There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That’s not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo’s sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.
Yeah I'm sure they were just quoting GRRM. The problem is GRRM's ending might be bittersweet, but what they did, wasn't in the least. Dany "the emperor" was killed, Drogon "the death star" flew away, and all the Ewok's got to jump around happy (Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Brienne, Bronn, etc).
I disagree with the ewok jumping around happy on a core level.
Yeah he mentions LotR as an example of a bittersweet ending, and that is way more what we got. Jon had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath, the Starks lost their parents and two brothers and are all scarred at some level, Tyrion has to live with the fact that his mistakes killed numerous people, and everybody has lost friends and family and the kingdom is half destroyed.
I get the feeling some people think bittersweet means an almost Pyrrhic victory, but it just means an ending where the bitter isn't ignored. The Hobbits beat Saruman and none of the main characters died, but the shire was still despoiled and Frodo never recovered from the entire journey.
On the other hand, we also got extensive insight into how messed up Frodo was over a period of a few years. We see the world recovering while the hero can’t, which is tragic. The movies, problems aside, still managed to make it clear that some things can’t be remade once they’re broken.
I had the weird sense that everybody still around was living their best lives at the end of this episode. Jon might be our Frodo stand in but he’s been so mopey from the beginning that it’s hard to feel it the same way. And without a better sense of what Jon’s planning or thinking, there’s no real sense of finality to his walking into the woods.
The Small Council meeting felt a bit glib, considering.
That's why I reinterpret it as Dark Lord Bran seizing eternal power, it's a lot cooler that way.
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Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
It blows my mind that arguably one of the most important scenes in the series friggin finale of one of the biggest shows of all time had two god damn water bottles visible in it.
It blows my mind that arguably one of the most important scenes in the series friggin finale of one of the biggest shows of all time had two god damn water bottles visible in it.
There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That’s not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo’s sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.
Yeah I'm sure they were just quoting GRRM. The problem is GRRM's ending might be bittersweet, but what they did, wasn't in the least. Dany "the emperor" was killed, Drogon "the death star" flew away, and all the Ewok's got to jump around happy (Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Brienne, Bronn, etc).
I disagree with the ewok jumping around happy on a core level.
Yeah he mentions LotR as an example of a bittersweet ending, and that is way more what we got. Jon had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath, the Starks lost their parents and two brothers and are all scarred at some level, Tyrion has to live with the fact that his mistakes killed numerous people, and everybody has lost friends and family and the kingdom is half destroyed.
I get the feeling some people think bittersweet means an almost Pyrrhic victory, but it just means an ending where the bitter isn't ignored. The Hobbits beat Saruman and none of the main characters died, but the shire was still despoiled and Frodo never recovered from the entire journey.
On the other hand, we also got extensive insight into how messed up Frodo was over a period of a few years. We see the world recovering while the hero can’t, which is tragic. The movies, problems aside, still managed to make it clear that some things can’t be remade once they’re broken.
I had the weird sense that everybody still around was living their best lives at the end of this episode. Jon might be our Frodo stand in but he’s been so mopey from the beginning that it’s hard to feel it the same way. And without a better sense of what Jon’s planning or thinking, there’s no real sense of finality to his walking into the woods.
The Small Council meeting felt a bit glib, considering.
They closed out multiple character arcs on some snappy dialogue and a running joke.
Tying this back to my belief that "it's not the plot, it's the execution," Bran tells us that Tyrion will spend the rest of his life correcting mistakes and then we hear him talking about that in the small council. But the small council dialogue doesn't really bring home how much of of a monumental task that might be. But we do get a brothel joke.
Consider the opening scene: Tyrion walking among the rubble of King's Landing Imagine if Tyrion's arc had ended with another scene like that. Perhaps it could be slightly optimistic - we see a few masons rebuilding, but the city is still overwhelmingly in ruins.
Imagine a scene towards the end of Ser Brienne inspecting the regimens of Kings Landing and seeing how few soldiers survived and how many of the survivors are wounded and burned.
Imagine a newly-crowned Sansa walking among starving Northerners while listening to an advisor telling her how they don't have enough food to last until spring.
We could have had all the same basic plot beats but with some of themes (like "war ruins the common people") brought home much more effectively.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That’s not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo’s sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.
Yeah I'm sure they were just quoting GRRM. The problem is GRRM's ending might be bittersweet, but what they did, wasn't in the least. Dany "the emperor" was killed, Drogon "the death star" flew away, and all the Ewok's got to jump around happy (Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Brienne, Bronn, etc).
I disagree with the ewok jumping around happy on a core level.
