Shakespeare should be taught because we have a staggeringly rich cultural history and it ought not be discarded because of the ever-present desire to do something "modern" and "relevant". People have been saying that since the 1700s.
For me it’s not about relevance. It’s that I find it pedagogically wasteful that I was reading texts that I could not understand—in the most literal sense, I could not parse then—at ages where even if I were to understand them, I would have no comprehension of the themes of sex, death, and politics. Hard to see that as not being a pedagogical waste.
High school is arguable. Junior high: what. I’m not a person with generally low language skills and was an avid reader. Eh, w/e.
I don't believe it's impossible, or even very hard, for a 15yr old to connect with themes of sex, death, and politics. It's not taught that way! R&J should be upsettingly relatable for a HS sophomore. It's YA lit! Two idiot kids kill themselves over their ridiculous first love while their parents and family try to keep them apart. This is a relatable story!
Othello is relatable as fk! Jealousy destroys everything, just like in your own life!
The problem is with substandard teaching, not with Shakespeare.
Yes, sexual jealousy and race politics, my primary areas of lived experience at 12
Not to mention clever puns on the 1521 convention of the Holy Roman Empire addressing Martin Luther, aka the “Diet of Worms” (like... worms eating stuff... lol Shakespeare this wit!). DEFINITELY translates to the middle school experience.
Ok, he said 15 though, and boy howdy sexual jealousy and race politics at 15? yea. yea, we had some of those.
Most Americans are virgins for most of high school and most high schools are extremely racially segregated
Being a virgin most definitely does not exclude someone from sexual jealousy.
Yeah, sure, I really wanted to fuck because I was horny all the time and pop culture assured me that sex was great
In what sense does that experience at bear on the rotten feeling of a married man who lets rumors of infidelity progressively poison his mind
These are good stories! They don’t ~have~ to be relatable to kids. Kids don’t understand a lot of shit.
?? This was like, 80% of high school drama by a quick estimation. It doesn't have to be to the same degree to be relevant. "Hey I heard Joe saw Becky kissing Luke! I thought she was still with Derek?"
This is only very superficially related to the deep, disturbing feelings depicted in a play like Othello or say A Winters Tale? I don’t think playground gossip really has that much to do with what it feels like to be a middle aged man with a wife he’s known half his life who suspects that she may have strayed and wishes desperately that he didn’t know—that he hadn’t seen “the spider in his cup.”
i think this is a situation where there are layers of nuance to the theme, but not being able to exactly understand every aspect of it because you've literally never known anyone for 20 years doesn't equal not being able to grasp the material at all
most of shakespeare has a superficial level of understanding and then deeper layers
Yeah, but isn’t this going to be true for everything? There aren’t going to be many pieces of work where there is literally zero level no matter how superficial on which a kid, or any human, can relate. It doesn’t strike me as an especially compelling case for pedagogical value.
They question is never “is this worse than doing nothing”; it’s “is this better than doing everything else.” Anything you do teach is something else you can’t.
there are certainly things i had to read in high school i would scrap and replace before shakespeare
i guess i don't understand your argument though, because i thought it was specifically that teaching shakespeare is bad because teenagers can't understand it
It is! I think the language and themes are both inaccessible and it’s a real weird choice for kids. They’re not perfectly inaccessible, but nothing is. I just think there are better things to teach, where the barriers aren’t so high and people can build their skills reading, writing, and their general language facilities against a background that’s less punishingly opaque. That doesn’t have to be Vampire Diaries or 100 consecutive coming of age novels. I’m just like... he’s literally making jokes about the HRE’s reaction to Martin Luther and dry vaginas, while exploring middle aged depression, how on earth did we decide this was the canonical education for teenagers in 2018?
tbf othello was never assigned material when i was in high school, i read it separately
we read romeo and juliet, hamlet, macbeth, and the tempest
Othello wasn't assigned material at my high school either. We did Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, A Midsummer Night's Dream, and King Lear
0
Options
ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
There is free food I meant to get, but can't, because I'm busy babysitting this preparation.
High School American History (and otherwise) is such garbage, they'd be better off just putting on The Dollop.
I did AP so mine was a bit different.
Mine also included Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States.
That should be the standard not the AP. It all feels very "we can't teach the poor dumb people about the poor dumb history of the US, they'd revolt!"
I don't disagree though I am not sure Zinn should be standard. He requires a lot of context and discussion that I didn't even get in the AP class.
