Literally no one on the Diablo team was involved in this. It's okay to be excited about what they create.
The diablo team is still part of blizzard though. It’s no better than putting money into hearthstone.
Activision-Blizzard is a company of 10,000~ employees. How many of them were involved in the suspension of Blitzchung and the casters? Maybe a handful? What about all the good people who would benefit from your purchases?
Literally no one on the Diablo team was involved in this. It's okay to be excited about what they create.
The diablo team is still part of blizzard though. It’s no better than putting money into hearthstone.
Activision-Blizzard is a company of 10,000~ employees. How many of them were involved in the suspension of Blitzchung and the casters? Maybe a handful? What about all the good people who would benefit from your purchases?
this doesn't work as well as you might hope because they all almost certainly make more money than i do
+3
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yeah, the whole idea of "but what about the people who knew but didn't participate?" has, historically, never held up as a justifiable excuse for people knowingly working for unethical organizations. Shielding people for turning a blind eye to a problem in their ranks has no reasonable basis, ethically speaking. Anybody working at Blizzard should be taking a hard look at who they currently work for, and not just because there will hopefully be severe financial ramifications for the company because of this latest shitty behavior.
The fault here lays squarely with Blizzard as a company. Until it makes some serious course corrections in company philosophy and whoever is in charge, trying to redirect guilt against people, rightfully, boycotting the company in the name of "protecting" other parts of Blizzard is not a great argument.
Yeah, the whole idea of "but what about the people who knew but didn't participate?" has, historically, never held up as a justifiable excuse for people knowingly working for unethical organizations. Shielding people for turning a blind eye to a problem in their ranks has no reasonable basis, ethically speaking. Anybody working at Blizzard should be taking a hard look at who they currently work for, and not just because there will hopefully be severe financial ramifications for the company because of this latest shitty behavior.
The fault here lays squarely with Blizzard as a company. Until it makes some serious course corrections in company philosophy and whoever is in charge, trying to redirect guilt against people, rightfully, boycotting the company in the name of "protecting" other parts of Blizzard is not a great argument.
If not for any reason other than the fact that as history has proven, even if ActiBlizz does well financially that doesn't mean they won't can you anyway.
I can't bring myself to judge any of the devs or Blizz employees for still being at the company. The industry is hard and they're just folk (many very talented folk) just trying to get by doing what they love and are good at, for a company that until pretty recently has been beloved worldwide.
Obviously I'm not going to judge people who don't want to buy their products anymore, either. You can do whatever you want with your money.
+9
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zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
gaming companies are like construction companies when it comes to employees. It’s damn near an identical mentality of project starts slow, things pick up and a rush to close out and finish the punch list. Then if there’s more projects spinning up they move them over, and if not so sorry.
Ethical capitalism doesn't exist - the issues with working/buying form Blizzard are a little tougher because there whole ass is right out there in the open; but it's so hard (impossible) to know that the thing you are working for/buying from, isn't doing harm and taking advantage of others somewhere in the world.
It's still totally fine to agree that this is too much and too brazen to let them get away with it; but I'm sure for a lot of people; trying to find a job that doesn't take advantage of people's suffering in some way is probably surprisingly difficult.
So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
I wasn't replying to you specifically. Your post was just an example of one of them hoping this wouldn't be all be forgotten or ignored. But I mean, do you think it's basically already over? Sooner than you were saying, as no games have even been shown yet.
So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
I wasn't replying to you specifically. Your post was just an example of one of them hoping this wouldn't be all be forgotten or ignored. But I mean, do you think it's basically already over? Sooner than you were saying, as no games have even been shown yet.
front page of HS reddit is still filled with protest posts, so nah
Literally no one on the Diablo team was involved in this. It's okay to be excited about what they create.
The diablo team is still part of blizzard though. It’s no better than putting money into hearthstone.
Activision-Blizzard is a company of 10,000~ employees. How many of them were involved in the suspension of Blitzchung and the casters? Maybe a handful? What about all the good people who would benefit from your purchases?
What about all of the other video game companies that aren’t complicit in the oppression of Hong Kongers? Surely those companies are more deserving, right? All you’d have to do is play other games. There’s lots of other games out there, and you’ll never play them all in your lifetime. You might as well let your conscience inform your gaming choices.
