Yeah, I guess we haven't had anything to argue about for a week or so...
There's an argument on the horizon though. The friend my wife has accused me of crushing on-- her birthday is coming, and we're invited to two parties.
This person is a good friend of both of ours, but I met her first, she works close to me. We hang out with her and her sister.
My wife has separated me from my friends several times in the past, and I've told her she won't do it again. Thus friend being female complicates things.
My wife has had many guy friends, and I've always been cook with it.
But she is not OK at all with me being friends with a single female. We were friends before she left her husband, and my wife wanted to drop her, but said friend needed friends then.
And my wife has been friends with single men, even attractive divorced single men.
My wife has had many guy friends, and I've always been cook with it.
I hate to be an internet psychologist, but a typo can only be just so Freudian before one wonders.
Seperating you from external contacts is a huge red flag though. A huge horrible red flag, specially when it's happened without even the shitty excuse of jealousy, just... she doesn't want you to have a friend. Good on you for telling her to cut that shit out.
From what you're saying it's likely that this will indeed become a issue. From my own experience, the classic trap here is to get you to start justifying why it's OK for you to have a friend, thus implicitly conceding her right to make you do the justifying. If that kind of bullshit starts, a swift but non-aggressively voiced statement along the lines of "You don't get to dictate my friends. Get over it." is all it deserves.
Yeah, I guess we haven't had anything to argue about for a week or so...
There's an argument on the horizon though. The friend my wife has accused me of crushing on-- her birthday is coming, and we're invited to two parties.
This person is a good friend of both of ours, but I met her first, she works close to me. We hang out with her and her sister.
My wife has separated me from my friends several times in the past, and I've told her she won't do it again. Thus friend being female complicates things.
My wife has had many guy friends, and I've always been cook with it.
But she is not OK at all with me being friends with a single female. We were friends before she left her husband, and my wife wanted to drop her, but said friend needed friends then.
And my wife has been friends with single men, even attractive divorced single men.
It's hypocrisy.
I cannot highlight enough how much of a problem that is.
It's incredibly controlling and you should not let her do it.
There's an argument on the horizon though. The friend my wife has accused me of crushing on-- her birthday is coming, and we're invited to two parties.
So there's two things here...
First you need to learn to drop the "here we go again" mentality. And this applies to a lot of things in life, not just an upcoming argument with the missus. It doesn't help anyone... if you assume an argument is going to happen, it sure as shit will. Even if she approaches you on the subject and takes a reasonable approach, if you've had some time to get yourself all ramped up for it it doesn't matter how reasonable it begins because you'll already be on the defensive and will cause things to escalate. This can be avoided and if you think there's going to be a problem, show some initiative and head it off at the pass. Don't wait for things to explode. You know there's something ticking, nut up and approach her about it.
Second, if your wife has a genuine concern about someone else it probably stems from an insecurity about something. Talk to her about it... does it stem from something in her personal life and she's over reacting to your actions or are you giving something off? If you already have a foot out the door with your marriage you can 100% guarantee that she feels it and it's going to cause her some concern when you want to spend time with another woman for any reason. And again.... LISTEN to what she says. It might not be the irrational nonsense you assume it is.
Aside from that, I agree with the previous comments that you can't allow someone else to dictate who you are friends with... but maybe you should look into why there's an objection and whether or not it's a reasonable objection or one that can be addressed in a constructive manner instead of just "okay, here goes my crazy wife again with her bullshit". Try to solve your problem before it becomes one rather than just riding into it knowing it's coming down the pipe. Give some open communication a shot and see how it goes... it certainly can't be worse than the upcoming argument you think is going to happen.
Sounds like you're pretty deep into resentment territory fella.... that can be a real nail in the coffin.
...might be time to go.
Also, absolutely zero judgement here... it's understandable. Feeling like you're unable to make decisions for fear of consequences is not a very good place to be.
There's an argument on the horizon though. The friend my wife has accused me of crushing on-- her birthday is coming, and we're invited to two parties.
So there's two things here...
First you need to learn to drop the "here we go again" mentality. And this applies to a lot of things in life, not just an upcoming argument with the missus. It doesn't help anyone... if you assume an argument is going to happen, it sure as shit will. Even if she approaches you on the subject and takes a reasonable approach, if you've had some time to get yourself all ramped up for it it doesn't matter how reasonable it begins because you'll already be on the defensive and will cause things to escalate. This can be avoided and if you think there's going to be a problem, show some initiative and head it off at the pass. Don't wait for things to explode. You know there's something ticking, nut up and approach her about it.
Second, if your wife has a genuine concern about someone else it probably stems from an insecurity about something. Talk to her about it... does it stem from something in her personal life and she's over reacting to your actions or are you giving something off? If you already have a foot out the door with your marriage you can 100% guarantee that she feels it and it's going to cause her some concern when you want to spend time with another woman for any reason. And again.... LISTEN to what she says. It might not be the irrational nonsense you assume it is.
Aside from that, I agree with the previous comments that you can't allow someone else to dictate who you are friends with... but maybe you should look into why there's an objection and whether or not it's a reasonable objection or one that can be addressed in a constructive manner instead of just "okay, here goes my crazy wife again with her bullshit". Try to solve your problem before it becomes one rather than just riding into it knowing it's coming down the pipe. Give some open communication a shot and see how it goes... it certainly can't be worse than the upcoming argument you think is going to happen.
This is really great advice for a non-abusive relationship. That is not what we have here. We have an extremely abusive relationship. I couldn't give you a better text book example. It is literally what they teach you to look for. Trying to go in for reason will only dig you deeper in which is not good.
There's an argument on the horizon though. The friend my wife has accused me of crushing on-- her birthday is coming, and we're invited to two parties.
So there's two things here...
First you need to learn to drop the "here we go again" mentality. And this applies to a lot of things in life, not just an upcoming argument with the missus. It doesn't help anyone... if you assume an argument is going to happen, it sure as shit will. Even if she approaches you on the subject and takes a reasonable approach, if you've had some time to get yourself all ramped up for it it doesn't matter how reasonable it begins because you'll already be on the defensive and will cause things to escalate. This can be avoided and if you think there's going to be a problem, show some initiative and head it off at the pass. Don't wait for things to explode. You know there's something ticking, nut up and approach her about it.
Second, if your wife has a genuine concern about someone else it probably stems from an insecurity about something. Talk to her about it... does it stem from something in her personal life and she's over reacting to your actions or are you giving something off? If you already have a foot out the door with your marriage you can 100% guarantee that she feels it and it's going to cause her some concern when you want to spend time with another woman for any reason. And again.... LISTEN to what she says. It might not be the irrational nonsense you assume it is.
Aside from that, I agree with the previous comments that you can't allow someone else to dictate who you are friends with... but maybe you should look into why there's an objection and whether or not it's a reasonable objection or one that can be addressed in a constructive manner instead of just "okay, here goes my crazy wife again with her bullshit". Try to solve your problem before it becomes one rather than just riding into it knowing it's coming down the pipe. Give some open communication a shot and see how it goes... it certainly can't be worse than the upcoming argument you think is going to happen.
This is really great advice for a non-abusive relationship. That is not what we have here. We have an extremely abusive relationship. I couldn't give you a better text book example. It is literally what they teach you to look for. Trying to go in for reason will only dig you deeper in which is not good.
FinalBoss, please call your lawyer friend again.
I try to generally five the benefit of the doubt.... but after a reread of Finalboss' situation I can't help but agree with you.
No, it isn't. It's abuse. Stop being sore about stuff and start packing your things. You don't have to convince us that your wife is a bad person - we already have a mental picture of her complete with horns, tail and pitchfork. She's a bad person, and a spousal abuser.
The question is: what are you going to do about it?
I can't see her as a bad person. I still love her, she loves me. It's just, I don't know, we aren't getting along together very well.
She last slapped me last June, and said she should leave, that I deserved better, etc etc. I forgave her, but I can't forget it happened.
And that moment somehow made me realize other behavior that could be more than crankyness or moodiness or just spouse nagging.
It's OK for you to see the relationship in your own way, completely different from what everyone else on these forums has to say to you. You are the expert in your own life, in ways that no one else can be.
That said: from what you've told us here, it sounds like the most loving thing you can do for each other is to separate. You may be able to be friends later, after the dust settles, but right now freedom will do you both a world of good. Call that lawyer, if only for advice. Talk to a therapist if you can.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Everything that you have been saying the past few pages is pointing to your relationship being extremely unhealthy, based on emotional abuse and she is taking utter control away from you. This needs to stop and if she won't see counseling, you need to start heading out of the door. This is not going to improve.
That's mostly hormones. It'll fade when you get out of this situation. It's not an argument for staying together. My ex and I still loved each other but were both much happier apart. As soon as I left it felt like a weight had lifted.
I can't see her as a bad person. I still love her, she loves me. It's just, I don't know, we aren't getting along together very well.
She last slapped me last June, and said she should leave, that I deserved better, etc etc. I forgave her, but I can't forget it happened.
And that moment somehow made me realize other behavior that could be more than crankyness or moodiness or just spouse nagging.
So she hit you and managed to make it all about her? Lemme guess you spent a lot of time reassuring her that she wasn't a terrible person, or it wasn't really her fault because of xyz, or just generally apologizing for whatever you did that made her mad? Cause it sounds like she hit you and then got you to comfort her. Remember how weird it was when Cheney shot someome and got the person to apologize for being shot and that seemed really fucked up? Yeah...
I can't see her as a bad person. I still love her, she loves me. It's just, I don't know, we aren't getting along together very well.
She last slapped me last June, and said she should leave, that I deserved better, etc etc. I forgave her, but I can't forget it happened.
And that moment somehow made me realize other behavior that could be more than crankyness or moodiness or just spouse nagging.
You don't have to see her as a bad person. Applying labels like "bad" or "good" is almost never helpful anyway. What she is, is a person who is hurting you.
There could be any number of reasons for that. Maybe it stems from insecurity, or hurt, or fear. Maybe she has a pathological need for control. Maybe she doesn't want to hurt you, but literally can't help herself. It doesn't matter, because it's not the why that matters.
You are married to a person who is hurting you. She has been hurting you for a long time. She has refused to take steps to stop hurting you, so you should assume she will continue to hurt you. In one year, do you still want to be with a person who is hurting you? In five years? In ten? Do you want to give up your own health and happiness for a person who is hurting you? Do you want to live out your life on the terms of a person who is hurting you?
Especially when that person has given every indication that she does not want to change?
I just can't bail out now, when things seem OK. My birthday is this week.
The parties for the female friend went fine, for the most part. Spouse didn't understand why we would go to two parties for the same person. One was a little thing with some work friends, hosted by a single coworker who everyone tries to match make her with, the other was a family and not work friends thing. We're in both groups becuase this person and I are very close friends, I guess.
There was a bit of "I don't want to do this, I have a headache" or whatever trying to talk me out of it, but it was much milder than other times. And she seemed to have a good time.
She also made a comment after the work friends dinner about how she didn't tease me in front of my friends this time, and I expressed gratitude. But then she was somehow upset with my answer. I guess my acknowledgement that "yes, you teasing me in front of my friends bothers me" upset her.
I just can't bail out now, when things seem OK. My birthday is this week.
The parties for the female friend went fine, for the most part. Spouse didn't understand why we would go to two parties for the same person. One was a little thing with some work friends, hosted by a single coworker who everyone tries to match make her with, the other was a family and not work friends thing. We're in both groups becuase this person and I are very close friends, I guess.
There was a bit of "I don't want to do this, I have a headache" or whatever trying to talk me out of it, but it was much milder than other times. And she seemed to have a good time.
She also made a comment after the work friends dinner about how she didn't tease me in front of my friends this time, and I expressed gratitude. But then she was somehow upset with my answer. I guess my acknowledgement that "yes, you teasing me in front of my friends bothers me" upset her.
Leaving an unhealthy relationship is not "bailing out". You can leave when you need to. You can be in control of your own life. Right now, it really really seems like she's in control of your life, in so far as she influences and affects everything you do and how you think about the things you want to do. Your whole post is about her and whether she had a good time. Did you have a good time? How are YOU feeling day to day? You seem to be walking on eggshells about how she'll react to all of your choices. It doesn't have to be that way.
Her asking for credit for not being hurtful to you, then getting upset at your for how you reacted...that type of manipulation really bothers me and it's not a sign she's changing or improving, to me.
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you. But I strongly recommend therapy/counseling for yourself, it will be far more helpful than what we can tell you on here.
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you.
I just wanna chime in and say that not being confident you're in a place where you can leave is an extremely poor reason not to leave. Unless you're trying to launch a shuttle into space, in which case, yeah, there's a pretty clear best time for that.
But you're not putting someone on the moon here, you're rescuing both yourself and her from a relationship that neither of you are actually happy with, no matter what either of you try to pretend. Consider that for a moment. She may not have the capacity to actually say it, but both of you benefit from you leaving.
I just wanted to chime in and say "but my birthday is this week" sounds like an excuse to put off what is necessary. And if you're like me, after that excuse is gone you will find another, and another and another to avoid doing what you wish to avoid.
I can't tell you to end the relationship or not, but I can say don't just keep pushing things off indefinitely.
I just can't bail out now, when things seem OK. My birthday is this week.
I just want to point out that in this entire thread, the best thing you've said about your relationship is that things are going OK.
The best case scenario is that things are OK and she's not making your life difficult.
That's not how a healthy relationship works. When things are good, they should be good.
You gotta leave, dude. You sound like you're hanging on to some hope that things will be better, of that you can hang on as long as things are OK, but that's never going to happen. The best thing you can do for the both of you is leave.
Talk to your lawyer friend. If you're not ready to leave right now that's OK, but you should talk to someone who can give you some counsel we cannot. Unless she is coming forward to make positive change this is just F'd.
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you.
I just wanna chime in and say that not being confident you're in a place where you can leave is an extremely poor reason not to leave. Unless you're trying to launch a shuttle into space, in which case, yeah, there's a pretty clear best time for that.
But you're not putting someone on the moon here, you're rescuing both yourself and her from a relationship that neither of you are actually happy with, no matter what either of you try to pretend. Consider that for a moment. She may not have the capacity to actually say it, but both of you benefit from you leaving.
It's very difficult to leave this type of relationship. We're just folks on the Internet, we know what he's told us and have formed opinions on it, but it's his life and we can't know exactly what he's going through. someone kind of does need to be in the right place mentally to leave. If he's not, he's not.
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you.
I just wanna chime in and say that not being confident you're in a place where you can leave is an extremely poor reason not to leave. Unless you're trying to launch a shuttle into space, in which case, yeah, there's a pretty clear best time for that.
But you're not putting someone on the moon here, you're rescuing both yourself and her from a relationship that neither of you are actually happy with, no matter what either of you try to pretend. Consider that for a moment. She may not have the capacity to actually say it, but both of you benefit from you leaving.
It's very difficult to leave this type of relationship. We're just folks on the Internet, we know what he's told us and have formed opinions on it, but it's his life and we can't know exactly what he's going through. someone kind of does need to be in the right place mentally to leave. If he's not, he's not.
I'm not an expert on abusive relationships, but whenever I have seen a thread like this where someone is being abused and asking for advice, they are always full of excuses why "now" is not the time to leave. It's fascinating how predictable it is. I wonder if it is the kind of personality to get involved in an abusive relationship or whether being abused makes you think that way.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you.
I just wanna chime in and say that not being confident you're in a place where you can leave is an extremely poor reason not to leave. Unless you're trying to launch a shuttle into space, in which case, yeah, there's a pretty clear best time for that.
But you're not putting someone on the moon here, you're rescuing both yourself and her from a relationship that neither of you are actually happy with, no matter what either of you try to pretend. Consider that for a moment. She may not have the capacity to actually say it, but both of you benefit from you leaving.
It's very difficult to leave this type of relationship. We're just folks on the Internet, we know what he's told us and have formed opinions on it, but it's his life and we can't know exactly what he's going through. someone kind of does need to be in the right place mentally to leave. If he's not, he's not.
I'm not an expert on abusive relationships, but whenever I have seen a thread like this where someone is being abused and asking for advice, they are always full of excuses why "now" is not the time to leave. It's fascinating how predictable it is. I wonder if it is the kind of personality to get involved in an abusive relationship or whether being abused makes you think that way.
Abusers are experts and making you think you aren't good at decision-making, or at least that you "can't" make a decision that might hurt the abuser. The abuser has colored all your perceptions about what is going on in the relationship. Even just getting a temporary break (visiting family, say) from the abuser can really clear the fog that the abuser created. But while you're right there in that fog, it's really, really hard to break away. This is why a therapist can be so helpful, they help clear that fog for you.
And FinalBoss, you don't have to think of her as doing any of this on purpose if that thought process doesn't make you comfortable. Someone can still be emotionally abusing you without "meaning" to - often people who survived abuse themselves end up with unhealthy (but necessary at the time) coping strategies that they carry with them without knowing they have done so. This is a concept known as "fleas" (that you pick up from the abusive relationship, see?) and I didn't even realize I had those myself until I read about the concept.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you.
I just wanna chime in and say that not being confident you're in a place where you can leave is an extremely poor reason not to leave. Unless you're trying to launch a shuttle into space, in which case, yeah, there's a pretty clear best time for that.
But you're not putting someone on the moon here, you're rescuing both yourself and her from a relationship that neither of you are actually happy with, no matter what either of you try to pretend. Consider that for a moment. She may not have the capacity to actually say it, but both of you benefit from you leaving.
It's very difficult to leave this type of relationship. We're just folks on the Internet, we know what he's told us and have formed opinions on it, but it's his life and we can't know exactly what he's going through. someone kind of does need to be in the right place mentally to leave. If he's not, he's not.
I'm not an expert on abusive relationships, but whenever I have seen a thread like this where someone is being abused and asking for advice, they are always full of excuses why "now" is not the time to leave. It's fascinating how predictable it is. I wonder if it is the kind of personality to get involved in an abusive relationship or whether being abused makes you think that way.
I am the closest this thread has to it I believe (though others are extremely insightful so maybe not?) and it just doesn't work to tell them what to do. Even if you can get someone to listen to you they are switching from giving their power from one person to another which isn't any better.
This is not something you tackle head on. You take it slow and play the long game. It usually involves losing. This sucks. But you push on because the next person might be ready. The person who goes back might be bolstered a bit and see more clearly what is going on. Go for the little victories.
Remember you are asking someone to throw away their entire life and do something they have often been convinced they can't do. Asking the seemingly impossible must always be done with the understanding failure can happen. You just have to wait for them to understand the amazing wonders they are capable of. Survivors are always the strongest, cause they know how to survive the worst.
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you.
I just wanna chime in and say that not being confident you're in a place where you can leave is an extremely poor reason not to leave. Unless you're trying to launch a shuttle into space, in which case, yeah, there's a pretty clear best time for that.
But you're not putting someone on the moon here, you're rescuing both yourself and her from a relationship that neither of you are actually happy with, no matter what either of you try to pretend. Consider that for a moment. She may not have the capacity to actually say it, but both of you benefit from you leaving.
It's very difficult to leave this type of relationship. We're just folks on the Internet, we know what he's told us and have formed opinions on it, but it's his life and we can't know exactly what he's going through. someone kind of does need to be in the right place mentally to leave. If he's not, he's not.
I'm not an expert on abusive relationships, but whenever I have seen a thread like this where someone is being abused and asking for advice, they are always full of excuses why "now" is not the time to leave. It's fascinating how predictable it is. I wonder if it is the kind of personality to get involved in an abusive relationship or whether being abused makes you think that way.
The latter. I can't overstate how much of a mindfuck it is to be in an abusive relationship.
There are people who develop a pattern of getting involved with abusers, but often (though not always) it's because they never had a healthy relationship modeled for them to begin with. But you don't have to be "damaged" to date an abuser. They're predators. They test prospective victims and push boundaries to see what they can get away with. If one mark isn't buying it, they move on to another. Once they have someone on the hook, they start with the gaslighting and the little cruelties designed to undermine the victim's sense of self. An unkind word or a look of dismissal is waved off as the victim being "too sensitive" or unable to take a joke. If they move too fast and the victim balks, they'll dial it back for a bit, turn on the charm, and then ramp up the abuse again, more slowly this time.
Gaslighting in particular is insidious because it's much easier to believe that you really are mistaken than that someone would deliberately lie to you over something so (seemingly) trivial. After all, why on earth would somebody do that? Which is more likely? And once you start thinking that your memory and perceptions are unreliable about little things (like who said what last night), it's very easy to start doubting yourself about the big things. So when the abuser tells you're stupid, or that you can't do anything right, you wonder if maybe they're right. After all, your memory isn't as reliable as you thought it was, is it?
And the more you doubt your perceptions, and your mind, and your very competence, the more you start to believe that this person is a saint for putting up with you at all. It makes perfect sense when they tell you that you'll never find anyone else with that kind of patience. They tell you that they only hurt you because they're so sick of dealing with your shit that they can't help it, and you nod along, because even though it feels kind of wrong, you can't quite remember why (your memory's shit these days anyway).
And then that same person will turn around and say they're sorry, say they love you, that's why they stay, they care so much about you that they're willing to be with you even though you make them so angry, and if you left them they'd be devastated. You're the only thing they have, and they'll kill themselves if you take that away. And by that time you're so starved for affection - any affection - that you believe that too.
You know you didn't always feel this awful, but you can't really remember what that was like, so mostly you just kind of drift along wondering how the hell you got here.
...I mean, every case is different, but those are the broad strokes.
Calica on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I forgot to add something about my "maybe she doesn't "mean" to do it" comment. I didn't intend that as a reason for you to stay with her. Because if she does have "fleas", then it's going to be much, much harder for her to break those patterns than it would be for someone who's doing it "on purpose." She won't know she's being manipulative, and so she won't understand what's wrong with it, may even think that calling it manipulative or emotional abuse is "overreacting." In the end it's irrelevant why she's doing it. The important thing is that neither of you can get to a healthy place while you're in that relationship. You can't help her "fix herself" (if that's your goal) by staying to be emotionally abused. She, at this moment, doesn't even see the need for therapy. You staying will only confirm her in that belief.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
@FinalBoss I've been where you are, and I know how hard it is. You have to leave. I know you feel you can't, or you shouldn't, or any number of things that prevent you from freeing yourself from the situation. It's scary, and it's hard, and it HURTS, but you need to leave. You can leave. You may not believe it, but you can. You are stronger, smarter, and more resilient than you know.
I know you say that now things seem OK, but we both know they're not. Do you feel the lurking dread? The feeling that even when things are going good that one misstep on your part will cause everything to come crashing down? That you have to be so very very careful to make sure that things keep seeming ok? That if you don't, she will get mad. And you really really don't want to make her mad?
That's a bad thing. You shouldn't have to feel that way. She shouldn't make you feel that way. But she does, and she always will.
You have to get away from her.
Please believe me when I say that if you do, there is a whole life full of happiness and peace that you can't even imagine right now just waiting for you. I know because I couldn't imagine it existed until I left my husband and found it for myself. You can too.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Hey Finalboss, have you made a decision on private counseling yet? I'm not gonna try to convince you if you say it's not for you, but I noticed you haven't really addressed it one way or the other. No need to rush into this, but if you need decision making or logistics help on this action, this is probably something the thread can help you with as long as you get the process started and lay out your thoughts. I will say it's the most non-committed action you can try right now.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
If I go to private counseling about my marriage, I might as well call it off, and I'm not ready to do that.
So what are you hoping to get from the thread then? I'm not being crass or cruel here, I'm honestly asking.
You are clearly unhappy and are always walking on eggshells, but you won't seek counseling or therapy to seek help nor are you willing to leave. So what do you want? Just a place to vent and complain about how unhappy you are (which is cool, if so, but it might be useful to know that is what you are looking for)? Your initial question was asking "What should I do?" and you've gotten quite a bit of supportive feedback in here from experts in counseling, people who have gone through similar things, and plenty of supportive folk who have tried to help. You haven't seemed to want to do any of the suggestions in here.
So what do you actually want to do? What questions do you actually have for the thread at this point? Knowing that will help us give you useful advice that isn't just rehashing the same (quantifiably good) advice that has already gone through on the previous pages.
So what do you want? Just a place to vent and complain about how unhappy you are (which is cool, if so, but it might be useful to know that is what you are looking for)
Just to clarify, for the H/A thread to stay open, that is not actually cool, you need to be seeking advice.
I can't tell if "I might as well call it off" is defeatist behaivor on your end, or being terrified of your wife's reaction to the fact that you plan to go without her. It sounds like from this thread, that it might be the latter, and that should be a really eye opening realisation about how she treats you. If it's so bad that the idea of getting yourself a place where you can simply talk to a 3rd party about how you feel or what's going on is that threatening to the marriage, that's a dangerous place to be.
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There's an argument on the horizon though. The friend my wife has accused me of crushing on-- her birthday is coming, and we're invited to two parties.
This person is a good friend of both of ours, but I met her first, she works close to me. We hang out with her and her sister.
My wife has separated me from my friends several times in the past, and I've told her she won't do it again. Thus friend being female complicates things.
My wife has had many guy friends, and I've always been cook with it.
But she is not OK at all with me being friends with a single female. We were friends before she left her husband, and my wife wanted to drop her, but said friend needed friends then.
And my wife has been friends with single men, even attractive divorced single men.
It's hypocrisy.
I hate to be an internet psychologist, but a typo can only be just so Freudian before one wonders.
Seperating you from external contacts is a huge red flag though. A huge horrible red flag, specially when it's happened without even the shitty excuse of jealousy, just... she doesn't want you to have a friend. Good on you for telling her to cut that shit out.
From what you're saying it's likely that this will indeed become a issue. From my own experience, the classic trap here is to get you to start justifying why it's OK for you to have a friend, thus implicitly conceding her right to make you do the justifying. If that kind of bullshit starts, a swift but non-aggressively voiced statement along the lines of "You don't get to dictate my friends. Get over it." is all it deserves.
I cannot highlight enough how much of a problem that is.
It's incredibly controlling and you should not let her do it.
So there's two things here...
First you need to learn to drop the "here we go again" mentality. And this applies to a lot of things in life, not just an upcoming argument with the missus. It doesn't help anyone... if you assume an argument is going to happen, it sure as shit will. Even if she approaches you on the subject and takes a reasonable approach, if you've had some time to get yourself all ramped up for it it doesn't matter how reasonable it begins because you'll already be on the defensive and will cause things to escalate. This can be avoided and if you think there's going to be a problem, show some initiative and head it off at the pass. Don't wait for things to explode. You know there's something ticking, nut up and approach her about it.
Second, if your wife has a genuine concern about someone else it probably stems from an insecurity about something. Talk to her about it... does it stem from something in her personal life and she's over reacting to your actions or are you giving something off? If you already have a foot out the door with your marriage you can 100% guarantee that she feels it and it's going to cause her some concern when you want to spend time with another woman for any reason. And again.... LISTEN to what she says. It might not be the irrational nonsense you assume it is.
Aside from that, I agree with the previous comments that you can't allow someone else to dictate who you are friends with... but maybe you should look into why there's an objection and whether or not it's a reasonable objection or one that can be addressed in a constructive manner instead of just "okay, here goes my crazy wife again with her bullshit". Try to solve your problem before it becomes one rather than just riding into it knowing it's coming down the pipe. Give some open communication a shot and see how it goes... it certainly can't be worse than the upcoming argument you think is going to happen.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
And I get nowhere with the talks about this female friend.
Things are fine if it's my spouse's idea to hang out with her. Lots of things are OK with her if it's her idea to do the thing.
...might be time to go.
Also, absolutely zero judgement here... it's understandable. Feeling like you're unable to make decisions for fear of consequences is not a very good place to be.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
This is really great advice for a non-abusive relationship. That is not what we have here. We have an extremely abusive relationship. I couldn't give you a better text book example. It is literally what they teach you to look for. Trying to go in for reason will only dig you deeper in which is not good.
FinalBoss, please call your lawyer friend again.
I try to generally five the benefit of the doubt.... but after a reread of Finalboss' situation I can't help but agree with you.
You should probably call that lawyer homeskillet
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
You can't force someone to compromise. You shouldn't either. But you don't have to put up with this kind of behaviour.
This sounds like an incredibly abusive relationship where things are only ok when she gets what she wants.
You do not need to tolerate this. If she doesn't want to make things better, than she has every right to dig her heels in and say no.
I'm not saying this lightly but
You need to find a lawyer (NOT the one in your town, go with someone completely new) and initiate divorce proceedings
No, it isn't. It's abuse. Stop being sore about stuff and start packing your things. You don't have to convince us that your wife is a bad person - we already have a mental picture of her complete with horns, tail and pitchfork. She's a bad person, and a spousal abuser.
The question is: what are you going to do about it?
She last slapped me last June, and said she should leave, that I deserved better, etc etc. I forgave her, but I can't forget it happened.
And that moment somehow made me realize other behavior that could be more than crankyness or moodiness or just spouse nagging.
It's OK for you to see the relationship in your own way, completely different from what everyone else on these forums has to say to you. You are the expert in your own life, in ways that no one else can be.
That said: from what you've told us here, it sounds like the most loving thing you can do for each other is to separate. You may be able to be friends later, after the dust settles, but right now freedom will do you both a world of good. Call that lawyer, if only for advice. Talk to a therapist if you can.
Mate, you're not even making her happy with this situation.
That's mostly hormones. It'll fade when you get out of this situation. It's not an argument for staying together. My ex and I still loved each other but were both much happier apart. As soon as I left it felt like a weight had lifted.
So she hit you and managed to make it all about her? Lemme guess you spent a lot of time reassuring her that she wasn't a terrible person, or it wasn't really her fault because of xyz, or just generally apologizing for whatever you did that made her mad? Cause it sounds like she hit you and then got you to comfort her. Remember how weird it was when Cheney shot someome and got the person to apologize for being shot and that seemed really fucked up? Yeah...
edit: (article cut out because there are better)
It's something many of us have done. I know I have.
Please google it and see if you can relate
There could be any number of reasons for that. Maybe it stems from insecurity, or hurt, or fear. Maybe she has a pathological need for control. Maybe she doesn't want to hurt you, but literally can't help herself. It doesn't matter, because it's not the why that matters.
You are married to a person who is hurting you. She has been hurting you for a long time. She has refused to take steps to stop hurting you, so you should assume she will continue to hurt you. In one year, do you still want to be with a person who is hurting you? In five years? In ten? Do you want to give up your own health and happiness for a person who is hurting you? Do you want to live out your life on the terms of a person who is hurting you?
Especially when that person has given every indication that she does not want to change?
I just can't bail out now, when things seem OK. My birthday is this week.
The parties for the female friend went fine, for the most part. Spouse didn't understand why we would go to two parties for the same person. One was a little thing with some work friends, hosted by a single coworker who everyone tries to match make her with, the other was a family and not work friends thing. We're in both groups becuase this person and I are very close friends, I guess.
There was a bit of "I don't want to do this, I have a headache" or whatever trying to talk me out of it, but it was much milder than other times. And she seemed to have a good time.
She also made a comment after the work friends dinner about how she didn't tease me in front of my friends this time, and I expressed gratitude. But then she was somehow upset with my answer. I guess my acknowledgement that "yes, you teasing me in front of my friends bothers me" upset her.
Leaving an unhealthy relationship is not "bailing out". You can leave when you need to. You can be in control of your own life. Right now, it really really seems like she's in control of your life, in so far as she influences and affects everything you do and how you think about the things you want to do. Your whole post is about her and whether she had a good time. Did you have a good time? How are YOU feeling day to day? You seem to be walking on eggshells about how she'll react to all of your choices. It doesn't have to be that way.
Her asking for credit for not being hurtful to you, then getting upset at your for how you reacted...that type of manipulation really bothers me and it's not a sign she's changing or improving, to me.
If you don't feel like you are in a place where you can leave right now, that's certainly okay. It's up to you. But I strongly recommend therapy/counseling for yourself, it will be far more helpful than what we can tell you on here.
I just wanna chime in and say that not being confident you're in a place where you can leave is an extremely poor reason not to leave. Unless you're trying to launch a shuttle into space, in which case, yeah, there's a pretty clear best time for that.
But you're not putting someone on the moon here, you're rescuing both yourself and her from a relationship that neither of you are actually happy with, no matter what either of you try to pretend. Consider that for a moment. She may not have the capacity to actually say it, but both of you benefit from you leaving.
I can't tell you to end the relationship or not, but I can say don't just keep pushing things off indefinitely.
I just want to point out that in this entire thread, the best thing you've said about your relationship is that things are going OK.
The best case scenario is that things are OK and she's not making your life difficult.
That's not how a healthy relationship works. When things are good, they should be good.
You gotta leave, dude. You sound like you're hanging on to some hope that things will be better, of that you can hang on as long as things are OK, but that's never going to happen. The best thing you can do for the both of you is leave.
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It's very difficult to leave this type of relationship. We're just folks on the Internet, we know what he's told us and have formed opinions on it, but it's his life and we can't know exactly what he's going through. someone kind of does need to be in the right place mentally to leave. If he's not, he's not.
I'm not an expert on abusive relationships, but whenever I have seen a thread like this where someone is being abused and asking for advice, they are always full of excuses why "now" is not the time to leave. It's fascinating how predictable it is. I wonder if it is the kind of personality to get involved in an abusive relationship or whether being abused makes you think that way.
Abusers are experts and making you think you aren't good at decision-making, or at least that you "can't" make a decision that might hurt the abuser. The abuser has colored all your perceptions about what is going on in the relationship. Even just getting a temporary break (visiting family, say) from the abuser can really clear the fog that the abuser created. But while you're right there in that fog, it's really, really hard to break away. This is why a therapist can be so helpful, they help clear that fog for you.
And FinalBoss, you don't have to think of her as doing any of this on purpose if that thought process doesn't make you comfortable. Someone can still be emotionally abusing you without "meaning" to - often people who survived abuse themselves end up with unhealthy (but necessary at the time) coping strategies that they carry with them without knowing they have done so. This is a concept known as "fleas" (that you pick up from the abusive relationship, see?) and I didn't even realize I had those myself until I read about the concept.
I am the closest this thread has to it I believe (though others are extremely insightful so maybe not?) and it just doesn't work to tell them what to do. Even if you can get someone to listen to you they are switching from giving their power from one person to another which isn't any better.
This is not something you tackle head on. You take it slow and play the long game. It usually involves losing. This sucks. But you push on because the next person might be ready. The person who goes back might be bolstered a bit and see more clearly what is going on. Go for the little victories.
Remember you are asking someone to throw away their entire life and do something they have often been convinced they can't do. Asking the seemingly impossible must always be done with the understanding failure can happen. You just have to wait for them to understand the amazing wonders they are capable of. Survivors are always the strongest, cause they know how to survive the worst.
The latter. I can't overstate how much of a mindfuck it is to be in an abusive relationship.
There are people who develop a pattern of getting involved with abusers, but often (though not always) it's because they never had a healthy relationship modeled for them to begin with. But you don't have to be "damaged" to date an abuser. They're predators. They test prospective victims and push boundaries to see what they can get away with. If one mark isn't buying it, they move on to another. Once they have someone on the hook, they start with the gaslighting and the little cruelties designed to undermine the victim's sense of self. An unkind word or a look of dismissal is waved off as the victim being "too sensitive" or unable to take a joke. If they move too fast and the victim balks, they'll dial it back for a bit, turn on the charm, and then ramp up the abuse again, more slowly this time.
Gaslighting in particular is insidious because it's much easier to believe that you really are mistaken than that someone would deliberately lie to you over something so (seemingly) trivial. After all, why on earth would somebody do that? Which is more likely? And once you start thinking that your memory and perceptions are unreliable about little things (like who said what last night), it's very easy to start doubting yourself about the big things. So when the abuser tells you're stupid, or that you can't do anything right, you wonder if maybe they're right. After all, your memory isn't as reliable as you thought it was, is it?
And the more you doubt your perceptions, and your mind, and your very competence, the more you start to believe that this person is a saint for putting up with you at all. It makes perfect sense when they tell you that you'll never find anyone else with that kind of patience. They tell you that they only hurt you because they're so sick of dealing with your shit that they can't help it, and you nod along, because even though it feels kind of wrong, you can't quite remember why (your memory's shit these days anyway).
And then that same person will turn around and say they're sorry, say they love you, that's why they stay, they care so much about you that they're willing to be with you even though you make them so angry, and if you left them they'd be devastated. You're the only thing they have, and they'll kill themselves if you take that away. And by that time you're so starved for affection - any affection - that you believe that too.
You know you didn't always feel this awful, but you can't really remember what that was like, so mostly you just kind of drift along wondering how the hell you got here.
...I mean, every case is different, but those are the broad strokes.
I know you say that now things seem OK, but we both know they're not. Do you feel the lurking dread? The feeling that even when things are going good that one misstep on your part will cause everything to come crashing down? That you have to be so very very careful to make sure that things keep seeming ok? That if you don't, she will get mad. And you really really don't want to make her mad?
That's a bad thing. You shouldn't have to feel that way. She shouldn't make you feel that way. But she does, and she always will.
You have to get away from her.
Please believe me when I say that if you do, there is a whole life full of happiness and peace that you can't even imagine right now just waiting for you. I know because I couldn't imagine it existed until I left my husband and found it for myself. You can too.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
So what are you hoping to get from the thread then? I'm not being crass or cruel here, I'm honestly asking.
You are clearly unhappy and are always walking on eggshells, but you won't seek counseling or therapy to seek help nor are you willing to leave. So what do you want? Just a place to vent and complain about how unhappy you are (which is cool, if so, but it might be useful to know that is what you are looking for)? Your initial question was asking "What should I do?" and you've gotten quite a bit of supportive feedback in here from experts in counseling, people who have gone through similar things, and plenty of supportive folk who have tried to help. You haven't seemed to want to do any of the suggestions in here.
So what do you actually want to do? What questions do you actually have for the thread at this point? Knowing that will help us give you useful advice that isn't just rehashing the same (quantifiably good) advice that has already gone through on the previous pages.
Just to clarify, for the H/A thread to stay open, that is not actually cool, you need to be seeking advice.
I can't tell if "I might as well call it off" is defeatist behaivor on your end, or being terrified of your wife's reaction to the fact that you plan to go without her. It sounds like from this thread, that it might be the latter, and that should be a really eye opening realisation about how she treats you. If it's so bad that the idea of getting yourself a place where you can simply talk to a 3rd party about how you feel or what's going on is that threatening to the marriage, that's a dangerous place to be.
You all helped me realize I'm not nuts. My marriage isn't healthy.
I'm just not ready to end it.
I'm sorry.
Thanks for your time and advice.
I'm going to close this thread but at any point that you feel you'd like to reopen it, just send me a quick PM, and I'll be glad to.
You deserve a happy life. I hope one day you believe that as much as we do, and take the steps to find help.