One of the reasons why I pay zero attention to e-sports is because it borders extremely close on child exploitation for me.
I like professional players as entertainers. I can't ever take any athlete seriously as a role model based on their ability in a video game - OR - physical sport. They have to be more than that. By all accounts people like LeBron James, Danny Trejo and Dave Grohl have been entertainers in addition to being pretty worthwhile people. Yeah, I lumped a basketball player, a guy who did a bunch of time in prison who became a movie star and a guy who sings songs and plays drums together. They're all entertainers as a job, that job doesn't make them good people.
Someone who's inspired by a person on the internet who plays tough guy and blurts out homophobic slurs all day who ends up being accused of rape needed more guidance than the internet or any one community can give in the first place.
The competition isn't causing the problem, though. Why limit a kid's chance to make some money and achieve something, when the problem is clearly the parts where nobody is holding a controller?
We generally have lots of restrictions on child labour.
The labor isn't the thing harming the child here.
According to what? We have lots of restrictions on child labour, period. And even then it can still be a real shit show.
Just cause it's video games doesn't suddenly change anything.
According to the context of this thread. Look, if you think children competing is exploitative, make a thread about it. We are talking about #metoo here. I'm not interested in the fine details of what is and is not appropriate child work. My concern is that your response to a victim group in a sexual assualt context is to exclude them. There are many reasons I might agree with your premise, but in a #metoo context, the predators are the problem, not the kids.
The competition isn't causing the problem, though. Why limit a kid's chance to make some money and achieve something, when the problem is clearly the parts where nobody is holding a controller?
We generally have lots of restrictions on child labour.
The labor isn't the thing harming the child here.
According to what? We have lots of restrictions on child labour, period. And even then it can still be a real shit show.
Just cause it's video games doesn't suddenly change anything.
According to the context of this thread. Look, if you think children competing is exploitative, make a thread about it. We are talking about #metoo here. I'm not interested in the fine details of what is and is not appropriate child work. My concern is that your response to a victim group in a sexual assualt context is to exclude them. There are many reasons I might agree with your premise, but in a #metoo context, the predators are the problem, not the kids.
The situation the kids are in is the problem if it does not adequately safeguard them. This is why there's a ton of rules around child labour, even in contexts similar to this. And of course those same kind of situations have also, not shockingly, had problems with children being abused too. From child actors to young athletes to whatever else you wanna go for, you can find incidents. These are not separate contexts. One is not divorced from the other.
The competition isn't causing the problem, though. Why limit a kid's chance to make some money and achieve something, when the problem is clearly the parts where nobody is holding a controller?
We generally have lots of restrictions on child labour.
The labor isn't the thing harming the child here.
According to what? We have lots of restrictions on child labour, period. And even then it can still be a real shit show.
Just cause it's video games doesn't suddenly change anything.
According to the context of this thread. Look, if you think children competing is exploitative, make a thread about it. We are talking about #metoo here. I'm not interested in the fine details of what is and is not appropriate child work. My concern is that your response to a victim group in a sexual assualt context is to exclude them. There are many reasons I might agree with your premise, but in a #metoo context, the predators are the problem, not the kids.
The situation the kids are in is the problem if it does not adequately safeguard them. This is why there's a ton of rules around child labour, even in contexts similar to this. And of course those same kind of situations have also, not shockingly, had problems with children being abused too. From child actors to young athletes to whatever else you wanna go for, you can find incidents. These are not separate contexts. One is not divorced from the other.
And yet, kids act and play pro sports. If your first rule proposed is to ban kids, you might be targeting the wrong side of the equation.
For gaming events, it'd be pretty trivial to adopt most professional sporting event rules. Minimum age to purchase admission, minimum age to attend with the exception that adult chaperones can accompany people under that minimum. and on-site security should any issues arise.
Most parents assume video gaming is still strictly a childrens hobby so they don't really think about any necessary safeguards because they assume their children will just be around other children.
It's the same as, to a much lesser extend, TCG conventions.
Child actors were kind of notorious for being horribly treated.
The regulations for child actors in California are incredibly strict. This did not happen by accident - those regulations are written in blood and tears.
Esports as a thing is such a wild and fucked up thing, but to give the quick and dirty:
esports are actually a giant bubble and scam. Theres a slight possibility that it will work out before it implodes, but by and large, noone actually cares about esports except the immediate community, outside of that, its basically poison. Even for established games, (LoL and Dota2 for mobas), theres a chance something steals their playerbase and the bottom falls out of everything. EVO and the FGC as 'esports' is basically small fry or even a blip, and is so encapsulated for several different reasons (culture toxicity is a feature, inclusive nature of the community, forked across too many games). Quick perspective: evo prize pool is ~200k, dota2's similar tournament is 28million. However, the reasons evo stays small is why it will probably last. I am hopeful that these sweeping rules changes about its culture make a difference.
