it may have been, but the official state policy never was "exterminate the Armenians" unlike it was with Germany and the Jews.
You have to remember that the suspect is innocent unless proven without a reasonable amount of doubt that he is guilty. Poor record-keeping practices during that era makes it difficult to reduce that doubt below the necessary threshold. Until proof appears that points conclusively at the Ottoman government's - rather than a relatively few rebellious army officers' - sole intent at destroying the Armenians, I will personally never accept that it was genocide.
This is pretty funny.
You need to practice what you preach before other countries will start taking you seriously regarding the matter.
Dictating massacres in history as genocides when you haven't even owned up to your own crimes makes people regard you with :roll:
I admit that it was a Genocide, just like the Russians killing Central Asians when they invaded, or when France/Spain/UK Colonized countries. All those were Genocides. All of them must be brought to justice. I am still waiting for Europeans to be called up to admit it.
Why is it funny? The American justice system operates on the basis of innocence, not guilt. When it comes to judging other countries, however, this is reversed; people first make up their minds that the country in question is guilty, then they try to prove it.
I am not denying that it happened. I am denying that it was genocide.
No, no it doesn't.
Certain kinds of trial operate on this, other kinds just require reasonable evidence.
Go look up the OJ Trials.
He was found "innocent," and then penalized.
Out of curiosity, and I know I'm going to regret this, how do you bring someone to justice for completely exterminating an entire race of people two hundred years ago?
How do you commit genocide on an aspect of people's lives?
took out her barrettes and her hair spilled out like rootbeer
Same way you'll bring Turkey to justice. Shouldn't be to hard should it?
edit: Ash, we're not bringing anyone to justice. We're acknowleding the fact that the act happened. That's it, no one's going to jail or paying a fine. This doesn't effect anything except the feelings of the Armenians and apparently the people of Turkey.
What's this "bringing to justice" garbage you're spewing?
Fessing up about your grandparents doesn't mean punishment for what they did.
Otherwise this would be the United States of Native America.
No one is trying to bring Turkey to justice. People are trying to get them to admit it happened. They refuse to. This is the problem.
It's like if the German government was denying the Holocaust had occurred. Or rather, that they were saying it wasn't intentional. The Jews they were holding just happened to slip and fall into ovens.