No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Like i'm rolling it over and i'm just not seeing how this being the core truth ends at anything but "murder's fine" it's equivalent to breaking a bottle.
Like it just seems like y'all are trying to say that humans both aren't special but are.
Humans are made of matter like anything else made of matter, in that sense we're not special. Humans also are living, conscious, self-aware and creative, which are relatively rare properties in the world around us. If that doesn't make humans special in some sense of the term then I don't know if it actually means anything.
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
For some people the likelihood that humanity will annihilate itself in either nuclear fire or environmental exhaustion renders life meaningless, but others find liberation in the same thought.
If nothing matters, then we can do whatever we want without being judged. We're free from judgement by both history and God.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
So you seem to be committed to rejecting a naively reductive materialist/physicalist worldview, and that's fine, lots of people want to do that and develop different worldviews. Determinism is entailed by that worldview, but determinism also fits with more nuanced understandings of reality. I think you're blaming determinism for conclusions entailed by something else.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
And we're back to dealing with Sleeps existential crisis. sigh...
Ok, at intergalactic scale, nothing matters, so what? At human level, things matter. We matter to ourselves, we matter to each other, we definitely matter to the IRS (not much, but we do).
The very fact that you are asking these questions, that you are so obviously upset, means that things matter to you.
So i'll ask to you instead, why does it matter that things matter beyond personal level? Why is it important we have some existence beyond matter and energy? WHy is it important to be some sort of causality free agent, instead of culmination of billions of years of separate causal chains coming to a point?
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
That's a pretty huge claim.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
And we're back to dealing with Sleeps existential crisis. sigh...
Ok, at intergalactic scale, nothing matters, so what? At human level, things matter. We matter to ourselves, we matter to each other, we definitely matter to the IRS (not much, but we do).
The very fact that you are asking these questions, that you are so obviously upset, means that things matter to you.
So i'll ask to you instead, why does it matter that things matter beyond personal level? Why is it important we have some existence beyond matter and energy? WHy is it important to be some sort of causality free agent, instead of culmination of billions of years of separate causal chains coming to a point?
I've suffered a ton of fuckin super fucked up abuse and spent most of my life after that in deep introspection picking apart the whys and hows of my behavior, and then promptly saying fuck those environmental factors i'm going to do my best to work against those casual factors change my behavior and become a better person. Its taken me the better part of 16 years I'd say. I'm not the shitty asshole my environment did and should have produced. I got through it via force of will, and i'm gonna be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise.
If you wanna shit on my ideology there i don't see why i can't call determinism useless garbage.
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
That's a pretty huge claim.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
Ha no in a computer i can tell you down to the bottom how it works. Like that's literally my life's work. Computers are understood. Humans are not.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
Humans are basically the definition of animate objects. I am animating to push buttons now. Maybe you mean something else?
In any event, it's worth noting that plenty of people are pretty enthusiastic about determinism, and it helps people out on a regular basis.
Free will creates a much less forgiving or actionable environment for anyone dealing with emotions or mental issues, because everything in your head is automatically all your fault and all up to you to fix. In a determinstic world, there is medication, therapy, changing your behaviors and environment, and knowing that there is actually a cause behind things other than you just choosing to feel that way.
Free will is terribly unkind to mental illness especially.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
And we're back to dealing with Sleeps existential crisis. sigh...
Ok, at intergalactic scale, nothing matters, so what? At human level, things matter. We matter to ourselves, we matter to each other, we definitely matter to the IRS (not much, but we do).
The very fact that you are asking these questions, that you are so obviously upset, means that things matter to you.
So i'll ask to you instead, why does it matter that things matter beyond personal level? Why is it important we have some existence beyond matter and energy? WHy is it important to be some sort of causality free agent, instead of culmination of billions of years of separate causal chains coming to a point?