Yeah he mentions LotR as an example of a bittersweet ending, and that is way more what we got. Jon had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath, the Starks lost their parents and two brothers and are all scarred at some level, Tyrion has to live with the fact that his mistakes killed numerous people, and everybody has lost friends and family and the kingdom is half destroyed.
I get the feeling some people think bittersweet means an almost Pyrrhic victory, but it just means an ending where the bitter isn't ignored. The Hobbits beat Saruman and none of the main characters died, but the shire was still despoiled and Frodo never recovered from the entire journey.
On the other hand, we also got extensive insight into how messed up Frodo was over a period of a few years. We see the world recovering while the hero can’t, which is tragic. The movies, problems aside, still managed to make it clear that some things can’t be remade once they’re broken.
I had the weird sense that everybody still around was living their best lives at the end of this episode. Jon might be our Frodo stand in but he’s been so mopey from the beginning that it’s hard to feel it the same way. And without a better sense of what Jon’s planning or thinking, there’s no real sense of finality to his walking into the woods.
Well yeah I think we have to infer more than needed, but it's still not ewoks jumping.
In the early seasons, circumstances pressed upon established characterizations and forced them to act, and story was the byproduct.
By the end, characterizations and circumstances were strictly secondary to story beats.
As someone who strongly prefers the former, it was disappointing
I don't think it became secondary so much as overly simplified to cram everything in a few hours. Almost none of what happened strictly goes against established characterizations, there just isn't time to show how characters are conflicted in their choices.
e.g. Jaime deciding to go to Cersei because his love for her is greater than his desire to be a better person makes perfect sense, it just shouldn't be a thing that happens in 2 scenes in the space of like a day or two.
Jaime is actually the one I don’t have a problem with. He’s always been more gray that redemptive to me, and that is definitely how toxic relationships work.
Meanwhile, Tyrion becomes concerned when Dany can’t have an heir, then decides that’s a selling point for Bran.
Bran tells everyone who will listen that he doesn’t care about the present and absolutely cannot be trusted to be in charge of anything, then suddenly decides to become king.
Varys is stupid and reckless and talking open treason with anyone who will listen
Arya is either an insane murderhobo or a scared little girl depending on what the scene needs.
Nobody cares that the North remains independent, but Yara and the Iron Islanders have no interest in it themselves.
Tyrion hasn’t done anything but let them lean on Dinklage’s acting of late. He’s not smart anymore, he doesn’t have a drinking problem anymore, he just sort of gives speeches when a speech would be cool.
Dany repeatedly says she doesn’t trust Tyrion with regards to his family but never actually removes him from any power to betray her to them.
Armies swing wildly from unbeatable to worthless, even against the same foes, for no apparent reason.
Starks constantly talk about the importance of strength through staying together as a family, end up as far apart from each other as physically possible within the geography of the known world
It blows my mind that arguably one of the most important scenes in the series friggin finale of one of the biggest shows of all time had two god damn water bottles visible in it.
this was actually deliberate. he planned it with 3 options, Don't You Forget About Me by Simple Minds, Never Tear Us Apart by Inxs and Everybody Wants to Rule the World by Tears for Fears. he settled for Tears for Fears because it gave the feeling of being a John Hughes movie without evoking a specific scene from an actual John Hughes movie.
There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That’s not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo’s sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.
Yeah I'm sure they were just quoting GRRM. The problem is GRRM's ending might be bittersweet, but what they did, wasn't in the least. Dany "the emperor" was killed, Drogon "the death star" flew away, and all the Ewok's got to jump around happy (Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Brienne, Bronn, etc).
I disagree with the ewok jumping around happy on a core level.
Yeah he mentions LotR as an example of a bittersweet ending, and that is way more what we got. Jon had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath, the Starks lost their parents and two brothers and are all scarred at some level, Tyrion has to live with the fact that his mistakes killed numerous people, and everybody has lost friends and family and the kingdom is half destroyed.
I get the feeling some people think bittersweet means an almost Pyrrhic victory, but it just means an ending where the bitter isn't ignored. The Hobbits beat Saruman and none of the main characters died, but the shire was still despoiled and Frodo never recovered from the entire journey.
On the other hand, we also got extensive insight into how messed up Frodo was over a period of a few years. We see the world recovering while the hero can’t, which is tragic. The movies, problems aside, still managed to make it clear that some things can’t be remade once they’re broken.
I had the weird sense that everybody still around was living their best lives at the end of this episode. Jon might be our Frodo stand in but he’s been so mopey from the beginning that it’s hard to feel it the same way. And without a better sense of what Jon’s planning or thinking, there’s no real sense of finality to his walking into the woods.