Kids shouldnt be in it for the same reason minors shouldnt be in the olympics or twitch/youtube stars. They are built in certain categories to excel at their prime that is earlier than 18, to such a degree that most age out or retire in early 20's in most games(24 in starcraft 2 as a champion was kind of looked at like 'why did you bother to show up?'). But good luck getting a ban in either setting accomplished.
Child actors were kind of notorious for being horribly treated.
The regulations for child actors in California are incredibly strict. This did not happen by accident - those regulations are written in blood and tears.
So, the mayor of Seoul has been found dead in what is believed to have been a suicide a day after his secretary reported him to the police for sexual harassment. Ironically, he was also the first Korean attorney to win a sexual harassment case.
I know little about Korean law, but I've seen claims that because he killed himself prior to conviction, his victim will be unable to claim any compensation against his estate.
So, the mayor of Seoul has been found dead in what is believed to have been a suicide a day after his secretary reported him to the police for sexual harassment. Ironically, he was also the first Korean attorney to win a sexual harassment case.
I know little about Korean law, but I've seen claims that because he killed himself prior to conviction, his victim will be unable to claim any compensation against his estate.
Well, that's disgusting.
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
Given that, it seems like having HR quit would be the best thing for Ubisoft. As long as they replace them with people who will take sexual harassment threats seriously. And I know HR, as a general rule, is not on the side of the employees, but on the side of the business, but if you're on the side of the business you should take sexual harassment seriously as a threat to the business.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I didn't know this, but Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka is a domestic abuser. Apparently there is a long history of this that I was completely unaware of, but it's news now because the Something Awful forums are rebelling against him at this point.
Uh...isn't that the same that the police unions are doing on the Police Brutality thread? "If you dare to impose standards on us we will leave"?
Like, Christ. My hunch is also that they also have a bunch of dirty laundry not made public yet about the company leadership, and they plan to air it if they don't get their way.
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augustwhere you come from is goneRegistered Userregular
I didn't know this, but Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka is a domestic abuser. Apparently there is a long history of this that I was completely unaware of, but it's news now because the Something Awful forums are rebelling against him at this point.
The new owner is the head admin of the forums. He was the biggest defender of the ironically nazi/racist/lgbtphobic sub-forum that they had to shut down over Christmas when it turned out that, in a surprise twist, they weren't being ironic.
I didn't know this, but Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka is a domestic abuser. Apparently there is a long history of this that I was completely unaware of, but it's news now because the Something Awful forums are rebelling against him at this point.
The new owner is the head admin of the forums. He was the biggest defender of the ironically nazi/racist/lgbtphobic sub-forum that they had to shut down over Christmas when it turned out that, in a surprise twist, they weren't being ironic.
Somethingawful has literally always been the quiet part out loud
The only exception was a few smaller communities within the forum.
E: That this forum is the way it is, is incredible.
I didn't know this, but Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka is a domestic abuser. Apparently there is a long history of this that I was completely unaware of, but it's news now because the Something Awful forums are rebelling against him at this point.
The new owner is the head admin of the forums. He was the biggest defender of the ironically nazi/racist/lgbtphobic sub-forum that they had to shut down over Christmas when it turned out that, in a surprise twist, they weren't being ironic.
Man I hope Slowbeef wasn't wrapped up in this. Him and Diabeetus were always my favorite SA peeps.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Given that, it seems like having HR quit would be the best thing for Ubisoft. As long as they replace them with people who will take sexual harassment threats seriously. And I know HR, as a general rule, is not on the side of the employees, but on the side of the business, but if you're on the side of the business you should take sexual harassment seriously as a threat to the business.
HR is supposed to be on the side of preventing liability for the business, not necessarily on the side of the business itself. It's a narrow distinction but it can be important depending on who exactly is creating liability. In this case, it looks like HR's making more than anyone else.
"History of numerous poorly handled reports," diminishes the defense in every one of those cases. Bigger settlements to stay out of court, bigger and more likely judgements in court, not to mention what might get dragged into public record during discovery.
Basically, sounds to me like HR epically failed in its job of protecting the business.
