-Conspiracy was not nearly worked as much as it should've been, or at least wasn't attempted. Trading turn order for favors the few times it was done was a difference maker, and lead to 1 powerful bloc dominating the vote for the remainder of the game once it formed.(As noted, lack of in person communication makes this harder, but when bare minimum efforts aren't getting made, it's tough to get the point across).
Eh, speaking as someone who spent the first half of the game desperately trying to finesse the banner order to keep us ahead of both Targaryen and Hoare, I'd say there actually was a fair amount of conspiracy being attempted behind the scenes. How much it worked is anyone's guess, though it seems like we managed to do fairly well in that regard. (Though the mods may not have been privy to this - the Maesters were communicating with each other in large part through Discord PMs, and idk how much everyone else told their respective teams about what was going on in those channels.)
I did like how there were advantages and disadvantages to going before or after someone.
House Hoare and Targaryen have the single longest sequence of a stable alliance of any two houses for the entire game.
Did we? Ah, I suppose Martell and Gardener did have a break that one turn. How purple was your bloodline by the end game?
Bit of pot/kettle with the moralizing about how we should break our alliance eh Boom? :P
The difference was, mainly I didn't want my alliance. I wanted to invade the Trident for ages, but had to deal with the unbreakable Southerners and Northerners. The Northerners ended, and then I hoped I could play a normal, scheming house, but I still had to play the White Knight and deal with 2.5 Kingdoms curbstomping Durrandon. Seriously, if either of you had taken me up on betraying the other, I was happy to go attack Lannister, bide some time, then re-invade the Trident and Cracklaw and Gulltown. I was honest with House Gardener that I wouldn't mind if that meant them winning in the endgame if they just dumped all their armies on your west (this was before the Hoare raids, which I actually, briefly, warned against...but then realized the alliance probably wasn't going to break anyways.)
Seriously, my House chats are full of me ruing the fact I can't invade anyone around me because Martell and Gardener won't kill each other, even just a little.
The problem was, I could trust that you would go elsewhere, I couldn't trust that Durrandon would not just immediately attack. Plus, every time I tried to negotiate peace with Durrandon they wouldn't budge from "give us all our land back and go fuck yourself." as a negotiating position. Contrary to what it might have looked like, our war goal was to take Mistwood and one of either Blackhaven or Greenstone, but they would never accept peace on those terms. Sooo, without being able to secure peace on one front, we were never going to open a second war front against Gardner, such is life.
I'm guessing you mean except for the one time we had actually AGREED to peace and you broke the agreement and attacked anyways?
Alright, I very much have some Opinions on things that happened. They seem to be rather different from everyone elses, maybe that has to do with the position I spent the game in.
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that. After Stark took the western coast, they were definitively in the lead for at least a good three turns before anyone even glanced at them (and this isn't even getting into the fact that there one precisely one fight against Gardener/Martell before Targaryen came down). As well as the fact of yeah, there are quite a few factions to try to keep people in check, but when the power in the lead is literally on the other side of the continent (and also insulated on one side by a strong ally), how much can you actually do other than hope they'll ally with you for a chance to get secrets? Sure, you can try marching a few armies across the world to raid their territory, but you can't conquer anything and you have really high odds of those armies never coming back due to them having nowhere to retreat to (I lost two armies exactly this way when I sent them to raid Martell's territories in an attempt to weaken their resource base, as well as get a few of their armies to back off for a bit). One, that's a big resource investment, two, there's a strong chance someone on your borders is going to take advantage of you having half your armies somewhere else, and three, just because that's what you say you're doing doesn't mean that the people whose territory you're marching through have any reason to believe you're not going to mess them up along the way.
As for my feelings on House Gardener's comments... I mean, what do you expect? 90% of the time your armies were on the border of my territory, if not in it. The one time you actually had stuff elsewhere was when Lannister went at you, which changed immediately when they started throwing themselves against the Iron Islands again. You left your west flank mostly undefended the entire game, and from my understanding you kept snubbing the one House actually in a position to take advantage of that (thank god Hoare was never my enemy, the Teleporting Iron Fleet is terrifying). I mean, you spent pretty much the entire game from the point I joined turtling up and assisting Martell in their offensive. Yeah, the Faith Militant was a bit brutal, but you guys spent the entire game on one strategy with, as far as I could tell, very little plans for shifting that if bad things happened. It may suck, but it's not anyone elses fault for taking advantage of that.
As for my own experience... well, it sure was a thing. I came in a few turns in to replace the Durrandon maester after he was forced to bow out. Then there was that unfortunate issue where our Lord quit, and very shortly after that our Knight just... went silent (I'm still not entirely sure what happened there). So it was me and @H3Knuckles running things, and not long after that, the Lord Commander approached us with an offer just too juicy to refuse. In some ways, it was a fun experience (though to anyone who dreamed of running their own House for any reason, let me tell you: you really don't want to), but also extremely draining. To anyone who I dropped the ball for trades and such on in PMs, I do apologize, as trying to keep track of everything just burned me out some. I enjoyed working with everyone (even you Martell bastards), and I hope no one thought that any of my RP vitriol was actual anger.
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
House Hoare and Targaryen have the single longest sequence of a stable alliance of any two houses for the entire game.
Did we? Ah, I suppose Martell and Gardener did have a break that one turn. How purple was your bloodline by the end game?
Bit of pot/kettle with the moralizing about how we should break our alliance eh Boom? :P
The difference was, mainly I didn't want my alliance. I wanted to invade the Trident for ages, but had to deal with the unbreakable Southerners and Northerners. The Northerners ended, and then I hoped I could play a normal, scheming house, but I still had to play the White Knight and deal with 2.5 Kingdoms curbstomping Durrandon. Seriously, if either of you had taken me up on betraying the other, I was happy to go attack Lannister, bide some time, then re-invade the Trident and Cracklaw and Gulltown. I was honest with House Gardener that I wouldn't mind if that meant them winning in the endgame if they just dumped all their armies on your west (this was before the Hoare raids, which I actually, briefly, warned against...but then realized the alliance probably wasn't going to break anyways.)
Seriously, my House chats are full of me ruing the fact I can't invade anyone around me because Martell and Gardener won't kill each other, even just a little.
The problem was, I could trust that you would go elsewhere, I couldn't trust that Durrandon would not just immediately attack. Plus, every time I tried to negotiate peace with Durrandon they wouldn't budge from "give us all our land back and go fuck yourself." as a negotiating position. Contrary to what it might have looked like, our war goal was to take Mistwood and one of either Blackhaven or Greenstone, but they would never accept peace on those terms. Sooo, without being able to secure peace on one front, we were never going to open a second war front against Gardner, such is life.
I'm guessing you mean except for the one time we had actually AGREED to peace and you broke the agreement and attacked anyways?
If it helps Floosevelt noted that I was moving from Machiavelli level evil to Cobra Commander for that manuever.
House Hoare and Targaryen have the single longest sequence of a stable alliance of any two houses for the entire game.
Did we? Ah, I suppose Martell and Gardener did have a break that one turn. How purple was your bloodline by the end game?
Bit of pot/kettle with the moralizing about how we should break our alliance eh Boom? :P
The difference was, mainly I didn't want my alliance. I wanted to invade the Trident for ages, but had to deal with the unbreakable Southerners and Northerners. The Northerners ended, and then I hoped I could play a normal, scheming house, but I still had to play the White Knight and deal with 2.5 Kingdoms curbstomping Durrandon. Seriously, if either of you had taken me up on betraying the other, I was happy to go attack Lannister, bide some time, then re-invade the Trident and Cracklaw and Gulltown. I was honest with House Gardener that I wouldn't mind if that meant them winning in the endgame if they just dumped all their armies on your west (this was before the Hoare raids, which I actually, briefly, warned against...but then realized the alliance probably wasn't going to break anyways.)
Seriously, my House chats are full of me ruing the fact I can't invade anyone around me because Martell and Gardener won't kill each other, even just a little.
The problem was, I could trust that you would go elsewhere, I couldn't trust that Durrandon would not just immediately attack. Plus, every time I tried to negotiate peace with Durrandon they wouldn't budge from "give us all our land back and go fuck yourself." as a negotiating position. Contrary to what it might have looked like, our war goal was to take Mistwood and one of either Blackhaven or Greenstone, but they would never accept peace on those terms. Sooo, without being able to secure peace on one front, we were never going to open a second war front against Gardner, such is life.
I'm guessing you mean except for the one time we had actually AGREED to peace and you broke the agreement and attacked anyways?
If it helps Floosevelt noted that I was moving from Machiavelli level evil to Cobra Commander for that manuever.
Also admittedly by that point I had kind of moved on to the stance of "I know I'm not gonna win, but I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure you don't either".
As for my feelings on House Gardener's comments... I mean, what do you expect? 90% of the time your armies were on the border of my territory, if not in it. The one time you actually had stuff elsewhere was when Lannister went at you, which changed immediately when they started throwing themselves against the Iron Islands again. You left your west flank mostly undefended the entire game, and from my understanding you kept snubbing the one House actually in a position to take advantage of that (thank god Hoare was never my enemy, the Teleporting Iron Fleet is terrifying). I mean, you spent pretty much the entire game from the point I joined turtling up and assisting Martell in their offensive. Yeah, the Faith Militant was a bit brutal, but you guys spent the entire game on one strategy with, as far as I could tell, very little plans for shifting that if bad things happened. It may suck, but it's not anyone elses fault for taking advantage of that.