Well yeah I think we have to infer more than needed, but it's still not ewoks jumping.
It was more of a joke related to the quote, but I'd say the final episode was much closer to Star Wars than LotR. Regardless of how they butchered Dany and Greyworm's characters the last couple episodes, they were the villains in this last episode. After they are defeated, everything works out great. Jon doesn't have to rule and can be free, he's a dancing ewok. Sansa gets to be queen of a free and independent north, she's a dancing ewok. Arya gets to do something she likes and isn't focused on revenge for once, she's a dancing ewok. Bran gets to be king and have something to do finally, he's a dancing ewok. Bronn comes back and gets Highgarden along with all it's remaining gold, he's a dancing ewok. Tyrion isn't dead and gets to be hand of the king, he's dancing for sure. None of them have any scene's reflecting on the terrible crap that went down.
Unfortunately they killed any chance at bittersweet with their writing. Dany was Tarkin on the death star by the end. She was perfectly ok with killing ten's of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. It's not bitter when she dies. Nor do they bring up any of the downer issues that would have been around post Dany's death. Do they have the men to rebuild King's Landing? How about food? Do the other lords not except Bran which could lead to more wars? If the Dothraki just stayed to started pillaging, could be another thing. Or how about some funeral stuff? Tyrion talking about building a monument with all the names of the people that were lost in Dany's attack? Arya doing some tribute to the hound?
In the end, the only "taking stock of losses" they did in the last episode was mention that all the brothel's were destroyed and Brianne updating Jaime's entry.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
In the early seasons, circumstances pressed upon established characterizations and forced them to act, and story was the byproduct.
By the end, characterizations and circumstances were strictly secondary to story beats.
As someone who strongly prefers the former, it was disappointing
I don't think it became secondary so much as overly simplified to cram everything in a few hours. Almost none of what happened strictly goes against established characterizations, there just isn't time to show how characters are conflicted in their choices.
e.g. Jaime deciding to go to Cersei because his love for her is greater than his desire to be a better person makes perfect sense, it just shouldn't be a thing that happens in 2 scenes in the space of like a day or two.
Jaime is actually the one I don’t have a problem with. He’s always been more gray that redemptive to me, and that is definitely how toxic relationships work.
Meanwhile, Tyrion becomes concerned when Dany can’t have an heir, then decides that’s a selling point for Bran.
Arya is either an insane murderhobo or a scared little girl depending on what the scene needs.
Well there did happen the thing with burning Kings Landing which might have influenced the view of Tyrion, as he literally says.
And Arya is a scared little girl when anyone would be. Nobody is gonna be a cool tough badass when running with a crowd avoiding dragon fire. For the rest she is just a damaged person who ultimately clung to her identity as Arya Stark.
Tyrion hasn’t done anything but let them lean on Dinklage’s acting of late. He’s not smart anymore, he doesn’t have a drinking problem anymore, he just sort of gives speeches when a speech would be cool.
Dany repeatedly says she doesn’t trust Tyrion with regards to his family but never actually removes him from any power to betray her to them.
Like all the other characters Tyrion has only gotten the screentime to advance the plot and no more, but iirc he still drank enough and made bad but understandable decisions. Dany trusting him is because she needs him and Joran told her so too. She doesn't trust his judgement, but he only actually betrays her at the end.
Nobody cares that the North remains independent, but Yara and the Iron Islanders have no interest in it themselves.
Bran tells everyone who will listen that he doesn’t care about the present and absolutely cannot be trusted to be in charge of anything, then suddenly decides to become king.
Varys is stupid and reckless and talking open treason with anyone who will listen
Armies swing wildly from unbeatable to worthless, even against the same foes, for no apparent reason.
Starks constantly talk about the importance of strength through staying together as a family, end up as far apart from each other as physically possible within the geography of the known world
These are all fair. Especially Varys walking up to Jon going "sup dude, you wanna do some treason?". The armies is just about what looks cool and not what is realistic. They could have spent 1 minute on Yara (and the other lords) providing reasons for staying.
The Starks being apart is 75% because they are obligated and 25% Arya going to explore though. Jon is banished to the wall, Bran is King, Sansa is Queen of a different place.
It blows my mind that arguably one of the most important scenes in the series friggin finale of one of the biggest shows of all time had two god damn water bottles visible in it.
After episode 4 people were saying "As soon as Tyrion and/or Jaime walked out of the tent, they should have been confronted by Dany and Unsullied who knew Tyrion was going to try to free his brother"
And yeah, there is no reason why that couldn't have just happened. They broke Jaime out of jail so he could go die under rubble in a basement? They wasted both Jaime and Cersei's deaths. Neither of them did anything to affect the story in their last episode other than a fight with Euron that nobody cared about, they were pure spectators.
Someone needed to tell them "If you're going to have Jaime sneak out and sneak into the city and then sneak back out and into the secret harbor and then into the castle, there needs to be a better payoff than him getting smushed off camera"
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That’s not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo’s sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.
Yeah I'm sure they were just quoting GRRM. The problem is GRRM's ending might be bittersweet, but what they did, wasn't in the least. Dany "the emperor" was killed, Drogon "the death star" flew away, and all the Ewok's got to jump around happy (Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Brienne, Bronn, etc).
I disagree with the ewok jumping around happy on a core level.
Yeah he mentions LotR as an example of a bittersweet ending, and that is way more what we got. Jon had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath, the Starks lost their parents and two brothers and are all scarred at some level, Tyrion has to live with the fact that his mistakes killed numerous people, and everybody has lost friends and family and the kingdom is half destroyed.
I get the feeling some people think bittersweet means an almost Pyrrhic victory, but it just means an ending where the bitter isn't ignored. The Hobbits beat Saruman and none of the main characters died, but the shire was still despoiled and Frodo never recovered from the entire journey.
On the other hand, we also got extensive insight into how messed up Frodo was over a period of a few years. We see the world recovering while the hero can’t, which is tragic. The movies, problems aside, still managed to make it clear that some things can’t be remade once they’re broken.
I had the weird sense that everybody still around was living their best lives at the end of this episode. Jon might be our Frodo stand in but he’s been so mopey from the beginning that it’s hard to feel it the same way. And without a better sense of what Jon’s planning or thinking, there’s no real sense of finality to his walking into the woods.
Well yeah I think we have to infer more than needed, but it's still not ewoks jumping.
It was more of a joke related to the quote, but I'd say the final episode was much closer to Star Wars than LotR. Regardless of how they butchered Dany and Greyworm's characters the last couple episodes, they were the villains in this last episode. After they are defeated, everything works out great. Jon doesn't have to rule and can be free, he's a dancing ewok. Sansa gets to be queen of a free and independent north, she's a dancing ewok. Arya gets to do something she likes and isn't focused on revenge for once, she's a dancing ewok. Bran gets to be king and have something to do finally, he's a dancing ewok. Bronn comes back and gets Highgarden along with all it's remaining gold, he's a dancing ewok. Tyrion isn't dead and gets to be hand of the king, he's dancing for sure. None of them have any scene's reflecting on the terrible crap that went down.
Unfortunately they killed any chance at bittersweet with their writing. Dany was Tarkin on the death star by the end. She was perfectly ok with killing ten's of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. It's not bitter when she dies. Nor do they bring up any of the downer issues that would have been around post Dany's death. Do they have the men to rebuild King's Landing? How about food? Do the other lords not except Bran which could lead to more wars? If the Dothraki just stayed to started pillaging, could be another thing. Or how about some funeral stuff? Tyrion talking about building a monument with all the names of the people that were lost in Dany's attack? Arya doing some tribute to the hound?
In the end, the only "taking stock of losses" they did in the last episode was mention that all the brothel's were destroyed and Brianne updating Jaime's entry.
Jon still had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath to his queen, who honestly believed that she was doing the right thing. And he isn't free, he's convicted to life on the wall. Him not wanting to be king doesn't mean he might not want to marry or have some land or whatever. And they've all lost their parents and brothers, and bear the scars plus are separated from each other. Besides that, Sam, Merry and Pippin had happily ever after lives too, bittersweet doesn't mean for everybody.
They should have paid more attention to the scale of devastation that needed fixing in the small council scene, which would also have allowed Tyrion to reflect on the burden of fixing it. Honestly, while I love Bronn his role as comic relief, who is absolutely now a dancing ewok, ruins a lot of it. They bring up the rebuilding and instead of reflection it turns into a funny scene. A monument would be too much, they might consider it wrong to murder innocents but they still don't consider commoners as actual people with relevant names and worth and such.
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
You know, I would actually watch a continued series following the Small Council, if they 1) kept the cast and 2) DIDN'T keep Benioff & Weiss.
Keep it more focused and less globe-trotting. Show us Tyrion's machinations to groom multiple potential heirs for Bran. Show us the fallout with the Iron Islands. Show us a friendly correspondence between Tyrion and Sansa about their respective challenges. Show us Davos...I dunno, feeding some ducks and talking to Podrick about What It Means To Be A Man.
I don't need a grand epic story anymore, but I do like the characters and would gladly watch more of them.
Sansa seceding to become Queen of the North is not necessarily in the best interest of the peasants, but I am not really sure what the point of her doing that was supposed to be even in just purely selfish terms given her brother is on the throne.
It was political. Her doing that guaranteed she will always be the queen in the north. And the cost was minimal because with her brother as king spooky legs, she won't have to worry about trade or southern army's coming north, and it will likely reduce overall taxation. The only real threat the Iron Born have been decimated. The peasants are not likely to be negatively or positively effected. Although with much less conflict, there will likely be a generation of prosperity and relative peace. It's not like anyone is going to be able to sneak up on Westeros.
It was a properly timed power grab. It's reasonable to say she would spend the next couple of years consolidating that power. Maybe try for an heir after that.
Although I fear that an heir to Sansa would be similar to Catherine the Great and her idiot son Paul.
She'll just give the kid to a random child molester to be abused and that'll make him into a great ruler.
There are some people who read and want to believe in a world where the good guys win and the bad guys lose, and at the end they live happily ever after. That’s not the kind of fiction that I write. Tolkien was not that. The scouring of the Shire proved that. Frodo’s sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. But I understand where the other people are coming from. There are a lot of books out there. Let everyone find the kind of book that speaks to them, and speaks to what they need emotionally.
Yeah I'm sure they were just quoting GRRM. The problem is GRRM's ending might be bittersweet, but what they did, wasn't in the least. Dany "the emperor" was killed, Drogon "the death star" flew away, and all the Ewok's got to jump around happy (Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Brienne, Bronn, etc).
I disagree with the ewok jumping around happy on a core level.
Yeah he mentions LotR as an example of a bittersweet ending, and that is way more what we got. Jon had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath, the Starks lost their parents and two brothers and are all scarred at some level, Tyrion has to live with the fact that his mistakes killed numerous people, and everybody has lost friends and family and the kingdom is half destroyed.
I get the feeling some people think bittersweet means an almost Pyrrhic victory, but it just means an ending where the bitter isn't ignored. The Hobbits beat Saruman and none of the main characters died, but the shire was still despoiled and Frodo never recovered from the entire journey.
On the other hand, we also got extensive insight into how messed up Frodo was over a period of a few years. We see the world recovering while the hero can’t, which is tragic. The movies, problems aside, still managed to make it clear that some things can’t be remade once they’re broken.
I had the weird sense that everybody still around was living their best lives at the end of this episode. Jon might be our Frodo stand in but he’s been so mopey from the beginning that it’s hard to feel it the same way. And without a better sense of what Jon’s planning or thinking, there’s no real sense of finality to his walking into the woods.
Well yeah I think we have to infer more than needed, but it's still not ewoks jumping.
It was more of a joke related to the quote, but I'd say the final episode was much closer to Star Wars than LotR. Regardless of how they butchered Dany and Greyworm's characters the last couple episodes, they were the villains in this last episode. After they are defeated, everything works out great. Jon doesn't have to rule and can be free, he's a dancing ewok. Sansa gets to be queen of a free and independent north, she's a dancing ewok. Arya gets to do something she likes and isn't focused on revenge for once, she's a dancing ewok. Bran gets to be king and have something to do finally, he's a dancing ewok. Bronn comes back and gets Highgarden along with all it's remaining gold, he's a dancing ewok. Tyrion isn't dead and gets to be hand of the king, he's dancing for sure. None of them have any scene's reflecting on the terrible crap that went down.
Unfortunately they killed any chance at bittersweet with their writing. Dany was Tarkin on the death star by the end. She was perfectly ok with killing ten's of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. It's not bitter when she dies. Nor do they bring up any of the downer issues that would have been around post Dany's death. Do they have the men to rebuild King's Landing? How about food? Do the other lords not except Bran which could lead to more wars? If the Dothraki just stayed to started pillaging, could be another thing. Or how about some funeral stuff? Tyrion talking about building a monument with all the names of the people that were lost in Dany's attack? Arya doing some tribute to the hound?
In the end, the only "taking stock of losses" they did in the last episode was mention that all the brothel's were destroyed and Brianne updating Jaime's entry.
Jon still had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath to his queen, who honestly believed that she was doing the right thing. And he isn't free, he's convicted to life on the wall. Him not wanting to be king doesn't mean he might not want to marry or have some land or whatever. And they've all lost their parents and brothers, and bear the scars plus are separated from each other. Besides that, Sam, Merry and Pippin had happily ever after lives too, bittersweet doesn't mean for everybody.
They should have paid more attention to the scale of devastation that needed fixing in the small council scene, which would also have allowed Tyrion to reflect on the burden of fixing it. Honestly, while I love Bronn his role as comic relief, who is absolutely now a dancing ewok, ruins a lot of it. They bring up the rebuilding and instead of reflection it turns into a funny scene. A monument would be too much, they might consider it wrong to murder innocents but they still don't consider commoners as actual people with relevant names and worth and such.
yeah I guess it really depends on what happened with Jon, of which we know nothing... We know he really wanted to join the nights watch, he wanted to take back Winterfell, that he wanted to stop the night king, and that he didn't want to rule. Am I missing any of his motivations? Who knows, trekking around the far north might be the bees knees for him. We're given some silly excuse for why the nights watch might still exist but if they don't really have any members, they might just join the wildlings.
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
They keep warm with all the screwing.
Which, I assume, is how Canada worked before some prude started pushing hockey as an alternative.
You know, I would actually watch a continued series following the Small Council, if they 1) kept the cast and 2) DIDN'T keep Benioff & Weiss.
Brought to you by Aaron Sorkin
Long panning shots of characters walking and talking through the Council halls
Once an episode, Sam gives a speech about the importance of respecting the needs of the common folk
Tyrion frequently rattles off weirdly precise statistics about Westeros from memory
Every so often, a character reveals that they have a deep abiding passion for some hobby, which is used as a plot point in one episode, and is never brought up again
In the second to last season, Ser Davos has a heart attack
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
You know, I would actually watch a continued series following the Small Council, if they 1) kept the cast and 2) DIDN'T keep Benioff & Weiss.
Brought to you by Aaron Sorkin
Long panning shots of characters walking and talking through the Council halls
Once an episode, Sam gives a speech about the importance of respecting the needs of the common folk
Tyrion frequently rattles off weirdly precise statistics about Westeros from memory
Every so often, a character reveals that they have a deep abiding passion for some hobby, which is used as a plot point in one episode, and is never brought up again
In the second to last season, Ser Davos has a heart attack
No, Armando Iannucci. Bronn spends a good percentage of each episode coming up with inventive new streams of cursing at some random squire.
I'm not clear on why the wildlings returned to the wilds. The wilds suck. It's cold and the ground is frozen hard and there are polar bears on the north side of the wall.
"That's so unrealistic," says man who lives on a planet in which human beings live in Northern Finland.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
+4
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
You know, I would actually watch a continued series following the Small Council, if they 1) kept the cast and 2) DIDN'T keep Benioff & Weiss.
Brought to you by Aaron Sorkin
Long panning shots of characters walking and talking through the Council halls
Once an episode, Sam gives a speech about the importance of respecting the needs of the common folk
Tyrion frequently rattles off weirdly precise statistics about Westeros from memory
Every so often, a character reveals that they have a deep abiding passion for some hobby, which is used as a plot point in one episode, and is never brought up again
In the second to last season, Ser Davos has a heart attack
I mean I'd watch it.
+11
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
You know, I would actually watch a continued series following the Small Council, if they 1) kept the cast and 2) DIDN'T keep Benioff & Weiss.
Brought to you by Aaron Sorkin
Long panning shots of characters walking and talking through the Council halls
Once an episode, Sam gives a speech about the importance of respecting the needs of the common folk
Tyrion frequently rattles off weirdly precise statistics about Westeros from memory
Every so often, a character reveals that they have a deep abiding passion for some hobby, which is used as a plot point in one episode, and is never brought up again
In the second to last season, Ser Davos has a heart attack
No, Armando Iannucci. Bronn spends a good percentage of each episode coming up with inventive new streams of cursing at some random squire.
Oohh...Westeros Death of Stalin style, yes please. With Tyrion as Krushchev.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
Jon still had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath to his queen, who honestly believed that she was doing the right thing.
In the 2nd to last episode they basically played it as her going mad because it was impossible to reconcile those actions with her character up to that point. They did so specifically to get them to where they needed to be story wise. In the finale they tried to have her justify it which was a 180 from the last episode, which was a 180 from her character, specifically to get them where they needed to be to end the story without having to lay any real groundwork, because that would have actually required more episodes.
You know, I would actually watch a continued series following the Small Council, if they 1) kept the cast and 2) DIDN'T keep Benioff & Weiss.
Brought to you by Aaron Sorkin
Long panning shots of characters walking and talking through the Council halls
Once an episode, Sam gives a speech about the importance of respecting the needs of the common folk
Tyrion frequently rattles off weirdly precise statistics about Westeros from memory
Every so often, a character reveals that they have a deep abiding passion for some hobby, which is used as a plot point in one episode, and is never brought up again
In the second to last season, Ser Davos has a heart attack
I mean I'd watch it.
Shame they wouldn't be able to John Goodman to play the good White Walker.
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That's why I reinterpret it as Dark Lord Bran seizing eternal power, it's a lot cooler that way.
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Game of Thirst! Brawndo has what peasants crave!
They closed out multiple character arcs on some snappy dialogue and a running joke.
Tying this back to my belief that "it's not the plot, it's the execution," Bran tells us that Tyrion will spend the rest of his life correcting mistakes and then we hear him talking about that in the small council. But the small council dialogue doesn't really bring home how much of of a monumental task that might be. But we do get a brothel joke.
Consider the opening scene: Tyrion walking among the rubble of King's Landing Imagine if Tyrion's arc had ended with another scene like that. Perhaps it could be slightly optimistic - we see a few masons rebuilding, but the city is still overwhelmingly in ruins.
Imagine a scene towards the end of Ser Brienne inspecting the regimens of Kings Landing and seeing how few soldiers survived and how many of the survivors are wounded and burned.
Imagine a newly-crowned Sansa walking among starving Northerners while listening to an advisor telling her how they don't have enough food to last until spring.
We could have had all the same basic plot beats but with some of themes (like "war ruins the common people") brought home much more effectively.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Well yeah I think we have to infer more than needed, but it's still not ewoks jumping.
On one hand, I love this.
On the other hand, as a huge fan of Real Genius, I am totally that guy:
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Jaime is actually the one I don’t have a problem with. He’s always been more gray that redemptive to me, and that is definitely how toxic relationships work.
Meanwhile, Tyrion becomes concerned when Dany can’t have an heir, then decides that’s a selling point for Bran.
Bran tells everyone who will listen that he doesn’t care about the present and absolutely cannot be trusted to be in charge of anything, then suddenly decides to become king.
Varys is stupid and reckless and talking open treason with anyone who will listen
Arya is either an insane murderhobo or a scared little girl depending on what the scene needs.
Nobody cares that the North remains independent, but Yara and the Iron Islanders have no interest in it themselves.
Tyrion hasn’t done anything but let them lean on Dinklage’s acting of late. He’s not smart anymore, he doesn’t have a drinking problem anymore, he just sort of gives speeches when a speech would be cool.
Dany repeatedly says she doesn’t trust Tyrion with regards to his family but never actually removes him from any power to betray her to them.
Armies swing wildly from unbeatable to worthless, even against the same foes, for no apparent reason.
Starks constantly talk about the importance of strength through staying together as a family, end up as far apart from each other as physically possible within the geography of the known world
Davos smuggled them in from the future.
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this was actually deliberate. he planned it with 3 options, Don't You Forget About Me by Simple Minds, Never Tear Us Apart by Inxs and Everybody Wants to Rule the World by Tears for Fears. he settled for Tears for Fears because it gave the feeling of being a John Hughes movie without evoking a specific scene from an actual John Hughes movie.
It was more of a joke related to the quote, but I'd say the final episode was much closer to Star Wars than LotR. Regardless of how they butchered Dany and Greyworm's characters the last couple episodes, they were the villains in this last episode. After they are defeated, everything works out great. Jon doesn't have to rule and can be free, he's a dancing ewok. Sansa gets to be queen of a free and independent north, she's a dancing ewok. Arya gets to do something she likes and isn't focused on revenge for once, she's a dancing ewok. Bran gets to be king and have something to do finally, he's a dancing ewok. Bronn comes back and gets Highgarden along with all it's remaining gold, he's a dancing ewok. Tyrion isn't dead and gets to be hand of the king, he's dancing for sure. None of them have any scene's reflecting on the terrible crap that went down.
Unfortunately they killed any chance at bittersweet with their writing. Dany was Tarkin on the death star by the end. She was perfectly ok with killing ten's of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. It's not bitter when she dies. Nor do they bring up any of the downer issues that would have been around post Dany's death. Do they have the men to rebuild King's Landing? How about food? Do the other lords not except Bran which could lead to more wars? If the Dothraki just stayed to started pillaging, could be another thing. Or how about some funeral stuff? Tyrion talking about building a monument with all the names of the people that were lost in Dany's attack? Arya doing some tribute to the hound?
In the end, the only "taking stock of losses" they did in the last episode was mention that all the brothel's were destroyed and Brianne updating Jaime's entry.
Well there did happen the thing with burning Kings Landing which might have influenced the view of Tyrion, as he literally says.
And Arya is a scared little girl when anyone would be. Nobody is gonna be a cool tough badass when running with a crowd avoiding dragon fire. For the rest she is just a damaged person who ultimately clung to her identity as Arya Stark.
Like all the other characters Tyrion has only gotten the screentime to advance the plot and no more, but iirc he still drank enough and made bad but understandable decisions. Dany trusting him is because she needs him and Joran told her so too. She doesn't trust his judgement, but he only actually betrays her at the end.
These are all fair. Especially Varys walking up to Jon going "sup dude, you wanna do some treason?". The armies is just about what looks cool and not what is realistic. They could have spent 1 minute on Yara (and the other lords) providing reasons for staying.
The Starks being apart is 75% because they are obligated and 25% Arya going to explore though. Jon is banished to the wall, Bran is King, Sansa is Queen of a different place.
But it was water. Like out the toilet.
And yeah, there is no reason why that couldn't have just happened. They broke Jaime out of jail so he could go die under rubble in a basement? They wasted both Jaime and Cersei's deaths. Neither of them did anything to affect the story in their last episode other than a fight with Euron that nobody cared about, they were pure spectators.
Someone needed to tell them "If you're going to have Jaime sneak out and sneak into the city and then sneak back out and into the secret harbor and then into the castle, there needs to be a better payoff than him getting smushed off camera"
Jon still had to kill the woman he loved and break his oath to his queen, who honestly believed that she was doing the right thing. And he isn't free, he's convicted to life on the wall. Him not wanting to be king doesn't mean he might not want to marry or have some land or whatever. And they've all lost their parents and brothers, and bear the scars plus are separated from each other. Besides that, Sam, Merry and Pippin had happily ever after lives too, bittersweet doesn't mean for everybody.
They should have paid more attention to the scale of devastation that needed fixing in the small council scene, which would also have allowed Tyrion to reflect on the burden of fixing it. Honestly, while I love Bronn his role as comic relief, who is absolutely now a dancing ewok, ruins a lot of it. They bring up the rebuilding and instead of reflection it turns into a funny scene. A monument would be too much, they might consider it wrong to murder innocents but they still don't consider commoners as actual people with relevant names and worth and such.
Keep it more focused and less globe-trotting. Show us Tyrion's machinations to groom multiple potential heirs for Bran. Show us the fallout with the Iron Islands. Show us a friendly correspondence between Tyrion and Sansa about their respective challenges. Show us Davos...I dunno, feeding some ducks and talking to Podrick about What It Means To Be A Man.
I don't need a grand epic story anymore, but I do like the characters and would gladly watch more of them.
She'll just give the kid to a random child molester to be abused and that'll make him into a great ruler.
yeah I guess it really depends on what happened with Jon, of which we know nothing...
He rode North of the Wall with the wildlings.
Is there an echo in here?
Wildlings are not part of the Night's Watch.
Can't be Real Genius, no popcorn.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Loot train?
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Since the seasons thing was supposed to be magical in nature
also, it's free real estate
The First Men lived way the fuck past the wall quite happily. Maps give the impression it's overall more of a taiga biome than tundra, but humans have settled the latter as well.
They keep warm with all the screwing.
Which, I assume, is how Canada worked before some prude started pushing hockey as an alternative.
Brought to you by Aaron Sorkin
Long panning shots of characters walking and talking through the Council halls
Once an episode, Sam gives a speech about the importance of respecting the needs of the common folk
Tyrion frequently rattles off weirdly precise statistics about Westeros from memory
Every so often, a character reveals that they have a deep abiding passion for some hobby, which is used as a plot point in one episode, and is never brought up again
In the second to last season, Ser Davos has a heart attack
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
No, Armando Iannucci. Bronn spends a good percentage of each episode coming up with inventive new streams of cursing at some random squire.
"That's so unrealistic," says man who lives on a planet in which human beings live in Northern Finland.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I mean I'd watch it.
Oohh...Westeros Death of Stalin style, yes please. With Tyrion as Krushchev.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
In the 2nd to last episode they basically played it as her going mad because it was impossible to reconcile those actions with her character up to that point. They did so specifically to get them to where they needed to be story wise. In the finale they tried to have her justify it which was a 180 from the last episode, which was a 180 from her character, specifically to get them where they needed to be to end the story without having to lay any real groundwork, because that would have actually required more episodes.
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
Shame they wouldn't be able to John Goodman to play the good White Walker.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget