Right, so JK Rowling’s disgusting transphobic bullshit aside, does Nintendo have anything to do with Smash tournaments other than having made the game? I’m certain they can’t be too happy about their games being associated with all of this, considering their family friendly image.
They sort of hate their games being used for tournaments, they push that smash products are meant for everyone to enjoy at home together. Theres theory that a previous game involved a 'trip' mechanism where your character could just trip over themselves when moving at any time, to stifle competitive high level play.(Imagine in street fighter you go to do a move, and sometimes your character just falls over instead)
Nintendo went on a campaign of DMCA'ing any video content of their games being put online, and forced a program where you have to have them take the monetized money from your content, and then they pay you from that. They used this system to lock out tournament streaming and tried to do takedowns on events that would stream smash. Nintendo is about 2 decades behind when it comes to the internet and highly skeptical of it. In a few cases they've actively hampered features to make consumers not want to engage with online in their products.
Given how toxic literally all fighting game communities seem to be, I'm not surprised that Nintendo wants to shut down the scene as much as possible. The only "good" stories I've ever heard come from that particular subset of gamer chuds is usually related to incredible displays of technical skill versus incredible displays of humanity.
It's not just fighting games. It's literally the entire esports scene. These "gaming houses" are ubiquitous in the esports scene where groups of underaged young people, usually men, are sharing a house/mansion together that is being bankrolled by their management - who is also just a slightly more grown up version of them. It's a situation that is just completely sketchy and should seriously be looked into.
Stivitybobo and Giantwaffle, both of which have attended various GDQ charity events in the past, have been accused of raping a women back in 2014 at SGDQ. You can find the tweets on the speedruns reddit. They are pretty fucking bad. Apparently the two defended themselves by saying they thought she was into it. Then they, along with her husband, convinced her to tell the community at large that she just cheated. Which for a community of games led the exact kind of abuse you would expect. I have seen both of them on stage at GDQ so this is the first video game related one that actually hits close to home for me. Don't really do competitive games. Would really hope for some jail time out of this for those two.
Yeah, that was actually posted a few posts up. Beyond the awful situation she describes, I was horrified by her description of her husband's reaction.
I thought I read far enough back but maybe I missed it. Either way, yeah what a fucking terrible husband. Throw him on the pile with the other two.
Stivitybobo and Giantwaffle, both of which have attended various GDQ charity events in the past, have been accused of raping a women back in 2014 at SGDQ. You can find the tweets on the speedruns reddit. They are pretty fucking bad. Apparently the two defended themselves by saying they thought she was into it. Then they, along with her husband, convinced her to tell the community at large that she just cheated. Which for a community of games led the exact kind of abuse you would expect. I have seen both of them on stage at GDQ so this is the first video game related one that actually hits close to home for me. Don't really do competitive games. Would really hope for some jail time out of this for those two.
The whole thing is weird and fucked up. It seems like her husband was as ashamed as she was when he had no right to be. I don't think he participated in the assault having read her account twice to be sure I didn't miss anything. He was intimidated into silence by the assaulters and seems deeply ashamed he couldn't stick up for his wife.
I can't judge him for that. He was 19 and by all accounts not an adult or confident enough to speak up. What he did was wrong. It was essentially blackmail using his wife's rape as collateral. I can understand how you would want to protect someone and the only way you feel like you can is to keep them "safe" from the internet mob.
She was raped, they were threatened and her husband did a wrong thing. I don't think it makes him a participant in the assault, but it makes him very wrong in his response.
The only competitive scene that Nintendo seems to have an indirect hand in is Pokemon, and even that isn't anything like Activision.
As in all things, Nintendo lags behind the industry. Or probably more accurate, it ignores the industry and all its trend chasing and does its own thing.
Look at the shit going on right now. Can you really call it lagging the industry? It seems like Nintendo is leading the industry in understanding that it wants nothing to do with this shit. They briefly imagined what being involved with their own esports scene would look like, thought of the people involved there and ran as fast as they could.