So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
I see it like breaking a picket line: being a scab isn’t cool. I’d argue it isn’t ethical either. People have to eat, but that doesn’t mean it’s cool to do that. When it comes to playing games it should be an easier decision than going on strike because your survival doesn’t depend on it. Blizzard should feel the financial pressure for what they’ve done. There are so many other games out there, and principles are more important than games.
I’ve loved every blizzard game since Warcraft 2, but I can’t feel good about myself if I give blizzard money or provide content for other players by playing their games.
Their only crime is to disallow political protesting on their broadcasts. You might say this makes them complicit to every atrocity on the planet, using the same logic. I wish they would take a stronger stand on politics but it doesn't bother me all that much that they don't. They're just a video game company. I think they've paid and will continue to pay a heavy price for what they did this time, and they'll probably think twice about these sorts of penalties in the future. But I don't want them to go out of business. So no, it doesn't violate my principles to continue buying their products.
As I mentioned earlier, I think a better idea than an uncoordinated, indefinite boycott is something targeted and unmistakably linked to its purpose, like the Mei thing. If you can interfere with Blizzard's relationship with China, it cuts to the heart of the issue while also disallowing any other interpretation.
CEOs are pathological in their ability to take the wrong message from a product not doing well financially. Combined with "gamers" as a group never really putting their money where there mouth is, boycotts just don't work, if the goal is financial pressure.
Again, if you just don't feel good giving them money, obviously don't. There are companies that I don't like buying from, either. But calling people scabs for putting money into a video game... it's not really comparable. A strike is a whole other entity.
If it's a question of supporting developers who worked on the game and didn't have anything to do with decisions higher up the chain, I guess I'm no developer but I assumed they got paid for their work like anyone else. I don't think the guy who textures the treasure goblins is working for free until the game comes out and they see how well it performs before deciding on how much to pay him. You could make the argument that it impacts whether he gets to continue to work during the DLC/ongoing support period, but I'm not even sure if that's usually the same team of people. And you could make an argument that if Blizz's game does poorly then he might be laid off because they won't have enough money to make more games, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a boycott or protest that effective.
I think the little guys are gonna be just fine. If you want a game, buy it because you want to play it, not because it supports a small development team within a massive corporation.
If it's a question of supporting developers who worked on the game and didn't have anything to do with decisions higher up the chain, I guess I'm no developer but I assumed they got paid for their work like anyone else. I don't think the guy who textures the treasure goblins is working for free until the game comes out and they see how well it performs before deciding on how much to pay him. You could make the argument that it impacts whether he gets to continue to work during the DLC/ongoing support period, but I'm not even sure if that's usually the same team of people. And you could make an argument that if Blizz's game does poorly then he might be laid off because they won't have enough money to make more games, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a boycott or protest that effective.
I think the little guys are gonna be just fine. If you want a game, buy it because you want to play it, not because it supports a small development team within a massive corporation.
Blizzard has been letting people go when sales are up, so it’s fair to say no one is safe.
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So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
I see it like breaking a picket line: being a scab isn’t cool. I’d argue it isn’t ethical either. People have to eat, but that doesn’t mean it’s cool to do that. When it comes to playing games it should be an easier decision than going on strike because your survival doesn’t depend on it. Blizzard should feel the financial pressure for what they’ve done. There are so many other games out there, and principles are more important than games.
I’ve loved every blizzard game since Warcraft 2, but I can’t feel good about myself if I give blizzard money or provide content for other players by playing their games.
Yeah, no, I get what you're saying, but dude. It's not unethical for me to keep playing a video game that I enjoy.
A lot of people feel that it's their moral responsibility and duty to boycott Blizzard products -- and more power to them, honestly -- but, as I said before, I'm... not going to stop playing a game that I still like playing. It'd be one thing if I was like "ehh, I haven't really been feeling Hearthstone lately, it hasn't been fun". Because, sure, the decision would be a no brainer at that point.
It's just something I play on the shitter each morning, man. It's something I've been playing for years and years and I still quite enjoy playing it. In no way does that make me "unethical".
Their only crime is to disallow political protesting on their broadcasts. You might say this makes them complicit to every atrocity on the planet, using the same logic. I wish they would take a stronger stand on politics but it doesn't bother me all that much that they don't. They're just a video game company. I think they've paid and will continue to pay a heavy price for what they did this time, and they'll probably think twice about these sorts of penalties in the future. But I don't want them to go out of business. So no, it doesn't violate my principles to continue buying their products.