I have never found any public school I have worked in, US or Japan, does what I would say a great job with history. You will always be cherry picking due to breadth of the topic. You will probably not have time to get into in depth arguments on different view points based on different schools of thought. And you really won't have time to explore large amounts of primary sources. I was better informed by my AP class than most Americans but it wasn't till college when I took actual upper level history course did I get the real context of what I was learning because I was reading and exploring in depth much more focused time periods.
Also Colorado is the odd ball state as it is one of the few that still mandates a civics class in high school. Most don't even offer it.
Having taken a lot of history classes over the years, my big take away is everyone focuses way too much on the "important" moments and dates, missing that that is often boring as shit.
History class should be about just how crazy history is.
I still don't know why I know about "bismark's BLOOD AND IRON" policy except that it unified Germany. I do however know just how insane the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was and from that you can spin out the context of how WWI happened.
History as a patchwork of personal stories creating a quilt of the human experience is far more entertaining and engaging that the written in stone facts.
Perhaps the most renowned theatre artist in Canada is directing Coriolanus at Stratford right now. His stage and light design are legendary. I saw a show at the National Arts Centre he did and it was astonishing, magical. Unreal.
People are saying this show is the best thing that's been on stage at Stratford in the last decade.
Perhaps the most renowned theatre artist in Canada is directing Coriolanus at Stratford right now. His stage and light design are legendary. I saw a show at the National Arts Centre he did and it was astonishing, magical. Unreal.
People are saying this show is the best thing that's been on stage at Stratford in the last decade.
Shakespeare should be taught because we have a staggeringly rich cultural history and it ought not be discarded because of the ever-present desire to do something "modern" and "relevant". People have been saying that since the 1700s.
For me it’s not about relevance. It’s that I find it pedagogically wasteful that I was reading texts that I could not understand—in the most literal sense, I could not parse then—at ages where even if I were to understand them, I would have no comprehension of the themes of sex, death, and politics. Hard to see that as not being a pedagogical waste.
High school is arguable. Junior high: what. I’m not a person with generally low language skills and was an avid reader. Eh, w/e.
I don't believe it's impossible, or even very hard, for a 15yr old to connect with themes of sex, death, and politics. It's not taught that way! R&J should be upsettingly relatable for a HS sophomore. It's YA lit! Two idiot kids kill themselves over their ridiculous first love while their parents and family try to keep them apart. This is a relatable story!
Othello is relatable as fk! Jealousy destroys everything, just like in your own life!
The problem is with substandard teaching, not with Shakespeare.
Yes, sexual jealousy and race politics, my primary areas of lived experience at 12
Not to mention clever puns on the 1521 convention of the Holy Roman Empire addressing Martin Luther, aka the “Diet of Worms” (like... worms eating stuff... lol Shakespeare this wit!). DEFINITELY translates to the middle school experience.
Ok, he said 15 though, and boy howdy sexual jealousy and race politics at 15? yea. yea, we had some of those.
Most Americans are virgins for most of high school and most high schools are extremely racially segregated
Being a virgin most definitely does not exclude someone from sexual jealousy.
Yeah, sure, I really wanted to fuck because I was horny all the time and pop culture assured me that sex was great
In what sense does that experience at bear on the rotten feeling of a married man who lets rumors of infidelity progressively poison his mind
These are good stories! They don’t ~have~ to be relatable to kids. Kids don’t understand a lot of shit.
?? This was like, 80% of high school drama by a quick estimation. It doesn't have to be to the same degree to be relevant. "Hey I heard Joe saw Becky kissing Luke! I thought she was still with Derek?"
This is only very superficially related to the deep, disturbing feelings depicted in a play like Othello or say A Winters Tale? I don’t think playground gossip really has that much to do with what it feels like to be a middle aged man with a wife he’s known half his life who suspects that she may have strayed and wishes desperately that he didn’t know—that he hadn’t seen “the spider in his cup.”
i think this is a situation where there are layers of nuance to the theme, but not being able to exactly understand every aspect of it because you've literally never known anyone for 20 years doesn't equal not being able to grasp the material at all
most of shakespeare has a superficial level of understanding and then deeper layers
Yeah, but isn’t this going to be true for everything? There aren’t going to be many pieces of work where there is literally zero level no matter how superficial on which a kid, or any human, can relate. It doesn’t strike me as an especially compelling case for pedagogical value.
They question is never “is this worse than doing nothing”; it’s “is this better than doing everything else.” Anything you do teach is something else you can’t.
there are certainly things i had to read in high school i would scrap and replace before shakespeare
i guess i don't understand your argument though, because i thought it was specifically that teaching shakespeare is bad because teenagers can't understand it
It is! I think the language and themes are both inaccessible and it’s a real weird choice for kids. They’re not perfectly inaccessible, but nothing is. I just think there are better things to teach, where the barriers aren’t so high and people can build their skills reading, writing, and their general language facilities against a background that’s less punishingly opaque. That doesn’t have to be Vampire Diaries or 100 consecutive coming of age novels. I’m just like... he’s literally making jokes about the HRE’s reaction to Martin Luther and dry vaginas, while exploring middle aged depression, how on earth did we decide this was the canonical education for teenagers in 2018?
It seems weird to focus on jokes about the HRE when they can be easily ignored, and are
Shakespeare is really broadly applicable and relatable. That's the whole point. The language is a barrier, certainly, but it isn't some kind of cultural archaeology.
Any of you ever used EaseUS to clone a drive? People are recommending Acronis but EaseUS is free vs Acronis being 30 dollars.
Or I can just fully reinstall windows but blegh
I used Macrium Reflect recently, was a fan of it.
They're all pretty similar if you just want to clone a disk.
Hrm, probably gonna give easeus a try then. It's my OS disc so I should be able to clone it, turn off the pc, remove the original drive, then boot as normal I hope?
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
0
Options
Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
Yeah, I saw that and realized how could they not? It would light a notebook of that thickness on fire.
Maybe a third party will invent a new bottom case with double the thickness and heatsinks up to the task.
Donkey Kong on
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
+1
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
I'm sure it's fine and Apple specifically engineered it that way
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
How could they not. It would light a notebook of that thickness on fire.
Maybe a third party will invent a new bottom case with double the thickness and heatsinks up to the task.
Its performing worse than the i7 of the last gen macbook pro heh. Its being offered as a premium selection so yeah us wondering how they could engineer it to work shows up they cant. Its just a premium.
0
Options
Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
I'm sure it's fine and Apple specifically engineered it that way
No sarcasm, this is literally true! They're not careless, they just have weird priorities.
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
I get a frantic call today, please come to fuel right away it’s an emergency I called 911
I run out to fuel, a car’s gas tank has apparently disintegrated and fuel is gushing all over the ground. The fire department shows up. When my boss’ boss finally gets out there, he looks around disgustedly and asks the clerk who called if she knows how much this is going to cost the store. He then intensively quizzes her on the procedure for fuel spills and tries to figure out if she should have called. The fire department eyeballs the spill as about a gallon. We’re supposed to call at two gallons. He says all shittily, how long has it been since you had your fuel training?!
So I’m interjecting like dude she knows the number. But the training doesn’t show spills of various sizes, visually. If I were out here I would have called too. It was flowing at a fair rate, stop scaring the shit out of this woman
Gosh I fucking hate this jerb. My new primary job duty as far as I’m concerned is to make sure this woman doesn’t get in trouble. raaaaaaaage
Organichu on
+12
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
I'm sure it's fine and Apple specifically engineered it that way
No sarcasm, this is literally true! They're not careless, they just have weird priorities.
Like their notebooks not working correctly because they've been thermal throttled to shit after slapping down like $1,000 for the premium "upgrade."
So you blow a grand on a chip that makes it work less good.
jungleroomx on
+2
Options
Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
edited July 2018
The new Macbook should perform better in short bursts. So basically if you bought the ultra premium machine even though you didn't really need it, it'll feel like that power is there because everything will be really snappy when opening browsers and stuff. But if you actually try to use it in a sustained way: video renders, crypto, etc, it'll overheat and slow down lower than the old model.
Donkey Kong on
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
+2
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I mean people will still buy it and claim it's the best notebook ever so I really can't blame Apple for knowing it's customer base.
+3
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
The new Macbook should perform better in short bursts. So basically if you bought the ultra premium machine even though you didn't really need it, it'll feel like that power is there because everything will be really snappy when opening browsers and stuff. But if you actually try to use it in a sustained way: video renders, crypto, etc, it'll overheat and slow down lower than the old model.
Nah man, thermal throttling is near instant.
It's okay to say they fucked up and to just get the i7.
I mean some of these tests are adobe premiere exports. So what it is supposed to be designed for is failing to show premium speeds on single exports. It is a rather glaring engineering flab.
0
Options
SixCaches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhexRegistered Userregular
You should be doing that kind of work on an iPad anyway.
can you feel the struggle within?
+1
Options
BeNarwhalThe Work Left UnfinishedRegistered Userregular
I get a frantic call today, please come to fuel right away it’s an emergency I called 911
I run out to fuel, a car’s gas tank has apparently disintegrated and fuel is gushing all over the ground. The fire department shows up. When my boss’ boss finally gets out there, he looks around disgustedly and asks the clerk who called if she knows how much this is going to cost the store. He then intensively quizzes her on the procedure for fuel spills and tries to figure out if she should have called. The fire department eyeballs the spill as about a gallon. We’re supposed to call at two gallons. He says all shittily, how long has it been since you had your fuel training?!
So I’m interjecting like dude she knows the number. But the training doesn’t show spills of various sizes, visually. If I were out here I would have called too. It was flowing at a fair rate, stop scaring the shit out of this woman
Gosh I fucking hate this jerb. My new primary job duty as far as I’m concerned is to make sure this woman doesn’t get in trouble. raaaaaaaage
To resolve this situation in the future, make sure you're always carrying an open flame
Show him the practical difference between one and two gallon spills near a fueling station
The new Macbook should perform better in short bursts. So basically if you bought the ultra premium machine even though you didn't really need it, it'll feel like that power is there because everything will be really snappy when opening browsers and stuff. But if you actually try to use it in a sustained way: video renders, crypto, etc, it'll overheat and slow down lower than the old model.
I'm always suspect of people doing that kind of stuff on a laptop.
Even design work, unless you're doing just preliminary stuff, you want power.
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
I'm sure it's fine and Apple specifically engineered it that way
No sarcasm, this is literally true! They're not careless, they just have weird priorities.
Like their notebooks not working correctly because they've been thermal throttled to shit after slapping down like $1,000 for the premium "upgrade."
So you blow a grand on a chip that makes it work less good.
Dell did the same thing with the XPS line. The XPS 13s with Iris GPUs show no better graphics performance than non-Iris GPUs because they deliberately throttled the GPUs to save on battery life and reduce heat.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
+1
Options
Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
i have an hour and a half minimum large corporate meeting to go to and i think i might just jump off the building instead
Any of you ever used EaseUS to clone a drive? People are recommending Acronis but EaseUS is free vs Acronis being 30 dollars.
Or I can just fully reinstall windows but blegh
I used Macrium Reflect recently, was a fan of it.
They're all pretty similar if you just want to clone a disk.
Hrm, probably gonna give easeus a try then. It's my OS disc so I should be able to clone it, turn off the pc, remove the original drive, then boot as normal I hope?
You don't even need to remove the original drive, you can reboot, change the boot order in the BIOS and make sure it works before you mess with the hardware again. Assuming you have enough physical connections for both drives.
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
Yeah, I saw that and realized how could they not? It would light a notebook of that thickness on fire.
Maybe a third party will invent a new bottom case with double the thickness and heatsinks up to the task.
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
I'm sure it's fine and Apple specifically engineered it that way
No sarcasm, this is literally true! They're not careless, they just have weird priorities.
Like their notebooks not working correctly because they've been thermal throttled to shit after slapping down like $1,000 for the premium "upgrade."
So you blow a grand on a chip that makes it work less good.
Dell did the same thing with the XPS line. The XPS 13s with Iris GPUs show no better graphics performance than non-Iris GPUs because they deliberately throttled the GPUs to save on battery life and reduce heat.
Bingo.
It's bad engineering to try and get a square peg into a round hole, fueled entirely by marketing.
The i9 is usually watercooled in PC's. Why companies are trying to shove it into portables is far, far beyond my capacity to understand.
There should be some metric where you multiply the number of people in a meeting by the length of the meeting and if it exceeds a certain threshold you've violated the metric
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
+4
Options
BeNarwhalThe Work Left UnfinishedRegistered Userregular
8-pound drop-resistant tank-resistant water-resistant laptops or I riot
There should be some metric where you multiply the number of people in a meeting by the length of the meeting and if it exceeds a certain threshold you've violated the metric
I setup timers as on the reservation things can get drawn out by magnitude if you let a native talk.
Reading through tech feed. Beware the new MacBook Pro with i9 in it. Looks like some heavy cpu throttling under heavy use being reported by several testbeds.
I'm sure it's fine and Apple specifically engineered it that way
No sarcasm, this is literally true! They're not careless, they just have weird priorities.
Like their notebooks not working correctly because they've been thermal throttled to shit after slapping down like $1,000 for the premium "upgrade."
So you blow a grand on a chip that makes it work less good.
Dell did the same thing with the XPS line. The XPS 13s with Iris GPUs show no better graphics performance than non-Iris GPUs because they deliberately throttled the GPUs to save on battery life and reduce heat.
Hey [chat] off-topic but what's something that is, like, 2/3rds of the way between Buffalo NY and Bristol, Tennessee
It would appear the answer is mostly "Empty land and the Appalachians", but we're looking for somewhere to sleep that is perhaps a little interesting
I mean, West Virginia is interesting for certain definitions of interesting.
I'm traveling with my mother who has become accustomed to a certain lifestyle, and my brother who is afraid of poor people, so they need to be cared for :P
Posts
This is true graduate hell.
Having taken a lot of history classes over the years, my big take away is everyone focuses way too much on the "important" moments and dates, missing that that is often boring as shit.
History class should be about just how crazy history is.
I still don't know why I know about "bismark's BLOOD AND IRON" policy except that it unified Germany. I do however know just how insane the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was and from that you can spin out the context of how WWI happened.
History as a patchwork of personal stories creating a quilt of the human experience is far more entertaining and engaging that the written in stone facts.
Or I can just fully reinstall windows but blegh
People are saying this show is the best thing that's been on stage at Stratford in the last decade.
There's a trailer.
couldn't get into life of pablo
Lul
I used Macrium Reflect recently, was a fan of it.
They're all pretty similar if you just want to clone a disk.
Anus
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
25 was middle aged when the plays were written!
https://xboxdvr.com/gamer/elkamil/video/56265176
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Shakespeare is really broadly applicable and relatable. That's the whole point. The language is a barrier, certainly, but it isn't some kind of cultural archaeology.
Hrm, probably gonna give easeus a try then. It's my OS disc so I should be able to clone it, turn off the pc, remove the original drive, then boot as normal I hope?
Yeah, I saw that and realized how could they not? It would light a notebook of that thickness on fire.
Maybe a third party will invent a new bottom case with double the thickness and heatsinks up to the task.
I'm sure it's fine and Apple specifically engineered it that way
Its performing worse than the i7 of the last gen macbook pro heh. Its being offered as a premium selection so yeah us wondering how they could engineer it to work shows up they cant. Its just a premium.
No sarcasm, this is literally true! They're not careless, they just have weird priorities.
I run out to fuel, a car’s gas tank has apparently disintegrated and fuel is gushing all over the ground. The fire department shows up. When my boss’ boss finally gets out there, he looks around disgustedly and asks the clerk who called if she knows how much this is going to cost the store. He then intensively quizzes her on the procedure for fuel spills and tries to figure out if she should have called. The fire department eyeballs the spill as about a gallon. We’re supposed to call at two gallons. He says all shittily, how long has it been since you had your fuel training?!
So I’m interjecting like dude she knows the number. But the training doesn’t show spills of various sizes, visually. If I were out here I would have called too. It was flowing at a fair rate, stop scaring the shit out of this woman
Gosh I fucking hate this jerb. My new primary job duty as far as I’m concerned is to make sure this woman doesn’t get in trouble. raaaaaaaage
Like their notebooks not working correctly because they've been thermal throttled to shit after slapping down like $1,000 for the premium "upgrade."
So you blow a grand on a chip that makes it work less good.
Nah man, thermal throttling is near instant.
It's okay to say they fucked up and to just get the i7.
To resolve this situation in the future, make sure you're always carrying an open flame
Show him the practical difference between one and two gallon spills near a fueling station
I'm always suspect of people doing that kind of stuff on a laptop.
Even design work, unless you're doing just preliminary stuff, you want power.
ipad / desktop combo is the light.
Look at edits.
Wonders if this person was in the same meeting.
Dell did the same thing with the XPS line. The XPS 13s with Iris GPUs show no better graphics performance than non-Iris GPUs because they deliberately throttled the GPUs to save on battery life and reduce heat.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
You don't even need to remove the original drive, you can reboot, change the boot order in the BIOS and make sure it works before you mess with the hardware again. Assuming you have enough physical connections for both drives.
Bingo.
It's bad engineering to try and get a square peg into a round hole, fueled entirely by marketing.
The i9 is usually watercooled in PC's. Why companies are trying to shove it into portables is far, far beyond my capacity to understand.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I setup timers as on the reservation things can get drawn out by magnitude if you let a native talk.
I'm traveling with my mother who has become accustomed to a certain lifestyle, and my brother who is afraid of poor people, so they need to be cared for :P