Yeah we spent a lot of time punching you. But we were fighting Lannister before we were fighting you, and Targaryen pushed us hard to make peace with Lannister. We needed cows, and if they weren't coming from Lannister they were coming from you.
So that idea of Gardener "one strategy" is sort of bunk. Also, like, the hosts decided to fuck with us because I guess we weren't fucking with enough people? We got our shit taken away and kept from us by the hosts despite the rules stating otherwise (free Support on Conquering Keeps with no ownership stickers). Sure, the Conquer part was a mistake and our hosts are human, but that whole "Faith Militant" thing was pretty bullshit.
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that.
No, whether players recognize threats of the strategy of other player factions effectively does not matter and should not matter to a impartial host.
I get that you were frustrated, but that's the players' collective agency to win or lose.
As for my feelings on House Gardener's comments... I mean, what do you expect? 90% of the time your armies were on the border of my territory, if not in it. The one time you actually had stuff elsewhere was when Lannister went at you, which changed immediately when they started throwing themselves against the Iron Islands again. You left your west flank mostly undefended the entire game, and from my understanding you kept snubbing the one House actually in a position to take advantage of that (thank god Hoare was never my enemy, the Teleporting Iron Fleet is terrifying). I mean, you spent pretty much the entire game from the point I joined turtling up and assisting Martell in their offensive. Yeah, the Faith Militant was a bit brutal, but you guys spent the entire game on one strategy with, as far as I could tell, very little plans for shifting that if bad things happened. It may suck, but it's not anyone elses fault for taking advantage of that.
Yeah we spent a lot of time punching you. But we were fighting Lannister before we were fighting you, and Targaryen pushed us hard to make peace with Lannister. We needed cows, and if they weren't coming from Lannister they were coming from you.
So that idea of Gardener "one strategy" is sort of bunk. Also, like, the hosts decided to fuck with us because I guess we weren't fucking with enough people? We got our shit taken away and KEPT FROM US by the hosts despite the rules stating otherwise (free Support on Conquering Keeps with no ownership stickers). Sure, the Conquer part was a mistake and our hosts are human, but that whole "Faith Militant" thing was pretty bullshit.
Yeah, it sucks that they messed that up. If that rule had been done properly, things could have been very different. But as you said, the hosts are human, and sometimes things get missed.
As for the rest of it? As someone whose entire game was trying to fight off the coordinated assault of two Houses with about four territories worth of resources, I somewhat lack sympathy for both resource shortages and bad things happening.
I should clarify that my biggest problem was playing to win and not having fun.
That magnified everything else.
It was the reason I quit.
There was no reason to get mad at Matev for letting Summerhall burn after we submitted invalid orders based on his clarifications.
So I quit then. Because I got mad, not because that happened.
And I didn't think I would not get mad if any other minor issue occurred.
That situation sucked, but so too did the general positioning and the before-I-joined strategizing.
As did drawing shade from other kingdoms in the thread whilst we were losing (with not even the justification of 'we're RPing literal demons').
I should have been able to choke that all down, but I hyper-focused and took everything personally.
It wasn't worth playing, because I didn't know how to deal.
Or have fun.
And I'm sorry that I took the spot of someone else who might've been able to have fun.
I realised too late my mistake.
I don't think it was a mistake to give it a shot, and you did the right thing, when you left the game to avoid torturing yourself when you realized it wasn't working for ya.
Like we know there was no person who's spot you stole. It wasn't filled. It might never have been, or filled with someone with the same issue.
I think you enabled a lot of fun for players by giving it a shot, while you were there.
Completely divorced from the game, we appreciate having you around Discrider.
I legit love your roleplay and attitude. You are a boon to the community even if you are feeling down right now.
We love ya!
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that.
No, whether players recognize threats of the strategy of other player factions effectively does not matter and should not matter to a impartial host.
I get that you were frustrated, but that's the players' collective agency to win or lose.
Nah, an impartial host should work to ensure the game doesn't empty.
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that.
No, whether players recognize threats of the strategy of other player factions effectively does not matter and should not matter to a impartial host.
I get that you were frustrated, but that's the players' collective agency to win or lose.
Nah, an impartial host should work to ensure the game doesn't empty.
OK; then why didn't the hosts spike Tagaryen like the spiked Gardener and Stark?
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that.
No, whether players recognize threats of the strategy of other player factions effectively does not matter and should not matter to a impartial host.
I get that you were frustrated, but that's the players' collective agency to win or lose.
Nah, an impartial host should work to ensure the game doesn't empty.
OK; then why didn't the hosts spike Tagaryen like the spiked Gardener and Stark?
I'd have to look back to understand the game state, and wouldn't know anyway.
I'm fairly sure the endgame timer started fairly soon after the Militants arose though, so maybe the hosts moved from poking people to just ending the game?
Eh, there's some of the bad parts of the diplomacy game type that carried through. There's also no real way to balance against the border/neighbor advantage as they will always have more relative strength.
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that.
No, whether players recognize threats of the strategy of other player factions effectively does not matter and should not matter to a impartial host.
I get that you were frustrated, but that's the players' collective agency to win or lose.
Nah, an impartial host should work to ensure the game doesn't empty.
OK; then why didn't the hosts spike Tagaryen like the spiked Gardener and Stark?
Well, they did in Duskendale because we decided to dunk everything on Tarth, but the point was we were actually trying to have alliance shift, and we're being very heroic actually helping a nearly defeated house stay in the game against a Super Alliance. They could read my chats, and knew that I was very, very honest about the fact if either Martell or Gardener made a real peace with Durrandon and turned on the other, my House was happy to back to playing a normal game. The hosts understood we were basically forced into the position of fighting a power bloc with all our efforts, or not only would we lose, but we would watch another House suffer in an unfair game. Didn't you read the Hosts comments? They even made that clear. Even then, I was still looking for any chance to go fight Lannister or someone else, like Hoare or Arryn. I was praying for it. I was sooooo bored politically speaking. At least I did get a good secret drop at the end, ha ha.
Seriously, at any moment, you could have worked with Durrandon to attack Martell, and the Faith Revolt would not have happen. You chose that path, even while warned, (cows can be traded for, but that iron was sooooo critical), and paid for it.
Yeah, that's what I meant about where the events appeared. Gardener didnt make any moves, Stark took land and then built up a massive war chest, and Martell became almost unstoppable on the battlefield.
Given all that, giving those factions something to fight was proper. Had they sent their heirs to the Wall Stark and Martell would of coasted to an easy victory.
Very proud of how well Targaryen and Arryn finished given I felt we were middle powers most of the game. And Durrandon and especially Hoare punched well above their weight!
I completely disagree.
There are 9 player factions to give battle to those in a lead.
It may seem like that, but there was one next to Martell that didn't do it!
As for my feelings on House Gardener's comments... I mean, what do you expect? 90% of the time your armies were on the border of my territory, if not in it. The one time you actually had stuff elsewhere was when Lannister went at you, which changed immediately when they started throwing themselves against the Iron Islands again. You left your west flank mostly undefended the entire game, and from my understanding you kept snubbing the one House actually in a position to take advantage of that (thank god Hoare was never my enemy, the Teleporting Iron Fleet is terrifying). I mean, you spent pretty much the entire game from the point I joined turtling up and assisting Martell in their offensive. Yeah, the Faith Militant was a bit brutal, but you guys spent the entire game on one strategy with, as far as I could tell, very little plans for shifting that if bad things happened. It may suck, but it's not anyone elses fault for taking advantage of that.
Yeah we spent a lot of time punching you. But we were fighting Lannister before we were fighting you, and Targaryen pushed us hard to make peace with Lannister. We needed cows, and if they weren't coming from Lannister they were coming from you.
So that idea of Gardener "one strategy" is sort of bunk. Also, like, the hosts decided to fuck with us because I guess we weren't fucking with enough people? We got our shit taken away and kept from us by the hosts despite the rules stating otherwise (free Support on Conquering Keeps with no ownership stickers). Sure, the Conquer part was a mistake and our hosts are human, but that whole "Faith Militant" thing was pretty bullshit.
Ah, I wanted you guys to fight Martell, lol. Plenty of cows and iron there. Then I could go fight Durrandon!
I've kept my comments short and mostly very light in terms of reaction and Opinions, but a few things here have been said that I just very heavily disagree with, so I'm going to get this out.
There's a lot of resentment here because the GMs "interfered" with the game. Well, here's the thing: they have to. That's part of what running a game means. A GM isn't there to just be this robot who crunches numbers and then declares the results. If you're running a game, that means looking at the situation, reading the players, figuring out what's going on, and then making choices about what would be best for the game. There was a very clear and well-reasoned post (from Austin, I believe) that laid out why the super-alliances were a bad thing. It made the game stagnant and basically prevented any significant changes from occurring. Stark and Arryn actually had plans to become a northern Union (the fact that I very much would have stabbed them in the back was irrelevant, because I hadn't told anyone, not even my own house) and we agreed that while we weren't going to just end cooperation from one turn to the next, we also realised the downside of a game where the victor is decided in more or less the first five turns.
The whole notion of an impartial GM is a flawed one, because it is their job to keep things interesting, and that means interfering. If you're running an RPG game and the party spends a few sessions just sitting around and doing nothing of note because they're comfortable, then you drop something on them to get the story rolling again. So when the momentum of this game stalled because everything became about somehow breaking the northern and southern alliances, there was no choice but to intervene.
For our own part, we Arryn took too long to realise that protracted warfare on behalf of another kingdom wasn't the way to go, and the result was that we dropped in power from almost-top of the order to almost-bottom. In our case, this happened because alliances shifted and we got hammered. Then we spent the rest of the game just trying to get everyone to ignore us while we rebuilt and readied for a final strike, which was fucked up by one typo in army orders that nobody in the house noticed, and then me actually paying our debt to the Starks instead of betraying them outright. In my defense, they looked ready to invade and I really thought they would do it regardless.
But the alliances down south never shifted.
Theoretically, yes, the game can balance itself. But it just didn't happen here. Once we had a superpower in the north and south, they became almost untouchable. We weren't going to attack the Starks because the moment we did that, Hoare and Targaryen could hit us with impunity again. The reason that only happened in the last two turns as a united attack was because it took until then to actually agree to work together on it. Even then I didn't trust them fully (rightfully so!) and it was only feasible because our armies were on opposite sides of the border. In the mid-game, it would take a collaboration by four or five central houses to properly hurt one of the "polar" superpowers, and try getting us to actually trust each other long enough to do that.
Hell, for our part, House Arryn was constantly looking for and implementing ways to hurt our allies too and keep them in check. We denied resources to the Starks, we prevented army actions to the Targaryens (you're welcome, Floosevelt), and we tried to dig up dirt on anyone we could, even if that almost never worked. Seriously, the citadel dice hated our guts. At no point did we just blindly help anyone. Alliances? Sure. But if you really trusted that an alliance with us meant we weren't going to do what we could to screw you over too, you were dead wrong.
The TLDR of all of this is that if the GMs hadn't intervened, the game would have become a lost cause for the central kingdoms pretty quickly. There's a load of events in the rulebook for this very reason. You'd have seen an exodus of central kingdom players pretty soon.
And while there are certainly parts of this that should be refined and reworked if it gets run again, the interventions to prevent super-blocs were right. And I say this as one of the houses which initially suffered from changing strategies.
That's my final piece on this. Matev and Austin did a fantastic job as far as I'm concerned. Now I'm going to keep amusing myself with stupid jokes about House Allpakka and basking in the fact that for a glorious short while, we came back from the brink of disaster to lead the scoreboard.
For me atleast, any criticism given is directed at the game as a PbP event and not aimed at the GMs in particular. They tried something pretty darn huge (mega even!) and did their darnedest. I personally hope both of them aren't put off by this, but instead take what worked well and become aware of what might not.
On some positive notes:
There was a ton of player interaction. Like everyday multiple pages of dialogue, I had several long running PMs. The Starks had something like 800 posts in their house PMs alone and we used the proboards to host our action logs.
An engaging an interesting combat system. Nobody is saying the system didn't give players options, there was a lot to think and strategize about every turn and some neat options to throw some chaos out there.
RPing was maintained through out the game. Most of the forum stuff I have played about 1/4 actually interact with the story element and that usually gets stripped away to nothing after a few days when everything becomes stark game theory discussion.
Thought I'd share my delving adventures as the Heir if anyone's interested!
Buried in the lands of The Trident (Harrenhal), controlled by House Hoare.
Austin: Envoys from the Iron Bank have ask you to search for the relic, but give you warning that the tomb in which is lays is haunted. To add additional work to it, they are very forgetful, and can't remember which specific tomb of the bunch the relic is actually located in.
Gizzy: First, I visit the Hoare office of the Maestor's to inquire the location of the various tombs located within this lands boarders. I request a map with the locations marked, and also research rumors about which tombs are haunted to narrow down the location. I learn that there are rumors of thousands of captives who have died while laboring build the castle walls of Harrenhal.
I'm not quite sure how to deal with ghosts, but I am fully prepared to put these muscles to work heaving lids off stone caskets and prying some tombs open. I set off in the morning to explore each tomb, hoping ghosts are not as active in the daylight hours. I come prepared with a latern, iron chisel, sledgehammer, and a shovel. I painstaking chisel each coffer lid open and wield my sledgehammer to break open any that are stuck in search of this relic. I reach one casket where my chisel proves worthless, my sledgehammer has dulled, so I punch and burst through the stone with my bear hands. BEAR HANDS FULL OF BRAWN!
Austin: You shatter the caskets, and throw open the tombs. Your bulk ripping into stone with a sound of destruction that scares off any ghastly spirits who might be hanging around. Finally, when you have ripped apart the last stone structure, you take inventory amongst the shards of stone left in your wake.
Unfortunately, you haven't found the relic, likely due to the forgetful bankers mistakenly giving you the complete wrong location.
As you turn to leave, disappointed and sweat covered, you see the glint of gold in your peripheral. Brushing aside a face that was likely the bust of someone's grandfather, you find a single piece of gold sticking out of a pouch. Pocketing it, you open the pouch to find a written note inside, it's contents describing a hidden treasure, likely buried alongside some relative as a keepsake without it's previous owner knowing it's true worth.
You have failed your Delve (7-9). You gain 1 gold, and a new relic location card: Buried in the lands of Blackhaven, controlled by House Durrandon
Buried in the lands of Saltshore, controlled by House Martell.
Austin: Saltshore, at the bottom of Westeros, that's where your relic notes have led you. For a territory next to the Martell House seat, you expected more grandure than the simple farming lands you travel through. Still, there are smaller cities, and from those cities, information still flows. Yes, others have heard of the legend you seek. You receive information as well as a warning. The item is guarded by Squishers, half-fish, half-man monsters. Any attempts to approach them have been rebuffed, and a couple so called adventurers have been lost when they pressed harder.
Still, you won't be dissuaded, and you seek out the Squishers. You find what you can only assume they would call a camp on the edges of the Summer Sea. You must find your relic, but you know it won't be easy to get there.
Gizzy: I wait until nightfall to approach the camp, progressing stealthfully on the soft sand and remaining downwind of the camp sight. Watching carefully I spot two figures I assume to be look-outs and am surprised by how human they appear from this distance. Tightening the grip on my longsword I creep closer until I can make out the squisher's sharp teeth and webbed hands.
One walks near my location behind a pile of driftwood. I attempt to catch him off guard from behind and slit his neck before he can call out. However in my haste I crack a piece of the driftwood alerting the second lookout who come running in my direction. I use my pure strength to hoist up the now dead fish man and throw him at his companion.
Suddenly I am surrounded by fish monsters! Brandishing my sword I thrust it straight into the nearest enemy then quickly transition to a reverse grip in order to slash through the pale neck of the angry fishman. I flip backwards and holding the sword in one hand, pick up a boulder with my MIGHTY BRUTE STRENGTH in the other hand and perform a combo of bashing in one guy's head with the rock while simultaneously stabbing another foe behind me.
Will Gizzy defeat all the fishmen and find the relic!?
Austin: You are strong, and you are quick. The monsters get cut down as quickly as they engage you. But they keep coming. You wonder, in the midst of battle, how many of them there are, and if you should have scouted longer. The thoughts are lost in the ferocity of battle, as you cleave down another pair. Your limbs are getting tired, you feel the adrenaline coursing through your body but know that it won't last forever.
And then it happens. As you go to strike another one, their claw slips through your defense and rakes across your center. You feel the pain and gasp even as you cut the him down. You look down and see your blood as your arm instinctively cradles your gut. You have no choice but to flee. You stagger back to the city, seeking out a healer to prevent your imminent demise. The relic is out of reach, and you know that you aren't capable of getting to it while the Squishers still guard it.
You fail the Delve (6-). You must choose whether you will lose 2 gold, or lose the relic location card.
Buried in the lands of Blackhaven, controlled by House Durrandon.
Austin: Explain how you would solve this challenge. Please remember that if you have matching Xs in a trait (colored or blank) to explain how you are using that trait for the bonus die roll.
Blackhaven, a farming land filled mostly with cattle and the folks that raise them. You find yourself here after the last text you had found indicated that there should be a history of a relic still somewhere in this territory. Your search begins in the only major city here, Maesters and librarians open to helping you (for the right price, of course).
You find a lead, however, in a name. Dalran Stokeworth. Rumor becomes whispers, whispers become back alley dealings of someone who knows someone, until you finally meet someone in an inn who is able to give you a location. Dalran is a scholor, located in the Monastery. But, they caution, he is a recluse who is unlikely to speak to outsiders.
Still, you head off towards the Monastery, seeking audience. You must have piqued his curiosity, as he agrees to see you, but as you enter, you can tell from his demeanor that he isn't in a giving mood.
"I've heard that you've been seeking me, which means you want the knowledge of what I know how to find. I could consider giving that to you, but it comes at a price..."
((I will leave it to you to identify what great price he asks you to pay, and how you accomplish paying it))
Gizzy: Well met learn-ed scholar. I have access to just the manuscripts you seek. As you well know the people of the Vale serve the Seven, but there are sects that still follow the Old Gods of the Forest. My Maester recently unearthed a text that appears to detail information about certain powerful nature spirits. This manuscript is currently in a rough state and may take some time to restore and translate some of the pages and ensure its protection for travel. I am sure that I can convince my Maester to make this trade for your help in retrieving this relic I seek.
- If Dalran Strokeworth agrees to this trade, I make my way back to the Vale and recount the information to my Maester.
“But we don’t have such a book in our library! And if we did, we would never part with such a valuable possession!”
“Oh ho – but see that’s where I’ve bought us some time in the name of restoration. You and I are going to write this manuscript, weather its appearance appropriately, and we’ll fool this old recluse! And have a good laugh as the stories we created become accepted as truth!”
- I deliver the fake manuscript to Dalran Stokeworth USING MY BRAINS TO TRICK HIM!
Austin: Dalran, in his greed and eagerness, does a poor job of validating the manuscript you provide to him. He glances at it with unabashedly hungry eyes and reaches behind himself to hand you a parchment.
Knowing you could have Beene adult tricked as well, you decide to take the risk and not open it until you are far enough away.
And so, sitting in an inn on your way back to your House seat, you open the dusty parchment casing to reveal it’s secrets.
You have succeeded in your Delve (By spending 1 gold). You have found the ability to make Wildfire.
Wildfire: Once per round, you may grant one of your armies Support . If you roll a 6 or lower for that army’s action, it is disbanded.
Buried in the lands of Massey's Hook, controlled by House Targaryen
Austin: A stubborn farmer, shepherd, or servant with a vice,...are using the relic for some religious purpose, without knowing it’s true nature...,...and are currently in mourning
You travel to Massey's Hook, a large farming territory on the east cost of Westeros. There have been reports that reached your ears of a farmer who had come into ownership of something extravagent, and from the context you received, it certainly sounded like the relic you were after.
As you approach his homestead, you note that nothing really looks out of the ordinary. You weren't sure what you expected, but a normal farmhouse wasn't it. You rap on the door, and slowly a man approaches. As he opens the door you cordially greet him and he returns the favor. Again, nothing seems out of the ordinary, so you try an honest approach and explain the rumors.
He nods, then motions you inside, leading you to a room in the back of the house. Inside the room, in the center on a wooden pedestal sits the relic you are after. Surrounding it, various sigils and tapestries, depicting the Faith of the Seven. The farmer explains that his wife had recently died, and as he was burying her, he found the relic in the burial spot. Taking it as a sign, he brought it in here and now prays to the Seven through it each night. He seems very attached to the relic, so how can you get your hands on it?
Gizzy: I offer the farmer my condolences for his wife, and agree that this relic is surely a sign from the Seven, specifically the Mother and a gift from his late wife. I explain that what the relic represents is exactly my purpose in traveling to the village, to bestow him with blessings of prosperity to elevate his position in life and invigorate his farm. I offer a large sum of money in exchange for the relic that should let him live out the remainder of his days comfortably. His prayers have been heard and the relic itself wasn’t the blessing – the blessing is the wealth and prosperity the relic has brought to the farmer. Hopefully the farmer agrees with my REASONING in this matter and accepts my generous offer.
Austin: The farmer pauses, considering your words. You can see the fight on his face, but then he looks at a scarf draped on the pedestal, clearly an item of his wife's. The wind blows and it sways back and forth. His eyes follow it intently, and his face softens.
"You're right." he says . "This isn't how she'd want to be remembered, she'd want me to be happy and help others."
He grabs the shining candle off the pedestal carefully, handing it over to you. You exchange it for a bag of gold and a promise of more to come.
You have succeeded at your Delve. You have received the following relic:
Glass Candle - Gain a +1 to Forge a Link rolls. If you have the Valyrian Steel Maester link, instead gain +1 to all rolls made at the Citadel Table
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Also I've played many board games that have rules built in to keep people from running away with the whole game and letting players participate more evenly throughout. I think these work very well, however the difference is that those rules are crystal clear upfront. Instead of a vague warning of break it up or something might happen - there needed to be an advanced warning like "To be implemented going forward 2 rounds from now, any House with a 3 power lead will be hit with a targeted event." That would have given folks time to adjust their strategy and maybe trade relics away or cede land if they didn't want to find out what the big bad was going to be.
I think there was just a lot of confusion on expectations, the warnings were vague, combined with we all have a silo'd view and were unaware how hopeless some folks felt. So I can see how it seemed to come out of the blue to be suddenly "punished for winning."
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
I will just say though, whatever minor quibbles I have, I'm very grateful this game was run. I, and likely many others, have been having a pretty rough couple weeks, so it was nice to be able to focus on a fun game instead.
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facetiousa wit so dryit shits sandRegistered Userregular
Yeah I hope my few complaints aren't construed as anger or that I didn't enjoy myself. I did, immensely, and Matev and Austin did a fantastic job overall.
"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
I'll say that it's a bit of a bummer to read the part of Matev's notes about our GMs' collective disappointment and exhaustion around the events of the game. Sucks when other players have a rough time, but it's even worse when it's dragging the GMs down. and ya know, equal to their own desire to create a fulfilling experience for the players, I wanted to engage with the game in a way that made them feel like the time they spent on it was being seen and appreciated! I'll add a few observations, in case they're helpful to the GMs or anybody else going forward, but in case it’s ever in danger of being unclear, I absolutely am thankful to them for their efforts and think they did a killer job
I definitely agree with what gizzy said about warnings, though, and add: If DMs actually want something to happen (to break up a power bloc in this case), I'd recommend they just do it. it can be backed up in-fiction, and by the events that are in the GMs toolbox right out of the box. If you say that you're going to inflict negative events, though, then you're asking the teams to instead weigh the negative impact of the event against the benefit of the alliance and decide if it’s worth it in the end. which is a fine route--but not if the survival of the alliance is going to be considered a failure of the events, or a failure of the players to respond appropriately
(also just in our specific case: the faith militant was a bit of a bust, I think, cause it inspired even more cooperation between us. another joint threat along our shared border that doesn't negotiate with our lords wasn’t really the ticket if that was the intended result)
i had a lot more written earlier, but I’ll try and be somewhat brief, cause I don’t want to just come across as overly defensive of our house’s play decisions. to be honest it just makes me a bit melancholy to look back on such a thoroughly engrossing time, when now it feels like the takeaway from several other players is that we weren't considerate enough to blow off our foot in the middle of a game we were doing well at (which, although it has a GM i trust to make rulings and shake things up, is not d&d and actually has winners and a scoreboard). there were enough variables and unknowns heading into this pbp translation of a game with a slighty wonky rulebook as-is that there's no way to prevent 33 people handling it all & expecting something different, that’s just how it is, I know. And regarding the corrective action, I think if the majority of the players enjoyed the events, then it was absolutely the right call. but frankly, i don't think the events (and specifically the dead and the faith) had much to do with shaking up the game. it felt more to me that it was the emergence of the central alliance that did that, which was an actual unification by the players, using the tools at their disposal. Did it also calcify the southern alliance? apparently, but that wasn’t the foregone conclusion some are treating it as. I wasn’t able to read the room like our GMs could, and so trust the call needed to be made in the end, to salvage the game. but when I look at the arc of the game (ignorant of anything that actually happened in lord PMs) i don’t see a GM fiat sabotaging the winners, I see a bunch of lords (and, it turns out, vengeful maesters) who finally figured out how to use the tools at their disposal to attack those in the lead
I realise I came across as a little embittered and accusatory and I just want to be clear that I meant what I said about how this game was a lot of fun, and I enjoyed the scheming & being schemed against. I can see where the shortcomings of doing this as a forum game were, but this was a weird and wonderful (and sometimes stressful) way to spend three weeks. I'm grateful to have been a part of it with you all.
Most of the moves I made as a knight I gave names.
Operation Desalination (planed strike at Hoare)
Operation Erosion (Planned strike at Arryn)
Operation Lion Tamer (Planed strike at Lannister)
Operation Stag Hunter (Planed strike at Durrandon)
At the start of the game, I gave a bunch of plans to my lord and assessed the advantages, risks, goals and potential consequences of each. We made the mistake of trying for The Trident on turn one, got beat badly and constantly had to keep and eye on Hoare.
We could not get Hoare to peace out with use, even as the shed land to Stark. And the Arryn attacked us, leading to what I call the Northern War. At some point there was a ceasefire agreement, or at least that is what I was told. It might of all been a big misunderstanding in retrospect. Arryn attack the next turn, leading to us to do the same later in the game. It caused a lot of bad blood.
Operation Wing Clipper (because of Arryn's falcon)
Operation Counter Punch (A planned defensive move to trap Arryn armies, failed miserably when Arryn took Cracklaw)
Operation Ratwing (Plan to take Gulltown, a long time goal of mine)
That's all I remember of that war, Arryn asked for peace once we had 5 armies and good position. At the time I wanted to push for more land, but in retrospect the fact that we peaced out on even terms having trading one province for one province helped a lot. It was perhaps even beneficial to them, they got wood they needed and we got grain we needed. They also got a fort right next to our capital, something that always worried me.
Oh, at one point during this @AustinP0027 started yelling at us in Discord because we had so many armies in the Saltpans that he was having trouble making the map.
The next plan was Operation Game Ranger, our plan to ride south and give Durrandon some breathing room against Gardener and Martell. It worked out pretty will. The idea was to move in, kill some armies, take some land, make a ceasefire between the three southern houses so Durrandon could breath (we really felt bad one player was fighting two full houses). This is what I would consider to be the
But then Martell took Tarth, which I had earlier identified as a "red line" because it would allow Martell to spawn armies right next to our lands. The biggest advantage we had against Martell was their long supply lines, while ours were short. We might not have the resources of Martell, but in a defensive war we could Cut Off and make them march up again from Mistwood while ours could be mustered and move into battle in the same turn. But if they had Tarth, they would have more resources and equal supply lines. It was also right next to two of our rich provinces.
I came up with Operation Thunder Struck (cause fighting in the Stormlands). The plan was to take Tarth, use it to anchor our south and then move to the easy targets in Lannister lands. This is what I would consider to the be start of The Southern War, as the goals changed from keeping Durrandon alive in order to keep the buffer between us and Martell to outright fighting Martell and taking their land. Sadly, it turned into a bloody slog.
Thunder Struck was followed up with Lighting Strike and Spearbreaker, both aimed at taking Tarth. At one time we actually reached an agreement with Martell, they would give up Tarth and we would stop our aggression. Martell did not honor the agreement. I don't know why. The end result was the war continued. My goals had always been the destruction of the enemy army in the field followed by conquest, as I saw how often land went back an forth when armies were left alive. Against Martell this was just not possible.
After Hoare raided Gardener, Martell and Gardener teamed up to raid us. I really though that my failure to prevent that would cost us the game. I spent the last few turns trying to undo the damage. There were no glorious names for the operations in our own land, it was just a desperate attempt to stop the damage. We breifly work with Arryn at this time, as they would affraid that the Martells would burn Gulltown and we wanted to protect Satlpens. I had forgotten about Heir bonus since ours was gone and Martell was able to raise Saltpens regardless.
So that's a brief history of the Targaryans at war. If you are wondering how we cooperated with other houses, we really didn't. There were times where we gave support actions to Durrandon or Hoare, and when we were not officially allied with Durrandon we had to be careful with moves as not to kill each others armies. But Durrandon (@Allanon Kisigar) was very independently minded, there were times I tried to get them to attack somewhere but they always had their own goals. Hoare (@Bendery It Like Beckham) approached us about attacking Gardener, and even then we didnt know what they were planing. At the time I felt Gardener must of been feeding reasources to Martell, I think I really underestimated the Martell Economy. I felt the Hoare raiding attempts would be pointless. But when I woke up the next day I say the damage they did I was quite impressed.
TL;DR fuck the Saltpens, fuck Cracklaw, fuck Gulltown and especially fuck Tarth.
Hats off to @Theodore Floosevelt@jdarksun and @Assuran, you were all worthy foes. 10/10 would sent thousands to their own death of my own glory again.
Most of the moves I made as a knight I gave names.
At some point there was a ceasefire agreement, or at least that is what I was told. It might of all been a big misunderstanding in retrospect. Arryn attack the next turn, leading to us to do the same later in the game. It caused a lot of bad blood.
That one was my fault. I kind of implied that we were off to seek easier foes, but literally all our plans and forces were in place for a strike on Crackclaw, so it was pure misdirection. I just didn't want you to see it coming.
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
edited April 2020
Gardner was a fantastic trade partner, but no, they never fed us per se. I was really proud of a maneuver early on where Gardner and Lannister were fighting and we were allied with both. We traded 2 grain to Lannister for 2 cattle and then turned around and traded those 2 cattle to Gardner for 3 grain.
Gardner was swimming in grain so a couple of times we managed to trade 2 of something they needed for 3 grain, which was always nice.
Of course at one point we gave Arryn a grain free of charge to help them against Targaryen. They never did pay us back for that...
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Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that.
No, whether players recognize threats of the strategy of other player factions effectively does not matter and should not matter to a impartial host.
I get that you were frustrated, but that's the players' collective agency to win or lose.
Nah, an impartial host should work to ensure the game doesn't empty.
OK; then why didn't the hosts spike Tagaryen like the spiked Gardener and Stark?
Well, they did in Duskendale because we decided to dunk everything on Tarth, but the point was we were actually trying to have alliance shift, and we're being very heroic actually helping a nearly defeated house stay in the game against a Super Alliance. They could read my chats, and knew that I was very, very honest about the fact if either Martell or Gardener made a real peace with Durrandon and turned on the other, my House was happy to back to playing a normal game. The hosts understood we were basically forced into the position of fighting a power bloc with all our efforts, or not only would we lose, but we would watch another House suffer in an unfair game. Didn't you read the Hosts comments? They even made that clear. Even then, I was still looking for any chance to go fight Lannister or someone else, like Hoare or Arryn. I was praying for it. I was sooooo bored politically speaking. At least I did get a good secret drop at the end, ha ha.
Seriously, at any moment, you could have worked with Durrandon to attack Martell, and the Faith Revolt would not have happen. You chose that path, even while warned, (cows can be traded for, but that iron was sooooo critical), and paid for it.
Holy shit my dude. Be careful getting down from that horse, it's so fuckin' high I doubt you can see the ground.
Of course at one point we gave Arryn a grain free of charge to help them against Targaryen. They never did pay us back for that...
Honestly, if I could have, I would. But the moment that war ended, every round was a scramble to try and get the lumber we needed.
I would have allied with you near the end, but ended up having to make deals with Lannister and Hoare to keep that side of our border safe, and I never trusted Targaryen enough to relax about that either.
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
House Hoare and Targaryen have the single longest sequence of a stable alliance of any two houses for the entire game.
Did we? Ah, I suppose Martell and Gardener did have a break that one turn. How purple was your bloodline by the end game?
Bit of pot/kettle with the moralizing about how we should break our alliance eh Boom? :P
The difference was, mainly I didn't want my alliance. I wanted to invade the Trident for ages, but had to deal with the unbreakable Southerners and Northerners. The Northerners ended, and then I hoped I could play a normal, scheming house, but I still had to play the White Knight and deal with 2.5 Kingdoms curbstomping Durrandon. Seriously, if either of you had taken me up on betraying the other, I was happy to go attack Lannister, bide some time, then re-invade the Trident and Cracklaw and Gulltown. I was honest with House Gardener that I wouldn't mind if that meant them winning in the endgame if they just dumped all their armies on your west (this was before the Hoare raids, which I actually, briefly, warned against...but then realized the alliance probably wasn't going to break anyways.)
Seriously, my House chats are full of me ruing the fact I can't invade anyone around me because Martell and Gardener won't kill each other, even just a little.
The problem was, I could trust that you would go elsewhere, I couldn't trust that Durrandon would not just immediately attack. Plus, every time I tried to negotiate peace with Durrandon they wouldn't budge from "give us all our land back and go fuck yourself." as a negotiating position. Contrary to what it might have looked like, our war goal was to take Mistwood and one of either Blackhaven or Greenstone, but they would never accept peace on those terms. Sooo, without being able to secure peace on one front, we were never going to open a second war front against Gardner, such is life.
I'm guessing you mean except for the one time we had actually AGREED to peace and you broke the agreement and attacked anyways?
If it helps Floosevelt noted that I was moving from Machiavelli level evil to Cobra Commander for that manuever.
oh lord, this was the one where you told us about the peace you were both making AND breaking after i’d come up with my turn orders
Thunder Struck was followed up with Lighting Strike and Spearbreaker, both aimed at taking Tarth. At one time we actually reached an agreement with Martell, they would give up Tarth and we would stop our aggression. Martell did not honor the agreement. I don't know why. The end result was the war continued. My goals had always been the destruction of the enemy army in the field followed by conquest, as I saw how often land went back an forth when armies were left alive. Against Martell this was just not possible.
This one was the peace that was actually shot down by y’all, to my understanding. We were ready to relinquish Tarth in exchange for a formal alliance (having now two relics in your lands), but I got the word that the deal was off, and I think that was the last gasp there of peacetalks.
the turn on the receiving end of thunderstruck was rough as hell! I’d expected to lose an army or two in Tarth and/or Massey’s Hook, but it really fell apart when Durrandon cut off and destroyed our raiding party in Summerhall. I’d expected Gardner was still going to be battling for the territory with multiple armies and so would have some cover to pass through, because I was trying to raze the kingswood (or maneuver such that I could attack other territories and retreat into allied lannister lands) that very turn, since signs pointed to such a slugfest on our main border. But! It was not to be. Gardner moved south and my ass was caught out in the open to get chopped up by Durrandon’s battle maester. It’s hard to compare our conditionals to know exactly how it woulda gone if I’d made it through, but I think they really saved your bacon there.
that Gardner wasn’t there was totally on me for not communicating it them, but I was worried about them turning our flanking maneuver info over to y’all and so purposefully didn’t
There was one directly between Durrandon and Martell that was a turn or 2 before Targaryen rode in and was 1 or so territories of neutrality away from going through, and then the one brokered by Targaryen a few turns later that was essentially the same deal but Targaryen claiming they'd set up a peace deal
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I did like how there were advantages and disadvantages to going before or after someone.
I'm guessing you mean except for the one time we had actually AGREED to peace and you broke the agreement and attacked anyways?
To anyone going "you should trust the players to fight against the big leading powers".
Maybe they would have if anyone was actually doing that. After Stark took the western coast, they were definitively in the lead for at least a good three turns before anyone even glanced at them (and this isn't even getting into the fact that there one precisely one fight against Gardener/Martell before Targaryen came down). As well as the fact of yeah, there are quite a few factions to try to keep people in check, but when the power in the lead is literally on the other side of the continent (and also insulated on one side by a strong ally), how much can you actually do other than hope they'll ally with you for a chance to get secrets? Sure, you can try marching a few armies across the world to raid their territory, but you can't conquer anything and you have really high odds of those armies never coming back due to them having nowhere to retreat to (I lost two armies exactly this way when I sent them to raid Martell's territories in an attempt to weaken their resource base, as well as get a few of their armies to back off for a bit). One, that's a big resource investment, two, there's a strong chance someone on your borders is going to take advantage of you having half your armies somewhere else, and three, just because that's what you say you're doing doesn't mean that the people whose territory you're marching through have any reason to believe you're not going to mess them up along the way.
As for my feelings on House Gardener's comments... I mean, what do you expect? 90% of the time your armies were on the border of my territory, if not in it. The one time you actually had stuff elsewhere was when Lannister went at you, which changed immediately when they started throwing themselves against the Iron Islands again. You left your west flank mostly undefended the entire game, and from my understanding you kept snubbing the one House actually in a position to take advantage of that (thank god Hoare was never my enemy, the Teleporting Iron Fleet is terrifying). I mean, you spent pretty much the entire game from the point I joined turtling up and assisting Martell in their offensive. Yeah, the Faith Militant was a bit brutal, but you guys spent the entire game on one strategy with, as far as I could tell, very little plans for shifting that if bad things happened. It may suck, but it's not anyone elses fault for taking advantage of that.
As for my own experience... well, it sure was a thing. I came in a few turns in to replace the Durrandon maester after he was forced to bow out. Then there was that unfortunate issue where our Lord quit, and very shortly after that our Knight just... went silent (I'm still not entirely sure what happened there). So it was me and @H3Knuckles running things, and not long after that, the Lord Commander approached us with an offer just too juicy to refuse. In some ways, it was a fun experience (though to anyone who dreamed of running their own House for any reason, let me tell you: you really don't want to), but also extremely draining. To anyone who I dropped the ball for trades and such on in PMs, I do apologize, as trying to keep track of everything just burned me out some. I enjoyed working with everyone (even you Martell bastards), and I hope no one thought that any of my RP vitriol was actual anger.
If it helps Floosevelt noted that I was moving from Machiavelli level evil to Cobra Commander for that manuever.
Also admittedly by that point I had kind of moved on to the stance of "I know I'm not gonna win, but I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure you don't either".
So that idea of Gardener "one strategy" is sort of bunk. Also, like, the hosts decided to fuck with us because I guess we weren't fucking with enough people? We got our shit taken away and kept from us by the hosts despite the rules stating otherwise (free Support on Conquering Keeps with no ownership stickers). Sure, the Conquer part was a mistake and our hosts are human, but that whole "Faith Militant" thing was pretty bullshit.
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No, whether players recognize threats of the strategy of other player factions effectively does not matter and should not matter to a impartial host.
I get that you were frustrated, but that's the players' collective agency to win or lose.
Yeah, it sucks that they messed that up. If that rule had been done properly, things could have been very different. But as you said, the hosts are human, and sometimes things get missed.
As for the rest of it? As someone whose entire game was trying to fight off the coordinated assault of two Houses with about four territories worth of resources, I somewhat lack sympathy for both resource shortages and bad things happening.
That magnified everything else.
It was the reason I quit.
There was no reason to get mad at Matev for letting Summerhall burn after we submitted invalid orders based on his clarifications.
So I quit then. Because I got mad, not because that happened.
And I didn't think I would not get mad if any other minor issue occurred.
That situation sucked, but so too did the general positioning and the before-I-joined strategizing.
As did drawing shade from other kingdoms in the thread whilst we were losing (with not even the justification of 'we're RPing literal demons').
I should have been able to choke that all down, but I hyper-focused and took everything personally.
It wasn't worth playing, because I didn't know how to deal.
Or have fun.
And I'm sorry that I took the spot of someone else who might've been able to have fun.
I realised too late my mistake.
Like we know there was no person who's spot you stole. It wasn't filled. It might never have been, or filled with someone with the same issue.
I think you enabled a lot of fun for players by giving it a shot, while you were there.
Completely divorced from the game, we appreciate having you around Discrider.
I legit love your roleplay and attitude. You are a boon to the community even if you are feeling down right now.
We love ya!
Nah, an impartial host should work to ensure the game doesn't empty.
OK; then why didn't the hosts spike Tagaryen like the spiked Gardener and Stark?
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I'd have to look back to understand the game state, and wouldn't know anyway.
I'm fairly sure the endgame timer started fairly soon after the Militants arose though, so maybe the hosts moved from poking people to just ending the game?
Well, they did in Duskendale because we decided to dunk everything on Tarth, but the point was we were actually trying to have alliance shift, and we're being very heroic actually helping a nearly defeated house stay in the game against a Super Alliance. They could read my chats, and knew that I was very, very honest about the fact if either Martell or Gardener made a real peace with Durrandon and turned on the other, my House was happy to back to playing a normal game. The hosts understood we were basically forced into the position of fighting a power bloc with all our efforts, or not only would we lose, but we would watch another House suffer in an unfair game. Didn't you read the Hosts comments? They even made that clear. Even then, I was still looking for any chance to go fight Lannister or someone else, like Hoare or Arryn. I was praying for it. I was sooooo bored politically speaking. At least I did get a good secret drop at the end, ha ha.
Seriously, at any moment, you could have worked with Durrandon to attack Martell, and the Faith Revolt would not have happen. You chose that path, even while warned, (cows can be traded for, but that iron was sooooo critical), and paid for it.
It may seem like that, but there was one next to Martell that didn't do it!
Ah, I wanted you guys to fight Martell, lol. Plenty of cows and iron there. Then I could go fight Durrandon!
There's a lot of resentment here because the GMs "interfered" with the game. Well, here's the thing: they have to. That's part of what running a game means. A GM isn't there to just be this robot who crunches numbers and then declares the results. If you're running a game, that means looking at the situation, reading the players, figuring out what's going on, and then making choices about what would be best for the game. There was a very clear and well-reasoned post (from Austin, I believe) that laid out why the super-alliances were a bad thing. It made the game stagnant and basically prevented any significant changes from occurring. Stark and Arryn actually had plans to become a northern Union (the fact that I very much would have stabbed them in the back was irrelevant, because I hadn't told anyone, not even my own house) and we agreed that while we weren't going to just end cooperation from one turn to the next, we also realised the downside of a game where the victor is decided in more or less the first five turns.
The whole notion of an impartial GM is a flawed one, because it is their job to keep things interesting, and that means interfering. If you're running an RPG game and the party spends a few sessions just sitting around and doing nothing of note because they're comfortable, then you drop something on them to get the story rolling again. So when the momentum of this game stalled because everything became about somehow breaking the northern and southern alliances, there was no choice but to intervene.
For our own part, we Arryn took too long to realise that protracted warfare on behalf of another kingdom wasn't the way to go, and the result was that we dropped in power from almost-top of the order to almost-bottom. In our case, this happened because alliances shifted and we got hammered. Then we spent the rest of the game just trying to get everyone to ignore us while we rebuilt and readied for a final strike, which was fucked up by one typo in army orders that nobody in the house noticed, and then me actually paying our debt to the Starks instead of betraying them outright. In my defense, they looked ready to invade and I really thought they would do it regardless.
But the alliances down south never shifted.
Theoretically, yes, the game can balance itself. But it just didn't happen here. Once we had a superpower in the north and south, they became almost untouchable. We weren't going to attack the Starks because the moment we did that, Hoare and Targaryen could hit us with impunity again. The reason that only happened in the last two turns as a united attack was because it took until then to actually agree to work together on it. Even then I didn't trust them fully (rightfully so!) and it was only feasible because our armies were on opposite sides of the border. In the mid-game, it would take a collaboration by four or five central houses to properly hurt one of the "polar" superpowers, and try getting us to actually trust each other long enough to do that.
Hell, for our part, House Arryn was constantly looking for and implementing ways to hurt our allies too and keep them in check. We denied resources to the Starks, we prevented army actions to the Targaryens (you're welcome, Floosevelt), and we tried to dig up dirt on anyone we could, even if that almost never worked. Seriously, the citadel dice hated our guts. At no point did we just blindly help anyone. Alliances? Sure. But if you really trusted that an alliance with us meant we weren't going to do what we could to screw you over too, you were dead wrong.
The TLDR of all of this is that if the GMs hadn't intervened, the game would have become a lost cause for the central kingdoms pretty quickly. There's a load of events in the rulebook for this very reason. You'd have seen an exodus of central kingdom players pretty soon.
And while there are certainly parts of this that should be refined and reworked if it gets run again, the interventions to prevent super-blocs were right. And I say this as one of the houses which initially suffered from changing strategies.
That's my final piece on this. Matev and Austin did a fantastic job as far as I'm concerned. Now I'm going to keep amusing myself with stupid jokes about House Allpakka and basking in the fact that for a glorious short while, we came back from the brink of disaster to lead the scoreboard.
On some positive notes:
There was a ton of player interaction. Like everyday multiple pages of dialogue, I had several long running PMs. The Starks had something like 800 posts in their house PMs alone and we used the proboards to host our action logs.
An engaging an interesting combat system. Nobody is saying the system didn't give players options, there was a lot to think and strategize about every turn and some neat options to throw some chaos out there.
RPing was maintained through out the game. Most of the forum stuff I have played about 1/4 actually interact with the story element and that usually gets stripped away to nothing after a few days when everything becomes stark game theory discussion.
Buried in the lands of The Trident (Harrenhal), controlled by House Hoare.
Gizzy: First, I visit the Hoare office of the Maestor's to inquire the location of the various tombs located within this lands boarders. I request a map with the locations marked, and also research rumors about which tombs are haunted to narrow down the location. I learn that there are rumors of thousands of captives who have died while laboring build the castle walls of Harrenhal.
I'm not quite sure how to deal with ghosts, but I am fully prepared to put these muscles to work heaving lids off stone caskets and prying some tombs open. I set off in the morning to explore each tomb, hoping ghosts are not as active in the daylight hours. I come prepared with a latern, iron chisel, sledgehammer, and a shovel. I painstaking chisel each coffer lid open and wield my sledgehammer to break open any that are stuck in search of this relic. I reach one casket where my chisel proves worthless, my sledgehammer has dulled, so I punch and burst through the stone with my bear hands. BEAR HANDS FULL OF BRAWN!
Austin: You shatter the caskets, and throw open the tombs. Your bulk ripping into stone with a sound of destruction that scares off any ghastly spirits who might be hanging around. Finally, when you have ripped apart the last stone structure, you take inventory amongst the shards of stone left in your wake.
Unfortunately, you haven't found the relic, likely due to the forgetful bankers mistakenly giving you the complete wrong location.
As you turn to leave, disappointed and sweat covered, you see the glint of gold in your peripheral. Brushing aside a face that was likely the bust of someone's grandfather, you find a single piece of gold sticking out of a pouch. Pocketing it, you open the pouch to find a written note inside, it's contents describing a hidden treasure, likely buried alongside some relative as a keepsake without it's previous owner knowing it's true worth.
You have failed your Delve (7-9). You gain 1 gold, and a new relic location card: Buried in the lands of Blackhaven, controlled by House Durrandon
Buried in the lands of Saltshore, controlled by House Martell.
Still, you won't be dissuaded, and you seek out the Squishers. You find what you can only assume they would call a camp on the edges of the Summer Sea. You must find your relic, but you know it won't be easy to get there.
Gizzy: I wait until nightfall to approach the camp, progressing stealthfully on the soft sand and remaining downwind of the camp sight. Watching carefully I spot two figures I assume to be look-outs and am surprised by how human they appear from this distance. Tightening the grip on my longsword I creep closer until I can make out the squisher's sharp teeth and webbed hands.
One walks near my location behind a pile of driftwood. I attempt to catch him off guard from behind and slit his neck before he can call out. However in my haste I crack a piece of the driftwood alerting the second lookout who come running in my direction. I use my pure strength to hoist up the now dead fish man and throw him at his companion.
Suddenly I am surrounded by fish monsters! Brandishing my sword I thrust it straight into the nearest enemy then quickly transition to a reverse grip in order to slash through the pale neck of the angry fishman. I flip backwards and holding the sword in one hand, pick up a boulder with my MIGHTY BRUTE STRENGTH in the other hand and perform a combo of bashing in one guy's head with the rock while simultaneously stabbing another foe behind me.
Will Gizzy defeat all the fishmen and find the relic!?
Austin: You are strong, and you are quick. The monsters get cut down as quickly as they engage you. But they keep coming. You wonder, in the midst of battle, how many of them there are, and if you should have scouted longer. The thoughts are lost in the ferocity of battle, as you cleave down another pair. Your limbs are getting tired, you feel the adrenaline coursing through your body but know that it won't last forever.
And then it happens. As you go to strike another one, their claw slips through your defense and rakes across your center. You feel the pain and gasp even as you cut the him down. You look down and see your blood as your arm instinctively cradles your gut. You have no choice but to flee. You stagger back to the city, seeking out a healer to prevent your imminent demise. The relic is out of reach, and you know that you aren't capable of getting to it while the Squishers still guard it.
You fail the Delve (6-). You must choose whether you will lose 2 gold, or lose the relic location card.
Buried in the lands of Blackhaven, controlled by House Durrandon.
Blackhaven, a farming land filled mostly with cattle and the folks that raise them. You find yourself here after the last text you had found indicated that there should be a history of a relic still somewhere in this territory. Your search begins in the only major city here, Maesters and librarians open to helping you (for the right price, of course).
You find a lead, however, in a name. Dalran Stokeworth. Rumor becomes whispers, whispers become back alley dealings of someone who knows someone, until you finally meet someone in an inn who is able to give you a location. Dalran is a scholor, located in the Monastery. But, they caution, he is a recluse who is unlikely to speak to outsiders.
Still, you head off towards the Monastery, seeking audience. You must have piqued his curiosity, as he agrees to see you, but as you enter, you can tell from his demeanor that he isn't in a giving mood.
"I've heard that you've been seeking me, which means you want the knowledge of what I know how to find. I could consider giving that to you, but it comes at a price..."
((I will leave it to you to identify what great price he asks you to pay, and how you accomplish paying it))
Gizzy: Well met learn-ed scholar. I have access to just the manuscripts you seek. As you well know the people of the Vale serve the Seven, but there are sects that still follow the Old Gods of the Forest. My Maester recently unearthed a text that appears to detail information about certain powerful nature spirits. This manuscript is currently in a rough state and may take some time to restore and translate some of the pages and ensure its protection for travel. I am sure that I can convince my Maester to make this trade for your help in retrieving this relic I seek.
- If Dalran Strokeworth agrees to this trade, I make my way back to the Vale and recount the information to my Maester.
“But we don’t have such a book in our library! And if we did, we would never part with such a valuable possession!”
“Oh ho – but see that’s where I’ve bought us some time in the name of restoration. You and I are going to write this manuscript, weather its appearance appropriately, and we’ll fool this old recluse! And have a good laugh as the stories we created become accepted as truth!”
- I deliver the fake manuscript to Dalran Stokeworth USING MY BRAINS TO TRICK HIM!
Austin: Dalran, in his greed and eagerness, does a poor job of validating the manuscript you provide to him. He glances at it with unabashedly hungry eyes and reaches behind himself to hand you a parchment.
Knowing you could have Beene adult tricked as well, you decide to take the risk and not open it until you are far enough away.
And so, sitting in an inn on your way back to your House seat, you open the dusty parchment casing to reveal it’s secrets.
You have succeeded in your Delve (By spending 1 gold). You have found the ability to make Wildfire.
Wildfire: Once per round, you may grant one of your armies Support . If you roll a 6 or lower for that army’s action, it is disbanded.
Buried in the lands of Massey's Hook, controlled by House Targaryen
You travel to Massey's Hook, a large farming territory on the east cost of Westeros. There have been reports that reached your ears of a farmer who had come into ownership of something extravagent, and from the context you received, it certainly sounded like the relic you were after.
As you approach his homestead, you note that nothing really looks out of the ordinary. You weren't sure what you expected, but a normal farmhouse wasn't it. You rap on the door, and slowly a man approaches. As he opens the door you cordially greet him and he returns the favor. Again, nothing seems out of the ordinary, so you try an honest approach and explain the rumors.
He nods, then motions you inside, leading you to a room in the back of the house. Inside the room, in the center on a wooden pedestal sits the relic you are after. Surrounding it, various sigils and tapestries, depicting the Faith of the Seven. The farmer explains that his wife had recently died, and as he was burying her, he found the relic in the burial spot. Taking it as a sign, he brought it in here and now prays to the Seven through it each night. He seems very attached to the relic, so how can you get your hands on it?
Gizzy: I offer the farmer my condolences for his wife, and agree that this relic is surely a sign from the Seven, specifically the Mother and a gift from his late wife. I explain that what the relic represents is exactly my purpose in traveling to the village, to bestow him with blessings of prosperity to elevate his position in life and invigorate his farm. I offer a large sum of money in exchange for the relic that should let him live out the remainder of his days comfortably. His prayers have been heard and the relic itself wasn’t the blessing – the blessing is the wealth and prosperity the relic has brought to the farmer. Hopefully the farmer agrees with my REASONING in this matter and accepts my generous offer.
Austin: The farmer pauses, considering your words. You can see the fight on his face, but then he looks at a scarf draped on the pedestal, clearly an item of his wife's. The wind blows and it sways back and forth. His eyes follow it intently, and his face softens.
"You're right." he says . "This isn't how she'd want to be remembered, she'd want me to be happy and help others."
He grabs the shining candle off the pedestal carefully, handing it over to you. You exchange it for a bag of gold and a promise of more to come.
You have succeeded at your Delve. You have received the following relic:
Glass Candle - Gain a +1 to Forge a Link rolls. If you have the Valyrian Steel Maester link, instead gain +1 to all rolls made at the Citadel Table
Island Name: Felinefine
I think there was just a lot of confusion on expectations, the warnings were vague, combined with we all have a silo'd view and were unaware how hopeless some folks felt. So I can see how it seemed to come out of the blue to be suddenly "punished for winning."
Island Name: Felinefine
Steam: Chagrin LoL: Bonhomie
I definitely agree with what gizzy said about warnings, though, and add: If DMs actually want something to happen (to break up a power bloc in this case), I'd recommend they just do it. it can be backed up in-fiction, and by the events that are in the GMs toolbox right out of the box. If you say that you're going to inflict negative events, though, then you're asking the teams to instead weigh the negative impact of the event against the benefit of the alliance and decide if it’s worth it in the end. which is a fine route--but not if the survival of the alliance is going to be considered a failure of the events, or a failure of the players to respond appropriately
(also just in our specific case: the faith militant was a bit of a bust, I think, cause it inspired even more cooperation between us. another joint threat along our shared border that doesn't negotiate with our lords wasn’t really the ticket if that was the intended result)
i had a lot more written earlier, but I’ll try and be somewhat brief, cause I don’t want to just come across as overly defensive of our house’s play decisions. to be honest it just makes me a bit melancholy to look back on such a thoroughly engrossing time, when now it feels like the takeaway from several other players is that we weren't considerate enough to blow off our foot in the middle of a game we were doing well at (which, although it has a GM i trust to make rulings and shake things up, is not d&d and actually has winners and a scoreboard). there were enough variables and unknowns heading into this pbp translation of a game with a slighty wonky rulebook as-is that there's no way to prevent 33 people handling it all & expecting something different, that’s just how it is, I know. And regarding the corrective action, I think if the majority of the players enjoyed the events, then it was absolutely the right call. but frankly, i don't think the events (and specifically the dead and the faith) had much to do with shaking up the game. it felt more to me that it was the emergence of the central alliance that did that, which was an actual unification by the players, using the tools at their disposal. Did it also calcify the southern alliance? apparently, but that wasn’t the foregone conclusion some are treating it as. I wasn’t able to read the room like our GMs could, and so trust the call needed to be made in the end, to salvage the game. but when I look at the arc of the game (ignorant of anything that actually happened in lord PMs) i don’t see a GM fiat sabotaging the winners, I see a bunch of lords (and, it turns out, vengeful maesters) who finally figured out how to use the tools at their disposal to attack those in the lead
Operation Desalination (planed strike at Hoare)
Operation Erosion (Planned strike at Arryn)
Operation Lion Tamer (Planed strike at Lannister)
Operation Stag Hunter (Planed strike at Durrandon)
At the start of the game, I gave a bunch of plans to my lord and assessed the advantages, risks, goals and potential consequences of each. We made the mistake of trying for The Trident on turn one, got beat badly and constantly had to keep and eye on Hoare.
We could not get Hoare to peace out with use, even as the shed land to Stark. And the Arryn attacked us, leading to what I call the Northern War. At some point there was a ceasefire agreement, or at least that is what I was told. It might of all been a big misunderstanding in retrospect. Arryn attack the next turn, leading to us to do the same later in the game. It caused a lot of bad blood.
Operation Wing Clipper (because of Arryn's falcon)
Operation Counter Punch (A planned defensive move to trap Arryn armies, failed miserably when Arryn took Cracklaw)
Operation Ratwing (Plan to take Gulltown, a long time goal of mine)
That's all I remember of that war, Arryn asked for peace once we had 5 armies and good position. At the time I wanted to push for more land, but in retrospect the fact that we peaced out on even terms having trading one province for one province helped a lot. It was perhaps even beneficial to them, they got wood they needed and we got grain we needed. They also got a fort right next to our capital, something that always worried me.
Oh, at one point during this @AustinP0027 started yelling at us in Discord because we had so many armies in the Saltpans that he was having trouble making the map.
The next plan was Operation Game Ranger, our plan to ride south and give Durrandon some breathing room against Gardener and Martell. It worked out pretty will. The idea was to move in, kill some armies, take some land, make a ceasefire between the three southern houses so Durrandon could breath (we really felt bad one player was fighting two full houses). This is what I would consider to be the
But then Martell took Tarth, which I had earlier identified as a "red line" because it would allow Martell to spawn armies right next to our lands. The biggest advantage we had against Martell was their long supply lines, while ours were short. We might not have the resources of Martell, but in a defensive war we could Cut Off and make them march up again from Mistwood while ours could be mustered and move into battle in the same turn. But if they had Tarth, they would have more resources and equal supply lines. It was also right next to two of our rich provinces.
I came up with Operation Thunder Struck (cause fighting in the Stormlands). The plan was to take Tarth, use it to anchor our south and then move to the easy targets in Lannister lands. This is what I would consider to the be start of The Southern War, as the goals changed from keeping Durrandon alive in order to keep the buffer between us and Martell to outright fighting Martell and taking their land. Sadly, it turned into a bloody slog.
Thunder Struck was followed up with Lighting Strike and Spearbreaker, both aimed at taking Tarth. At one time we actually reached an agreement with Martell, they would give up Tarth and we would stop our aggression. Martell did not honor the agreement. I don't know why. The end result was the war continued. My goals had always been the destruction of the enemy army in the field followed by conquest, as I saw how often land went back an forth when armies were left alive. Against Martell this was just not possible.
After Hoare raided Gardener, Martell and Gardener teamed up to raid us. I really though that my failure to prevent that would cost us the game. I spent the last few turns trying to undo the damage. There were no glorious names for the operations in our own land, it was just a desperate attempt to stop the damage. We breifly work with Arryn at this time, as they would affraid that the Martells would burn Gulltown and we wanted to protect Satlpens. I had forgotten about Heir bonus since ours was gone and Martell was able to raise Saltpens regardless.
So that's a brief history of the Targaryans at war. If you are wondering how we cooperated with other houses, we really didn't. There were times where we gave support actions to Durrandon or Hoare, and when we were not officially allied with Durrandon we had to be careful with moves as not to kill each others armies. But Durrandon (@Allanon Kisigar) was very independently minded, there were times I tried to get them to attack somewhere but they always had their own goals. Hoare (@Bendery It Like Beckham) approached us about attacking Gardener, and even then we didnt know what they were planing. At the time I felt Gardener must of been feeding reasources to Martell, I think I really underestimated the Martell Economy. I felt the Hoare raiding attempts would be pointless. But when I woke up the next day I say the damage they did I was quite impressed.
TL;DR fuck the Saltpens, fuck Cracklaw, fuck Gulltown and especially fuck Tarth.
Hats off to @Theodore Floosevelt @jdarksun and @Assuran, you were all worthy foes. 10/10 would sent thousands to their own death of my own glory again.
That one was my fault. I kind of implied that we were off to seek easier foes, but literally all our plans and forces were in place for a strike on Crackclaw, so it was pure misdirection. I just didn't want you to see it coming.
Gardner was swimming in grain so a couple of times we managed to trade 2 of something they needed for 3 grain, which was always nice.
Of course at one point we gave Arryn a grain free of charge to help them against Targaryen. They never did pay us back for that...
Near the end of the game, the Central Alliance were pretty open regarding gifts and donations between our aligned houses.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Honestly, if I could have, I would. But the moment that war ended, every round was a scramble to try and get the lumber we needed.
I would have allied with you near the end, but ended up having to make deals with Lannister and Hoare to keep that side of our border safe, and I never trusted Targaryen enough to relax about that either.
oh lord, this was the one where you told us about the peace you were both making AND breaking after i’d come up with my turn orders
This one was the peace that was actually shot down by y’all, to my understanding. We were ready to relinquish Tarth in exchange for a formal alliance (having now two relics in your lands), but I got the word that the deal was off, and I think that was the last gasp there of peacetalks.
the turn on the receiving end of thunderstruck was rough as hell! I’d expected to lose an army or two in Tarth and/or Massey’s Hook, but it really fell apart when Durrandon cut off and destroyed our raiding party in Summerhall. I’d expected Gardner was still going to be battling for the territory with multiple armies and so would have some cover to pass through, because I was trying to raze the kingswood (or maneuver such that I could attack other territories and retreat into allied lannister lands) that very turn, since signs pointed to such a slugfest on our main border. But! It was not to be. Gardner moved south and my ass was caught out in the open to get chopped up by Durrandon’s battle maester. It’s hard to compare our conditionals to know exactly how it woulda gone if I’d made it through, but I think they really saved your bacon there.
that Gardner wasn’t there was totally on me for not communicating it them, but I was worried about them turning our flanking maneuver info over to y’all and so purposefully didn’t