Make no mistake, blizzard doesn’t mind politics. They’ve inserted politics into their games plenty of times. They only banned blitzchung and the casters because they don’t want to anger China. Otherwise they’d have never taken political stances in the past, and they’d have handed out similar punishments to other players like the ones from American University that held up a sign saying to boycott blizzard and free Hong Kong. It just sounds like video games are more important.
As I mentioned earlier, I think a better idea than an uncoordinated, indefinite boycott is something targeted and unmistakably linked to its purpose, like the Mei thing. If you can interfere with Blizzard's relationship with China, it cuts to the heart of the issue while also disallowing any other interpretation.
CEOs are pathological in their ability to take the wrong message from a product not doing well financially. Combined with "gamers" as a group never really putting their money where there mouth is, boycotts just don't work, if the goal is financial pressure.
Again, if you just don't feel good giving them money, obviously don't. There are companies that I don't like buying from, either. But calling people scabs for putting money into a video game... it's not really comparable. A strike is a whole other entity.
The mei thing is pretty weak. I doubt it will have its intended effect. It’s not like Disney is out of China because they own the Winnie the Pooh cartoon. If it did work then blizzard would just lose customers and money, kind of like a boycott. So why not just boycott and do the mei thing?
Who cares what CEOs think? It doesn’t make giving them money a good idea, and I think gamers are actually pretty good at putting their money where their mouth is. Even if they weren’t, it’s not a reason to give blizzard money.
I don’t see how it’s much different than being a scab. Even if it was different that doesn’t make it right. Some things are more important than video games. If you just don’t care, then whatever, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
I see it like breaking a picket line: being a scab isn’t cool. I’d argue it isn’t ethical either. People have to eat, but that doesn’t mean it’s cool to do that. When it comes to playing games it should be an easier decision than going on strike because your survival doesn’t depend on it. Blizzard should feel the financial pressure for what they’ve done. There are so many other games out there, and principles are more important than games.
I’ve loved every blizzard game since Warcraft 2, but I can’t feel good about myself if I give blizzard money or provide content for other players by playing their games.
Yeah, no, I get what you're saying, but dude. It's not unethical for me to keep playing a video game that I enjoy.
A lot of people feel that it's their moral responsibility and duty to boycott Blizzard products -- and more power to them, honestly -- but, as I said before, I'm... not going to stop playing a game that I still like playing. It'd be one thing if I was like "ehh, I haven't really been feeling Hearthstone lately, it hasn't been fun". Because, sure, the decision would be a no brainer at that point.
It's just something I play on the shitter each morning, man. It's something I've been playing for years and years and I still quite enjoy playing it. In no way does that make me "unethical".
It does, but you don’t have to let that stop you from playing their games. It doesn’t exactly make you a terrible person, but it’s definitely unethical. You do you.
So there was some talk earlier of hope that people wouldn't just forget about this, that it wouldn't just all fizzle out by Blizzcon, that people would take them to task at Blizzcon and refuse to get hype and stick to their guns. Delete accounts and keep them deleted. Like this post:
can i be honest with y'alls for a second, thread. like lemme just get real here for a moment
i am extremely worried that after Blizzcon announcements that everyone will just fucking forget about the Blitzchung thing. i certainly fucking hope not, but man, like. all it'll take is for the fuckboys at Blizzo to be like "ey dawg, check it: new video games........ 8-)" and all the fucking ~*Gamers*~ will suddenly forget their indignant rage and get caught up in the fucking hype train
here's hoping i'm wrong! i'm not optimistic about it tho.
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
I see it like breaking a picket line: being a scab isn’t cool. I’d argue it isn’t ethical either. People have to eat, but that doesn’t mean it’s cool to do that. When it comes to playing games it should be an easier decision than going on strike because your survival doesn’t depend on it. Blizzard should feel the financial pressure for what they’ve done. There are so many other games out there, and principles are more important than games.
I’ve loved every blizzard game since Warcraft 2, but I can’t feel good about myself if I give blizzard money or provide content for other players by playing their games.
Yeah, no, I get what you're saying, but dude. It's not unethical for me to keep playing a video game that I enjoy.
A lot of people feel that it's their moral responsibility and duty to boycott Blizzard products -- and more power to them, honestly -- but, as I said before, I'm... not going to stop playing a game that I still like playing. It'd be one thing if I was like "ehh, I haven't really been feeling Hearthstone lately, it hasn't been fun". Because, sure, the decision would be a no brainer at that point.
It's just something I play on the shitter each morning, man. It's something I've been playing for years and years and I still quite enjoy playing it. In no way does that make me "unethical".
It does, but you don’t have to let that stop you from playing their games. It doesn’t exactly make you a terrible person, but it’s definitely unethical. You do you.
yo i get that it's a pretty fucked situation on the whole, but going around slinging shit like "you're an unethical person for playing a video game" is a pretty wild take, man
notice that i never mentioned anything about money. there's no transaction of money happening here, i'm not giving blizzard my money. it's just me playing a game.
I'm a bit confused here. Are people arguing that it's a moral imperative to buy Blizzard products, now?
i ain't arguing shit about money. money is literally not in the equation. i'm not GIVING them my money anymore, period the end.
i'm arguing that i'm still allowed to keep playing a game that i like playing. that's it.
edit: basically, i'm saying that i won't stop playing the games, but i will stop giving them my money. but apparently because i'm not willing to go all the way, that makes me unethical?
yo i get that it's a pretty fucked situation on the whole, but going around slinging shit like "you're an unethical person for playing a video game" is a pretty wild take, man
notice that i never mentioned anything about money. there's no transaction of money happening here, i'm not giving blizzard my money. it's just me playing a game.
but i guess that makes me unethical, sure!
Whoa whoa whoa, you need to read what's being said here.
No one said "you're an unethical person." They said they consider it unethical.
I think it would probably take a lot more unethical decisions, as well as probably reveling in doing so, to be considered an unethical person overall.
I'm not going to make a value judgement on whether continuing to play Hearthstone would be unethical, but the examples you gave for why you would keep playing it are not proof to the contrary. You said eh, it's just something I have enjoyed for years and just something I play on the shitter. Just because something is low-impact doesn't change whether it's ethical or unethical. And it's also possible for it to be minimally unethical to the point where you could probably focus your attention on literally anything else and have a greater impact, like as a random example, using reusable supermarket bags instead of plastic.
It's kind of like saying there's no ethical consumption under capitalism? Everyone in this thread makes unethical decisions to some degree, you're in very good company. We have to pick and choose what we think matters more.
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
I think how a person responds to Blizzard's actions is up to that individual, and I don't think it's right to judge one way or another. But businesses don't really give a shit about anything except bottom line, so I don't know how to force change if I continue to do the same thing over and over again, regardless of their behavior.
Not playing Hearthstone isn't a sacrifice for me because I've gotten kinda bored with it anyway. I'll be finished with the tombs expac at some point and that will be the end of it. Diablo 4 though... not playing that would be pretty rough. If that comes out in the next 6-12 months and nothing changes? I'm not sure I can justify buying it to myself. Why would they care how unhappy I am about their decisions when at the end of the day I'm still giving them another purchase?
I don’t see how it’s much different than being a scab. Even if it was different that doesn’t make it right. Some things are more important than video games. If you just don’t care, then whatever, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
See this is the shit that I think is cannibalistic about all this. This is throwing shade at people for using plastic straws. It's picking the wrong way to fight for the right thing and going hard on it. I never said I don't care and you know that.
It's different from being a scab because a strike is a real, coordinated effort that has thought, purpose, and hard definitions behind it. Deciding there's a vague boycott and then judging people for not playing along, even though there's been no central effort to organize whatsoever, is different. It's different because it's not planned or thought through and there's no teeth behind it. These sorts of statements give real strikes a bad name.
Again, if you don't want to buy products from a company, more power to you! There's no moral imperative to support a company and I'm pretty sure no one has even halfway said that in this thread. But get real with this passive-aggressive "i guess if you don't care about human rights, then go ahead and play that card game" nonsense.
Blizzchung signed a contract and he knew himself he broke the rules.
He just happens to think it was worth it.
Edit: to make it clear, so do I, but I can also understand Blizzard not wanting politics in their streams.
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For one, the rule that Blitzchung broke is the "don't do anything we don't approve of" rule. That's a normal catchall clause to include in the rules because it lets the company enforce stuff at their discretion but it also means Blizz has full control over whether or not they wanted to punish this and to what degree.
Two, Blizzard has no issue supporting politic ideas on their platforms and in their games that they feel can drive good press or profitability. For example they've made a vocal showing with gay pride in Overwatch because it's relatively popular in the west outside of evangelical circles. What makes gay rights an acceptable political topic but civil rights at large unacceptable other than the profitability or loss thereof that can result from association? Also, all the peripheral content referring to characters like Tracer and 76 as being homosexual is notably absent in China already because of censorship.
If they're going to be this blatantly opportunistic about what they choose to support then they deserve the derision and lack of belief in their convictions that results.
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which i guess kind of speaks to the general state of Arena.....
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Activision-Blizzard is a company of 10,000~ employees. How many of them were involved in the suspension of Blitzchung and the casters? Maybe a handful? What about all the good people who would benefit from your purchases?
CEOs?
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The fault here lays squarely with Blizzard as a company. Until it makes some serious course corrections in company philosophy and whoever is in charge, trying to redirect guilt against people, rightfully, boycotting the company in the name of "protecting" other parts of Blizzard is not a great argument.
If not for any reason other than the fact that as history has proven, even if ActiBlizz does well financially that doesn't mean they won't can you anyway.
Obviously I'm not going to judge people who don't want to buy their products anymore, either. You can do whatever you want with your money.
They treat programmers and testers like laborers.
It's still totally fine to agree that this is too much and too brazen to let them get away with it; but I'm sure for a lot of people; trying to find a job that doesn't take advantage of people's suffering in some way is probably surprisingly difficult.
there is only going fast
I'm not judging any individuals because people gotta like what they gotta like and make their own purchasing decisions with whatever information they have available. But should I take the general sentiment to mean that we can basically call any protesting or boycotting over at this point? The people who make Diablo 4 didn't make these decisions and we need to buy it to support the teams who made it to support their families? Is that where we're at right now?
i literally never did any boycotting to begin with
my whole thing is like, yeah, i still enjoy playing Hearthstone and i ain't about to drop a game that i *really* enjoy playing at the drop of a hat. i have major respect for those that do! but i don't think choosing to not do that means that you're a bad person or anything. i can still play the game and think that Blizzard is a disgusting shitty slimy company. they're not mutually exclusive.
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I wasn't replying to you specifically. Your post was just an example of one of them hoping this wouldn't be all be forgotten or ignored. But I mean, do you think it's basically already over? Sooner than you were saying, as no games have even been shown yet.
front page of HS reddit is still filled with protest posts, so nah
still going strong i think
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
What about all of the other video game companies that aren’t complicit in the oppression of Hong Kongers? Surely those companies are more deserving, right? All you’d have to do is play other games. There’s lots of other games out there, and you’ll never play them all in your lifetime. You might as well let your conscience inform your gaming choices.
I see it like breaking a picket line: being a scab isn’t cool. I’d argue it isn’t ethical either. People have to eat, but that doesn’t mean it’s cool to do that. When it comes to playing games it should be an easier decision than going on strike because your survival doesn’t depend on it. Blizzard should feel the financial pressure for what they’ve done. There are so many other games out there, and principles are more important than games.
I’ve loved every blizzard game since Warcraft 2, but I can’t feel good about myself if I give blizzard money or provide content for other players by playing their games.
CEOs are pathological in their ability to take the wrong message from a product not doing well financially. Combined with "gamers" as a group never really putting their money where there mouth is, boycotts just don't work, if the goal is financial pressure.
Again, if you just don't feel good giving them money, obviously don't. There are companies that I don't like buying from, either. But calling people scabs for putting money into a video game... it's not really comparable. A strike is a whole other entity.
I think the little guys are gonna be just fine. If you want a game, buy it because you want to play it, not because it supports a small development team within a massive corporation.
Blizzard has been letting people go when sales are up, so it’s fair to say no one is safe.
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Yeah, no, I get what you're saying, but dude. It's not unethical for me to keep playing a video game that I enjoy.
A lot of people feel that it's their moral responsibility and duty to boycott Blizzard products -- and more power to them, honestly -- but, as I said before, I'm... not going to stop playing a game that I still like playing. It'd be one thing if I was like "ehh, I haven't really been feeling Hearthstone lately, it hasn't been fun". Because, sure, the decision would be a no brainer at that point.
It's just something I play on the shitter each morning, man. It's something I've been playing for years and years and I still quite enjoy playing it. In no way does that make me "unethical".
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Make no mistake, blizzard doesn’t mind politics. They’ve inserted politics into their games plenty of times. They only banned blitzchung and the casters because they don’t want to anger China. Otherwise they’d have never taken political stances in the past, and they’d have handed out similar punishments to other players like the ones from American University that held up a sign saying to boycott blizzard and free Hong Kong. It just sounds like video games are more important.
The mei thing is pretty weak. I doubt it will have its intended effect. It’s not like Disney is out of China because they own the Winnie the Pooh cartoon. If it did work then blizzard would just lose customers and money, kind of like a boycott. So why not just boycott and do the mei thing?
Who cares what CEOs think? It doesn’t make giving them money a good idea, and I think gamers are actually pretty good at putting their money where their mouth is. Even if they weren’t, it’s not a reason to give blizzard money.
I don’t see how it’s much different than being a scab. Even if it was different that doesn’t make it right. Some things are more important than video games. If you just don’t care, then whatever, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
It does, but you don’t have to let that stop you from playing their games. It doesn’t exactly make you a terrible person, but it’s definitely unethical. You do you.
yo i get that it's a pretty fucked situation on the whole, but going around slinging shit like "you're an unethical person for playing a video game" is a pretty wild take, man
notice that i never mentioned anything about money. there's no transaction of money happening here, i'm not giving blizzard my money. it's just me playing a game.
but i guess that makes me unethical, sure!
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
i ain't arguing shit about money. money is literally not in the equation. i'm not GIVING them my money anymore, period the end.
i'm arguing that i'm still allowed to keep playing a game that i like playing. that's it.
edit: basically, i'm saying that i won't stop playing the games, but i will stop giving them my money. but apparently because i'm not willing to go all the way, that makes me unethical?
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Whoa whoa whoa, you need to read what's being said here.
No one said "you're an unethical person." They said they consider it unethical.
I think it would probably take a lot more unethical decisions, as well as probably reveling in doing so, to be considered an unethical person overall.
I'm not going to make a value judgement on whether continuing to play Hearthstone would be unethical, but the examples you gave for why you would keep playing it are not proof to the contrary. You said eh, it's just something I have enjoyed for years and just something I play on the shitter. Just because something is low-impact doesn't change whether it's ethical or unethical. And it's also possible for it to be minimally unethical to the point where you could probably focus your attention on literally anything else and have a greater impact, like as a random example, using reusable supermarket bags instead of plastic.
It's kind of like saying there's no ethical consumption under capitalism? Everyone in this thread makes unethical decisions to some degree, you're in very good company. We have to pick and choose what we think matters more.
Not playing Hearthstone isn't a sacrifice for me because I've gotten kinda bored with it anyway. I'll be finished with the tombs expac at some point and that will be the end of it. Diablo 4 though... not playing that would be pretty rough. If that comes out in the next 6-12 months and nothing changes? I'm not sure I can justify buying it to myself. Why would they care how unhappy I am about their decisions when at the end of the day I'm still giving them another purchase?
See this is the shit that I think is cannibalistic about all this. This is throwing shade at people for using plastic straws. It's picking the wrong way to fight for the right thing and going hard on it. I never said I don't care and you know that.
It's different from being a scab because a strike is a real, coordinated effort that has thought, purpose, and hard definitions behind it. Deciding there's a vague boycott and then judging people for not playing along, even though there's been no central effort to organize whatsoever, is different. It's different because it's not planned or thought through and there's no teeth behind it. These sorts of statements give real strikes a bad name.
Again, if you don't want to buy products from a company, more power to you! There's no moral imperative to support a company and I'm pretty sure no one has even halfway said that in this thread. But get real with this passive-aggressive "i guess if you don't care about human rights, then go ahead and play that card game" nonsense.
Without Capitalism, there would be no video games.
Citation needed, but put it in a different thread cause it’s wayyy off topic here :P
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No, because that is a ridiculous knee jerk reaction and you seem to be performing mental gymnastics to justify buying the next Blizzard product.
All Blizzard had to do here was...."nothing".
If they didn't make the decision to placate China, then BlitzChung didn't break any rules.
He just happens to think it was worth it.
Edit: to make it clear, so do I, but I can also understand Blizzard not wanting politics in their streams.
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Two, Blizzard has no issue supporting politic ideas on their platforms and in their games that they feel can drive good press or profitability. For example they've made a vocal showing with gay pride in Overwatch because it's relatively popular in the west outside of evangelical circles. What makes gay rights an acceptable political topic but civil rights at large unacceptable other than the profitability or loss thereof that can result from association? Also, all the peripheral content referring to characters like Tracer and 76 as being homosexual is notably absent in China already because of censorship.
If they're going to be this blatantly opportunistic about what they choose to support then they deserve the derision and lack of belief in their convictions that results.