I've suffered a ton of fuckin super fucked up abuse and spent most of my life after that in deep introspection picking apart the whys and hows of my behavior, and then promptly saying fuck those environmental factors i'm going to do my best to work against those casual factors change my behavior and become a better person. Its taken me the better part of 16 years I'd say. I'm not the shitty asshole my environment did and should have produced. I got through it via force of will, and i'm gonna be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise.
If you wanna shit on my ideology there i don't see why i can't call determinism useless garbage.
No one is saying that your experience is invalid when they say free will does not or may not exist. You remain uniquely the person you are whether or not it is due to biology and environment or an immortal soul.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
And we're back to dealing with Sleeps existential crisis. sigh...
Ok, at intergalactic scale, nothing matters, so what? At human level, things matter. We matter to ourselves, we matter to each other, we definitely matter to the IRS (not much, but we do).
The very fact that you are asking these questions, that you are so obviously upset, means that things matter to you.
So i'll ask to you instead, why does it matter that things matter beyond personal level? Why is it important we have some existence beyond matter and energy? WHy is it important to be some sort of causality free agent, instead of culmination of billions of years of separate causal chains coming to a point?
I've suffered a ton of fuckin super fucked up abuse and spent most of my life after that in deep introspection picking apart the whys and hows of my behavior, and then promptly saying fuck those environmental factors i'm going to do my best to work against those casual factors change my behavior and become a better person. Its taken me the better part of 16 years I'd say. I'm not the shitty asshole my environment did and should have produced. I got through it via force of will, and i'm gonna be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise.
If you wanna shit on my ideology there i don't see why i can't call determinism useless garbage.
I don't even know what your ideology is, why would i want to shit on it? Well, unless your premillennial dispensationalist or something, in which case wait a moment as i go fetch a manure truck.
I think hard determinism, with absolutely no place for the possibility of an unknowable factor, is inherently flawed and morally bankrupt as a central ideology.
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
That's a pretty huge claim.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
Ha no in a computer i can tell you down to the bottom how it works. Like that's literally my life's work. Computers are understood. Humans are not.
Well duh, we make computers, well, you make computers.
I don't make computers, but i do know enough of basic science involved, binary, logic, programming, etc, that i can understand individual components, but there's a bit between if/and/or statements and playing warframe where things get fuzzy.
But i don't assume there is a magic spell somewhere in between.
We don't make brains, and we can't really take one apart and reassemble them.
But i don't know of anything that would make me assume brains are different, and plenty to make me think they are the same with computers.
I think hard determinism, with absolutely no place for the possibility of an unknowable factor, is inherently flawed and morally bankrupt as a central ideology.
If it is truly unknowable rather than just knowing very little about it, it is meaningless to us.
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
That's a pretty huge claim.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
Ha no in a computer i can tell you down to the bottom how it works. Like that's literally my life's work. Computers are understood. Humans are not.
Well duh, we make computers, well, you make computers.
I don't make computers, but i do know enough of basic science involved, binary, logic, programming, etc, that i can understand individual components, but there's a bit between if/and/or statements and playing warframe where things get fuzzy.
But i don't assume there is a magic spell somewhere in between.
We don't make brains, and we can't really take one apart and reassemble them.
But i don't know of anything that would make me assume brains are different, and plenty to make me think they are the same with computers.
And if someone can actually prove that out then I'll grant the premise, but at the moment all you got is a hypothesis that it's gotta be like that, and no actual proof that it absolutely is.
Sleep on
0
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
I think hard determinism, with absolutely no place for the possibility of an unknowable factor, is inherently flawed and morally bankrupt as a central ideology.
Why is it necessary for the motive force to come from some unknown source instead of the biological brain for human decisions to be considered special?
Is it simply that the material universe must be considered mundane by fiat? I think my material being is unique and special.
I am the only one of me, sitting here typing in this place and time, in all of the universe.
In all the infinite possibilities of time and space, my existence here and now proves that I must exist as uniquely me. Cogito, ergo sum.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
That's a pretty huge claim.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
Ha no in a computer i can tell you down to the bottom how it works. Like that's literally my life's work. Computers are understood. Humans are not.
Well duh, we make computers, well, you make computers.
I don't make computers, but i do know enough of basic science involved, binary, logic, programming, etc, that i can understand individual components, but there's a bit between if/and/or statements and playing warframe where things get fuzzy.
But i don't assume there is a magic spell somewhere in between.
We don't make brains, and we can't really take one apart and reassemble them.
But i don't know of anything that would make me assume brains are different, and plenty to make me think they are the same with computers.
And if someone can actually prove that out then I'll grant the premise, but at the moment all you got is a hypothesis that it's gotta be like that, and no actual proof that it absolutely is.
There is a ton of evidence for it. There has been tons of research on things like decision making, mental illnesses, etc. to show that everything is exactly as you would predict if determinism was true and nothing to disprove it. That is literally the best science can ever provide on anything.
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
That's a pretty huge claim.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
Ha no in a computer i can tell you down to the bottom how it works. Like that's literally my life's work. Computers are understood. Humans are not.
Well duh, we make computers, well, you make computers.
I don't make computers, but i do know enough of basic science involved, binary, logic, programming, etc, that i can understand individual components, but there's a bit between if/and/or statements and playing warframe where things get fuzzy.
But i don't assume there is a magic spell somewhere in between.
We don't make brains, and we can't really take one apart and reassemble them.
But i don't know of anything that would make me assume brains are different, and plenty to make me think they are the same with computers.
And if someone can actually prove that out then I'll grant the premise, but at the moment all you got is a hypothesis that it's gotta be like that, and no actual proof that it absolutely is.
We don't know that anything absolutely is.
Absolutes are not really a thing, except maybe in math. Everything we know leads towards one conclusion, brains are products of, and subjects to, causality. You are free to argue for existence of supernatural brain systems, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do.
I think hard determinism, with absolutely no place for the possibility of an unknowable factor, is inherently flawed and morally bankrupt as a central ideology.
If it is truly unknowable rather than just knowing very little about it, it is meaningless to us.
No it's literally the only thing that matters or is truly worth inspection or consideration.
Why keep myself or anyone else around?... because they are a miracle of causal forces that is seemingly not totally bound by them. Why the fuck would something like that exist, and what is it going to do next? Can't know because it's impossible both to chart all causal forces or determine the result those casual forces will end at because there's an unknowable core to our being threat we're not even close to figuring out in any real sense.
Why keep others around? Fuck why keep on keeping on yourself? Because of the fuckin unknown, because of the unpredictability.
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Sleep, you are the one insisting that feelings don't matter in a causal universe. I've previously tried to engage with you on it and you've ignored me.
No it's that the example you give, a mother's love for its child, is just a bunch of super complex dominoes with nothing special about it.
That's literally just the end point determinism runs to.
If i accept determinism as indisputable truth the only end point it runs to is that no life matters and yes universal erasure is fine. Like I said this train goes straight to "the only option is to not play the game" territory. I'm really not seeing how it ends in anything but that. Other than like, "lol cause humans are dumb and are forced to feel stuff".
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
That's a pretty huge claim.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
Ha no in a computer i can tell you down to the bottom how it works. Like that's literally my life's work. Computers are understood. Humans are not.
Well duh, we make computers, well, you make computers.
I don't make computers, but i do know enough of basic science involved, binary, logic, programming, etc, that i can understand individual components, but there's a bit between if/and/or statements and playing warframe where things get fuzzy.
But i don't assume there is a magic spell somewhere in between.
We don't make brains, and we can't really take one apart and reassemble them.
But i don't know of anything that would make me assume brains are different, and plenty to make me think they are the same with computers.
And if someone can actually prove that out then I'll grant the premise, but at the moment all you got is a hypothesis that it's gotta be like that, and no actual proof that it absolutely is.
We don't know that anything absolutely is.
Absolutes are not really a thing, except maybe in math. Everything we know leads towards one conclusion, brains are products of, and subjects to, causality. You are free to argue for existence of supernatural brain systems, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do.
Again i'm not denying science I'm denying you actually totally know what's going on in here. Yeah i've got all the brain meats everyone else does. Chemical imbalances are a thing that can affect decision making, but there's a gap there where we don't actually know exactly how all those chemicals work for sure. It's why some drugs work for some folks and don't for others, and why the tuning process is different for everyone even with folks with similar issues. Because we aren't really experts at exact psychopharmacology and sometimes the thing that's supposed to make you feel better makes you kill yourself.
Like sure if you wanna live in universe where there's absolutely no mystery there... great. I don't get why you get to be all superior about it and insist your framing is the only non laughable truth.
Do you think that we believe that there is no mystery to the material universe?
There are an insane, infinite, unknown number of possibilities within this universe to explore.
Like, we're no where even close to reconciling quantum mechanics with general relativity, just to begin with.
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
That is because we're talking about whether the supernatural phenomenon of free will is necessary for meaning and morality in human life.
Its existence we've already placed in the realm of the unknowable, so now all that is left is to argue whether it is necessary. Like how a Christian theologian argues that the existence of God is necessary as a moral arbiter or a first cause.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
That is because we're talking about whether the supernatural phenomenon of free will is necessary for meaning and morality in human life.
Well then yeah, if we're agreed the gap is there and that determinism is as supernatural an explanation as a soul then yeah I'd say pretty definitely.
Cause if we are little more than hyper complex dominoes there's no good reason to care about anyone, even ourselves. That we do care is irrelevant because that is just a complex and similarly irrelevant dominoe display.
Like i said any moral framework has to ignore the end point determinism comes to because at the end of determinism we can kneel someone down blow their brains out, and what? That was always going to happen, no sense crying over the rocks the universe broke.
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
That is because we're talking about whether the supernatural phenomenon of free will is necessary for meaning and morality in human life.
Well then yeah, if we're agreed the gap is there and that determinism is as supernatural an explanation as a soul then yeah I'd say pretty definitely.
Cause if we are little more than hyper complex dominoes there's no good reason to care about anyone, even ourselves. That we do care is irrelevant because that is just a complex and similarly irrelevant dominoe display.
Like i said any moral framework has to ignore the end point determinism comes to because at the end of determinism we can kneel someone down blow their brains out, and what? That was always going to happen, no sense crying over the eggs the universe broke.
Consider humanity as it is now. We exist as creatures of moral societies, regardless of whether determinism holds or not, regardless of whether or not we have free will. We always maintain some sort of morality, no matter how base we are. Even the worst gangbanger looks out for his brother in arms.
We were as we are even before our philosophers conceived of the notion of free will.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I think hard determinism, with absolutely no place for the possibility of an unknowable factor, is inherently flawed and morally bankrupt as a central ideology.
If it is truly unknowable rather than just knowing very little about it, it is meaningless to us.
I think the thing people are missing here is that we KNOW the universe is random and knowable. Like, this is literally how it works. It may be hard to understand since we interact with classical mechanics governed macro scale objects all the time, but even those are massively affected by quantum randomness. The universe is NOT deterministic (unless we live in a simulation with bad QM implementation). Arguing about how pure determinism in the universe affects human morality and life experience is like arguing about how the fact the world is flat affects human morality and life experience. The world is not flat, and it's not deterministic. Truly random events happen, they effect large scale objects. We can do a great job measuring large objects and how they move and interact right now, but we CANNOT predict where they will be long term. The bigger the object is, and the lower 'energy' the things interacting with it are the better a job we can do, but on a long enough timescale quantum mechanics wins and the universe cannot be predicted. EVERY object that exists is not a single point item with exact properties. It is ALWAYS a probability distribution governed by true randomness.
For gas molecules bouncing around in a jar, quantum mechanics wins after 1 or 2 collisions. We live in a random, but measurable after the fact universe. Humans have a memory of events, and the memory of those events, combined with random factors and pseudo random factors controls how we act.
If Free will is not 'Being informed by your memory of how things went before, but not in such a way that you are perfectly predictable and not in such a way in which you will always react to the same measured external stimuli in the same way (because your brain is ALSO continuously generating true random interactions)" then what IS Free Will? Because short of 'Free Will is the act of possessing a soul' then what other definition can anyone present?
Time exists, randomness exists. The domino universe does not. It is no more real than the disc-world. And as such, has no meaning in a conversation about how it disproves free will in real humans.
If you are looking for a 'like, nothing matters man!' version of reality which can exist in modern physics then what you are looking for is multiverse physics. Which says that the way the universe generates those true random numbers for everything is by splitting itself every time any decision, change or measurement is made. And so, every decision that can be made, will be made in one universe. And thus do you truly have free will if you ALWAYS make every decision every time and all decisions are equally inspected and considered. If everything happens, does what you do matter?
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
That is because we're talking about whether the supernatural phenomenon of free will is necessary for meaning and morality in human life.
Well then yeah, if we're agreed the gap is there and that determinism is as supernatural an explanation as a soul then yeah I'd say pretty definitely.
Cause if we are little more than hyper complex dominoes there's no good reason to care about anyone, even ourselves. That we do care is irrelevant because that is just a complex and similarly irrelevant dominoe display.
Like i said any moral framework has to ignore the end point determinism comes to because at the end of determinism we can kneel someone down blow their brains out, and what? That was always going to happen, no sense crying over the eggs the universe broke.
Consider humanity as it is now. We exist as creatures of moral societies, regardless of whether determinism hold or not, regardless of whether we have free will. We always maintain some sort of morality, no matter how base we are. Even the worst gangbanger looks out for his brother in arms.
We have sociopaths.
If the only reason for morality is because of the societal consequences we built I'll point out most if not all of those moral frameworks were built on the idea of free will existing.
I could just wipe all those societies off the map and continue to not care. Again no sense crying over rocks the universe broke.
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
That is because we're talking about whether the supernatural phenomenon of free will is necessary for meaning and morality in human life.
Well then yeah, if we're agreed the gap is there and that determinism is as supernatural an explanation as a soul then yeah I'd say pretty definitely.
Cause if we are little more than hyper complex dominoes there's no good reason to care about anyone, even ourselves. That we do care is irrelevant because that is just a complex and similarly irrelevant dominoe display.
Like i said any moral framework has to ignore the end point determinism comes to because at the end of determinism we can kneel someone down blow their brains out, and what? That was always going to happen, no sense crying over the eggs the universe broke.
Consider humanity as it is now. We exist as creatures of moral societies, regardless of whether determinism hold or not, regardless of whether we have free will. We always maintain some sort of morality, no matter how base we are. Even the worst gangbanger looks out for his brother in arms.
We have sociopaths.
If the only reason for morality is because of the societal consequences we built I'll point out all of those moral frameworks were built on the idea of free will existing.
We had societies before we had the concept of free will. We have fundamental natural inclinations to righteousness and fairness, and for retribution towards wrongdoers.
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Even if the universe is purely mundane, we don't know the future. We cannot build a computer complex enough to predict the universe within the universe itself. Its like trying to solve the halting problem when the program being tested is a human brain.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
That is because we're talking about whether the supernatural phenomenon of free will is necessary for meaning and morality in human life.
Well then yeah, if we're agreed the gap is there and that determinism is as supernatural an explanation as a soul then yeah I'd say pretty definitely.
Cause if we are little more than hyper complex dominoes there's no good reason to care about anyone, even ourselves. That we do care is irrelevant because that is just a complex and similarly irrelevant dominoe display.
Like i said any moral framework has to ignore the end point determinism comes to because at the end of determinism we can kneel someone down blow their brains out, and what? That was always going to happen, no sense crying over the rocks the universe broke.
We are hyper complex domines, and there is a reason to care.
That reason? I don't like pain.
No, seriously, that's enough of a reason for fuck ton of shit, large parts of human society have been built on continued existence of an individual as something that is not in agony (be it due hunger, tigers or stab wounds), even if only because individuals in agony are generally (exceptions exist) not very productive towards continued existence of the community in general, or its rulers in specific.
I could just wipe all those societies off the map and continue to not care. Again no sense crying over rocks the universe broke.
What about free will makes it so that the person with it has value to you, and so that the person that does not have it has no value to you?
What does it fundamentally change about a person? Can you even tell if they have free will?
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Posts
What makes something special for you? What is the condition for "specialness"?
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Humans are made of matter like anything else made of matter, in that sense we're not special. Humans also are living, conscious, self-aware and creative, which are relatively rare properties in the world around us. If that doesn't make humans special in some sense of the term then I don't know if it actually means anything.
If the universal truth is that we are little more than inanimate objects... nothing.
I know this has been asked of you many times already and you haven't answered, but let's try again:
You say that life doesn't matter if the universe is based on cause and effect. In what way does life "matter" if the universe is somehow not based on cause and effect?
For some people the likelihood that humanity will annihilate itself in either nuclear fire or environmental exhaustion renders life meaningless, but others find liberation in the same thought.
If nothing matters, then we can do whatever we want without being judged. We're free from judgement by both history and God.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
So you seem to be committed to rejecting a naively reductive materialist/physicalist worldview, and that's fine, lots of people want to do that and develop different worldviews. Determinism is entailed by that worldview, but determinism also fits with more nuanced understandings of reality. I think you're blaming determinism for conclusions entailed by something else.
And we're back to dealing with Sleeps existential crisis. sigh...
Ok, at intergalactic scale, nothing matters, so what? At human level, things matter. We matter to ourselves, we matter to each other, we definitely matter to the IRS (not much, but we do).
The very fact that you are asking these questions, that you are so obviously upset, means that things matter to you.
So i'll ask to you instead, why does it matter that things matter beyond personal level? Why is it important we have some existence beyond matter and energy? WHy is it important to be some sort of causality free agent, instead of culmination of billions of years of separate causal chains coming to a point?
Here's the thing i don't deny cause and effect as elements of the universe.
The issue is that there's just a bunch of elements in here that you can't really prove the exact cause and effect for, there's a gap, something unknowable where "we" exist. Yes a miracle by which we attained a consciousness that can consider the very foundations of the universe. An inherent unpredictability you can't actually explain your way through. Something to elect to find meaning in because we have the power to choose to.
Under determinism any meaning I find is forced upon me.
I'm not really sure it is even unknown, not fully understood, sure, but i'm not sure if there is any individual part that is unknown, let alone unknowable.
At very tiny level, i understand how my computer works, it's all ones and zeroes and logic gates. But when looked as a whole, it is way beyond me.
I suspect same happens with human brains and people who study them.
I've suffered a ton of fuckin super fucked up abuse and spent most of my life after that in deep introspection picking apart the whys and hows of my behavior, and then promptly saying fuck those environmental factors i'm going to do my best to work against those casual factors change my behavior and become a better person. Its taken me the better part of 16 years I'd say. I'm not the shitty asshole my environment did and should have produced. I got through it via force of will, and i'm gonna be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise.
If you wanna shit on my ideology there i don't see why i can't call determinism useless garbage.
Ha no in a computer i can tell you down to the bottom how it works. Like that's literally my life's work. Computers are understood. Humans are not.
Humans are basically the definition of animate objects. I am animating to push buttons now. Maybe you mean something else?
In any event, it's worth noting that plenty of people are pretty enthusiastic about determinism, and it helps people out on a regular basis.
Free will creates a much less forgiving or actionable environment for anyone dealing with emotions or mental issues, because everything in your head is automatically all your fault and all up to you to fix. In a determinstic world, there is medication, therapy, changing your behaviors and environment, and knowing that there is actually a cause behind things other than you just choosing to feel that way.
Free will is terribly unkind to mental illness especially.
God of the gaps arguments are inherently flawed.
No one is saying that your experience is invalid when they say free will does not or may not exist. You remain uniquely the person you are whether or not it is due to biology and environment or an immortal soul.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I think hard determinism, with absolutely no place for the possibility of an unknowable factor, is inherently flawed and morally bankrupt as a central ideology.
I don't make computers, but i do know enough of basic science involved, binary, logic, programming, etc, that i can understand individual components, but there's a bit between if/and/or statements and playing warframe where things get fuzzy.
But i don't assume there is a magic spell somewhere in between.
We don't make brains, and we can't really take one apart and reassemble them.
But i don't know of anything that would make me assume brains are different, and plenty to make me think they are the same with computers.
If it is truly unknowable rather than just knowing very little about it, it is meaningless to us.
And if someone can actually prove that out then I'll grant the premise, but at the moment all you got is a hypothesis that it's gotta be like that, and no actual proof that it absolutely is.
Ok but we are manifestly animate objects. The conclusions you're drawing don't even make sense.
Determinism isn't an ideology.
Is it simply that the material universe must be considered mundane by fiat? I think my material being is unique and special.
I am the only one of me, sitting here typing in this place and time, in all of the universe.
In all the infinite possibilities of time and space, my existence here and now proves that I must exist as uniquely me. Cogito, ergo sum.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
There is a ton of evidence for it. There has been tons of research on things like decision making, mental illnesses, etc. to show that everything is exactly as you would predict if determinism was true and nothing to disprove it. That is literally the best science can ever provide on anything.
Absolutes are not really a thing, except maybe in math. Everything we know leads towards one conclusion, brains are products of, and subjects to, causality. You are free to argue for existence of supernatural brain systems, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously when you do.
No it's literally the only thing that matters or is truly worth inspection or consideration.
Why keep myself or anyone else around?... because they are a miracle of causal forces that is seemingly not totally bound by them. Why the fuck would something like that exist, and what is it going to do next? Can't know because it's impossible both to chart all causal forces or determine the result those casual forces will end at because there's an unknowable core to our being threat we're not even close to figuring out in any real sense.
Why keep others around? Fuck why keep on keeping on yourself? Because of the fuckin unknown, because of the unpredictability.
The supernatural is not required for unpredictability.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Again i'm not denying science I'm denying you actually totally know what's going on in here. Yeah i've got all the brain meats everyone else does. Chemical imbalances are a thing that can affect decision making, but there's a gap there where we don't actually know exactly how all those chemicals work for sure. It's why some drugs work for some folks and don't for others, and why the tuning process is different for everyone even with folks with similar issues. Because we aren't really experts at exact psychopharmacology and sometimes the thing that's supposed to make you feel better makes you kill yourself.
Like sure if you wanna live in universe where there's absolutely no mystery there... great. I don't get why you get to be all superior about it and insist your framing is the only non laughable truth.
There are an insane, infinite, unknown number of possibilities within this universe to explore.
Like, we're no where even close to reconciling quantum mechanics with general relativity, just to begin with.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I'm not arguing strictly for the supernatural.
I'm arguing there is an unknowable core that we call free will because there's a big fuckin gap no one can really successfully fill. Call it quantum uncertainty, or whatever the fuck you like. There's an unknown in there that can't be summarily erased or disregarded.
That is the same as arguing for the supernatural. Like, the word "supernatural" is exactly the word we use for what you are describing - unknowable things that cannot be tested for in the natural world.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
There's no way to truly test your hypothesis in the natural world it is as much a supernatural argument as mine.
That is because we're talking about whether the supernatural phenomenon of free will is necessary for meaning and morality in human life.
Its existence we've already placed in the realm of the unknowable, so now all that is left is to argue whether it is necessary. Like how a Christian theologian argues that the existence of God is necessary as a moral arbiter or a first cause.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Well then yeah, if we're agreed the gap is there and that determinism is as supernatural an explanation as a soul then yeah I'd say pretty definitely.
Cause if we are little more than hyper complex dominoes there's no good reason to care about anyone, even ourselves. That we do care is irrelevant because that is just a complex and similarly irrelevant dominoe display.
Like i said any moral framework has to ignore the end point determinism comes to because at the end of determinism we can kneel someone down blow their brains out, and what? That was always going to happen, no sense crying over the rocks the universe broke.
Consider humanity as it is now. We exist as creatures of moral societies, regardless of whether determinism holds or not, regardless of whether or not we have free will. We always maintain some sort of morality, no matter how base we are. Even the worst gangbanger looks out for his brother in arms.
We were as we are even before our philosophers conceived of the notion of free will.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I think the thing people are missing here is that we KNOW the universe is random and knowable. Like, this is literally how it works. It may be hard to understand since we interact with classical mechanics governed macro scale objects all the time, but even those are massively affected by quantum randomness. The universe is NOT deterministic (unless we live in a simulation with bad QM implementation). Arguing about how pure determinism in the universe affects human morality and life experience is like arguing about how the fact the world is flat affects human morality and life experience. The world is not flat, and it's not deterministic. Truly random events happen, they effect large scale objects. We can do a great job measuring large objects and how they move and interact right now, but we CANNOT predict where they will be long term. The bigger the object is, and the lower 'energy' the things interacting with it are the better a job we can do, but on a long enough timescale quantum mechanics wins and the universe cannot be predicted. EVERY object that exists is not a single point item with exact properties. It is ALWAYS a probability distribution governed by true randomness.
For gas molecules bouncing around in a jar, quantum mechanics wins after 1 or 2 collisions. We live in a random, but measurable after the fact universe. Humans have a memory of events, and the memory of those events, combined with random factors and pseudo random factors controls how we act.
If Free will is not 'Being informed by your memory of how things went before, but not in such a way that you are perfectly predictable and not in such a way in which you will always react to the same measured external stimuli in the same way (because your brain is ALSO continuously generating true random interactions)" then what IS Free Will? Because short of 'Free Will is the act of possessing a soul' then what other definition can anyone present?
Time exists, randomness exists. The domino universe does not. It is no more real than the disc-world. And as such, has no meaning in a conversation about how it disproves free will in real humans.
If you are looking for a 'like, nothing matters man!' version of reality which can exist in modern physics then what you are looking for is multiverse physics. Which says that the way the universe generates those true random numbers for everything is by splitting itself every time any decision, change or measurement is made. And so, every decision that can be made, will be made in one universe. And thus do you truly have free will if you ALWAYS make every decision every time and all decisions are equally inspected and considered. If everything happens, does what you do matter?
We have sociopaths.
If the only reason for morality is because of the societal consequences we built I'll point out most if not all of those moral frameworks were built on the idea of free will existing.
I could just wipe all those societies off the map and continue to not care. Again no sense crying over rocks the universe broke.
We had societies before we had the concept of free will. We have fundamental natural inclinations to righteousness and fairness, and for retribution towards wrongdoers.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
That reason? I don't like pain.
No, seriously, that's enough of a reason for fuck ton of shit, large parts of human society have been built on continued existence of an individual as something that is not in agony (be it due hunger, tigers or stab wounds), even if only because individuals in agony are generally (exceptions exist) not very productive towards continued existence of the community in general, or its rulers in specific.
What about free will makes it so that the person with it has value to you, and so that the person that does not have it has no value to you?
What does it fundamentally change about a person? Can you even tell if they have free will?
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".