I really can’t blame Nintendo at all. All these underage incidents in the Smash community make it very easy for me to understand why they’re keeping the online interaction systems in their games convoluted and without built-in voice chat. There’s arguments to be had that there could be better ways to do it, but at the same time Nintendo’s choices certainly prevent most means a predator could hurt people through in-game interactions compared to just about any other online system out there.
As a gamer I can be frustrated, as a parent it's a godsend to have a curated and tightly controlled platform that I don't have to micromanage to make sure my children aren't inadvertently exposed to some alt-right bigot "asking questions" and getting their hooks in (I'm looking at you YouTube).
Right, so JK Rowling’s disgusting transphobic bullshit aside, does Nintendo have anything to do with Smash tournaments other than having made the game? I’m certain they can’t be too happy about their games being associated with all of this, considering their family friendly image.
They sort of hate their games being used for tournaments, they push that smash products are meant for everyone to enjoy at home together. Theres theory that a previous game involved a 'trip' mechanism where your character could just trip over themselves when moving at any time, to stifle competitive high level play.(Imagine in street fighter you go to do a move, and sometimes your character just falls over instead)
Nintendo went on a campaign of DMCA'ing any video content of their games being put online, and forced a program where you have to have them take the monetized money from your content, and then they pay you from that. They used this system to lock out tournament streaming and tried to do takedowns on events that would stream smash. Nintendo is about 2 decades behind when it comes to the internet and highly skeptical of it. In a few cases they've actively hampered features to make consumers not want to engage with online in their products.
Given how toxic literally all fighting game communities seem to be, I'm not surprised that Nintendo wants to shut down the scene as much as possible. The only "good" stories I've ever heard come from that particular subset of gamer chuds is usually related to incredible displays of technical skill versus incredible displays of humanity.
the fgc broadly is actually quite an interesting one - for various reasons certain kinds of bigotry are much less common, eg conventional racism, and there has been a surprisingly quick turnaround in some parts of it on trans issues (albeit incomplete...)
the rep for savagery is often justified but you are vastly more likely to encounter casual racism/transphobia in a generic online fps than an sf5 tournament
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SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
The 19 year old, deeply religiously indoctrinated into Mormonism type.
Judging by Tolki's account, they're still together.
Yeah, I came across her husband's twitter account, and he had simply retweeted her story and added "Believe women" so I suppose they've been sorting through the whole mess together.
Right, so JK Rowling’s disgusting transphobic bullshit aside, does Nintendo have anything to do with Smash tournaments other than having made the game? I’m certain they can’t be too happy about their games being associated with all of this, considering their family friendly image.
They sort of hate their games being used for tournaments, they push that smash products are meant for everyone to enjoy at home together. Theres theory that a previous game involved a 'trip' mechanism where your character could just trip over themselves when moving at any time, to stifle competitive high level play.(Imagine in street fighter you go to do a move, and sometimes your character just falls over instead)
Nintendo went on a campaign of DMCA'ing any video content of their games being put online, and forced a program where you have to have them take the monetized money from your content, and then they pay you from that. They used this system to lock out tournament streaming and tried to do takedowns on events that would stream smash. Nintendo is about 2 decades behind when it comes to the internet and highly skeptical of it. In a few cases they've actively hampered features to make consumers not want to engage with online in their products.
Given how toxic literally all fighting game communities seem to be, I'm not surprised that Nintendo wants to shut down the scene as much as possible. The only "good" stories I've ever heard come from that particular subset of gamer chuds is usually related to incredible displays of technical skill versus incredible displays of humanity.
the fgc broadly is actually quite an interesting one - for various reasons certain kinds of bigotry are much less common, eg conventional racism, and there has been a surprisingly quick turnaround in some parts of it on trans issues (albeit incomplete...)
the rep for savagery is often justified but you are vastly more likely to encounter casual racism/transphobia in a generic online fps than an sf5 tournament
This has not been my experience at all. What are you basing that observation on?
The 19 year old, deeply religiously indoctrinated into Mormonism type.
Judging by Tolki's account, they're still together.
Yeah, I came across her husband's twitter account, and he had simply retweeted her story and added "Believe women" so I suppose they've been sorting through the whole mess together.
I honestly don't know how. Like what he did to me is a betrayal that I can't even begin to surmise. Just reading about it sends me into a wanting to smash shit rage.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The 19 year old, deeply religiously indoctrinated into Mormonism type.
Judging by Tolki's account, they're still together.
Yeah, I came across her husband's twitter account, and he had simply retweeted her story and added "Believe women" so I suppose they've been sorting through the whole mess together.
I honestly don't know how. Like what he did to me is a betrayal that I can't even begin to surmise. Just reading about it sends me into a wanting to smash shit rage.
Context, basically. He probably assumed she was stupid, got drunk and got it on deliberately to cheat on him, because that's the story he was told. And partially because of her upbringing I think she believed it too at least for a while. I don't doubt they've had some...serious issues since, but I'm not going to fault anyone for their choice to stay or not here. I'll fault the hell out of him for A. leaving when he said he wouldn't and B. trusting his asshole rapist friends over his partner though.
Where is she on the indoctrination scale? Couples who are both sufficiently dyed in wool consider divorce a non-option and "work through" some pretty incredible stuff. From what I've seen in my family they work through it about every six months until one of them finally dies.
Where is she on the indoctrination scale? Couples who are both sufficiently dyed in wool consider divorce a non-option and "work through" some pretty incredible stuff. From what I've seen in my family they work through it about every six months until one of them finally dies.
Apparently they were both really deep into the church. Not sure how true that is anymore.
JK Rowling arguably has more “free speech” than anyone in the known universe. She can post whatever the fuck she wants on her Pottermore site and get 10 trillion readers without even going through well-established publication channels (I’m not saying that is a bad thing, just stating facts). She and everyone else can fuck right off with their me me me me me free speech fragility. Free speech doesn’t mean people don’t get to lambaste you for being an asshole or for allying with a group of assholes (TERFs). God I’m angry.
People should really switch to using the acronym Fascist-Appropriating Radical Transphobes (FARTs)
As funny as that would be, TERF is just about the most apt acronym known to humanity. It's a group that has staked out a claim on a patch of ideological turf and won't let anybody else in. I don't believe in a god, but sometimes bits of magical happenstance like this perfect acronym make me doubt.
Also, it's not that this is somehow a 'gaming problem'. This is a humanity problem.
People abuse power for their own gains everywhere, to the detriment and suffering of others.
You'll find this everywhere you look, once you look.
its not specific to gaming, but Gaming uniquely is a mega toxic environment where sexism flourishes and is nurtured by gamers. Like there was a tweet about people acting gross in an mmo from a female streamer and most of the replies were from Men telling her she can't be offended because reasons.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
I think for me the worse aspect is how insular and protective gaming gets. You call out someone for being a creepy fuck and you have a bunch of people defending the creepy behavior because reasons.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Any sort of sportsmanship in sports is the result of tons of work from various groups to make it so they aren't shit, and even then there is still a ton of stuff like thinking players who complain about another player punching them being called a pussy because that is just part of the game bro.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
I'll also fully admit I know the gaming community better than I do like the sports community. So my perception is molded by my disgust at routine behaviors I witness in my community and the silence from that community regarding those behaviors.
Like all these "oh my god this streamer was a creeper/rapist" things have another gross element that a lot of those communities knew about these guys, did stuff to distance their events from these guys but didn't warn the outside community at large.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
'Sportsmanship' is like 'respect' in that the people who actually believe it exists tend only to bestow it on people they deem worthy, which never seems to include women, except in the case of other women.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
I'll also fully admit I know the gaming community better than I do like the sports community. So my perception is molded by my disgust at routine behaviors I witness in my community and the silence from that community regarding those behaviors.
Like all these "oh my god this streamer was a creeper/rapist" things have another gross element that a lot of those communities knew about these guys, did stuff to distance their events from these guys but didn't warn the outside community at large.
