So how do we target marginalized, discontent, isolated gamers, indoctrinate them into socially progressive liberalism, and strengthen their resistance to facism?
Driving forward without an attempt at engagement will 100% radicalized moderates against you.
We are engaging the moderates. Moderates don't find the concept of criticism an affront to man and gods.
Sounds less like engaging moderates and more preaching to the choir.
It's just head in the sand, over and over, forever. The methods can never be wrong, the message can never be wrong. It is the people who are wrong. It honestly feels a bit hopeless from where I'm standing. It's been a constant stream of doubling down upon double downs, for years, with the exact same results, and the conclusion inevitably returns to "it is the children who are wrong".
The assertion was that people who are moderates become fascists because progressives are mean to them.
I mean, I haven't seen anyone present any evidence that this happens, but it's basically being assumed to be true. Are you saying that the current problem with white supremacy was caused by the push for diversity? Or perhaps that the alt-right/nazi march in Charlotte wouldn't have erupted in violence if they were just allowed to call for the extermination of non-whites without anyone pushing back?
I guess the last bit might be true, but appeasement has been tried before and we saw how that went...
I am incredibly dubious of the idea that people decide it's okay to commit genocide because progressives are too mean. So maybe show me at least some kind of evidence that your premise, that we need to police our tone and refrain from any kind of aggressive response to threats and violence, in order to stop the current resurgence of nazism, has merit.
I've been keeping up with the thread and this isn't the argument, but it's continually what's being tilted at. The argument is that, like all radicalization, the movement is incremental and is not always entirely in the direction of the "alt-right" but is definitely away from "the Left". Looking at a ladder of radicalization for Salafist Jihadism, for example, you would see people being pushed away from "Western Liberal Democratic Values" for essentially the same reasons but to different extents ranging from leaning hard into legitimate criticisms of the interaction between the MENA and the West all the way to people willing to conduct violence, and IIRC this parallel was already alluded to a few pages ago.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
edited April 2019
That said, I think that some people far more talented than myself are making strides towards convincing alt right young men that there are other ways to see things. One of my favorites is Contrapoints - though I understand she is controversial in the trans world. But she quite brilliantly reaches a hand across to the right and talks to them on their terms. I don't see that she has any gamer-specific videos, but here's a good sample of her work: "Does the Left Hate Free Speech?"
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I mean, are we talking about the literal alt-right fascists or just that shithead that said that "women belong in the kitchen"? The first one isn't going to be rehabbed through just shooting the shit with the public, the second could be (though that's hard without a near-intervention of people whose opinions he respects telling him he's being a misogynist).
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
So how do we target marginalized, discontent, isolated gamers, indoctrinate them into socially progressive liberalism, and strengthen their resistance to facism?
Some of these folks aren't ever going to be "liberals" but they may be regular conservatives rather than deranged fascists/incels etc.
The best way is to moderate social media so that hate speech is deplatformed.
And schools need to work on bullying and providing social activities that appeal to the odd and awkward. My school had about 20 sports teams, some music clubs, and absolutely zilch for the nerdy type. No computer clubs, no dungeons and dragons club (there was one but I think it was boys only and didn't run very long), no chess club, no book club, nothing.
If you start gaming because you feel awkward and left out and bullied for being different, and then you identify as a gamer because it offers a community and that way you don’t feel awkward and left out, and then you defend that community by bullying people who are different from you, and then you join the alt-right because you’re still feeling awkward and left out and bullied, maybe the problem isn’t with somebody else, maybe the problem is that neither Magic nor misogyny are going to actually make you feel any happier, maybe the problem is you
While I think you are correct, there is an alt-right dude making the opposite argument. And he is more likely to get the recruit. Which in itself isn't a problem if your interest is being on the right/good side. But when majority rules, numbers matter. Maybe gamers going Alt-Right isn't a demographic we need to worry about, but it still feel bad to give it up when I think we need numbers on our side.
That's really been bugging me recently. Even assuming the liberal/left can regain control of the countries they have recently lost, how can you successfully govern an electorate composed of 20-30% 'deplorables' without further radicalizing that portion of the population. Education seems like way too long term a solution.
I mean we're dealing with people who think that women getting sexually assaulted is literally a less pressing and emotionally outrageous matter than women... making video games.
Like, how do you want us to engage with these people? It's kind of hard to not just immediately respond to them with "you're pathetic, get a fucking grip on reality" and then ignoring their childish tantrum. And incidentally? I think they're louder than before but I also think if we keep at it we can beat them. We can push back. But if someone... I'm going to say fetishises video games to the extent they do? Then there's not a lot of dialogue you can open with them. Like you go on a Facebook meme page and make friends with these nutters, see how far you get. They barely live in the same reality but I'm sure you can convince them that sexual assault in the industry is a bigger problem than being able to play a woman in Battlefield or whatever.
Because not all of them are, to quote The Wire, "too seasoned."
You can counteract bad ideas with discussion. I'm sure most of us can think of a shitty opinion we used to hold that we changed after someone took the time and gave us the respect to actually talk it through. Conversely, I'm sure people in this thread can point to times they've tried to debate something politely and not gotten through (maybe even with other posters here!). But while there's this sentiment of "well, we shouldn't have to put more effort into it than the alt-right/whoever does," there are a multitude of idioms of conventional wisdom that add up to the same thing: "being good takes a lot more work than being bad."
In theory, this argument sounds great - we can combat bad speech with more and better speech.
In practice, what winds up happening is that the marginalized are forced to repeatedly defend their existence.
The problem with talking about bullying as a root issue for right-wing gamers is that plenty of women, non-binary, non-straight and non-white people were also bullied in school for being nerdy.
So to then ask those same people to coddle the white men who were bullied for being nerdy...
If you start gaming because you feel awkward and left out and bullied for being different, and then you identify as a gamer because it offers a community and that way you don’t feel awkward and left out, and then you defend that community by bullying people who are different from you, and then you join the alt-right because you’re still feeling awkward and left out and bullied, maybe the problem isn’t with somebody else, maybe the problem is that neither Magic nor misogyny are going to actually make you feel any happier, maybe the problem is you
Even assuming the liberal/left can regain control of the countries they have recently lost, how can you successfully govern a populace composed of 20-30% 'deplorables' without further radicalizing that portion of the population. Education seems like way too long term a solution.
I think the big realization I've had over the last couple of years is that about 30% of people are always going to be "deplorables." They are people driven by hatred and fear of those different from themselves. This is a natural personality for them, or an effect of the isolation of a homogenous small town or rural area. These people existed in the past. They will always be with us, and stopping them from taking control is not an easy task with an easy answer.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
In practice, what winds up happening is that the marginalized are forced to repeatedly defend their existence.
Right up until the point where they're not. The suffragists made the case for a women's vote for decades. Now it's taken for granted in most westernised countries. And we see the same currently happening with civil unions compared to the opinions you might have seen on gay marriage 20/30 years ago. And I have little doubt that it'll happen with, for example, trans rights too.
While the possibility of backsliding always exists (ACA, for example, or for something further afield, the 1979 Afghanistan war), progressive attitudes do generally win. Obviously this isn't a "racism is over" situation, but the reality is that this approach is working.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
In practice, what winds up happening is that the marginalized are forced to repeatedly defend their existence.
Right up until the point where they're not. The suffragists made the case for a women's vote for decades. Now it's taken for granted in most westernised countries. And we see the same currently happening with civil unions compared to the opinions you might have seen on gay marriage 20/30 years ago. And I have little doubt that it'll happen with, for example, trans rights too.
While the possibility of backsliding always exists (ACA, for example, or for something further afield, the 1979 Afghanistan war), progressive attitudes do generally win. Obviously this isn't a "racism is over" situation, but the reality is that this approach is working.
They win because people fight and bleed and die and don't back down in the name of being "reasonable" to those that want to make their humanity disappear.
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
There is a word for what you're doing. It's called "Strawman." Because otherwise I'm not sure how you go from the quoted post to your conclusion. There's no insinuation in that post that the described person is in any way the majority.
And in fact saying as such is a common alt-right tactic. They like to pose as aggrieved moderates and go all "look what you made me do". But the actual number of people who do that in a single step is very small. So yes, we can safely write off the person Celestial described because there's not a lot of them, *and* most of the self-professed ones are actually alt-right people trolling. You tell them to go screw and ban them so they can't use that area as a recruiting ground. It's the person that grumbles and bitches but doesn't go full on bullshit instantly that you can work with.
(really you *can* work with the alt-right but the risk/reward isn't worth it).
The problem with talking about bullying as a root issue for right-wing gamers is that plenty of women, non-binary, non-straight and non-white people were also bullied in school for being nerdy.
So to then ask those same people to coddle the white men who were bullied for being nerdy...
I brought this up earlier in the thread, but popular media has more bad representation of nerdy straight white guys than it does other nerds (although that's because nerds who aren't straight white guys usually aren't represented at all in media; bad representation vs no representation).
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
They win because people fight and bleed and die and don't back down in the name of being "reasonable" to those that want to make their humanity disappear.
And also because they have people building bridges. For every Suffragette hunger striking, there was a Suffragist working with MPs to convince them to vote in parliament to give women the vote.
I've posted this before, despite it being a TED talk, because the research is sound:
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
The phrase you’re looking for is “imaginary nonsense”.
No one here has written off people who play video games. People here have written off anyone that repeatedly argue against their existence, advocate for systemic violence and oppression, consider anything that doesn’t cater to their specific preferences an affront to god, etc.
Those people are not moderates in any fashion and their hobby isn’t the reason they’re maligned.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
So how do we target marginalized, discontent, isolated gamers, indoctrinate them into socially progressive liberalism, and strengthen their resistance to facism?
I don't approve the use of "marginalized" in this instance as most toxic Gamers™ are white males and aren't lacking in that sense of institutional structuring.
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
Dunno it’s been pretty effective against Milo and company. Making it harder to spread information achieves exactly what it’s supposed to. It’s not intended to eliminate racism entirely.
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
Have you ever tried to talk these groups into revising their sentiments? I've gone head to head with both Incels and the hardcore gamer right, both. But those examples are too hard: I've tried to talk to you, a person who can actually express himself rationally and calmly on this forum - something those other groups are quite incapable of, by the way, but that doesn't mean I don't try with them. But I'm getting distracted, I've tried to directly address you about issues as important as accepting a "no" when a woman tells you no, and at using ever form of rhetoric I know of, I wasn't able to convince you of the importance of that. How can I, then, convince an alt-right gamer that it's OK for me, and POC, and QUILTBAG folk to play games, too? How can I talk them into seeing me as a human being? I couldn't even convince you of that fact!
No one's going to agree on everything. I don't want to drag our past conflicts here, but personally I feel we're not as far apart as you think. What we disagreed on was the finer points of the modern dating scene, not whether you were a human being or not. I'm sure there's other areas where we vehemently disagree too. Probably along the lines of free speech and the like? And... well... that's ok. I still see you us as being broadly on the same side despite some the views you hold.
I think the importance is finding common ground. That's the foundation, that's where growth begins. Based on your post, I can tell you that you probably think worse of them than they do of you. I'm thinking here of the gaming guild I've helped run for the past 5-6 years. SJW jokes galore, so many memes and a plethora of non-PC related discussion. It's also a great group of people that's at least half made up of minorities and poc. The guild lead is from the Philippines. 3/5 officers are from Taiwan and Vietnam. Two black americans, one Egyptian, a handful of women and then like 8-10 of us straight white males. This is what's in my mind when I'm talking about this stuff.
They should be on our team. They're not fascists by any stretch, they're not even really right! But they want nothing to do with the left, and they think the left wants nothing to do with them. And given the thread here I can't really say they're wrong. The vast majority of people I've interacted with in my years gaming fit roughly the same profile. Plenty of assholes but the majority just people trying to fit in their community and have a good time, and almost universally I've found a poisoned well when it comes to the left, liberals and progressives. People consider them be sex-negative, prudish, anti-violence and oversensitive to pretty much everything. Projection? Sure, whatever. But reputation's a reputation, and there's a huge number of people--non-facist, normal, "moderate" people--who just want nothing to do with the left. And based off of my interactions with the "Left" on these matters in general (both here and elsewhere) the left doesn't want them either. It's easier to write them off and bundle them up in a nice, neat "alt right package".
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in. We categorically do not do that. We look for reasons to call someone out or shut them up or shut them out. And then we are surprised that they draw in the people we shut out or told were unwelcome.
In the end, I'm not trying to say there's this huge majority of good, honest, perfect people the left rudely and needless rejected. That's not it. I'm saying there's a huge number of people who could be on our side--not wholly, not bought in on every issue and point of ideology--but broadly and that would be awesome! Not everyone's going to be a fanatic, not everyone is going to be invested in it like you guys are, not everyone is going to be on the cutting edge and passionate about diversity and all that shit and they don't have to be. It is better that they're broadly on our side than on the other, and it is unnerving to me that we cannot recognize that. It is unnerving that we do not understand the word Compromise. The well is poisoned and it doesn't matter who poisoned it, we can deal with it or not and the prevailing opinion here is not.
I'm at work and it's hastily written, so I apologize if it's slightly sloppy, I attempted to make it coherent.
Frankiedarling on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
I mean, the reason they had to move to once removed dogwhistles is that they started getting shunned. That shows it is, in fact, working. You're not going to get people to stop being racist altogether, but you can make it as difficult as possible. As for deplatforming, Milo has had a much harder time of it, for example. It does work, and is the most effective move we have, which is why facebook and twitter's permissive bullshit is so dangerous.
The problem with talking about bullying as a root issue for right-wing gamers is that plenty of women, non-binary, non-straight and non-white people were also bullied in school for being nerdy.
So to then ask those same people to coddle the white men who were bullied for being nerdy...
I brought this up earlier in the thread, but popular media has more bad representation of nerdy straight white guys than it does other nerds (although that's because nerds who aren't straight white guys usually aren't represented at all in media; bad representation vs no representation).
I mean people of colour, women, gay people, and everyone else outside that group have been trashed pretty significantly in society and we haven't formed hate groups yet.
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
So is your argument there'd be an equal or smaller amount of racists in the country if racists weren't deplatformed?
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
The Civil Rights Movement happened only a couple decades before I was born. I am three decades old, to put that into perspective. There hasn't been anywhere NEAR enough time to root out racism on the societal level. Fucking, most of the people who are being loud mouth racists right now were alive during and fought against that movement. Their numbers seem bigger because they've been able to poison their kids' (who are adults now) minds with that crap.
We're not dealing with a new racist group. It's the same people, the same families, one - MAYBE two - generations removed.
The problem with talking about bullying as a root issue for right-wing gamers is that plenty of women, non-binary, non-straight and non-white people were also bullied in school for being nerdy.
So to then ask those same people to coddle the white men who were bullied for being nerdy...
I brought this up earlier in the thread, but popular media has more bad representation of nerdy straight white guys than it does other nerds (although that's because nerds who aren't straight white guys usually aren't represented at all in media; bad representation vs no representation).
I mean people of colour, women, gay people, and everyone else outside that group have been trashed pretty significantly in society and we haven't formed hate groups yet.
Earlier in the thread it was suggested by another poster that some groups like that did exist but were put down by the U.S. government while white supremacist groups were allowed to persist.
Women, for whatever reason, aren't likely to be violent in general, and even female murderers are more likely to premeditate their crimes than men are.
Also, I'd certainly describe some leftists as hateful, but in a way that is popularly approved of by many on the left.
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
Have you ever tried to talk these groups into revising their sentiments? I've gone head to head with both Incels and the hardcore gamer right, both. But those examples are too hard: I've tried to talk to you, a person who can actually express himself rationally and calmly on this forum - something those other groups are quite incapable of, by the way, but that doesn't mean I don't try with them. But I'm getting distracted, I've tried to directly address you about issues as important as accepting a "no" when a woman tells you no, and at using ever form of rhetoric I know of, I wasn't able to convince you of the importance of that. How can I, then, convince an alt-right gamer that it's OK for me, and POC, and QUILTBAG folk to play games, too? How can I talk them into seeing me as a human being? I couldn't even convince you of that fact!
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in.
Pshaw. They are not. I've met these guys and they are very exclusionary. You have to be their version of "PC" or they hate you. You can't just be racist, for instance, you also have to be misogynist, homophobic and transphobic all at once or you will get trouble.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Remember that the alt-right event in Charlottesville was called “Unite the Right” because there are hundreds of tiny, exclusionary hate groups and they all struggle to get along with one another.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Look, it's important to have this discussion about the best way to combat the rampant far-right movements in our subcultures, but at the same time I feel like some people here are literally asking us to prioritise the feelings of actual fascists over the very pressing day to day problems of persecuted minorities, women, our LGBT friends and allies etc. I'm much more active in the wargaming community than in the video game community and the problem is there too. I have repeatedly said that I thought female miniature soldiers in a particular game would be way cooler without combat heels and I have been called a repressed prude and also a soyboy SJW crypto-sexual-predator for it. These people don't think that games should have gay characters in it and dress it up as "well what does their sexuality have to do with their role in the fictional military here?" but then when pressed don't think that gay people should be in movies or be allowed to express themselves physically in public because it destroys the morals of children.
And fuck that guy! I'm not going to try to open up and engage with him in a respectful dialogue because he's clearly a fucking dick, but I will fiercely argue the point against him to try to make it clear that this shit is not okay. To try to combat it, to make it always an argument when it comes up, so that it stops being something people can just say and get away with, to show people that the entire community will not just roll over and let people do that because it's too awkward to do so over, basically stating that our social comfort is more important than protecting the core right to freely express of our fellow citizens. That isn't right.
The alt right, a community dedicated to hatefully and even violently excluding people from spaces based on racism, sexism, and a whole other host of other phobic views, is a “big tent”.
I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means.
They should be on our team. They're not fascists by any stretch, they're not even really right! But they want nothing to do with the left, and they think the left wants nothing to do with them. And given the thread here I can't really say they're wrong. The vast majority of people I've interacted with in my years gaming fit roughly the same profile. Plenty of assholes but the majority just people trying to fit in their community and have a good time, and almost universally I've found a poisoned well when it comes to the left, liberals and progressives. People consider them be sex-negative, prudish, anti-violence and oversensitive to pretty much everything. Projection? Sure, whatever. But reputation's a reputation, and there's a huge number of people--non-facist, normal, "moderate" people--who just want nothing to do with the left. And based off of my interactions with the "Left" on these matters in general (both here and elsewhere) the left doesn't want them either. It's easier to write them off and bundle them up in a nice, neat "alt right package".
If they're primarily consuming media from 4chan or reddit in the form of memes and jokes and the like, why do you think it's the left's fault for how they perceive the left? They're getting their impressions from the right, who have a vested interest in portraying the left as shrill and uncompromising and evil!
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
Have you ever tried to talk these groups into revising their sentiments? I've gone head to head with both Incels and the hardcore gamer right, both. But those examples are too hard: I've tried to talk to you, a person who can actually express himself rationally and calmly on this forum - something those other groups are quite incapable of, by the way, but that doesn't mean I don't try with them. But I'm getting distracted, I've tried to directly address you about issues as important as accepting a "no" when a woman tells you no, and at using ever form of rhetoric I know of, I wasn't able to convince you of the importance of that. How can I, then, convince an alt-right gamer that it's OK for me, and POC, and QUILTBAG folk to play games, too? How can I talk them into seeing me as a human being? I couldn't even convince you of that fact!
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in.
Pshaw. They are not. I've met these guys and they are very exclusionary. You have to be their version of "PC" or they hate you. You can't just be racist, for instance, you also have to be misogynist, homophobic and transphobic all at once or you will get trouble.
Their outreach is open tent as fuck because they're not stupid. They understand the meaning of the word compromise, and they know how to slow boil a damn frog. Our barrier to entry is so damn high compared to theirs. Like, go take a look at the communities you think are alt right gateways. All you need is a "hey guys I was banned from X cuz some SJW got mad about my joke what's up!" and you'll get an open arms welcome. And Bam! You're in, and let the slow boil begin.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
The alt right, a community dedicated to hatefully and even violently excluding people from spaces based on racism, sexism, and a whole other host of other phobic views, is a “big tent”.
I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means.
I suspect the implication is that the structure is similar to #GG.
You have the primary core, the 5 Guys IRC chat and Gjoni equivalent, who know exactly what is going on and what the goal is. They literally take joy in playing at "psy ops" and other such bullshit, and view it as an intellectual war where anything goes.
You have the close surrounding followers, who may not know the exact plans, but are willing to go along with the fight because it's a fight they've felt always a part of.
You have the anarchist group, who will always play the troll, and just want to stir shit up and laugh at people's responses, because they use the internet to fulfil their need for malice.
And you have a much larger group of low information people, who only engage on a few particular topics, but will easily repeat the main taglines as necessary, giving the impression of a much larger, more committed group. The group who you tell them they're under attack and to circle the wagons, and they'll take you at your word.
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
I mean, the reason they had to move to once removed dogwhistles is that they started getting shunned. That shows it is, in fact, working. You're not going to get people to stop being racist altogether, but you can make it as difficult as possible. As for deplatforming, Milo has had a much harder time of it, for example. It does work, and is the most effective move we have, which is why facebook and twitter's permissive bullshit is so dangerous.
I have a hard time considering a result where someone like Trump can be put into power on a wave of racism any kind of success. Making them use dogwhistles seems to me to have failed utterly at actually dealing with the problem.
I am really unconvinced that deplatforming will work. That's basically what we did to racists. And so they just started using dog whistles. And then dog whistles of those dog whistles. And then surprise decades later when someone is willing to just be openly racist there is this huge pool of people who turns out are actually pretty racist still and raring to go.
So is your argument there'd be an equal or smaller amount of racists in the country if racists weren't deplatformed?
My argument is that without a positive campaign to get people on board with the ideal world we want to create you are just hiding the problem not dealing with it. Hoping that people will just die off and the next generation will not be X anymore because you can't go on CNN anymore and call people racial slurs or because Piewdiepie gets banned from YouTube.
Honestly you will probably just manage to get all alt right messaging removing from social media right in time to find out that all the young people are on VR Chat now and woops no one was moderating that.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
Have you ever tried to talk these groups into revising their sentiments? I've gone head to head with both Incels and the hardcore gamer right, both. But those examples are too hard: I've tried to talk to you, a person who can actually express himself rationally and calmly on this forum - something those other groups are quite incapable of, by the way, but that doesn't mean I don't try with them. But I'm getting distracted, I've tried to directly address you about issues as important as accepting a "no" when a woman tells you no, and at using ever form of rhetoric I know of, I wasn't able to convince you of the importance of that. How can I, then, convince an alt-right gamer that it's OK for me, and POC, and QUILTBAG folk to play games, too? How can I talk them into seeing me as a human being? I couldn't even convince you of that fact!
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in.
Pshaw. They are not. I've met these guys and they are very exclusionary. You have to be their version of "PC" or they hate you. You can't just be racist, for instance, you also have to be misogynist, homophobic and transphobic all at once or you will get trouble.
Their outreach is open tent as fuck because they're not stupid. They understand the meaning of the word compromise, and they know how to slow boil a damn frog. Our barrier to entry is so damn high compared to theirs. Like, go take a look at the communities you think are alt right gateways. All you need is a "hey guys I was banned from X cuz some SJW got mad about my joke what's up!" and you'll get an open arms welcome. And Bam! You're in, and let the slow boil begin.
And otherwise be the exact kind of person they prefer within a very narrow definition of what’s acceptable, prepared to hate even yourself. If you don’t, they’re ready to ban you all the faster.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that for a lot of people, pwning soyboy cucks for lulz is all that matters. They don't want to engage in a meaningful dialogue. They simply want to watch their opposition squirm. Not all, but a lot, certainly. And, having difficulty separating that noise from whatever signal is emanating from that side of the political spectrum is, in itself, a tactic.
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
If finding out that, I dunno, non-het relationships are in video games causes you (generic you) to become a member of a misogynistic homophobic white supremacist movement then you are not someone that could have really been engaged with constructively anyway, because you have a greater emotional connection to the "purity" of video games than you do to other human beings, and are a reactionary fascist.
There's a lot of people who CAN become fascists in the right political climate but mostly won't become fascists in normal circumstances.
There's something odd that goes off in people's brains when it comes to politics. Take prison, for example. I've seen this board argue passionately for prison reform focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment, because we believe people can change. Even people who have done awful things! I've seen it for myself in real life! I worked with a murderer turned youth pastor in Southern California, never met a humbler guy.
But when it comes to gamers, we're *so fucking ready* to write off a vast majority of them as hopeless, reactionary fascists that can't be reasoned with or brought around.
Is there a word for this? For the utter irrationality that politics can inflict upon us? There should be.
Have you ever tried to talk these groups into revising their sentiments? I've gone head to head with both Incels and the hardcore gamer right, both. But those examples are too hard: I've tried to talk to you, a person who can actually express himself rationally and calmly on this forum - something those other groups are quite incapable of, by the way, but that doesn't mean I don't try with them. But I'm getting distracted, I've tried to directly address you about issues as important as accepting a "no" when a woman tells you no, and at using ever form of rhetoric I know of, I wasn't able to convince you of the importance of that. How can I, then, convince an alt-right gamer that it's OK for me, and POC, and QUILTBAG folk to play games, too? How can I talk them into seeing me as a human being? I couldn't even convince you of that fact!
No one's going to agree on everything. I don't want to drag our past conflicts here, but personally I feel we're not as far apart as you think. What we disagreed on was the finer points of the modern dating scene, not whether you were a human being or not. I'm sure there's other areas where we vehemently disagree too. Probably along the lines of free speech and the like? And... well... that's ok. I still see you us as being broadly on the same side despite some the views you hold.
I think the importance is finding common ground. That's the foundation, that's where growth begins. Based on your post, I can tell you that you probably think worse of them than they do of you. I'm thinking here of the gaming guild I've helped run for the past 5-6 years. SJW jokes galore, so many memes and a plethora of non-PC related discussion. It's also a great group of people that's at least half made up of minorities and poc. The guild lead is from the Philippines. 3/5 officers are from Taiwan and Vietnam. Two black americans, one Egyptian, a handful of women and then like 8-10 of us straight white males. This is what's in my mind when I'm talking about this stuff.
They should be on our team. They're not fascists by any stretch, they're not even really right! But they want nothing to do with the left, and they think the left wants nothing to do with them. And given the thread here I can't really say they're wrong. The vast majority of people I've interacted with in my years gaming fit roughly the same profile. Plenty of assholes but the majority just people trying to fit in their community and have a good time, and almost universally I've found a poisoned well when it comes to the left, liberals and progressives. People consider them be sex-negative, prudish, anti-violence and oversensitive to pretty much everything. Projection? Sure, whatever. But reputation's a reputation, and there's a huge number of people--non-facist, normal, "moderate" people--who just want nothing to do with the left. And based off of my interactions with the "Left" on these matters in general (both here and elsewhere) the left doesn't want them either. It's easier to write them off and bundle them up in a nice, neat "alt right package".
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in. We categorically do not do that. We look for reasons to call someone out or shut them up or shut them out. And then we are surprised that they draw in the people we shut out or told were unwelcome.
In the end, I'm not trying to say there's this huge majority of good, honest, perfect people the left rudely and needless rejected. That's not it. I'm saying there's a huge number of people who could be on our side--not wholly, not bought in on every issue and point of ideology--but broadly and that would be awesome! Not everyone's going to be a fanatic, not everyone is going to be invested in it like you guys are, not everyone is going to be on the cutting edge and passionate about diversity and all that shit and they don't have to be. It is better that they're broadly on our side than on the other, and it is unnerving to me that we cannot recognize that. It is unnerving that we do not understand the word Compromise. The well is poisoned and it doesn't matter who poisoned it, we can deal with it or not and the prevailing opinion here is not.
I'm at work and it's hastily written, so I apologize if it's slightly sloppy, I attempted to make it coherent.
I was there; I was one of the women desperately trying to convince you that "No" doesn't mean "try harder." That the bolded is how you remember it is exactly the problem Cambiata is describing: when marginalized people say, "Please stop doing violence to us," too often, the response they get is "we're not."
edit: removed old draft that also happened to be dumb
I mean, I've been members of guilds like that, too. Where the dudes used slurs like tr**y constantly, and I was too embarrassed and uncomfortable to say anything. The one time I spoke up it was because a dude was saying PSTD was a fake illness and I argued with him about it. So it makes me wonder, how many of those ladies in your guild are uncomfortable with certain things, but say nothing in order to be "welcoming"? In order to be one of the guys? That's what I mean by not seeing women as people, that you have a space - like many spaces I have been a part of and must continue to be a part of as long as I am a working woman and a games enthusiast, and take part in any scene other than this one - and as long as it conforms to what makes men comfortable, that's the same as it being open to everyone. Because women's thoughts don't count for anything.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
Look, it's important to have this discussion about the best way to combat the rampant far-right movements in our subcultures, but at the same time I feel like some people here are literally asking us to prioritise the feelings of actual fascists over the very pressing day to day problems of persecuted minorities, women, our LGBT friends and allies etc.
Personally I'm not that interested in trying to de-radicalize existing Alt-Righters as I am in preventing more people from joining the Alt-Right. However, I also feel a significant portion of the people that the Alt-Right attracts are people who are themselves victims of discrimination, such as ableism against the neurodivergent and/or emotionally abused. The feeling I get often, and that I think at least some of these people get, is that the Left only cares about intersectionality in terms of ableism if the person isn't also a white male, at which point it's apparently assumed that the individual's whiteness and/or maleness will nullify the ableist discrimination or emotional abuse they have faced.
Internalised vengeance for bullying (or envy at those not bullied, or dislike for people who co-exist happily with popular bullies) is definitely a thing. People, as they mature, or just watch others succeed, see just how much social cachet and networking play into success in life, often far moreso than talent. So recognising that individual bullies have been gatekeeping you from that, and others were complacent enough to stand by, or even laud bullies, is a pretty powerful motivator for hatred, yes. The bullies themselves actively fucked with your development to compensate for their own insecurities, and the rest of society treats this as perfectly normal, hypocrites that they are!
I'll also say that, while I imagine she doesn't agree with me as much as I do with her, I also find myself agreeing with Cambiata very often in this thread. I appreciate her take because she seems to be uniquely understanding in regards to the impacts of bullying and trying to empathize with others.
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I've been keeping up with the thread and this isn't the argument, but it's continually what's being tilted at. The argument is that, like all radicalization, the movement is incremental and is not always entirely in the direction of the "alt-right" but is definitely away from "the Left". Looking at a ladder of radicalization for Salafist Jihadism, for example, you would see people being pushed away from "Western Liberal Democratic Values" for essentially the same reasons but to different extents ranging from leaning hard into legitimate criticisms of the interaction between the MENA and the West all the way to people willing to conduct violence, and IIRC this parallel was already alluded to a few pages ago.
Potentially NSFW:
Some of these folks aren't ever going to be "liberals" but they may be regular conservatives rather than deranged fascists/incels etc.
The best way is to moderate social media so that hate speech is deplatformed.
And schools need to work on bullying and providing social activities that appeal to the odd and awkward. My school had about 20 sports teams, some music clubs, and absolutely zilch for the nerdy type. No computer clubs, no dungeons and dragons club (there was one but I think it was boys only and didn't run very long), no chess club, no book club, nothing.
While I think you are correct, there is an alt-right dude making the opposite argument. And he is more likely to get the recruit. Which in itself isn't a problem if your interest is being on the right/good side. But when majority rules, numbers matter. Maybe gamers going Alt-Right isn't a demographic we need to worry about, but it still feel bad to give it up when I think we need numbers on our side.
That's really been bugging me recently. Even assuming the liberal/left can regain control of the countries they have recently lost, how can you successfully govern an electorate composed of 20-30% 'deplorables' without further radicalizing that portion of the population. Education seems like way too long term a solution.
In theory, this argument sounds great - we can combat bad speech with more and better speech.
In practice, what winds up happening is that the marginalized are forced to repeatedly defend their existence.
So to then ask those same people to coddle the white men who were bullied for being nerdy...
I think the big realization I've had over the last couple of years is that about 30% of people are always going to be "deplorables." They are people driven by hatred and fear of those different from themselves. This is a natural personality for them, or an effect of the isolation of a homogenous small town or rural area. These people existed in the past. They will always be with us, and stopping them from taking control is not an easy task with an easy answer.
While the possibility of backsliding always exists (ACA, for example, or for something further afield, the 1979 Afghanistan war), progressive attitudes do generally win. Obviously this isn't a "racism is over" situation, but the reality is that this approach is working.
They win because people fight and bleed and die and don't back down in the name of being "reasonable" to those that want to make their humanity disappear.
There is a word for what you're doing. It's called "Strawman." Because otherwise I'm not sure how you go from the quoted post to your conclusion. There's no insinuation in that post that the described person is in any way the majority.
And in fact saying as such is a common alt-right tactic. They like to pose as aggrieved moderates and go all "look what you made me do". But the actual number of people who do that in a single step is very small. So yes, we can safely write off the person Celestial described because there's not a lot of them, *and* most of the self-professed ones are actually alt-right people trolling. You tell them to go screw and ban them so they can't use that area as a recruiting ground. It's the person that grumbles and bitches but doesn't go full on bullshit instantly that you can work with.
(really you *can* work with the alt-right but the risk/reward isn't worth it).
I brought this up earlier in the thread, but popular media has more bad representation of nerdy straight white guys than it does other nerds (although that's because nerds who aren't straight white guys usually aren't represented at all in media; bad representation vs no representation).
I've posted this before, despite it being a TED talk, because the research is sound:
Non-violent resistance and building alliances is an effective mechanism for permanent change.
The phrase you’re looking for is “imaginary nonsense”.
No one here has written off people who play video games. People here have written off anyone that repeatedly argue against their existence, advocate for systemic violence and oppression, consider anything that doesn’t cater to their specific preferences an affront to god, etc.
Those people are not moderates in any fashion and their hobby isn’t the reason they’re maligned.
Dunno it’s been pretty effective against Milo and company. Making it harder to spread information achieves exactly what it’s supposed to. It’s not intended to eliminate racism entirely.
No one's going to agree on everything. I don't want to drag our past conflicts here, but personally I feel we're not as far apart as you think. What we disagreed on was the finer points of the modern dating scene, not whether you were a human being or not. I'm sure there's other areas where we vehemently disagree too. Probably along the lines of free speech and the like? And... well... that's ok. I still see you us as being broadly on the same side despite some the views you hold.
I think the importance is finding common ground. That's the foundation, that's where growth begins. Based on your post, I can tell you that you probably think worse of them than they do of you. I'm thinking here of the gaming guild I've helped run for the past 5-6 years. SJW jokes galore, so many memes and a plethora of non-PC related discussion. It's also a great group of people that's at least half made up of minorities and poc. The guild lead is from the Philippines. 3/5 officers are from Taiwan and Vietnam. Two black americans, one Egyptian, a handful of women and then like 8-10 of us straight white males. This is what's in my mind when I'm talking about this stuff.
They should be on our team. They're not fascists by any stretch, they're not even really right! But they want nothing to do with the left, and they think the left wants nothing to do with them. And given the thread here I can't really say they're wrong. The vast majority of people I've interacted with in my years gaming fit roughly the same profile. Plenty of assholes but the majority just people trying to fit in their community and have a good time, and almost universally I've found a poisoned well when it comes to the left, liberals and progressives. People consider them be sex-negative, prudish, anti-violence and oversensitive to pretty much everything. Projection? Sure, whatever. But reputation's a reputation, and there's a huge number of people--non-facist, normal, "moderate" people--who just want nothing to do with the left. And based off of my interactions with the "Left" on these matters in general (both here and elsewhere) the left doesn't want them either. It's easier to write them off and bundle them up in a nice, neat "alt right package".
That is the difference between us and the alt right. The alt right is a big tent. They're focused on finding common ground to draw people in. We categorically do not do that. We look for reasons to call someone out or shut them up or shut them out. And then we are surprised that they draw in the people we shut out or told were unwelcome.
In the end, I'm not trying to say there's this huge majority of good, honest, perfect people the left rudely and needless rejected. That's not it. I'm saying there's a huge number of people who could be on our side--not wholly, not bought in on every issue and point of ideology--but broadly and that would be awesome! Not everyone's going to be a fanatic, not everyone is going to be invested in it like you guys are, not everyone is going to be on the cutting edge and passionate about diversity and all that shit and they don't have to be. It is better that they're broadly on our side than on the other, and it is unnerving to me that we cannot recognize that. It is unnerving that we do not understand the word Compromise. The well is poisoned and it doesn't matter who poisoned it, we can deal with it or not and the prevailing opinion here is not.
I'm at work and it's hastily written, so I apologize if it's slightly sloppy, I attempted to make it coherent.
I mean, the reason they had to move to once removed dogwhistles is that they started getting shunned. That shows it is, in fact, working. You're not going to get people to stop being racist altogether, but you can make it as difficult as possible. As for deplatforming, Milo has had a much harder time of it, for example. It does work, and is the most effective move we have, which is why facebook and twitter's permissive bullshit is so dangerous.
I mean people of colour, women, gay people, and everyone else outside that group have been trashed pretty significantly in society and we haven't formed hate groups yet.
So is your argument there'd be an equal or smaller amount of racists in the country if racists weren't deplatformed?
We're not dealing with a new racist group. It's the same people, the same families, one - MAYBE two - generations removed.
Earlier in the thread it was suggested by another poster that some groups like that did exist but were put down by the U.S. government while white supremacist groups were allowed to persist.
Women, for whatever reason, aren't likely to be violent in general, and even female murderers are more likely to premeditate their crimes than men are.
Also, I'd certainly describe some leftists as hateful, but in a way that is popularly approved of by many on the left.
Pshaw. They are not. I've met these guys and they are very exclusionary. You have to be their version of "PC" or they hate you. You can't just be racist, for instance, you also have to be misogynist, homophobic and transphobic all at once or you will get trouble.
I have a friend on facebook who describes himself as "an SJW", who constantly makes posts about being irritated when a TV series or film gets a female lead, and describes the 80s as having better representation than modern film and TV. He believes we've already reached male/female equality. He's not a terrible guy. But like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience. That's what I mean by not accepting me as a fellow human. That my words can only be "real" to certain people if I'm a man.
Even white nationalism groups are able to recruit POC now, based on mutual distrust of women.
And fuck that guy! I'm not going to try to open up and engage with him in a respectful dialogue because he's clearly a fucking dick, but I will fiercely argue the point against him to try to make it clear that this shit is not okay. To try to combat it, to make it always an argument when it comes up, so that it stops being something people can just say and get away with, to show people that the entire community will not just roll over and let people do that because it's too awkward to do so over, basically stating that our social comfort is more important than protecting the core right to freely express of our fellow citizens. That isn't right.
I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means.
If they're primarily consuming media from 4chan or reddit in the form of memes and jokes and the like, why do you think it's the left's fault for how they perceive the left? They're getting their impressions from the right, who have a vested interest in portraying the left as shrill and uncompromising and evil!
Their outreach is open tent as fuck because they're not stupid. They understand the meaning of the word compromise, and they know how to slow boil a damn frog. Our barrier to entry is so damn high compared to theirs. Like, go take a look at the communities you think are alt right gateways. All you need is a "hey guys I was banned from X cuz some SJW got mad about my joke what's up!" and you'll get an open arms welcome. And Bam! You're in, and let the slow boil begin.
You have the primary core, the 5 Guys IRC chat and Gjoni equivalent, who know exactly what is going on and what the goal is. They literally take joy in playing at "psy ops" and other such bullshit, and view it as an intellectual war where anything goes.
You have the close surrounding followers, who may not know the exact plans, but are willing to go along with the fight because it's a fight they've felt always a part of.
You have the anarchist group, who will always play the troll, and just want to stir shit up and laugh at people's responses, because they use the internet to fulfil their need for malice.
And you have a much larger group of low information people, who only engage on a few particular topics, but will easily repeat the main taglines as necessary, giving the impression of a much larger, more committed group. The group who you tell them they're under attack and to circle the wagons, and they'll take you at your word.
I have a hard time considering a result where someone like Trump can be put into power on a wave of racism any kind of success. Making them use dogwhistles seems to me to have failed utterly at actually dealing with the problem.
My argument is that without a positive campaign to get people on board with the ideal world we want to create you are just hiding the problem not dealing with it. Hoping that people will just die off and the next generation will not be X anymore because you can't go on CNN anymore and call people racial slurs or because Piewdiepie gets banned from YouTube.
Honestly you will probably just manage to get all alt right messaging removing from social media right in time to find out that all the young people are on VR Chat now and woops no one was moderating that.
And otherwise be the exact kind of person they prefer within a very narrow definition of what’s acceptable, prepared to hate even yourself. If you don’t, they’re ready to ban you all the faster.
Seems more than a little harsh to say "like with you, nothing I say to him means anything, nothing I say could possibly be true, even of my own experience". I haven't categorically rejected you or your experience. But everyone has an experience. You have yours, I have mine. When you disagree with me I don't think you're rejecting me and my entire experience. Disagreements are possible, in fact they are impossible to avoid. That's something you gotta live with in a world of individuals, that your experience can be considered, evaluated and found wanting.
Have women in my guild been uncomfortable in the past? Certainly. Some have left because of it. Some enjoy the environment and don't want it to turn into what they term "a PC guild". Women are not a monolith what can ya do.
Your link there is almost exactly what Im talking about though! Look at those magnificent fuckers! They're so good at this shit they're bringing in POC to white nationalist groups, while we're over here wringing our hands about pepe memes and the like. THAT is what we should be doing. Find an issue you share common ground in! Find ways to bring people in! It is utterly mindboggling to me how we can see what's happening, see the tactics our foes use, and still return to doubling down on "the executions will continue until morale improves".
Like, I get it. Our doctrine is our doctrine for a good reason. We don't want to compromise on shit because we don't want to tell anyone "you're going under the bus today so some entitled dudes can feel more welcome". And that is more than reasonable. But it's also not a winning strategy. At a certain point I think we have to realize that the majority of folks are never going to be quite "on the level", but we still want them broadly on our side. Warts and memes and all.
I was there; I was one of the women desperately trying to convince you that "No" doesn't mean "try harder." That the bolded is how you remember it is exactly the problem Cambiata is describing: when marginalized people say, "Please stop doing violence to us," too often, the response they get is "we're not."
edit: removed old draft that also happened to be dumb
There is no compromising on whether or not someone is human and deserving of mutual dignity. Allies are utterly useless if they readily abandon you and actively campaign against the very core values you hold.
Again, no one has suggested grabbing the pitchforks over an insensitive joke. But I know I have zero interest in trying to court someone that thinks my wife being in a position of leadership is a societal failure.
Personally I'm not that interested in trying to de-radicalize existing Alt-Righters as I am in preventing more people from joining the Alt-Right. However, I also feel a significant portion of the people that the Alt-Right attracts are people who are themselves victims of discrimination, such as ableism against the neurodivergent and/or emotionally abused. The feeling I get often, and that I think at least some of these people get, is that the Left only cares about intersectionality in terms of ableism if the person isn't also a white male, at which point it's apparently assumed that the individual's whiteness and/or maleness will nullify the ableist discrimination or emotional abuse they have faced.
I personally agree with Bethryn's take here:
I'll also say that, while I imagine she doesn't agree with me as much as I do with her, I also find myself agreeing with Cambiata very often in this thread. I appreciate her take because she seems to be uniquely understanding in regards to the impacts of bullying and trying to empathize with others.