Man first I spend a few hours reading about detailed descriptions of Israelis shooting and killing Palestinian children, now I get home and read about Waterboarding. My mind is not in a happy place. Not to mention I read about how Palestinians will be tortured in prisons much of yesterday
But yeah, obviously torture is immoral, it\s quite blatantly inefficient and really the only reason it's still popular is because it appeals to the most basic deprived human instincts of wanting to cause suffering to "the enemy".
I'm pretty sure that the shooting was unintentional, though I haven't read the news, both because I don't think Israeli soldiers would and the fact that at times there are enough reports of errant fire (usually mortar) from the Israeli military that I'm not sure if it's just that there are enough civilians to make all the misses worthy of reporting or if their aim is so bad that the soldiers wouldn't of hit the children if they had really been aiming at them.
I don't know whether I should be laughing or crying.
Man first I spend a few hours reading about detailed descriptions of Israelis shooting and killing Palestinian children, now I get home and read about Waterboarding. My mind is not in a happy place. Not to mention I read about how Palestinians will be tortured in prisons much of yesterday
But yeah, obviously torture is immoral, it\s quite blatantly inefficient and really the only reason it's still popular is because it appeals to the most basic deprived human instincts of wanting to cause suffering to "the enemy".
I'm pretty sure that the shooting was unintentional, though I haven't read the news, both because I don't think Israeli soldiers would and the fact that at times there are enough reports of errant fire (usually mortar) from the Israeli military that I'm not sure if it's just that there are enough civilians to make all the misses worthy of reporting or if their aim is so bad that the soldiers wouldn't of hit the children if they had really been aiming at them.
Only a glance at the record shows that this is simply false. Do you want me to quote?
fuck it I will a bit anyway because it's fucking horrible.
Soldiers would enter in jeeps in areas where friction was common. Their objective was to provoke Palestinians to throw stones and petrol bombs. When Palestinians approached, soldiers who had taken up position at pre planned positions would shoot at them. The stated goal of this procedure was to move the demonstrators further away. In fact, however, the soldier said: "It is kind of a sport, to 'remove' as many petrol-bomb throwers as possible. It is an obsessive search. It's called 'strive to make contact'
I had seen children shot in other conflicts I have covered, death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with their infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serp snipers put children in their sight and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo - but I had never watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport
Iman was not the only one. Modammed Aaraj was eating a sandwich in front of his house ... when a soldier shot him to death at fairly close range. He was six at the time of death.. Kristed Saada was in her parents car, on the way home from a family visit, when soldiers sprrayed the car with bullets. She was 12 at the time of death. The brothers Jamil and Ahmed Abu Aziz were riding their bicycles in full daylight, on their way to buy sweet, when they sustained a direct hit from a shell fired by an ISraeli tank crew. Jamil was 13, Ahmed 6 at the time of their deaths.
On 5 October 2004 an Israeli captain, "confirming the killing" of Iman Alhamas, a thirteen year old Palestinian schoolgirl, fired two bullets at point blank range into her hear while she was lying on the ground already injured, and then, after starting to walk away, turned back to riddle her body with at least twenty more bullets.
Many children were apparantly killed by poorly targeted lethal fire; others... appear to have been deliberately targeted. In many of the locations where children were killed there was no imminent danger to life nor reasonable expectation of further danger...Children throwing stones are not military objectives for lethal attack by Israeli forces. The killing and wounding of children [have] revealed a reckless disregard for life by Israeli soldiers";"In every case investigated by Amnesty International the killing of achild appeared to have been an unlawful killing... According to official Israeli spokespersons, Palestinian gunmen hide behind children ... Investigations by Amnesty International have failed to find any specific instance where Palestinian gunmen have used a demonstration as a protective shield and shot shot at Israelis from among or behind the demonstrators" [And one should note, up untill a few years ago it was acceptable procedure for Israeli soldiers to hide behind palestinian civilians, it was called 'the living shields procedure']
"No judical investigation into any of the killings of Palestinian children by the IDF in the Occupied Territories is known to have been carried out"
Ofcourse I could go on and cite more specific instances, or maybe talk about how many children get tortured every year in Israeli prisons, how just in general how shitty their lives are? Like how they'll get beaten, just a little bit to show who is boss, pretty regularily at checkpoints? Or maybe how the people who commit these horrible fucking crimes usually go almost entirely unpunished, and on the offchance that they do get punished it will be something rediculously weak, some a guy got sentanced for shooting a nine year old boy and go less than a year in prison. For shooting an entirely innocent boy under non threatening cirkumstances just because you could, you get less than a year. Fuck.
Now, less derailing.
...
Boo torture sucks!
fjafjan on
Yepp, THE Fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
- "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
Man first I spend a few hours reading about detailed descriptions of Israelis shooting and killing Palestinian children, now I get home and read about Waterboarding. My mind is not in a happy place. Not to mention I read about how Palestinians will be tortured in prisons much of yesterday
But yeah, obviously torture is immoral, it\s quite blatantly inefficient and really the only reason it's still popular is because it appeals to the most basic deprived human instincts of wanting to cause suffering to "the enemy".
I'm pretty sure that the shooting was unintentional, though I haven't read the news, both because I don't think Israeli soldiers would and the fact that at times there are enough reports of errant fire (usually mortar) from the Israeli military that I'm not sure if it's just that there are enough civilians to make all the misses worthy of reporting or if their aim is so bad that the soldiers wouldn't of hit the children if they had really been aiming at them.
Only a glance at the record shows that this is simply false. Do you want me to quote?
fuck it I will a bit anyway because it's fucking horrible.
Soldiers would enter in jeeps in areas where friction was common. Their objective was to provoke Palestinians to throw stones and petrol bombs. When Palestinians approached, soldiers who had taken up position at pre planned positions would shoot at them. The stated goal of this procedure was to move the demonstrators further away. In fact, however, the soldier said: "It is kind of a sport, to 'remove' as many petrol-bomb throwers as possible. It is an obsessive search. It's called 'strive to make contact'
I had seen children shot in other conflicts I have covered, death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with their infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serp snipers put children in their sight and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo - but I had never watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport
Iman was not the only one. Modammed Aaraj was eating a sandwich in front of his house ... when a soldier shot him to death at fairly close range. He was six at the time of death.. Kristed Saada was in her parents car, on the way home from a family visit, when soldiers sprrayed the car with bullets. She was 12 at the time of death. The brothers Jamil and Ahmed Abu Aziz were riding their bicycles in full daylight, on their way to buy sweet, when they sustained a direct hit from a shell fired by an ISraeli tank crew. Jamil was 13, Ahmed 6 at the time of their deaths.
On 5 October 2004 an Israeli captain, "confirming the killing" of Iman Alhamas, a thirteen year old Palestinian schoolgirl, fired two bullets at point blank range into her hear while she was lying on the ground already injured, and then, after starting to walk away, turned back to riddle her body with at least twenty more bullets.
Many children were apparantly killed by poorly targeted lethal fire; others... appear to have been deliberately targeted. In many of the locations where children were killed there was no imminent danger to life nor reasonable expectation of further danger...Children throwing stones are not military objectives for lethal attack by Israeli forces. The killing and wounding of children [have] revealed a reckless disregard for life by Israeli soldiers";"In every case investigated by Amnesty International the killing of achild appeared to have been an unlawful killing... According to official Israeli spokespersons, Palestinian gunmen hide behind children ... Investigations by Amnesty International have failed to find any specific instance where Palestinian gunmen have used a demonstration as a protective shield and shot shot at Israelis from among or behind the demonstrators" [And one should note, up untill a few years ago it was acceptable procedure for Israeli soldiers to hide behind palestinian civilians, it was called 'the living shields procedure']
"No judical investigation into any of the killings of Palestinian children by the IDF in the Occupied Territories is known to have been carried out"
Ofcourse I could go on and cite more specific instances, or maybe talk about how many children get tortured every year in Israeli prisons, how just in general how shitty their lives are? Like how they'll get beaten, just a little bit to show who is boss, pretty regularily at checkpoints? Or maybe how the people who commit these horrible fucking crimes usually go almost entirely unpunished, and on the offchance that they do get punished it will be something rediculously weak, some a guy got sentanced for shooting a nine year old boy and go less than a year in prison. For shooting an entirely innocent boy under non threatening cirkumstances just because you could, you get less than a year. Fuck.
Now, less derailing.
...
Boo torture sucks!
In their defense, the stones aren't really thrown. They're shot from slings, weapons feared for their deadliness before the gun. But besides that, I admit that there is a lot of bad behavior on both sides.
Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until 1967). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, and the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were filmed for later viewing and study.[14]
Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 days straight.[15]
LSD was eventually dismissed by MKULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its effects.[2] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.
Another technique investigated was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, temazepam (used under code name MKSEARCH), mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.[17]
You may have heard about MKULTRA. Basically, during the Cold War, the CIA would kidnap people, often Americans, drug them up, and generally fuck with them, trying to develop mind control techniques and generally evil shit.
Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until 1967). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, and the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were filmed for later viewing and study.[14]
Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 days straight.[15]
LSD was eventually dismissed by MKULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its effects.[2] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.
Another technique investigated was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, temazepam (used under code name MKSEARCH), mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.[17]
You may have heard about MKULTRA. Basically, during the Cold War, the CIA would kidnap people, often Americans, drug them up, and generally fuck with them, trying to develop mind control techniques and generally evil shit.
Nobody had shit to say about this?
Really?
Nothing I hear about the cold war really surprises me, and I'm actually at the point where I get pissed when people use examples from the cold war to try and talk about actions we should take in the here and now. Everyone, without fail, on both sides, did terrible things during the Cold War.
Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until 1967). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, and the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were filmed for later viewing and study.[14]
Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 days straight.[15]
LSD was eventually dismissed by MKULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its effects.[2] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.
Another technique investigated was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, temazepam (used under code name MKSEARCH), mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.[17]
You may have heard about MKULTRA. Basically, during the Cold War, the CIA would kidnap people, often Americans, drug them up, and generally fuck with them, trying to develop mind control techniques and generally evil shit.
Nobody had shit to say about this?
Really?
Nothing I hear about the cold war really surprises me, and I'm actually at the point where I get pissed when people use examples from the cold war to try and talk about actions we should take in the here and now. Everyone, without fail, on both sides, did terrible things during the Cold War.
Nothing I hear about the cold war really surprises me, and I'm actually at the point where I get pissed when people use examples from the cold war to try and talk about actions we should take in the here and now. Everyone, without fail, on both sides, did terrible things during the Cold War.
Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until 1967). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, and the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were filmed for later viewing and study.[14]
Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 days straight.[15]
LSD was eventually dismissed by MKULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its effects.[2] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.
Another technique investigated was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, temazepam (used under code name MKSEARCH), mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.[17]
You may have heard about MKULTRA. Basically, during the Cold War, the CIA would kidnap people, often Americans, drug them up, and generally fuck with them, trying to develop mind control techniques and generally evil shit.
Nobody had shit to say about this?
Really?
Nothing I hear about the cold war really surprises me, and I'm actually at the point where I get pissed when people use examples from the cold war to try and talk about actions we should take in the here and now. Everyone, without fail, on both sides, did terrible things during the Cold War.
minus buzz aldrin, buzz aldrin is still the man
x10 after decking that idiot 'the moon landing was fake' guy right in the fucking mouth.
Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until 1967). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, and the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were filmed for later viewing and study.[14]
Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 days straight.[15]
LSD was eventually dismissed by MKULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its effects.[2] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.
Another technique investigated was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, temazepam (used under code name MKSEARCH), mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.[17]
You may have heard about MKULTRA. Basically, during the Cold War, the CIA would kidnap people, often Americans, drug them up, and generally fuck with them, trying to develop mind control techniques and generally evil shit.
Nobody had shit to say about this?
Really?
Nothing I hear about the cold war really surprises me, and I'm actually at the point where I get pissed when people use examples from the cold war to try and talk about actions we should take in the here and now. Everyone, without fail, on both sides, did terrible things during the Cold War.
minus buzz aldrin, buzz aldrin is still the man
x10 after decking that idiot 'the moon landing was fake' guy right in the fucking mouth.
Hahaha that is the best video on the internet. It goes "bullshit bullshit RIGHTEOUS JUSTICE!"
hmmm so how about dershowitz's assertion that torture happens and is gonna continue to happen and the best we can hope for is a set of guidelines and accountability
is that pessimistic? or can we actually have effective national security without torture (and by this i think he means the standard black ops interrogation and not the "everyone at abu ghraib/guantanamo bay gets a session after dinner" use of torture)
Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until 1967). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, and the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were filmed for later viewing and study.[14]
Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 days straight.[15]
LSD was eventually dismissed by MKULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its effects.[2] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.
Another technique investigated was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, temazepam (used under code name MKSEARCH), mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.[17]
You may have heard about MKULTRA. Basically, during the Cold War, the CIA would kidnap people, often Americans, drug them up, and generally fuck with them, trying to develop mind control techniques and generally evil shit.
Nobody had shit to say about this?
Really?
Nothing I hear about the cold war really surprises me, and I'm actually at the point where I get pissed when people use examples from the cold war to try and talk about actions we should take in the here and now. Everyone, without fail, on both sides, did terrible things during the Cold War.
minus buzz aldrin, buzz aldrin is still the man
x10 after decking that idiot 'the moon landing was fake' guy right in the fucking mouth.
Just looked that video up for the first time, that is all kinds of awesome.
Back on topic, why the hell is this thing even debated (I mean outside this forum everyone seems sane here). It is torture. How the hell people can get away with this "oh it's not torture unless they cut your balls off" crap is beyond me.
Efforts to "recruit" subjects were often illegal, even discounting the fact that drugs were being administered (though actual use of LSD, for example, was legal in the United States until 1967). In Operation Midnight Climax, the CIA set up several brothels to obtain a selection of men who would be too embarrassed to talk about the events. The men were dosed with LSD, and the brothels were equipped with one-way mirrors and the "sessions" were filmed for later viewing and study.[14]
Some subjects' participation was consensual, and in many of these cases, the subjects appeared to be singled out for even more extreme experiments. In one case, volunteers were given LSD for 77 days straight.[15]
LSD was eventually dismissed by MKULTRA's researchers as too unpredictable in its effects.[2] Although useful information was sometimes obtained through questioning subjects on LSD, not uncommonly the most marked effect would be the subject's absolute and utter certainty that they were able to withstand any form of interrogation attempt, even physical torture.
Another technique investigated was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. Other experiments involved heroin, morphine, temazepam (used under code name MKSEARCH), mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.[17]
You may have heard about MKULTRA. Basically, during the Cold War, the CIA would kidnap people, often Americans, drug them up, and generally fuck with them, trying to develop mind control techniques and generally evil shit.
Nobody had shit to say about this?
Really?
Nothing I hear about the cold war really surprises me, and I'm actually at the point where I get pissed when people use examples from the cold war to try and talk about actions we should take in the here and now. Everyone, without fail, on both sides, did terrible things during the Cold War.
minus buzz aldrin, buzz aldrin is still the man
x10 after decking that idiot 'the moon landing was fake' guy right in the fucking mouth.
Just looked that video up for the first time, that is all kinds of awesome.
Back on topic, why the hell is this thing even debated (I mean outside this forum everyone seems sane here). It is torture. How the hell people can get away with this "oh it's not torture unless they cut your balls off" crap is beyond me.
Because that's why it's favored. It doesn't seem like torture. Cutting a guy's thumb off - yeah that seems like torture. That's how most of us popularly imagine torture - non-lethal prolonged pain. Drowning someone and then not doing it - well, that doesn't quite seem to fit the bill.
And I suspect in many respects, it's not just that - it's that because it doesn't quite seem to fit the bill it's not nearly as hard to get interrogators to do it without psychological damage. As far as their concerned you're really just scaring someone - how bad can it be? These bad people, after all.
Bad people? Really sucks if you've been taken mistakenly, and it hasn't been confirmed on account of, you know, no proper trial. I'm not sure I understand how waterboarding cannot be defined as torture. Simulated drowning doesn't sound like just another form of persuasion. It sounds like fucking torture.
Torture is an incredibly malleable and loaded word, which if you push the envelope you can squeeze a lot of things under. Similarly though, most people have set ideas about what torture is - blowtorching your toes for example, almost everyone would say is a torture practice.
Somewhere along there is a gigantic grey area for psychological torture - sleep deprivation, telling someone they'll be executed at the start of a week, giving them a reprieve on Friday then telling them on Monday it's back on (USSR did this to a spy), playing loud noises etc.
A lot of these practices can be classed as torture - yet you can equally get a lot of people to agree that in certain circumstances they are legitimate techniques, especially perceived "softer" ideas such as sleep deprivation (which still don't really yield good info - a US police department got 4 guys to falsely confess to a mass murder through it).
Somewhere between those two, you arrive at something like waterboarding. No permanent injury is inflicted, and to the external observer/public it doesn't quite seem like "pain" as we commonly associate it. Maybe it's akin to firing an unloaded gun at someone - and that starts to rest it in that grey area between physical and psychological torture, and we know at least some of those psychological techniques can be argued to have their utility under special circumstance.
I don't support waterboarding, but I can understand why people might.
hmmm so how about dershowitz's assertion that torture happens and is gonna continue to happen and the best we can hope for is a set of guidelines and accountability
is that pessimistic? or can we actually have effective national security without torture (and by this i think he means the standard black ops interrogation and not the "everyone at abu ghraib/guantanamo bay gets a session after dinner" use of torture)
Dershowitz's is a massively retarded fucking hack. Seriously fuck him and whatever he thinks, he is just saying that shit to justify the shit Israel is doing.
fjafjan on
Yepp, THE Fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
- "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
hmmm so how about dershowitz's assertion that torture happens and is gonna continue to happen and the best we can hope for is a set of guidelines and accountability
is that pessimistic? or can we actually have effective national security without torture (and by this i think he means the standard black ops interrogation and not the "everyone at abu ghraib/guantanamo bay gets a session after dinner" use of torture)
Dershowitz's is a massively retarded fucking hack. Seriously fuck him and whatever he thinks, he is just saying that shit to justify the shit Israel is doing.
Yeah, Dershowitz is an asshole bastard who somehow thinks that being against Israel's policies is the same thing as being anti-semitic.
Ah, here I found that quote from the retarded senator.
Gwen Ifill (PBS Newshour host): "Do you think that waterboarding, as I described it, constitutes torture?"
Senator Kit Bond: "There are different ways of doing it. It's like swimming, freestyle, backstroke. The waterboarding could be used almost to define some of the techniques that our trainees are put through, but that's beside the point."
Gwen Ifill (PBS Newshour host): "Do you think that waterboarding, as I described it, constitutes torture?"
Senator Kit Bond: "There are different ways of doing it..."
I was like, "There is no way he's going to say what I think he's going to say..."
"It's like swimming, freestyle, backstroke. The waterboarding could be used almost to define some of the techniques that our trainees are put through, but that's beside the point."
Ahh he said it!
I'm not sure whether to be like or or :x
EDIT: Yeah, it's torture. I am frankly staggered that this even warrants discussion.
Gwen Ifill (PBS Newshour host): "Do you think that waterboarding, as I described it, constitutes torture?"
Senator Kit Bond: "There are different ways of doing it..."
I was like, "There is no way he's going to say what I think he's going to say..."
"It's like swimming, freestyle, backstroke. The waterboarding could be used almost to define some of the techniques that our trainees are put through, but that's beside the point."
Ahh he said it!
I'm not sure whether to be like or or :x
EDIT: Yeah, it's torture. I am frankly staggered that this even warrants discussion.
Because programs like 24 ram into the public consciousness the extreme hypothetical situation in which torture must be acceptable if it means we get the super secret password from the horrible nasty terrorist for big bad bomb just as the oh noes timer nears zero.
Plutocracy on
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
blowtorching your toes for example, almost everyone would say is a torture practice..
See you lack vision, if they call it "heat-assisted foot massage" I am sure people will be fine with it. I really want to believe that most people would be against it if the actually know what the hell it entails, but than I remember how easy it is to convince people to forget human rights once you label someone a terrorist, murderer, etc.
The power of a name. If they were to refer to this as Chinese Water Torture as opposed to waterboarding (I know, slightly different techniques) you'd likely get a different response because perceptions would shift. Legally, though, there's no leg to stand on. It's illegal, has been illegal for decades/centuries, and applies to all persons on US soil under the 14th amendment. Embassies and military bases are US soil, so yeah. If only SCOTUS wouldn't refuse people stripped of their habeus corpus rights the judicial review which they are entitled under habeus corpus.
Well after a water boarding debate I was able to convince a friend to simulate a similar scenario (yeah, dumb) and even in an exceptionally light and totally controlled form it fucking sucks. It's definitely torture.
Posts
I don't know whether I should be laughing or crying.
Only a glance at the record shows that this is simply false. Do you want me to quote?
fuck it I will a bit anyway because it's fucking horrible.
And some amnesty
Ofcourse I could go on and cite more specific instances, or maybe talk about how many children get tortured every year in Israeli prisons, how just in general how shitty their lives are? Like how they'll get beaten, just a little bit to show who is boss, pretty regularily at checkpoints? Or maybe how the people who commit these horrible fucking crimes usually go almost entirely unpunished, and on the offchance that they do get punished it will be something rediculously weak, some a guy got sentanced for shooting a nine year old boy and go less than a year in prison. For shooting an entirely innocent boy under non threatening cirkumstances just because you could, you get less than a year. Fuck.
...
Boo torture sucks!
- "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
In their defense, the stones aren't really thrown. They're shot from slings, weapons feared for their deadliness before the gun. But besides that, I admit that there is a lot of bad behavior on both sides.
Nobody had shit to say about this?
Really?
minus buzz aldrin, buzz aldrin is still the man
Whatyouhaven'tseenCharlieWilson'sWarZOMGWTF???!???!?!?
x10 after decking that idiot 'the moon landing was fake' guy right in the fucking mouth.
Hahaha that is the best video on the internet. It goes "bullshit bullshit RIGHTEOUS JUSTICE!"
hmmm so how about dershowitz's assertion that torture happens and is gonna continue to happen and the best we can hope for is a set of guidelines and accountability
is that pessimistic? or can we actually have effective national security without torture (and by this i think he means the standard black ops interrogation and not the "everyone at abu ghraib/guantanamo bay gets a session after dinner" use of torture)
Just looked that video up for the first time, that is all kinds of awesome.
Back on topic, why the hell is this thing even debated (I mean outside this forum everyone seems sane here). It is torture. How the hell people can get away with this "oh it's not torture unless they cut your balls off" crap is beyond me.
Because that's why it's favored. It doesn't seem like torture. Cutting a guy's thumb off - yeah that seems like torture. That's how most of us popularly imagine torture - non-lethal prolonged pain. Drowning someone and then not doing it - well, that doesn't quite seem to fit the bill.
And I suspect in many respects, it's not just that - it's that because it doesn't quite seem to fit the bill it's not nearly as hard to get interrogators to do it without psychological damage. As far as their concerned you're really just scaring someone - how bad can it be? These bad people, after all.
Somewhere along there is a gigantic grey area for psychological torture - sleep deprivation, telling someone they'll be executed at the start of a week, giving them a reprieve on Friday then telling them on Monday it's back on (USSR did this to a spy), playing loud noises etc.
A lot of these practices can be classed as torture - yet you can equally get a lot of people to agree that in certain circumstances they are legitimate techniques, especially perceived "softer" ideas such as sleep deprivation (which still don't really yield good info - a US police department got 4 guys to falsely confess to a mass murder through it).
Somewhere between those two, you arrive at something like waterboarding. No permanent injury is inflicted, and to the external observer/public it doesn't quite seem like "pain" as we commonly associate it. Maybe it's akin to firing an unloaded gun at someone - and that starts to rest it in that grey area between physical and psychological torture, and we know at least some of those psychological techniques can be argued to have their utility under special circumstance.
I don't support waterboarding, but I can understand why people might.
Dershowitz's is a massively retarded fucking hack. Seriously fuck him and whatever he thinks, he is just saying that shit to justify the shit Israel is doing.
- "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
Pictures from the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum in Cambodia.
I was like, "There is no way he's going to say what I think he's going to say..."
Ahh he said it!
I'm not sure whether to be like
EDIT: Yeah, it's torture. I am frankly staggered that this even warrants discussion.
Because programs like 24 ram into the public consciousness the extreme hypothetical situation in which torture must be acceptable if it means we get the super secret password from the horrible nasty terrorist for big bad bomb just as the oh noes timer nears zero.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
The answer is clearly yes, historically.
See you lack vision, if they call it "heat-assisted foot massage" I am sure people will be fine with it. I really want to believe that most people would be against it if the actually know what the hell it entails, but than I remember how easy it is to convince people to forget human rights once you label someone a terrorist, murderer, etc.
It's also ingenious.