“The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it,” she responded. “It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made.”
Does this lady know what whitewashing is? Of course they're not going to have her play an Asian man. That does not mean this role isn't being white washed. It's not a coincidence the Ancient One in the comics is in the role she's in. That said, I don't expect her to outright say what they're doing isn't whitewashing since that's opening her and Marvel to criticism for it, or rip the company for whitewashing the role.
The script was finished with her in mind so yeah it never featured an Asian man. She's not wrong there.
I also don't expect her to accept a role knowing it's entire history or anything but once she's on set and this issue comes up maybe do some damned research instead of defending a poor choice
"Yes, this movie sucks and is racist" said no one who is hired again.
How do you imagine Swinton responding such that it would satisfy the maxim of not defending "a poor choice"?
" I've done research on the character and I can see why people are upset I think they chose to avoid a harmful stereotype and I respect that"
A) that's still defending the choice that gets turned into a zillion clickbait headlines "Star of Marvel's upcoming Dr Strange admits casting choice is racist", '"I can see why people are upset", Swinton on Whitewashed casting choice" etc. etc.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
So, just for kicks, if it's a diverse cast that's the reason it did well, but if it's an all-white cast there's no evidence supporting it?
As far as I can tell the argument is more "A diverse cast does not mean your movie fails" and that whitewashing every single movie isn't a good idea, emphasized in such disasters in Gods of Egypt, Avatar: The Last Airbender and Exodus*. Generally speaking, if the movie is all white people will find every excuse to not blame the complete whitewashing but scripts, the effects or literally anything else. If it's a movie with minority leads? Obviously they were why it failed or wasn't as profitable (obviously).
Tons of movies fail or don't do anywhere near as well as they were anticipated to or hoped to do by studios. It's curiously just the ones where a minority actor was lead where that ends up being the key reason for its failure, despite the numerous counter examples of movies that did well and had minorities. Not every movie is TFA or Episode IV or Avatar in success, after-all. For a slightly different tangent than this thread, nobody in Hollywood thought an R-Rated Deadpool was going to do anything other than fail miserably.
*And I suspect we'll be able to add Ghost in the Shell to this ignoble list in future.
Hollywood is horrible... I don't think anyone here will disagree with that. Their practices are terrible and their social awareness is absolute shit, with some exceptions.
Much like the rest of the world that is horrible, Hollywood will often scapegoat the crap out of the easiest target... which is why Snyder is still in charge of the DCU and now Eisenberg is "Luthor Jr".
“The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it,” she responded. “It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made.”
Does this lady know what whitewashing is? Of course they're not going to have her play an Asian man. That does not mean this role isn't being white washed. It's not a coincidence the Ancient One in the comics is in the role she's in. That said, I don't expect her to outright say what they're doing isn't whitewashing since that's opening her and Marvel to criticism for it, or rip the company for whitewashing the role.
The script was finished with her in mind so yeah it never featured an Asian man. She's not wrong there.
I also don't expect her to accept a role knowing it's entire history or anything but once she's on set and this issue comes up maybe do some damned research instead of defending a poor choice
Swinton being a poor choice for TAO is clearly a matter of opinion.
She gave a non answer. That's basically what any competent celebrity asked that question should do. Just like athletes "ignore off the field stuff, try to just focus the game" Or any other cliche.
The people whose job out is to answer those questions are spokespeople. Everyone else should just give a meaningless response and then talk about something else.
A lot of this argument keeps circling back to profit, and "what can be done"
It's kinda simple, stop supporting movies that offend you, start supporting the ones that are making progress.
Which is the real problem in this era of hatewatching movies, and the " Well I gotta see how bad it is" , Hollywood execs don't have a spreedsheet for ticket sales going " Well this 25% chunk bought tickets, but they bought them ironically!" they just see ## of sales.
A lot of this argument keeps circling back to profit, and "what can be done"
It's kinda simple, stop supporting movies that offend you, start supporting the ones that are making progress.
Which is the real problem in this era of hatewatching movies, and the " Well I gotta see how bad it is" , Hollywood execs don't have a spreedsheet for ticket sales going " Well this 25% chunk bought tickets, but they bought them ironically!" they just see ## of sales.
Unfortunately even if fans don't support movies like this Marvel is a big enough brand it won't make a dint in profits. An Ender's Game boycott needs to happen to even make them slightly concerned, but that almost never occurs. That's why it's a bad idea to rely on boycotts to pressure Hollywood.
“The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it,” she responded. “It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made.”
Does this lady know what whitewashing is? Of course they're not going to have her play an Asian man. That does not mean this role isn't being white washed. It's not a coincidence the Ancient One in the comics is in the role she's in. That said, I don't expect her to outright say what they're doing isn't whitewashing since that's opening her and Marvel to criticism for it, or rip the company for whitewashing the role.
The script was finished with her in mind so yeah it never featured an Asian man. She's not wrong there.
I also don't expect her to accept a role knowing it's entire history or anything but once she's on set and this issue comes up maybe do some damned research instead of defending a poor choice
Swinton being a poor choice for TAO is clearly a matter of opinion.
She is and she isn't. She's technically a good choice, because she's an awesome actress - but she isn't the only actor in the world capable of being a great Ancient One. The problem is Marvel didn't bother searching elsewhere to find out, or if they they did they're not talking about it.
“The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it,” she responded. “It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made.”
Does this lady know what whitewashing is? Of course they're not going to have her play an Asian man. That does not mean this role isn't being white washed. It's not a coincidence the Ancient One in the comics is in the role she's in. That said, I don't expect her to outright say what they're doing isn't whitewashing since that's opening her and Marvel to criticism for it, or rip the company for whitewashing the role.
The script was finished with her in mind so yeah it never featured an Asian man. She's not wrong there.
I also don't expect her to accept a role knowing it's entire history or anything but once she's on set and this issue comes up maybe do some damned research instead of defending a poor choice
A technically that means they never bothered looking elsewhere, and if she had refused they'd have rewritten it for her replacement. Her being ignorant of this being a case of whitewashing does not mean it isn't whitewashing. She has to know at least by now the context for the role, yet we get crickets from her over said whitewashing. Because I assume she's a professional enough actress to not openly state to the press that yeah, this is whitewashing. Not does she need to know the character's entire history to understand what's going on, putting in Ancient One on Google or wikipedia will give her all she needs to know. I am curious what Marvel and the director and writer told her about the role, because I have absolutely no clue what they told her about it or why she doesn't know what's going on since we do know their writer is up to date with the character. Or she's lying through her teeth.
“The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it,” she responded. “It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made.”
Does this lady know what whitewashing is? Of course they're not going to have her play an Asian man. That does not mean this role isn't being white washed. It's not a coincidence the Ancient One in the comics is in the role she's in. That said, I don't expect her to outright say what they're doing isn't whitewashing since that's opening her and Marvel to criticism for it, or rip the company for whitewashing the role.
The script was finished with her in mind so yeah it never featured an Asian man. She's not wrong there.
I also don't expect her to accept a role knowing it's entire history or anything but once she's on set and this issue comes up maybe do some damned research instead of defending a poor choice
"Yes, this movie sucks and is racist" said no one who is hired again.
How do you imagine Swinton responding such that it would satisfy the maxim of not defending "a poor choice"?
" I've done research on the character and I can see why people are upset I think they chose to avoid a harmful stereotype and I respect that"
Yeah that would go over well.
It'd go over better than what they're doing. What gets me is how badly they're trying to defend their decisions - c'mon guys give us a little credit. I'd also like to know exactly why the writer thought they cast her, yet the studio says otherwise. Is one or both lying? I don't recall marvel going into details about why they hired her over an Asian actor.
She gave a non answer. That's basically what any competent celebrity asked that question should do. Just like athletes "ignore off the field stuff, try to just focus the game" Or any other cliche.
The people whose job out is to answer those questions are spokespeople. Everyone else should just give a meaningless response and then talk about something else.
Actually no, in Hollywood with actors, directors and writers this is part of the job.
“The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it,” she responded. “It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made.”
Does this lady know what whitewashing is? Of course they're not going to have her play an Asian man. That does not mean this role isn't being white washed. It's not a coincidence the Ancient One in the comics is in the role she's in. That said, I don't expect her to outright say what they're doing isn't whitewashing since that's opening her and Marvel to criticism for it, or rip the company for whitewashing the role.
I know, right? She shouldn't have accepted a role that was clearly supposed to go to a man.
Or, wait, I meant Asian. Why does it sound bad one way and not the other way?
Also, can we maybe acknowledge that most non-white comic book characters from that time period were written as offensive racial stereotypes? They're not going to make The Ancient One a Tibetan monk from central casting for the same reason that they didn't make The Mandarin the ridiculous Fu Manchu villain that he was in the comics.
If the logical conclusion of this is that they need to pull from source material more recent than 1960 to avoid being offensive, then maybe they should do that?
Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, this appeal to the source material argument is just as dumb here as it was when people complained about casting Elba as Heimdall.
I know, right? She shouldn't have accepted a role that was clearly supposed to go to a man.
Or, wait, I meant Asian.
They could have chosen another actress who wasn't white, you know. Why is it that people think criticizing Tilde's role for whitewashing immediately assumes it's because we don't want a women there? No one has said the role couldn't gone to a woman, and Tilda isn't the only woman in Hollywood to do it. The screenwriter himself admitted Michelle Yeoh would be awesome in the role. Not that it has to be Yeoh. Is there a specific reason the only person on the planet for this role has to be Tilda?
Why does it sound bad one way and not the other way?
Context, mainly. Hollywood hasn't been turning white roles into Blacks or Asians for decades with regularity for obviously problematic reasons - Marvel certainly hasn't.
Also, can we maybe acknowledge that most non-white comic book characters from that time period were written as offensive racial stereotypes? They're not going to make The Ancient One a Tibetan monk from central casting for the same reason that they didn't make The Mandarin the ridiculous Fu Manchu villain that he was in the comics.
You're not saying anything anyone disagrees with here, but the answer to this isn't to whitewash anything problematic since they don't even do that half the time anyway. They don't do this with every role, of course because even they know it isn't necessary. RE: Wong.
And you do know that the characters have evolved since then, right? In comics and other media? They can also do their own updates, which they do anyway. There is absolutely no reason whitewashing was the only solution to this, and no there are no choices that please everyone. They don't need to make the Ancient One a Tibetan monk either*, in fact they already offered a good out by making him/her an ancient mysterious being - which could be any shape, so why choose a white person? Why not Indian? Why not Black? Why not South Korean? Why not all of the above?
Nor does a role have to be an offensive racial stereotype because an Asian is portraying it. Were you offended by Helen Cho and Daisy Johnson, as well? They can do whatever they want with these characters, and they do great stuff occasionally by going in crazy directions, but the movie branch does go overboard with white actors being the answer to everything. Especially when they have a big problem with minority leads and Asian representation. This'd also be less of an issue if they cast an non-white Stephen. Imagine that, a Marvel movie where a minority lead has a minority mentor. To date I can't recall the movies doing this. Civil War spoilers
The exception that comes to mind is T'Challa with T'Chaka, and Black panther wasn't a lead in that movie.
* I've been looking over his wikipedia and found nothing to show he's Tibetan in it. He's canonically from the fictional land of Kamar-Taj, a secret land within the Himalayas. Where's this idea that he was a Tibetan monk come from?
edit: Another change they could have made was switch the location to Japan, South Korea, Philippines, India etc and have the appropriate actors/actresses from there.
If the logical conclusion of this is that they need to pull from source material more recent than 1960 to avoid being offensive, then maybe they should do that?
There are many ways to do this than whitewashing roles. This shouldn't be the go-to method for fixing roles like this, the tv branches certainly don't do this anywhere near as much - why aren't the movie branch following their lead? The Ancient One also didn't stop being used after the 60's too - use whatever good updates from the comics or drop it all and come up with their own direction that doesn't end up with a white actor taking a minority's role. And for the love of god start hiring more Asian actors in the movies, it's getting embarrassing how bad they are at this. It's not like it hasn't worked out for them in the past
TAO isn't going to be Asian because China would throw a shitfit if there was even a hint that he could be described as Tibetan. That means the entire East Asian races was out of the running before the movie was even written. It was that or say goodbye to the Chinese movie market.
You can bitch about Marvel, but that was them bowing to censorship from an Asian source, not them deciding that TAO should go to a white woman. Bitch about them bowing to censorship, but not whitewashing.
Ditto the Mandarin.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
TAO isn't going to be Asian because China would throw a shitfit if there was even a hint that he could be described as Tibetan. That means the entire East Asian races was out of the running before the movie was even written. It was that or say goodbye to the Chinese movie market.
You can bitch about Marvel, but that was them bowing to censorship from an Asian source, not them deciding that TAO should go to a white woman. Bitch about them bowing to censorship, but not whitewashing.
Ditto the Mandarin.
Do we have any cites for this, aside from the writer? Who didn't exactly give us any proof of his half baked theory.
edit: Doesn't China ban any movie that has magic in it?
edit: Also, if they truly wanted China's dollars shouldn't they have cast a Chinese actor or actress, rather than Tilda? If Marvel truly felt they were a high priority it seems odd they'd try to be neutral. It's not like a Chinese actor/actress wouldn't get people into theaters with the role, even with the problematic implications it bought.
edit: There are many ways they could have bowed to that pressure without whitewashing the role, as I outlined upthread. That was hardly their only option.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
She gave a non answer. That's basically what any competent celebrity asked that question should do. Just like athletes "ignore off the field stuff, try to just focus the game" Or any other cliche.
The people whose job out is to answer those questions are spokespeople. Everyone else should just give a meaningless response and then talk about something else.
Actually no, in Hollywood with actors, directors and writers this is part of the job.
Uh no. They have to do a press tour to hype the movie. That doesn't mean their job is to actually say anything.
She gave a non answer. That's basically what any competent celebrity asked that question should do. Just like athletes "ignore off the field stuff, try to just focus the game" Or any other cliche.
The people whose job out is to answer those questions are spokespeople. Everyone else should just give a meaningless response and then talk about something else.
Actually no, in Hollywood with actors, directors and writers this is part of the job.
Uh no. They have to do a press tour to hype the movie. That doesn't mean their job is to actually say anything.
But when they don't do it right the public don't like it. Saying nothing leaves the audience unsatisfied.
TAO isn't going to be Asian because China would throw a shitfit if there was even a hint that he could be described as Tibetan. That means the entire East Asian races was out of the running before the movie was even written. It was that or say goodbye to the Chinese movie market.
You can bitch about Marvel, but that was them bowing to censorship from an Asian source, not them deciding that TAO should go to a white woman. Bitch about them bowing to censorship, but not whitewashing.
Ditto the Mandarin.
Do we have any cites for this, aside from the writer? Who didn't exactly give us any proof of his half baked theory.
edit: Doesn't China ban any movie that has magic in it?
edit: Also, if they truly wanted China's dollars shouldn't they have cast a Chinese actor or actress, rather than Tilda? If Marvel truly felt they were a high priority it seems odd they'd try to be neutral. It's not like a Chinese actor/actress wouldn't get people into theaters with the role, even with the problematic implications it bought.
edit: There are many ways they could have bowed to that pressure without whitewashing the role, as I outlined upthread. That was hardly their only option.
Outright cites where Marvel goes "yep that's the reason"? No
China having a history of banning movies with the barest hint of such content? Plentiful.
The Chinese government doesn't care if the TAO is played by a Chinese actor, they want absolutely no mention of Tibet, Tibetan Culture and the Tibetan people. Anything that implies that Tibet is in any way shape of form separate from China, even accidentally is verboten. Especially under the new regime of Xi Jingping, which has cracked down hard on such things and is the reason Chinese Cinema is in the shitter.
To them casting a white woman teaching magic is a plus.
As for Marvel chasing the Chinese Yuan, they shot special scenes in IM3 where a Chinese doctor fixes Tony Stark's heart. Probably to suck up so they could have "The Mandarin" in the movie.
You try to sell a movie about a villain called The Mandarin... to a Nation with actual Mandarin people in it,... where Mandarin is an official language.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Context, mainly. Hollywood hasn't been turning white roles into Blacks or Asians for decades with regularity for obviously problematic reasons - Marvel certainly hasn't.
They've been casting every role as male except for the hero's love interest for decades and decades. But oh noes, the source material!
Nor does a role have to be an offensive racial stereotype because an Asian is portraying it.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that more or less every Asian role from these old comic books is written in an offensive manner. They need to manage this problem, and since fans apparently won't accept "well I guess we won't use this Yellow Peril character from sixty years ago", they're trying to avoid the hint of racial stereotyping by casting non-Asians in these roles and then casting Asians in other roles without this ridiculous baggage (they have admittedly been better about this in the TV shows than the movies).
Again this whole issue stems from the problem of rehashing Silver Age comic books rather than coming up with original characters and ideas. To Marvel's credit, they've been doing this better and more tastefully than their competitors.
Outright cites where Marvel goes "yep that's the reason"? No
I'm not asking about Marvel, I'm asking about any proof period that this happens at all. So far I've been given zero examples.
China having a history of banning movies with the barest hint of such content? Plentiful.
The Chinese government doesn't care if the TAO is played by a Chinese actor, they want absolutely no mention of Tibet, Tibetan Culture and the Tibetan people. Anything that implies that Tibet is in any way shape of form separate from China, even accidentally is verboten. Especially under the new regime of Xi Jingping, which has cracked down hard on such things and is the reason Chinese Cinema is in the shitter.
This doesn't explain why Chinese government would go straight to that because? Why would they think that? This tells me a reaction to a cause, not why they got there in the first place.
Why do you assume anything remotely Asian about the Ancient One is going to send them off on this? They don't have to draw anything from Tibetan culture etc to not cast an Asian in the role. Ancient One doesn't have equal Tibetan, and I'm unconvinced this was the case aside from the writer's imaginings. There is nothing here they can't write around or change, on something in the comics that - if I'm being lenient - was metaphorical at best. Why would they assume that if the Ancient One was located in Japan, South Korea etc and with an actor from that region - why would the writers put in Tibetan things in it under those circumstances? Or not get editors to filter anything they suspect got in there out? This wouldn't go away with Tilda being cast if they couldn't do this. Which I sincerely doubt is what's going on.
And if it was as impossible as you are saying, why go through with the movie at all?
To them casting a white woman teaching magic is a plus.
Does this apply to just white actors as the Ancient One? What if Chiwetel Ejiofor had been cast instead?
As for Marvel chasing the Chinese Yuan, they shot special scenes in IM3 where a Chinese doctor fixes Tony Stark's heart. Probably to suck up so they could have "The Mandarin" in the movie.
Which was a pretty bad effort if they really wanted that Yuen as badly as the writer says.
You try to sell a movie about a villain called The Mandarin... to a Nation with actual Mandarin people in it,... where Mandarin is an official language.
Mandarin's a whole different kettle of fish to Ancient One, though both are problematic characters for obvious reasons.
Context, mainly. Hollywood hasn't been turning white roles into Blacks or Asians for decades with regularity for obviously problematic reasons - Marvel certainly hasn't.
They've been casting every role as male except for the hero's love interest for decades and decades. But oh noes, the source material!
Separate issue, and one unrelated to this one. I'm certainly not bothered a woman was cast, I'm unsure why you assume that's a problem I have with it.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that more or less every Asian role from these old comic books is written in an offensive manner. They need to manage this problem, and since fans apparently won't accept "well I guess we won't use this Yellow Peril character from sixty years ago", they're trying to avoid the hint of racial stereotyping by casting non-Asians in these roles and then casting Asians in other roles without this ridiculous baggage (they have admittedly been better about this in the TV shows than the movies).
Again, nothing I didn't know and nothing I haven't already explained as being updated in the past in multiple media with varying results. You're being disingenuous with my, and others, argument in this thread. That isn't our argument at all. No one is angry about having not having an Ancient One ripped from the 60's pages into the movie. Not casting Asians in Asian roles isn't the answer to this problem, or at least their options aren't all solved by pressing the whitewashing button. No, they're really not doing a good job of hiring Asians anywhere significant in the movie branch. Their best character for that was Helen Cho so far. Maybe Wong too, but it's been hilariously bad at casting Asians in anything in movies at this point - and it has been for a long time. There are more options than casting an Asian in a bad stereotype role and casting a white person.
Again this whole issue stems from the problem of rehashing Silver Age comic books rather than coming up with original characters and ideas. To Marvel's credit, they've been doing this better and more tastefully than their competitors.
Sure, but they haven't exactly been doing the absolute best either. Whitewashing isn't the answer they're looking for. And it doesn't fix the problems they have with minorities in their movies, no they're not the worst but they have really bad history with this when it comes to lead roles and Asian representation in their movies.
TAO isn't going to be Asian because China would throw a shitfit if there was even a hint that he could be described as Tibetan. That means the entire East Asian races was out of the running before the movie was even written. It was that or say goodbye to the Chinese movie market.
You can bitch about Marvel, but that was them bowing to censorship from an Asian source, not them deciding that TAO should go to a white woman. Bitch about them bowing to censorship, but not whitewashing.
Ditto the Mandarin.
They already answered that by not putting it in Tibet. You can tell the difference between someone from Vietnam and Korea the same way people can point out an American in the UK. The key there is familiarity. We do not have any kind of familiarity with the actors from major asian countries to be able to point out where they're from. However, China does, and they aren't going to look at, for example, a Vietnamese actor and think "Is he Tibetan?".
Isn't The Ancient One in Kathmandu in this iteration? Why would they be Tibetan?
Also like... it's Dr. Strange.
Guess who has a deep dedication to the source material of Dr. Strange. It is like a few thousand 50+ year-old guys who are 1000% going to see every single Marvel film for eternity.
You could situate the Realm of the Ancient One at the center of the hollow Earth. You could make it a displacement not in space but in understanding, through whatever door Strange walks once he achieves a modicum of enlightenment. You could put it in beautiful rural China and shoot a tourism video in a bid to skirt the Chinese mysticism restrictions via quid-pro-quo.
You could make it wherever and whatever you like and you could cast whomever you like in the role. In any role, because the audience of dedicated Strangies is so small as to be nonexistent. You could cast Scarlett Johansson as Dr. Strange if you wanted to.
But to stick with the bog-standard white guy gathers mystic secrets of the East story and just edit out any Asian people involved is pretty fucked.
Outright cites where Marvel goes "yep that's the reason"? No
I'm not asking about Marvel, I'm asking about any proof period that this happens at all. So far I've been given zero examples.
Nobody says outright that they change their movies to fit China's censorship policies. Why? Because that would cause a huge backlash with guys like you being SHOCKED, SHOCKED that censorship happens. However movies that have fallen afoul of their policies are legion: Seven years in Tibet, Kundun and Red Corner are all movies that have been banned for anti-Chinese rhetoric. The last one got the citizenship of Bai Ling revoked.
China having a history of banning movies with the barest hint of such content? Plentiful.
The Chinese government doesn't care if the TAO is played by a Chinese actor, they want absolutely no mention of Tibet, Tibetan Culture and the Tibetan people. Anything that implies that Tibet is in any way shape of form separate from China, even accidentally is verboten. Especially under the new regime of Xi Jingping, which has cracked down hard on such things and is the reason Chinese Cinema is in the shitter.
This doesn't explain why Chinese government would go straight to that because? Why would they think that? This tells me a reaction to a cause, not why they got there in the first place.
Why do you assume anything remotely Asian about the Ancient One is going to send them off on this? They don't have to draw anything from Tibetan culture etc to not cast an Asian in the role. Ancient One doesn't have equal Tibetan, and I'm unconvinced this was the case aside from the writer's imaginings. There is nothing here they can't write around or change, on something in the comics that - if I'm being lenient - was metaphorical at best. Why would they assume that if the Ancient One was located in Japan, South Korea etc and with an actor from that region - why would the writers put in Tibetan things in it under those circumstances? Or not get editors to filter anything they suspect got in there out? This wouldn't go away with Tilda being cast if they couldn't do this. Which I sincerely doubt is what's going on.
And if it was as impossible as you are saying, why go through with the movie at all?
Because its in line with their history of denying any movies that hints of Tibet as a separate cultural entity. Casting an Asian could still bring to mind that idea and if its somebody that looks different from Han Chinese that would only make it worse. The PRC is engaged in a actual cultural genocide of Tibet. Its forbidden to teach the language, culture and history in schools. Han Chinese are offered subsidies to move there. Its kind of a big deal and you dismissing the PRC's draconian attitudes towards Tibet comes of as naive. And asking a Han Chinese to risk his citizenship is beyond stupid.
Also TAO is probably only a small part of the movie and they still want to make money of their Doctor Strange property.
To them casting a white woman teaching magic is a plus.
Does this apply to just white actors as the Ancient One? What if Chiwetel Ejiofor had been cast instead?
Probably cause they gave him the bigger role of Karl Mordo, which is an expansion of the comic book version that may not be completely villainous. I.E. Karl Mordo will be presented as Strange's equal and rival.
As for Marvel chasing the Chinese Yuan, they shot special scenes in IM3 where a Chinese doctor fixes Tony Stark's heart. Probably to suck up so they could have "The Mandarin" in the movie.
Which was a pretty bad effort if they really wanted that Yuen as badly as the writer says.
You try to sell a movie about a villain called The Mandarin... to a Nation with actual Mandarin people in it,... where Mandarin is an official language.
Mandarin's a whole different kettle of fish to Ancient One, though both are problematic characters for obvious reasons.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
It makes me sad to think that we're helping China eradicate the Tibetan culture because Hollywood is unwilling to give up market share.
Lenin thought that the capitalists would sell him the very rope he'd use to hang them. The CPC seems to think that it's more efficient to sell us the rope and then watch as we hang ourselves.
I find it interesting that they got Gabriel from Constantine to play another man
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
A lot of this argument keeps circling back to profit, and "what can be done"
It's kinda simple, stop supporting movies that offend you, start supporting the ones that are making progress.
Which is the real problem in this era of hatewatching movies, and the " Well I gotta see how bad it is" , Hollywood execs don't have a spreedsheet for ticket sales going " Well this 25% chunk bought tickets, but they bought them ironically!" they just see ## of sales.
Unfortunately even if fans don't support movies like this Marvel is a big enough brand it won't make a dint in profits. An Ender's Game boycott needs to happen to even make them slightly concerned, but that almost never occurs. That's why it's a bad idea to rely on boycotts to pressure Hollywood.
“The script that I was presented with did not feature an Asian man for me to play, so that was never a question when I was being asked to do it,” she responded. “It all will be revealed when you see the film, I think. There are very great reasons for us to feel very settled and confident with the decisions that were made.”
Does this lady know what whitewashing is? Of course they're not going to have her play an Asian man. That does not mean this role isn't being white washed. It's not a coincidence the Ancient One in the comics is in the role she's in. That said, I don't expect her to outright say what they're doing isn't whitewashing since that's opening her and Marvel to criticism for it, or rip the company for whitewashing the role.
The script was finished with her in mind so yeah it never featured an Asian man. She's not wrong there.
I also don't expect her to accept a role knowing it's entire history or anything but once she's on set and this issue comes up maybe do some damned research instead of defending a poor choice
Swinton being a poor choice for TAO is clearly a matter of opinion.
She is and she isn't. She's technically a good choice, because she's an awesome actress - but she isn't the only actor in the world capable of being a great Ancient One. The problem is Marvel didn't bother searching elsewhere to find out, or if they they did they're not talking about it.
Marvel is under no obligation whatsoever to search the world high and low to cast every part. They just need to get someone decent to good for each part, and Swinton is orders of magnitude better than decent. You're inflicting your own priorities on them like it's some sort of rule or mandate. It very much isn't.
maybe they'll explain it away with that dalai lama reincarnation thing
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
maybe they'll explain it away with that dalai lama reincarnation thing
I rather doubt they will attempt to reconcile this Ancient One with the comic book one. Like just about everything else in the MCU, the film version is simply the version you're getting and if it differs from the comic, so be it.
It's ridiculous to expect Marvel to take up the Tibetan cause when every world government has written them off.
Perhaps you should really be writing your congressman instead.
It's the kind of thing they'll back in the comics, but fold on in the movies.
That's not a good thing.
They back pseudo Tibet in the comics, which was taken over not by China but by another powerful superbeing, who uses it as a staging ground for nearby conquest
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It's ridiculous to expect Marvel to take up the Tibetan cause when every world government has written them off.
Perhaps you should really be writing your congressman instead.
It's the kind of thing they'll back in the comics, but fold on in the movies.
That's not a good thing.
It's not about what's good or bad. It's about adjusting your expectations to bear some resemblance to reality.
I will say it again: Every country in the world has folded on Tibet. Expecting businesses that rely in part on the Chinese market to cut their own throats over the Tibet issue is ridiculous.
You know who will champion the cause? People who won't be harmed by doing so. Like random internet people.
If they think the Ancient One is so problematic, either heavily rewrite it or just leave it out. Instead we have half-measures that don't solve the problem just shift it sideways.
If they think the Ancient One is so problematic, either heavily rewrite it or just leave it out. Instead we have half-measures that don't solve the problem just shift it sideways.
It probably is heavily rewritten, swing as how Tilda Swinton is playing another supernatural male guru
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Jay;
Because casting all white people has proven to not affect box office sales. Casting minorities has proven to not increase sales.
A bad movie is going to flop regardless of who they cast in it, so why add additional risk of breaking the status quo for casting.
Because by excluding minorities from your cast, you discourage future minorities from pursuing this career track, which means you have a very limited talent pool to work with.
Smaller talent pool = shittier movies.
Maybe there's an Asian version of the Coen Brothers out there, with stories depicting their Asian American heritage. But we'll never know if we keep telling them that they don't belong in Hollywood.
It makes me sad to think that we're helping China eradicate the Tibetan culture because Hollywood is unwilling to give up market share.
True, but its not like we can stop it. China is a superpower and Tibet is not.
Not the first culture to die and not the last. Native American, Aborigine and a dozen more.
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
Thucydides
Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals have not "died out".
Talking Cultural, not actual genocide.
Their languages are almost gone, their traditions are fading and their way of life has been destroyed. What remains is a mishmash of the old ways at best, the themepark version at worst. As a self-perpetuating culture and society both are dead.
And they where destroyed in the same way the Chinese are trying to destroy Tibet. By the governments of the US and Australia outlawing the teachings of their culture. Up until the 70s it was government policy in both countries and had been for a lot longer then China's occupation of Tibet.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
It makes me sad to think that we're helping China eradicate the Tibetan culture because Hollywood is unwilling to give up market share.
True, but its not like we can stop it. China is a superpower and Tibet is not.
Not the first culture to die and not the last. Native American, Aborigine and a dozen more.
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
Thucydides
Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals have not "died out".
Talking Cultural, not actual genocide.
Their languages are almost gone, their traditions are fading and their way of life has been destroyed. What remains is a mishmash of the old ways at best, the themepark version at worst. As a self-perpetuating culture and society both are dead.
And they where destroyed in the same way the Chinese are trying to destroy Tibet. By the governments of the US and Australia outlawing the teachings of their culture. Up until the 70s it was government policy in both countries and had been for a lot longer then China's occupation of Tibet.
I'd tag Pooro, but I already hate for him to get called in on this kind of thing all the time.
Way of life destroyed, sure. But considering them culturally dead is pretty freaking bad man. Not only are their cultures (as in many) still around and alive, they're pretty adaptable all things considered.
Posts
A) that's still defending the choice
Hollywood is horrible... I don't think anyone here will disagree with that. Their practices are terrible and their social awareness is absolute shit, with some exceptions.
Much like the rest of the world that is horrible, Hollywood will often scapegoat the crap out of the easiest target... which is why Snyder is still in charge of the DCU and now Eisenberg is "Luthor Jr".
Swinton being a poor choice for TAO is clearly a matter of opinion.
The people whose job out is to answer those questions are spokespeople. Everyone else should just give a meaningless response and then talk about something else.
It's kinda simple, stop supporting movies that offend you, start supporting the ones that are making progress.
Which is the real problem in this era of hatewatching movies, and the " Well I gotta see how bad it is" , Hollywood execs don't have a spreedsheet for ticket sales going " Well this 25% chunk bought tickets, but they bought them ironically!" they just see ## of sales.
Unfortunately even if fans don't support movies like this Marvel is a big enough brand it won't make a dint in profits. An Ender's Game boycott needs to happen to even make them slightly concerned, but that almost never occurs. That's why it's a bad idea to rely on boycotts to pressure Hollywood.
She is and she isn't. She's technically a good choice, because she's an awesome actress - but she isn't the only actor in the world capable of being a great Ancient One. The problem is Marvel didn't bother searching elsewhere to find out, or if they they did they're not talking about it.
A technically that means they never bothered looking elsewhere, and if she had refused they'd have rewritten it for her replacement. Her being ignorant of this being a case of whitewashing does not mean it isn't whitewashing. She has to know at least by now the context for the role, yet we get crickets from her over said whitewashing. Because I assume she's a professional enough actress to not openly state to the press that yeah, this is whitewashing. Not does she need to know the character's entire history to understand what's going on, putting in Ancient One on Google or wikipedia will give her all she needs to know. I am curious what Marvel and the director and writer told her about the role, because I have absolutely no clue what they told her about it or why she doesn't know what's going on since we do know their writer is up to date with the character. Or she's lying through her teeth.
It'd go over better than what they're doing. What gets me is how badly they're trying to defend their decisions - c'mon guys give us a little credit. I'd also like to know exactly why the writer thought they cast her, yet the studio says otherwise. Is one or both lying? I don't recall marvel going into details about why they hired her over an Asian actor.
Actually no, in Hollywood with actors, directors and writers this is part of the job.
I know, right? She shouldn't have accepted a role that was clearly supposed to go to a man.
Or, wait, I meant Asian. Why does it sound bad one way and not the other way?
Also, can we maybe acknowledge that most non-white comic book characters from that time period were written as offensive racial stereotypes? They're not going to make The Ancient One a Tibetan monk from central casting for the same reason that they didn't make The Mandarin the ridiculous Fu Manchu villain that he was in the comics.
If the logical conclusion of this is that they need to pull from source material more recent than 1960 to avoid being offensive, then maybe they should do that?
Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, this appeal to the source material argument is just as dumb here as it was when people complained about casting Elba as Heimdall.
They could have chosen another actress who wasn't white, you know. Why is it that people think criticizing Tilde's role for whitewashing immediately assumes it's because we don't want a women there? No one has said the role couldn't gone to a woman, and Tilda isn't the only woman in Hollywood to do it. The screenwriter himself admitted Michelle Yeoh would be awesome in the role. Not that it has to be Yeoh. Is there a specific reason the only person on the planet for this role has to be Tilda?
Context, mainly. Hollywood hasn't been turning white roles into Blacks or Asians for decades with regularity for obviously problematic reasons - Marvel certainly hasn't.
You're not saying anything anyone disagrees with here, but the answer to this isn't to whitewash anything problematic since they don't even do that half the time anyway. They don't do this with every role, of course because even they know it isn't necessary. RE: Wong.
And you do know that the characters have evolved since then, right? In comics and other media? They can also do their own updates, which they do anyway. There is absolutely no reason whitewashing was the only solution to this, and no there are no choices that please everyone. They don't need to make the Ancient One a Tibetan monk either*, in fact they already offered a good out by making him/her an ancient mysterious being - which could be any shape, so why choose a white person? Why not Indian? Why not Black? Why not South Korean? Why not all of the above?
Nor does a role have to be an offensive racial stereotype because an Asian is portraying it. Were you offended by Helen Cho and Daisy Johnson, as well? They can do whatever they want with these characters, and they do great stuff occasionally by going in crazy directions, but the movie branch does go overboard with white actors being the answer to everything. Especially when they have a big problem with minority leads and Asian representation. This'd also be less of an issue if they cast an non-white Stephen. Imagine that, a Marvel movie where a minority lead has a minority mentor. To date I can't recall the movies doing this. Civil War spoilers
* I've been looking over his wikipedia and found nothing to show he's Tibetan in it. He's canonically from the fictional land of Kamar-Taj, a secret land within the Himalayas. Where's this idea that he was a Tibetan monk come from?
edit: Another change they could have made was switch the location to Japan, South Korea, Philippines, India etc and have the appropriate actors/actresses from there.
There are many ways to do this than whitewashing roles. This shouldn't be the go-to method for fixing roles like this, the tv branches certainly don't do this anywhere near as much - why aren't the movie branch following their lead? The Ancient One also didn't stop being used after the 60's too - use whatever good updates from the comics or drop it all and come up with their own direction that doesn't end up with a white actor taking a minority's role. And for the love of god start hiring more Asian actors in the movies, it's getting embarrassing how bad they are at this. It's not like it hasn't worked out for them in the past
You can bitch about Marvel, but that was them bowing to censorship from an Asian source, not them deciding that TAO should go to a white woman. Bitch about them bowing to censorship, but not whitewashing.
Ditto the Mandarin.
Do we have any cites for this, aside from the writer? Who didn't exactly give us any proof of his half baked theory.
edit: Doesn't China ban any movie that has magic in it?
edit: Also, if they truly wanted China's dollars shouldn't they have cast a Chinese actor or actress, rather than Tilda? If Marvel truly felt they were a high priority it seems odd they'd try to be neutral. It's not like a Chinese actor/actress wouldn't get people into theaters with the role, even with the problematic implications it bought.
edit: There are many ways they could have bowed to that pressure without whitewashing the role, as I outlined upthread. That was hardly their only option.
Uh no. They have to do a press tour to hype the movie. That doesn't mean their job is to actually say anything.
But when they don't do it right the public don't like it. Saying nothing leaves the audience unsatisfied.
Outright cites where Marvel goes "yep that's the reason"? No
China having a history of banning movies with the barest hint of such content? Plentiful.
The Chinese government doesn't care if the TAO is played by a Chinese actor, they want absolutely no mention of Tibet, Tibetan Culture and the Tibetan people. Anything that implies that Tibet is in any way shape of form separate from China, even accidentally is verboten. Especially under the new regime of Xi Jingping, which has cracked down hard on such things and is the reason Chinese Cinema is in the shitter.
To them casting a white woman teaching magic is a plus.
As for Marvel chasing the Chinese Yuan, they shot special scenes in IM3 where a Chinese doctor fixes Tony Stark's heart. Probably to suck up so they could have "The Mandarin" in the movie.
You try to sell a movie about a villain called The Mandarin... to a Nation with actual Mandarin people in it,... where Mandarin is an official language.
They've been casting every role as male except for the hero's love interest for decades and decades. But oh noes, the source material!
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that more or less every Asian role from these old comic books is written in an offensive manner. They need to manage this problem, and since fans apparently won't accept "well I guess we won't use this Yellow Peril character from sixty years ago", they're trying to avoid the hint of racial stereotyping by casting non-Asians in these roles and then casting Asians in other roles without this ridiculous baggage (they have admittedly been better about this in the TV shows than the movies).
Again this whole issue stems from the problem of rehashing Silver Age comic books rather than coming up with original characters and ideas. To Marvel's credit, they've been doing this better and more tastefully than their competitors.
I'm not asking about Marvel, I'm asking about any proof period that this happens at all. So far I've been given zero examples.
This doesn't explain why Chinese government would go straight to that because? Why would they think that? This tells me a reaction to a cause, not why they got there in the first place.
Why do you assume anything remotely Asian about the Ancient One is going to send them off on this? They don't have to draw anything from Tibetan culture etc to not cast an Asian in the role. Ancient One doesn't have equal Tibetan, and I'm unconvinced this was the case aside from the writer's imaginings. There is nothing here they can't write around or change, on something in the comics that - if I'm being lenient - was metaphorical at best. Why would they assume that if the Ancient One was located in Japan, South Korea etc and with an actor from that region - why would the writers put in Tibetan things in it under those circumstances? Or not get editors to filter anything they suspect got in there out? This wouldn't go away with Tilda being cast if they couldn't do this. Which I sincerely doubt is what's going on.
And if it was as impossible as you are saying, why go through with the movie at all?
Does this apply to just white actors as the Ancient One? What if Chiwetel Ejiofor had been cast instead?
Which was a pretty bad effort if they really wanted that Yuen as badly as the writer says.
Mandarin's a whole different kettle of fish to Ancient One, though both are problematic characters for obvious reasons.
Separate issue, and one unrelated to this one. I'm certainly not bothered a woman was cast, I'm unsure why you assume that's a problem I have with it.
Again, nothing I didn't know and nothing I haven't already explained as being updated in the past in multiple media with varying results. You're being disingenuous with my, and others, argument in this thread. That isn't our argument at all. No one is angry about having not having an Ancient One ripped from the 60's pages into the movie. Not casting Asians in Asian roles isn't the answer to this problem, or at least their options aren't all solved by pressing the whitewashing button. No, they're really not doing a good job of hiring Asians anywhere significant in the movie branch. Their best character for that was Helen Cho so far. Maybe Wong too, but it's been hilariously bad at casting Asians in anything in movies at this point - and it has been for a long time. There are more options than casting an Asian in a bad stereotype role and casting a white person.
Sure, but they haven't exactly been doing the absolute best either. Whitewashing isn't the answer they're looking for. And it doesn't fix the problems they have with minorities in their movies, no they're not the worst but they have really bad history with this when it comes to lead roles and Asian representation in their movies.
They already answered that by not putting it in Tibet. You can tell the difference between someone from Vietnam and Korea the same way people can point out an American in the UK. The key there is familiarity. We do not have any kind of familiarity with the actors from major asian countries to be able to point out where they're from. However, China does, and they aren't going to look at, for example, a Vietnamese actor and think "Is he Tibetan?".
Also like... it's Dr. Strange.
Guess who has a deep dedication to the source material of Dr. Strange. It is like a few thousand 50+ year-old guys who are 1000% going to see every single Marvel film for eternity.
You could situate the Realm of the Ancient One at the center of the hollow Earth. You could make it a displacement not in space but in understanding, through whatever door Strange walks once he achieves a modicum of enlightenment. You could put it in beautiful rural China and shoot a tourism video in a bid to skirt the Chinese mysticism restrictions via quid-pro-quo.
You could make it wherever and whatever you like and you could cast whomever you like in the role. In any role, because the audience of dedicated Strangies is so small as to be nonexistent. You could cast Scarlett Johansson as Dr. Strange if you wanted to.
But to stick with the bog-standard white guy gathers mystic secrets of the East story and just edit out any Asian people involved is pretty fucked.
This doesn't explain why Chinese government would go straight to that because? Why would they think that? This tells me a reaction to a cause, not why they got there in the first place.
Why do you assume anything remotely Asian about the Ancient One is going to send them off on this? They don't have to draw anything from Tibetan culture etc to not cast an Asian in the role. Ancient One doesn't have equal Tibetan, and I'm unconvinced this was the case aside from the writer's imaginings. There is nothing here they can't write around or change, on something in the comics that - if I'm being lenient - was metaphorical at best. Why would they assume that if the Ancient One was located in Japan, South Korea etc and with an actor from that region - why would the writers put in Tibetan things in it under those circumstances? Or not get editors to filter anything they suspect got in there out? This wouldn't go away with Tilda being cast if they couldn't do this. Which I sincerely doubt is what's going on.
And if it was as impossible as you are saying, why go through with the movie at all?
Does this apply to just white actors as the Ancient One? What if Chiwetel Ejiofor had been cast instead?
Which was a pretty bad effort if they really wanted that Yuen as badly as the writer says.
Mandarin's a whole different kettle of fish to Ancient One, though both are problematic characters for obvious reasons.
Global capitalism, to.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
True, but its not like we can stop it. China is a superpower and Tibet is not.
Not the first culture to die and not the last. Native American, Aborigine and a dozen more.
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
Thucydides
Lenin thought that the capitalists would sell him the very rope he'd use to hang them. The CPC seems to think that it's more efficient to sell us the rope and then watch as we hang ourselves.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Marvel is under no obligation whatsoever to search the world high and low to cast every part. They just need to get someone decent to good for each part, and Swinton is orders of magnitude better than decent. You're inflicting your own priorities on them like it's some sort of rule or mandate. It very much isn't.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I rather doubt they will attempt to reconcile this Ancient One with the comic book one. Like just about everything else in the MCU, the film version is simply the version you're getting and if it differs from the comic, so be it.
That's not an ideal to live up to, you know.
Perhaps you should really be writing your congressman instead.
It's the kind of thing they'll back in the comics, but fold on in the movies.
That's not a good thing.
They back pseudo Tibet in the comics, which was taken over not by China but by another powerful superbeing, who uses it as a staging ground for nearby conquest
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It's not about what's good or bad. It's about adjusting your expectations to bear some resemblance to reality.
I will say it again: Every country in the world has folded on Tibet. Expecting businesses that rely in part on the Chinese market to cut their own throats over the Tibet issue is ridiculous.
You know who will champion the cause? People who won't be harmed by doing so. Like random internet people.
It probably is heavily rewritten, swing as how Tilda Swinton is playing another supernatural male guru
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Because by excluding minorities from your cast, you discourage future minorities from pursuing this career track, which means you have a very limited talent pool to work with.
Smaller talent pool = shittier movies.
Maybe there's an Asian version of the Coen Brothers out there, with stories depicting their Asian American heritage. But we'll never know if we keep telling them that they don't belong in Hollywood.
Native Americans and Australian Aboriginals have not "died out".
Talking Cultural, not actual genocide.
Their languages are almost gone, their traditions are fading and their way of life has been destroyed. What remains is a mishmash of the old ways at best, the themepark version at worst. As a self-perpetuating culture and society both are dead.
And they where destroyed in the same way the Chinese are trying to destroy Tibet. By the governments of the US and Australia outlawing the teachings of their culture. Up until the 70s it was government policy in both countries and had been for a lot longer then China's occupation of Tibet.
I'd tag Pooro, but I already hate for him to get called in on this kind of thing all the time.
Way of life destroyed, sure. But considering them culturally dead is pretty freaking bad man. Not only are their cultures (as in many) still around and alive, they're pretty adaptable all things considered.