I didn't know this, but Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka is a domestic abuser. Apparently there is a long history of this that I was completely unaware of, but it's news now because the Something Awful forums are rebelling against him at this point.
The new owner is the head admin of the forums. He was the biggest defender of the ironically nazi/racist/lgbtphobic sub-forum that they had to shut down over Christmas when it turned out that, in a surprise twist, they weren't being ironic.
Man I hope Slowbeef wasn't wrapped up in this. Him and Diabeetus were always my favorite SA peeps.
That crowd is more likely to be up its own ass lefties than ironic Nazis.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I didn't know this, but Richard "Lowtax" Kyanka is a domestic abuser. Apparently there is a long history of this that I was completely unaware of, but it's news now because the Something Awful forums are rebelling against him at this point.
The new owner is the head admin of the forums. He was the biggest defender of the ironically nazi/racist/lgbtphobic sub-forum that they had to shut down over Christmas when it turned out that, in a surprise twist, they weren't being ironic.
Man I hope Slowbeef wasn't wrapped up in this. Him and Diabeetus were always my favorite SA peeps.
That crowd is more likely to be up its own ass lefties than ironic Nazis.
I take nothing for granted! Last I remember both beef and beetus were left side peeps, but that doesn't mean they can't be awful something elses.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I rarely visit Something Awful, usually for threads on specific shows (Steven Universe in particular, when that show was still going). I'll say that the general feel in the sections I visit leans left and that it's gotten moreso over time.
That's in the sections I visit, mind. Other parts could be horrible.
Something Awful has always rubbed me wrong since they have always believed that they are better than everybody else on the Internet because they paid money to post on a forum. Such arrogance making them blind to "ironic racism" not being ironic is unsurprising.
Something Awful has always rubbed me wrong since they have always believed that they are better than everybody else on the Internet because they paid money to post on a forum. Such arrogance making them blind to "ironic racism" not being ironic is unsurprising.
I've run into goons running in a group in multiple online multiplayer games I've played and they are always, 100%, without question, total assholes.
Is this a play stupid games situation? It seems one to me.
More "if you come at the king, you best not miss." Threatening your boss is not a move that goes well.
Good threatening your boss: "If you do ask me to do this illegal shit, me and the union are gonna make sure nothing gets done."
Bad threatening your boss: "If you don't publicly exonerate me of the illegal shit I was doing, I'm going to take the half of my department implicated in the illegal shit and leave."
Speaking of, Ubisoft did tweet a statement that the pseudo-E3 presentation is pre-recorded and thus doesn't recognize what just happened.
Edit - Which is... fair enough. To some degree. They should be delaying it and editing it as necessary.
I dunno. Re-recording any sections that need different people showing up might be difficult given the pandemic. If it's just voice over stuff yeah, that could be swapped out, but...
Posts
I like professional players as entertainers. I can't ever take any athlete seriously as a role model based on their ability in a video game - OR - physical sport. They have to be more than that. By all accounts people like LeBron James, Danny Trejo and Dave Grohl have been entertainers in addition to being pretty worthwhile people. Yeah, I lumped a basketball player, a guy who did a bunch of time in prison who became a movie star and a guy who sings songs and plays drums together. They're all entertainers as a job, that job doesn't make them good people.
Someone who's inspired by a person on the internet who plays tough guy and blurts out homophobic slurs all day who ends up being accused of rape needed more guidance than the internet or any one community can give in the first place.
According to the context of this thread. Look, if you think children competing is exploitative, make a thread about it. We are talking about #metoo here. I'm not interested in the fine details of what is and is not appropriate child work. My concern is that your response to a victim group in a sexual assualt context is to exclude them. There are many reasons I might agree with your premise, but in a #metoo context, the predators are the problem, not the kids.
The situation the kids are in is the problem if it does not adequately safeguard them. This is why there's a ton of rules around child labour, even in contexts similar to this. And of course those same kind of situations have also, not shockingly, had problems with children being abused too. From child actors to young athletes to whatever else you wanna go for, you can find incidents. These are not separate contexts. One is not divorced from the other.
And yet, kids act and play pro sports. If your first rule proposed is to ban kids, you might be targeting the wrong side of the equation.
Most parents assume video gaming is still strictly a childrens hobby so they don't really think about any necessary safeguards because they assume their children will just be around other children.
It's the same as, to a much lesser extend, TCG conventions.
The regulations for child actors in California are incredibly strict. This did not happen by accident - those regulations are written in blood and tears.
Given that pro players for videogames can end up destroying their arms, videogames are not necessarily that safe to do at a competitive level either.
esports are actually a giant bubble and scam. Theres a slight possibility that it will work out before it implodes, but by and large, noone actually cares about esports except the immediate community, outside of that, its basically poison. Even for established games, (LoL and Dota2 for mobas), theres a chance something steals their playerbase and the bottom falls out of everything. EVO and the FGC as 'esports' is basically small fry or even a blip, and is so encapsulated for several different reasons (culture toxicity is a feature, inclusive nature of the community, forked across too many games). Quick perspective: evo prize pool is ~200k, dota2's similar tournament is 28million. However, the reasons evo stays small is why it will probably last. I am hopeful that these sweeping rules changes about its culture make a difference.
Kids shouldnt be in it for the same reason minors shouldnt be in the olympics or twitch/youtube stars. They are built in certain categories to excel at their prime that is earlier than 18, to such a degree that most age out or retire in early 20's in most games(24 in starcraft 2 as a champion was kind of looked at like 'why did you bother to show up?'). But good luck getting a ban in either setting accomplished.
That's the story of most regulations.
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I know little about Korean law, but I've seen claims that because he killed himself prior to conviction, his victim will be unable to claim any compensation against his estate.
Literally the exact thing I was thinking of.
Well, that's disgusting.
... huh.
Ok I needed context for this, so I assume this is in reference to this?
https://www.spieltimes.com/news/ubisoft-investigation-100-cases-from-psychological-harassment-to-rape/
Given that, it seems like having HR quit would be the best thing for Ubisoft. As long as they replace them with people who will take sexual harassment threats seriously. And I know HR, as a general rule, is not on the side of the employees, but on the side of the business, but if you're on the side of the business you should take sexual harassment seriously as a threat to the business.
*insert Willy Wonka jpeg here*
Sounds good.
Follow-up to this, it looks like SA managed to run Lowtax out and are getting a new owner:
https://www.somethingawful.com/news/pardon-our-dust/
Like, Christ. My hunch is also that they also have a bunch of dirty laundry not made public yet about the company leadership, and they plan to air it if they don't get their way.
Yeah, and possibly counting higher, knowing how 2020 rolls.
Nintendo is going to drop the support for the competition if , and when more allegations arise.
The new owner is the head admin of the forums. He was the biggest defender of the ironically nazi/racist/lgbtphobic sub-forum that they had to shut down over Christmas when it turned out that, in a surprise twist, they weren't being ironic.
Somethingawful has literally always been the quiet part out loud
The only exception was a few smaller communities within the forum.
E: That this forum is the way it is, is incredible.
Man I hope Slowbeef wasn't wrapped up in this. Him and Diabeetus were always my favorite SA peeps.
pleasepaypreacher.net
HR is supposed to be on the side of preventing liability for the business, not necessarily on the side of the business itself. It's a narrow distinction but it can be important depending on who exactly is creating liability. In this case, it looks like HR's making more than anyone else.
"History of numerous poorly handled reports," diminishes the defense in every one of those cases. Bigger settlements to stay out of court, bigger and more likely judgements in court, not to mention what might get dragged into public record during discovery.
Basically, sounds to me like HR epically failed in its job of protecting the business.
That crowd is more likely to be up its own ass lefties than ironic Nazis.
I take nothing for granted! Last I remember both beef and beetus were left side peeps, but that doesn't mean they can't be awful something elses.
pleasepaypreacher.net
That's in the sections I visit, mind. Other parts could be horrible.
I've run into goons running in a group in multiple online multiplayer games I've played and they are always, 100%, without question, total assholes.
"Hold me blameless or I quit," and then he quits. Sounds that way to me too.
Stupid games like blackmail rely on other people being stupid and not having lawyers of their own. That tends to not be the case.
More "if you come at the king, you best not miss." Threatening your boss is not a move that goes well.
Good threatening your boss: "If you do ask me to do this illegal shit, me and the union are gonna make sure nothing gets done."
Bad threatening your boss: "If you don't publicly exonerate me of the illegal shit I was doing, I'm going to take the half of my department implicated in the illegal shit and leave."
It's hard to overstate just how big a deal this is.
Plus, this happened less than a day before Ubisoft Forward, which is the company's not-E3 presentation of upcoming stuff.
I mean, holy shit.
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Fuck Joe Manchin
Edit - Which is... fair enough. To some degree. They should be delaying it and editing it as necessary.
I dunno. Re-recording any sections that need different people showing up might be difficult given the pandemic. If it's just voice over stuff yeah, that could be swapped out, but...
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Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy