Batman Begins was "modestly" successful, TDK benefited from the Joker, as all Batman media does (See Suicide Squad). TDKR made a billion dollars despite being terrible, riding the success of a Joker filled TDK.
And going back a few pages to the discussion about Superman not saving people because he was inexperienced.
I wouldn't expect him to fight a focused and maniacal foe effortlessly and give him time to save people as well. That said, him trying and failing would at least have helped justify what he did in the end. But the film glosses over it (and I don't mean it needs to be shown on screen), but the death of Zod is worse because there are literally like limitless ways he could have stopped Zod from killing that family that didn't involve killing him. If it had been a broken man's desperation, it could have at least fit as a last ditch effort.
Then he nonchalantly messed with a soldier guy, and hey world is saved.
I think it's gonna do great. Comic nerds gonna watch it out of morbid curiosity, even if they hated the first one. Everyone else, the title alone should get pretty much everyone and their mommas in there
Nah, that's not a billion dollar thing. Nerd watching it is paltry, and the title will get some eyeballs, sure. Not Avengers ballpark. That took Batman + Batman Begins + Chris Nolan + The Dark Knight (which is a solid film period), and even Nolan couldn't reproduce it exactly with TDKR. And his influence on MOS didn't touch that success.
It's Batman and Superman. And Wonder Woman. It will make a lot of money. Avengers 1 money.
It will make a lot of money, agreed. Avengers money is on another level, because despite their being iconic DC's done a bad job keeping them relevant - aside from Batman. People know of Wonder Woman, but they couldn't tell you her real name, and her claim to fame is still tied to Lynda Carter. This is the first time she's ever been in a film, and she hasn't had a popular show since Carter. The last failed pilot is also an albatross people will remember, and they don't need to go far to find out what happened thanks to the internet. Superman's been fading for so long, it took MOS to make it slightly taken serious in the modern context and Superman Returns was a colossal blunder. Batman has been relevant, and that's due to WB putting effort in with movies (and they took years to live down Schumacher's influence, and Catwoman and Gotham are tarnishing the brand by association) and he had the luck of Chris Nolan revitalizing him for the modern audience - but he's gone now.
edit: DC's also in big trouble with Marvel stealing the lime light from those icons, and the only one not in danger is Batman. Because he's Batman.
You like MoS? You've spent this entire thread shitting on it?
I actually really liked MoS too, even though I give it flack for its big flaws. I'm hoping BvS addresses those problems and uses them as a story launching point. (It looks like it will too)
Batman vs. Superman will do about Avengers 2 at the box office, and be the biggest comic movie of the year (unless Disney does a Frozen type scenario with Civil War where they put some Star Wars special stuff in front of the movie). So that's a billion and a fifth there.
I'm skeptical it'll make a billion. Batman needed the Nolan magic at its peak to touch Avengers, or the equivalent, and Snyder hasn't got it. Plus, it's got to live down its connection to MOS.And it's already selling itself as a controversial film from its advertising. It'll make good money, mind you, but not in that ball park.
No, it doesn't. Because MoS made a good bit of money, regardless of whether the internet thought it was good or not.
I mean, Michael Bay's Transformer movies are complete shit but a connection to them is only a gain for a film given their money-making power.
It was critically panned but generally enjoyed by audiences. Which is enough to make a profit but does not indicate the sequel is going to reach over a billion dollars.
Well yeah, but I'm not saying it will. I'm saying it doesn't have to live down it's connection to MoS. That connection will probably help it cause MoS was successful. (though not ridiculously hugely successful)
Right, there's pretty much zero chance BvS does less than MoS. It's the first big cinematic meeting of Batman and Superman. Even if word got out that it's just two hours of nothing but a belching contest between the two, it would probably still crack $500 million.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
Agreed, Batman ft. Superman is the first big screen crossover of the two biggest DC characters. The story/quality/writing doesn't even matter and it's still going to make crazy bank. People who avoid all comic book movies will probably go and see this just to see these two pieces of pop culture history meet.
Agreed, Batman ft. Superman is the first big screen crossover of the two biggest DC characters. The story/quality/writing doesn't even matter and it's still going to make crazy bank. People who avoid all comic book movies will probably go and see this just to see these two pieces of pop culture history meet.
I'm thinking it'll definitely beat MoS numbers.
Definitely.
The big question is whether it can top, say, Avengers. Or even Avengers 2. The meeting of the two should do that, or at least put it within spitting distance. But if the movie turns out to be grimdark and unpleasant, it could cut down on all those second or third viewings it would generate if it were genuinely good. Even at $700 million, the massive marketing will take a giant chunk out of that take. It needs to do better.
Then again I just read an article on how Space Jam was fondly remembered, so what the hell do I know.
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GatorAn alligator in ScotlandRegistered Userregular
I think it's gonna do great. Comic nerds gonna watch it out of morbid curiosity, even if they hated the first one. Everyone else, the title alone should get pretty much everyone and their mommas in there
Nah, that's not a billion dollar thing. Nerd watching it is paltry, and the title will get some eyeballs, sure. Not Avengers ballpark. That took Batman + Batman Begins + Chris Nolan + The Dark Knight (which is a solid film period), and even Nolan couldn't reproduce it exactly with TDKR. And his influence on MOS didn't touch that success.
It's Batman and Superman. And Wonder Woman. It will make a lot of money. Avengers 1 money.
It will make a lot of money, agreed. Avengers money is on another level, because despite their being iconic DC's done a bad job keeping them relevant - aside from Batman. People know of Wonder Woman, but they couldn't tell you her real name, and her claim to fame is still tied to Lynda Carter. This is the first time she's ever been in a film, and she hasn't had a popular show since Carter. The last failed pilot is also an albatross people will remember, and they don't need to go far to find out what happened thanks to the internet. Superman's been fading for so long, it took MOS to make it slightly taken serious in the modern context and Superman Returns was a colossal blunder. Batman has been relevant, and that's due to WB putting effort in with movies (and they took years to live down Schumacher's influence, and Catwoman and Gotham are tarnishing the brand by association) and he had the luck of Chris Nolan revitalizing him for the modern audience - but he's gone now.
edit: DC's also in big trouble with Marvel stealing the lime light from those icons, and the only one not in danger is Batman. Because he's Batman.
To be frank, DC has the same problem with their own comic books. Wonder Woman is a character that has been in a constant state of flux since, practically, her inception. Its universe has been rebooted, not one, not two, but three times (or maybe two and a half, with Zero Hour not counting - no one really knows). They rebooted its comic book numbers every other month; while Marvel's had, like, two "Avengers" or "Spiderman" (main) titles, I'd hazard a guess we're with the 5th WW series, or Aquaman series, or GL series.
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
I lost track of how many times they rebooted Legion of Super Heroes.
I lost track of how many times they rebooted Legion of Super Heroes.
Long live the Legion!
Five times, I think. I remember that the big relaunch with Waid was the Threeboot, and then there was that weird arc with some Legion members in the present as part of an event (which wasn't connected to Waid's run) and then the New52 happened. There's also a pocket universe iteration (I think?) as well as their appearance on Smallville and their own cartoon show.
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
I lost track of how many times they rebooted Legion of Super Heroes.
Long live the Legion!
Five times, I think. I remember that the big relaunch with Waid was the Threeboot, and then there was that weird arc with some Legion members in the present as part of an event (which wasn't connected to Waid's run) and then the New52 happened. There's also a pocket universe iteration (I think?) as well as their appearance on Smallville and their own cartoon show.
They were rebooted three times within the first few issues of the "Five Years Later" storyline by Keith Giffen and Tom and Mary Bierbaum, and again for Zero Hour.
If it was all in one storyline, does it count as separate iterations though?
The basic premise of Five Years Later is that the story literally skips five years ahead from the previous issues. The characters and settings are changed enough that I think that counts as a reboot. Then Glorith messes with the timeline and the Legionaries have to set it back right, or at least as close as they can. You could argue those two don't count as reboots, but it was a lot of changes to digest in a fairly short time.
So, the full cast of Wonder Woman: Chris Pine (as Captain Steve Trevor), Robin Wright (House of Cards), Danny Huston (Clash of the Titans), David Thewlis (Harry Potter), Ewen Bremner (Exodus: Gods and Kings), Saïd Taghmaoui (American Hustle), Elena Anaya (The Skin I Live In), and Lucy Davis (Shaun of the Dead).
Also, there's the first picture. Sure, the casting has gotten grief for Wonder Woman being a bit physically slight, but at least she has the stare of a badass, right?
So, the full cast of Wonder Woman: Chris Pine (as Captain Steve Trevor), Robin Wright (House of Cards), Danny Huston (Clash of the Titans), David Thewlis (Harry Potter), Ewen Bremner (Exodus: Gods and Kings), Saïd Taghmaoui (American Hustle), Elena Anaya (The Skin I Live In), and Lucy Davis (Shaun of the Dead).
Also, there's the first picture. Sure, the casting has gotten grief for Wonder Woman being a bit physically slight, but at least she has the stare of a badass, right?