Yeah, and that's exactly the same with sports. Talented players are taught that their communities value them over the women they harm, so they continue doing it, and their communities shield them.
If anything it's MUCH more difficult to deliver meaningful consequences on a valuable athlete than it is a prominent streamer or MMO-person or whatever, because the former often has more money tied up in their presence and status, and the available market for the latter is MUCH more saturated. To sponsors/advertisers, and even viewers, one is usually WAY easier to replace than the other.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
Not sure what thus has to do with the idea of sportsmanship honestly. But regardless, like a lot of things it's both variable and getting better over time. There's lots of growth in girl's sports from my experience and girls participating in boy's sports at lower age levels has been a thing for quite awhile now, though generally not at high numbers. Most of the discouragement I saw and heard about from women while participating in women's sports was directed at them by their own families frankly and not by their fellow players or coaches or whatnot.
Gaming definitely has a toxic community, which is helped not at all by the fact that any organization that attempts to cultivate an e-sports product has done so while attempting to directly copy the sports community in every way it can manage. They treat their members like athletes, so they start acting like it, and their fans respond in-kind.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
Not sure what thus has to do with the idea of sportsmanship honestly. But regardless, like a lot of things it's both variable and getting better over time. There's lots of growth in girl's sports from my experience and girls participating in boy's sports at lower age levels has been a thing for quite awhile now, though generally not at high numbers. Most of the discouragement I saw and heard about from women while participating in women's sports was directed at them by their own families frankly and not by their fellow players or coaches or whatnot.
Because saying 'the sports community is less toxic than the video game community because of 'sportsmanship'' in the scope of a #MeToo thread is pretty fucking vile, considering that women have historically never been the recipients of this gift in either.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
Not sure what thus has to do with the idea of sportsmanship honestly. But regardless, like a lot of things it's both variable and getting better over time. There's lots of growth in girl's sports from my experience and girls participating in boy's sports at lower age levels has been a thing for quite awhile now, though generally not at high numbers. Most of the discouragement I saw and heard about from women while participating in women's sports was directed at them by their own families frankly and not by their fellow players or coaches or whatnot.
Because saying 'the sports community is less toxic than the video game community because of 'sportsmanship'' in the scope of a #MeToo thread is pretty fucking vile, considering that women have historically never been the recipients of this gift in either.
Sportsmanship and a lack of sexism are not really the same thing though. It's different parallel concepts of proper behaviour that deal with different things. The video game esports thing imo is basically all the issue you see in sports but with extra issues on top of that, some that end up related to #MeToo or the like and some not, because of the lack of any sort of culture of sportsmanship to dictate behaviour.
Gaming definitely has a toxic community, which is helped not at all by the fact that any organization that attempts to cultivate an e-sports product has done so while attempting to directly copy the sports community in every way it can manage. They treat their members like athletes, so they start acting like it, and their fans respond in-kind.
Not to mention that there was a lot of selling of the idea that having the disposable income to spend on all this shit makes you a oppressed minority. Think Revenge of the Nerds and the like. When actual oppressed minorities told the gamers "no, you aren't, fuck you" they went apeshit. There's a reason why so many employees go on rants saying how much they hate this playerbase.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
Not sure what thus has to do with the idea of sportsmanship honestly. But regardless, like a lot of things it's both variable and getting better over time. There's lots of growth in girl's sports from my experience and girls participating in boy's sports at lower age levels has been a thing for quite awhile now, though generally not at high numbers. Most of the discouragement I saw and heard about from women while participating in women's sports was directed at them by their own families frankly and not by their fellow players or coaches or whatnot.
Because saying 'the sports community is less toxic than the video game community because of 'sportsmanship'' in the scope of a #MeToo thread is pretty fucking vile, considering that women have historically never been the recipients of this gift in either.
Sportsmanship and a lack of sexism are not really the same thing though. It's different parallel concepts of proper behaviour that deal with different things. The video game esports thing imo is basically all the issue you see in sports but with extra issues on top of that, some that end up related to #MeToo or the like and some not, because of the lack of any sort of culture of sportsmanship to dictate behaviour.
Right, and I'm saying that 'sportsmanship' doesn't dictate behavior in the sporting community's treatment of women. Said behavior objectifies them and dehumanizes them and harms them just as much as any other community, because the sporting community largely doesn't consider women to be members unless they express a willingness to excuse its problematic and harmful behaviors.
As with many things, it also depends on the group of people in question, and particularly leadership.
When I still played WoW in the top raiding guild on the server (nothing world first cutting edge, but we held our own and then some), a good half of the officers were women (give or take, depending on the era in question), and despite being a mix of mostly late teens to early 30's, things were kept on a fairly tight leash.
Which isn't to say it wasn't fun, or that things never got ribald, or somehow we were saintly paragons of virtue in contrast, but it was enough to be aware of the shit that happened elsewhere (and that it wasn't tolerated in our midst was in fact a draw for some people) and strive to do better.
Any online game (especially a competitive one, or one with limited loot to pass around, doubly so on a timer) will have the risk of those egos and personalities clashing, or showing massive disrespect, or abusing power (even over a group of folks hunting dragons in a make believe world over the weeks and months), as we've seen.
This isn't intended to say 'ahem *pushes up glasses* not allllll nerrrrrds', but to share in my experiences that certainly dealt with a number of raging assholes over the years, but also rested heavily on making sure that the crew was staffed with the best people one could find, and explicitly noting that bigotry and other bullshit wouldn't be tolerated.
I was proud of the crew, and it wasn't easy to walk away from being on the team.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
Not sure what thus has to do with the idea of sportsmanship honestly. But regardless, like a lot of things it's both variable and getting better over time. There's lots of growth in girl's sports from my experience and girls participating in boy's sports at lower age levels has been a thing for quite awhile now, though generally not at high numbers. Most of the discouragement I saw and heard about from women while participating in women's sports was directed at them by their own families frankly and not by their fellow players or coaches or whatnot.
Because saying 'the sports community is less toxic than the video game community because of 'sportsmanship'' in the scope of a #MeToo thread is pretty fucking vile, considering that women have historically never been the recipients of this gift in either.
Sportsmanship and a lack of sexism are not really the same thing though. It's different parallel concepts of proper behaviour that deal with different things. The video game esports thing imo is basically all the issue you see in sports but with extra issues on top of that, some that end up related to #MeToo or the like and some not, because of the lack of any sort of culture of sportsmanship to dictate behaviour.
Right, and I'm saying that 'sportsmanship' doesn't dictate behavior in the sporting community's treatment of women. Said behavior objectifies them and dehumanizes them and harms them just as much as any other community, because the sporting community largely doesn't consider women to be members unless they express a willingness to excuse its problematic and harmful behaviors.
That really depends and is often not accurate in my experience. It depends on a lot of things but plenty of sporting communities consider women to be members. Perhaps one of the things to emphasize here is that sports culture isn't just professional sports culture or the feeder systems into that. It's not even primarily that frankly, given the number of people who aren't in those systems.
And while sportsmanship itself is generally not directly concerned with gender-relations in my experience, it is concerned a lot with how you treat other competitors, which as I said earlier can end up touching on those issues. It's also got plenty of experience with things like "How not to get fucking sued" that mean organizations will have rules and guidelines that would look at some of the shit you see described above about esports and go "what in the fuck are you doing?".
As with many things, it also depends on the group of people in question, and particularly leadership.
When I still played WoW in the top raiding guild on the server (nothing world first cutting edge, but we held our own and then some), a good half of the officers were women (give or take, depending on the era in question), and despite being a mix of mostly late teens to early 30's, things were kept on a fairly tight leash.
Which isn't to say it wasn't fun, or that things never got ribald, or somehow we were saintly paragons of virtue in contrast, but it was enough to be aware of the shit that happened elsewhere (and that it wasn't tolerated in our midst was in fact a draw for some people) and strive to do better.
Any online game (especially a competitive one, or one with limited loot to pass around, doubly so on a timer) will have the risk of those egos and personalities clashing, or showing massive disrespect, or abusing power (even over a group of folks hunting dragons in a make believe world over the weeks and months), as we've seen.
This isn't intended to say 'ahem *pushes up glasses* not allllll nerrrrrds', but to share in my experiences that certainly dealt with a number of raging assholes over the years, but also rested heavily on making sure that the crew was staffed with the best people one could find, and explicitly noting that bigotry and other bullshit wouldn't be tolerated.
I was proud of the crew, and it wasn't easy to walk away from being on the team.
I mean yeah, you take measures, like representation and enforcement of community standards, and you're going to end up with a less toxic environment than those that don't have those things. There are lots of female-led gaming communities out there that have fewer issues than others.
But it's not really enough to have a niche carved out unless their presence is normalized in the greater community. Since GDQ was brought up earlier, the channel has hosted several week-long events where ONLY women and non-binary members were showcased. And that's great! It provided exposure to tons of talented players that would otherwise be overlooked. But they needed to take it a step further and allow those runners a greater opportunity to be part of their more high-profile, live events, in order to have any chance at making the community less toxic as a whole.
Funnily enough despite the stereotypes that are bandied about in the depiction of each, the gaming community is most similar to physical sports in regards to the attitudes that dominate it.
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
Not sure what thus has to do with the idea of sportsmanship honestly. But regardless, like a lot of things it's both variable and getting better over time. There's lots of growth in girl's sports from my experience and girls participating in boy's sports at lower age levels has been a thing for quite awhile now, though generally not at high numbers. Most of the discouragement I saw and heard about from women while participating in women's sports was directed at them by their own families frankly and not by their fellow players or coaches or whatnot.
Because saying 'the sports community is less toxic than the video game community because of 'sportsmanship'' in the scope of a #MeToo thread is pretty fucking vile, considering that women have historically never been the recipients of this gift in either.
Sportsmanship and a lack of sexism are not really the same thing though. It's different parallel concepts of proper behaviour that deal with different things. The video game esports thing imo is basically all the issue you see in sports but with extra issues on top of that, some that end up related to #MeToo or the like and some not, because of the lack of any sort of culture of sportsmanship to dictate behaviour.
Right, and I'm saying that 'sportsmanship' doesn't dictate behavior in the sporting community's treatment of women. Said behavior objectifies them and dehumanizes them and harms them just as much as any other community, because the sporting community largely doesn't consider women to be members unless they express a willingness to excuse its problematic and harmful behaviors.
That really depends and is often not accurate in my experience. It depends on a lot of things but plenty of sporting communities consider women to be members. Perhaps one of the things to emphasize here is that sports culture isn't just professional sports culture or the feeder systems into that. It's not even primarily that frankly, given the number of people who aren't in those systems.
And while sportsmanship itself is generally not directly concerned with gender-relations in my experience, it is concerned a lot with how you treat other competitors, which as I said earlier can end up touching on those issues. It's also got plenty of experience with things like "How not to get fucking sued" that mean organizations will have rules and guidelines that would look at some of the shit you see described above about esports and go "what in the fuck are you doing?".
Well then allow me to state that your experience is woefully inadequate to be making that claim with any credibility.
Posts
It's not just fighting games. It's literally the entire esports scene. These "gaming houses" are ubiquitous in the esports scene where groups of underaged young people, usually men, are sharing a house/mansion together that is being bankrolled by their management - who is also just a slightly more grown up version of them. It's a situation that is just completely sketchy and should seriously be looked into.
I thought I read far enough back but maybe I missed it. Either way, yeah what a fucking terrible husband. Throw him on the pile with the other two.
PSN:Furlion
wh
wha
WHAT
THE
FUCK
KIND
OF
ASSHOLE
HUSBAND
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Judging by Tolki's account, they're still together.
I can't judge him for that. He was 19 and by all accounts not an adult or confident enough to speak up. What he did was wrong. It was essentially blackmail using his wife's rape as collateral. I can understand how you would want to protect someone and the only way you feel like you can is to keep them "safe" from the internet mob.
She was raped, they were threatened and her husband did a wrong thing. I don't think it makes him a participant in the assault, but it makes him very wrong in his response.
pleasepaypreacher.net
As a gamer I can be frustrated, as a parent it's a godsend to have a curated and tightly controlled platform that I don't have to micromanage to make sure my children aren't inadvertently exposed to some alt-right bigot "asking questions" and getting their hooks in (I'm looking at you YouTube).
Seriously, if you think Mormon purity valuations are fucked up you have no idea because they are galaxy-brained level of fucked up.
the fgc broadly is actually quite an interesting one - for various reasons certain kinds of bigotry are much less common, eg conventional racism, and there has been a surprisingly quick turnaround in some parts of it on trans issues (albeit incomplete...)
the rep for savagery is often justified but you are vastly more likely to encounter casual racism/transphobia in a generic online fps than an sf5 tournament
Yeah, I came across her husband's twitter account, and he had simply retweeted her story and added "Believe women" so I suppose they've been sorting through the whole mess together.
My Backloggery
This has not been my experience at all. What are you basing that observation on?
I honestly don't know how. Like what he did to me is a betrayal that I can't even begin to surmise. Just reading about it sends me into a wanting to smash shit rage.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Context, basically. He probably assumed she was stupid, got drunk and got it on deliberately to cheat on him, because that's the story he was told. And partially because of her upbringing I think she believed it too at least for a while. I don't doubt they've had some...serious issues since, but I'm not going to fault anyone for their choice to stay or not here. I'll fault the hell out of him for A. leaving when he said he wouldn't and B. trusting his asshole rapist friends over his partner though.
Apparently they were both really deep into the church. Not sure how true that is anymore.
PSN:Furlion
As funny as that would be, TERF is just about the most apt acronym known to humanity. It's a group that has staked out a claim on a patch of ideological turf and won't let anybody else in. I don't believe in a god, but sometimes bits of magical happenstance like this perfect acronym make me doubt.
People abuse power for their own gains everywhere, to the detriment and suffering of others.
You'll find this everywhere you look, once you look.
its not specific to gaming, but Gaming uniquely is a mega toxic environment where sexism flourishes and is nurtured by gamers. Like there was a tweet about people acting gross in an mmo from a female streamer and most of the replies were from Men telling her she can't be offended because reasons.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Totally, the same kind of dumb bullshit I've seen in MMO chat channels, and guild channels is just as awful as "locker room" talk.
pleasepaypreacher.net
It's worse imo. Gaming is all the shitty and competitive aspects of sports with none of the concepts of sportsmanship.
I think for me the worse aspect is how insular and protective gaming gets. You call out someone for being a creepy fuck and you have a bunch of people defending the creepy behavior because reasons.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Most depictions of 'sportsmanship' are purely PR, and absolutely doesn't extend to the women in the sporting community.
Like all these "oh my god this streamer was a creeper/rapist" things have another gross element that a lot of those communities knew about these guys, did stuff to distance their events from these guys but didn't warn the outside community at large.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Nah. Especially in children's sports leagues these kind of concepts frequently drive rule-making and culture. There is a socially and authoritatively enforced code of conduct to some extent or another. More in some sports then others.
It's also when gender segregation in sports is first introduced and ingrained, with the least reason to do so. Young girls who wish to play sports in boys teams are met with derision and discouragement, and when there is a team for girls, it's almost always less funded and supported.
Yeah, and that's exactly the same with sports. Talented players are taught that their communities value them over the women they harm, so they continue doing it, and their communities shield them.
If anything it's MUCH more difficult to deliver meaningful consequences on a valuable athlete than it is a prominent streamer or MMO-person or whatever, because the former often has more money tied up in their presence and status, and the available market for the latter is MUCH more saturated. To sponsors/advertisers, and even viewers, one is usually WAY easier to replace than the other.
Not sure what thus has to do with the idea of sportsmanship honestly. But regardless, like a lot of things it's both variable and getting better over time. There's lots of growth in girl's sports from my experience and girls participating in boy's sports at lower age levels has been a thing for quite awhile now, though generally not at high numbers. Most of the discouragement I saw and heard about from women while participating in women's sports was directed at them by their own families frankly and not by their fellow players or coaches or whatnot.
Because saying 'the sports community is less toxic than the video game community because of 'sportsmanship'' in the scope of a #MeToo thread is pretty fucking vile, considering that women have historically never been the recipients of this gift in either.
Sportsmanship and a lack of sexism are not really the same thing though. It's different parallel concepts of proper behaviour that deal with different things. The video game esports thing imo is basically all the issue you see in sports but with extra issues on top of that, some that end up related to #MeToo or the like and some not, because of the lack of any sort of culture of sportsmanship to dictate behaviour.
Not to mention that there was a lot of selling of the idea that having the disposable income to spend on all this shit makes you a oppressed minority. Think Revenge of the Nerds and the like. When actual oppressed minorities told the gamers "no, you aren't, fuck you" they went apeshit. There's a reason why so many employees go on rants saying how much they hate this playerbase.
Right, and I'm saying that 'sportsmanship' doesn't dictate behavior in the sporting community's treatment of women. Said behavior objectifies them and dehumanizes them and harms them just as much as any other community, because the sporting community largely doesn't consider women to be members unless they express a willingness to excuse its problematic and harmful behaviors.
When I still played WoW in the top raiding guild on the server (nothing world first cutting edge, but we held our own and then some), a good half of the officers were women (give or take, depending on the era in question), and despite being a mix of mostly late teens to early 30's, things were kept on a fairly tight leash.
Which isn't to say it wasn't fun, or that things never got ribald, or somehow we were saintly paragons of virtue in contrast, but it was enough to be aware of the shit that happened elsewhere (and that it wasn't tolerated in our midst was in fact a draw for some people) and strive to do better.
Any online game (especially a competitive one, or one with limited loot to pass around, doubly so on a timer) will have the risk of those egos and personalities clashing, or showing massive disrespect, or abusing power (even over a group of folks hunting dragons in a make believe world over the weeks and months), as we've seen.
This isn't intended to say 'ahem *pushes up glasses* not allllll nerrrrrds', but to share in my experiences that certainly dealt with a number of raging assholes over the years, but also rested heavily on making sure that the crew was staffed with the best people one could find, and explicitly noting that bigotry and other bullshit wouldn't be tolerated.
I was proud of the crew, and it wasn't easy to walk away from being on the team.
That really depends and is often not accurate in my experience. It depends on a lot of things but plenty of sporting communities consider women to be members. Perhaps one of the things to emphasize here is that sports culture isn't just professional sports culture or the feeder systems into that. It's not even primarily that frankly, given the number of people who aren't in those systems.
And while sportsmanship itself is generally not directly concerned with gender-relations in my experience, it is concerned a lot with how you treat other competitors, which as I said earlier can end up touching on those issues. It's also got plenty of experience with things like "How not to get fucking sued" that mean organizations will have rules and guidelines that would look at some of the shit you see described above about esports and go "what in the fuck are you doing?".
I mean yeah, you take measures, like representation and enforcement of community standards, and you're going to end up with a less toxic environment than those that don't have those things. There are lots of female-led gaming communities out there that have fewer issues than others.
But it's not really enough to have a niche carved out unless their presence is normalized in the greater community. Since GDQ was brought up earlier, the channel has hosted several week-long events where ONLY women and non-binary members were showcased. And that's great! It provided exposure to tons of talented players that would otherwise be overlooked. But they needed to take it a step further and allow those runners a greater opportunity to be part of their more high-profile, live events, in order to have any chance at making the community less toxic as a whole.
Well then allow me to state that your experience is woefully inadequate to be making that claim with any credibility.