So, the full cast of Wonder Woman: Chris Pine (as Captain Steve Trevor), Robin Wright (House of Cards), Danny Huston (Clash of the Titans), David Thewlis (Harry Potter), Ewen Bremner (Exodus: Gods and Kings), Saïd Taghmaoui (American Hustle), Elena Anaya (The Skin I Live In), and Lucy Davis (Shaun of the Dead).
Also, there's the first picture. Sure, the casting has gotten grief for Wonder Woman being a bit physically slight, but at least she has the stare of a badass, right?
Y'know, I'm just gonna say: I'm generally kind of detached from all the talk of gaze/female body image in film, but...
the amount of talk about how this actress looks in relation to how she 'should' look for WonderWoman makes me kinda ill
Seriously
I think it'd be dope to get a tall, beefy lady onscreen to play Diana, but I'm not on board with tiny-shaming the actress we got
Also, Jessica Jones if friggin waifish. And beats ass like a bawss because she's got super-strength.
I'm not trying to tiny shame her. I'm absolutely blaming the people making this movie for not understanding what I consider some of the very important visual aspects of WW that also speak to her character.
I'm hoping to be surprised by the movie but I admit I'm very pessimistic about it given the design they have put forth so far.
No one is tiny shaming. People are however tired of virtually every lead woman being small and thin. Especially when such a description does not describe the source material at all.
Y'know, I'm just gonna say: I'm generally kind of detached from all the talk of gaze/female body image in film, but...
the amount of talk about how this actress looks in relation to how she 'should' look for WonderWoman makes me kinda ill
Seriously
I think it'd be dope to get a tall, beefy lady onscreen to play Diana, but I'm not on board with tiny-shaming the actress we got
Also, Jessica Jones if friggin waifish. And beats ass like a bawss because she's got super-strength.
Jessica Jones may be a waif but she moves like she knows how to tear your car door off. Ritter absolutely sold that. And Ritter's a better actress than Gadot so
FroThulu I do appreciate you bringing it up. I think we should be careful about how we are couching these arguments that she doesn't look like WW or shouldn't be playing her to avoid falling into the trap of women never meeting the standards we set for them.
Gadot's 5' 9", that's on the tall end for women (especially actresses, Black Widow is a lilliputian 5'3" along with everyone else but Thor).
It's not about being tall, Tom Cruise is a tiny man and can produce amazing work as an action hero. It's about presence, and showing that the character appears like she can throw down without blinking and getting the audience to play along.
Like this
I like her, I think she'll do fine, the hood and smile thing is weird for a first promo image.
I'm just praying the friendly look isn't the execs thinking "welp, it's lead by a woman, meaning it'll be a chick flick. We'd better Barbie her up to appeal to our long-held stereotypes of what audiences want."
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
they really need to get to the core of wonder woman
wonder-woman-chan...
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I'd actually be down with her being more upbeat than the others, since it seems that can't happen with Superman.
Aquaman is too busy being all "I have tats, brah, remember when I was in Baywatch Hawaii?" and Green Lantern won't be Sean William Scott Guy Gardner, and Flash is going to be some emo kid in skinny jeans, so if Diana is the one with a smile first, punch later concept, go for it.
I'm just praying the friendly look isn't the execs thinking "welp, it's lead by a woman, meaning it'll be a chick flick. We'd better Barbie her up to appeal to our long-held stereotypes of what audiences want."
If that's the case then nobody at Warner is aware of the existence of The Hunger Games.
I'd actually be down with her being more upbeat than the others, since it seems that can't happen with Superman.
Aquaman is too busy being all "I have tats, brah, remember when I was in Baywatch Hawaii?" and Green Lantern won't be Sean William Scott Guy Gardner, and Flash is going to be some emo kid in skinny jeans, so if Diana is the one with a smile first, punch later concept, go for it.
She can beat upbeat and be in a heavy action film (the last director left after being refused this IIRC) and look like a warrior who will cut you in half if she felt like it.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Gadot does look tough, just not in that photo. The few seconds she was in the BVS trailer showed it, as does the trinity posing for the poster.
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And going back a few pages to the discussion about Superman not saving people because he was inexperienced.
I wouldn't expect him to fight a focused and maniacal foe effortlessly and give him time to save people as well. That said, him trying and failing would at least have helped justify what he did in the end. But the film glosses over it (and I don't mean it needs to be shown on screen), but the death of Zod is worse because there are literally like limitless ways he could have stopped Zod from killing that family that didn't involve killing him. If it had been a broken man's desperation, it could have at least fit as a last ditch effort.
Then he nonchalantly messed with a soldier guy, and hey world is saved.
Nah, that's not a billion dollar thing. Nerd watching it is paltry, and the title will get some eyeballs, sure. Not Avengers ballpark. That took Batman + Batman Begins + Chris Nolan + The Dark Knight (which is a solid film period), and even Nolan couldn't reproduce it exactly with TDKR. And his influence on MOS didn't touch that success.
It will make a lot of money, agreed. Avengers money is on another level, because despite their being iconic DC's done a bad job keeping them relevant - aside from Batman. People know of Wonder Woman, but they couldn't tell you her real name, and her claim to fame is still tied to Lynda Carter. This is the first time she's ever been in a film, and she hasn't had a popular show since Carter. The last failed pilot is also an albatross people will remember, and they don't need to go far to find out what happened thanks to the internet. Superman's been fading for so long, it took MOS to make it slightly taken serious in the modern context and Superman Returns was a colossal blunder. Batman has been relevant, and that's due to WB putting effort in with movies (and they took years to live down Schumacher's influence, and Catwoman and Gotham are tarnishing the brand by association) and he had the luck of Chris Nolan revitalizing him for the modern audience - but he's gone now.
edit: DC's also in big trouble with Marvel stealing the lime light from those icons, and the only one not in danger is Batman. Because he's Batman.
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I actually really liked MoS too, even though I give it flack for its big flaws. I'm hoping BvS addresses those problems and uses them as a story launching point. (It looks like it will too)
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Well yeah, but I'm not saying it will. I'm saying it doesn't have to live down it's connection to MoS. That connection will probably help it cause MoS was successful. (though not ridiculously hugely successful)
I'm thinking it'll definitely beat MoS numbers.
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Definitely.
The big question is whether it can top, say, Avengers. Or even Avengers 2. The meeting of the two should do that, or at least put it within spitting distance. But if the movie turns out to be grimdark and unpleasant, it could cut down on all those second or third viewings it would generate if it were genuinely good. Even at $700 million, the massive marketing will take a giant chunk out of that take. It needs to do better.
Then again I just read an article on how Space Jam was fondly remembered, so what the hell do I know.
To be frank, DC has the same problem with their own comic books. Wonder Woman is a character that has been in a constant state of flux since, practically, her inception. Its universe has been rebooted, not one, not two, but three times (or maybe two and a half, with Zero Hour not counting - no one really knows). They rebooted its comic book numbers every other month; while Marvel's had, like, two "Avengers" or "Spiderman" (main) titles, I'd hazard a guess we're with the 5th WW series, or Aquaman series, or GL series.
They were rebooted three times within the first few issues of the "Five Years Later" storyline by Keith Giffen and Tom and Mary Bierbaum, and again for Zero Hour.
The basic premise of Five Years Later is that the story literally skips five years ahead from the previous issues. The characters and settings are changed enough that I think that counts as a reboot. Then Glorith messes with the timeline and the Legionaries have to set it back right, or at least as close as they can. You could argue those two don't count as reboots, but it was a lot of changes to digest in a fairly short time.
Still my favorite era of the Legion.
Also, there's the first picture. Sure, the casting has gotten grief for Wonder Woman being a bit physically slight, but at least she has the stare of a badass, right?
Er.
Does that have a director yet?
its being directed by Patty Jenkins.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Robin Wright's a good get for DC.
god dammit
Steve Trevor will have to unite the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor to be worthy to marry her.
the amount of talk about how this actress looks in relation to how she 'should' look for WonderWoman makes me kinda ill
Seriously
I think it'd be dope to get a tall, beefy lady onscreen to play Diana, but I'm not on board with tiny-shaming the actress we got
Also, Jessica Jones if friggin waifish. And beats ass like a bawss because she's got super-strength.
I'm not trying to tiny shame her. I'm absolutely blaming the people making this movie for not understanding what I consider some of the very important visual aspects of WW that also speak to her character.
I'm hoping to be surprised by the movie but I admit I'm very pessimistic about it given the design they have put forth so far.
Jessica Jones may be a waif but she moves like she knows how to tear your car door off. Ritter absolutely sold that. And Ritter's a better actress than Gadot so
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Heh.
I like her, I think she'll do fine, the hood and smile thing is weird for a first promo image.
It's not about being tall, Tom Cruise is a tiny man and can produce amazing work as an action hero. It's about presence, and showing that the character appears like she can throw down without blinking and getting the audience to play along.
Like this
Yeah.
wonder-woman-chan...
Aquaman is too busy being all "I have tats, brah, remember when I was in Baywatch Hawaii?" and Green Lantern won't be Sean William Scott Guy Gardner, and Flash is going to be some emo kid in skinny jeans, so if Diana is the one with a smile first, punch later concept, go for it.
If that's the case then nobody at Warner is aware of the existence of The Hunger Games.
She can beat upbeat and be in a heavy action film (the last director left after being refused this IIRC) and look like a warrior who will cut you in half if she felt like it.