As someone getting back in the game, reading this announcement all I could think was "there are how many formats?" Is Historic eventually supposed to become Pioneer, or did they choose to to make Arena have its own eternal format for whatever reason?
They made Arena have its own eternal format before Pioneer was announced, in order to let people play with their rotated cards, because people hate the idea of permanently losing cards. It's its own custom thing, not pioneer nor intended to be.
So to be clear, with the upcoming Amonkhet Remastered (and eventually Kaladesh?), Historic will functionally be Pioneer + Random Modern/Legacy cards released through things like Jumpstart?
No, Pioneer goes back way further than Arena does.
Yeah Pioneer starts with Return to Ravnica (or the Core Set just prior, I forget).
I guess I was confused due to how many Ravnica sets there have been; Return to Ravnica was the block before (or after?) Khans of Tarkir? Whereas all these Ravnica precons that you use in Arena are from... the more recent Ravnica?
As someone getting back in the game, reading this announcement all I could think was "there are how many formats?" Is Historic eventually supposed to become Pioneer, or did they choose to to make Arena have its own eternal format for whatever reason?
They made Arena have its own eternal format before Pioneer was announced, in order to let people play with their rotated cards, because people hate the idea of permanently losing cards. It's its own custom thing, not pioneer nor intended to be.
So to be clear, with the upcoming Amonkhet Remastered (and eventually Kaladesh?), Historic will functionally be Pioneer + Random Modern/Legacy cards released through things like Jumpstart?
No, Pioneer goes back way further than Arena does.
Yeah Pioneer starts with Return to Ravnica (or the Core Set just prior, I forget).
I guess I was confused due to how many Ravnica sets there have been; Return to Ravnica was the block before (or after?) Khans of Tarkir? Whereas all these Ravnica precons that you use in Arena are from... the more recent Ravnica?
Return to Ravnica was before Theros, which was before Tarkir.
The Ravnicas in Arena are from Guilds of Ravnica (not be confused with Ravnica, City of Guilds), Ravnica Allegiance, and War of the Spark. Which are the most recent sets set on Ravnica, coming just after Dominaria.
When I tried to quickly google answers to my confusion, first I discovered Wikipedia didn't seem to think sets had been released since Dominaria, or else had things filed elsewhere, and then WotC's shitty site showed me the recent sets, but I had no idea War of the Spark was a Ravnica block/set. (Expansions are just isolated sets now, right?)
Anyway, I do wonder how much of a burden attempting to develop/balance with this many formats in mind is, as I gather bannings have been a bit more aggressive as of late. I know they used to just sort of shrug and say "eh, whatever happens in Eternal formats happens."
When I tried to quickly google answers to my confusion, first I discovered Wikipedia didn't seem to think sets had been released since Dominaria, or else had things filed elsewhere, and then WotC's shitty site showed me the recent sets, but I had no idea War of the Spark was a Ravnica block/set. (Expansions are just isolated sets now, right?)
Anyway, I do wonder how much of a burden attempting to develop/balance with this many formats in mind is, as I gather bannings have been a bit more aggressive as of late. I know they used to just sort of shrug and say "eh, whatever happens in Eternal formats happens."
On Wizard's shitty site, you have to go the 'All Sets' page, which only show the most recent products and then scroll all the way down the page to the bar saying 'Looking For Older Products?' and that one will get you to a list of all sets.
War of the Spark takes place on Ravnica, so I count it as a Ravnica set.
I'm thinking it was premature to ban the cat, when Hushbringer might be more viable in decks if everything moves away from Uro.
And the oven seems like the better piece to ban anyway, if we care about neutering the archetype rather than just removing a whole bunch of triggers.
So I accidentally tap a land-creature trying to attack and it taps for mana, so I hit cancel and it keeps it tapped and goes to combat. OOOOOk, whoever programmed that.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
So I accidentally tap a land-creature trying to attack and it taps for mana, so I hit cancel and it keeps it tapped and goes to combat. OOOOOk, whoever programmed that.
That's definitely an odd sequence of events as I'm not sure why "Cancel" would show up in that situation, but to undo tapping a land for mana you hit "z".
When I tried to quickly google answers to my confusion, first I discovered Wikipedia didn't seem to think sets had been released since Dominaria, or else had things filed elsewhere, and then WotC's shitty site showed me the recent sets, but I had no idea War of the Spark was a Ravnica block/set. (Expansions are just isolated sets now, right?)
Anyway, I do wonder how much of a burden attempting to develop/balance with this many formats in mind is, as I gather bannings have been a bit more aggressive as of late. I know they used to just sort of shrug and say "eh, whatever happens in Eternal formats happens."
They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper. The only eternal format that they design & develop for is Commander.
They still ban cards in those formats (see: Lurrus) but not that often.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
When I tried to quickly google answers to my confusion, first I discovered Wikipedia didn't seem to think sets had been released since Dominaria, or else had things filed elsewhere, and then WotC's shitty site showed me the recent sets, but I had no idea War of the Spark was a Ravnica block/set. (Expansions are just isolated sets now, right?)
Anyway, I do wonder how much of a burden attempting to develop/balance with this many formats in mind is, as I gather bannings have been a bit more aggressive as of late. I know they used to just sort of shrug and say "eh, whatever happens in Eternal formats happens."
They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper. The only eternal format that they design & develop for is Commander.
They still ban cards in those formats (see: Lurrus) but not that often.
They definitely design cards targeted at eternal formats, such as:
but I doubt it gets much or any playtest attention. Just kind of "don't make it obviously broken & see what happens."
When I tried to quickly google answers to my confusion, first I discovered Wikipedia didn't seem to think sets had been released since Dominaria, or else had things filed elsewhere, and then WotC's shitty site showed me the recent sets, but I had no idea War of the Spark was a Ravnica block/set. (Expansions are just isolated sets now, right?)
Anyway, I do wonder how much of a burden attempting to develop/balance with this many formats in mind is, as I gather bannings have been a bit more aggressive as of late. I know they used to just sort of shrug and say "eh, whatever happens in Eternal formats happens."
They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper. The only eternal format that they design & develop for is Commander.
They still ban cards in those formats (see: Lurrus) but not that often.
They definitely design cards targeted at eternal formats, such as:
but I doubt it gets much or any playtest attention. Just kind of "don't make it obviously broken & see what happens."
Honest question: did WotC explicitly say that they designed Lavinia with Legacy or Vintage in mind?
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I'm not saying Lavinia definitely wasn't designed for Eternal in mind. She might have been. She just feels more like a Modern card - she fits into Modern spirits or humans, and she hamstrings Tron without shutting Tron down entirely. She just also happens to be playable in some Legacy & Vintage decks.
To be fair, I can think of at least one card that was undeniably designed for Legacy: Flusterstorm, and it was a big reason that the Commander deck it came in (Zedruu, IIRC) was hard to find. So maybe I should temper my comment above from "They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper" to "They rarely design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper."
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
To be clear, based on what I recall circa 2014 (when I last played MTG), I was using “eternal” to refer to any of the (now many) “non-rotating” formats. As even then, Modern was treated as something so time-consuming and challenging to evaluate that playtesting just ignored it.
That I remember Extended (and the early player-run pre-Modern format) made the existence of both Pioneer and Historic a bit surprising, as I thought this degree of format-splintering was something they were dedicated to avoiding.
Opponent: mills down to zero
Opponent: plays Island
Me: Swamp, cast a 1-mana dork
Opponent: draws, plays Island
Me: Swamp, attack, cast a 2-mana dork
Opponent: draws, plays Island
Me, Swamp, attack, with just my 1-mana dork to see what the hell this guy is doing. cast a 3-mana dork.
Opponent: draws, plays Island
Me, Swamp, attack, with just my 1-mana dork to see what the hell this guy is doing. cast a 4-mana dork.
Opponent: draws, plays Treasure Hunt. Finds a Thassa's Oracle and a Mystic Sanctuary, puts the Treasure Hunt on top of his deck.
Me: oh, I see. Agonizing Remorse that Thassa's Oracle.
Opponent: *scoop*
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
This is literally the most broken Jumpstart deck I've ever had. It is impossible to overstate how much the combination of devils with death triggers, forced blocks, and acts of treason combine to create a truly bonkers aggro deck with reach and draw power.
E: Currently 8-1 to it, only loss was when somebody drew a clutch baneslayer angel after I already blew removal (perhaps foolishly) to kill two fatties at once with a forced block after theft.
milski on
I ate an engineer
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
edited August 2020
Modern and Legacy may as well be the same format for most people now
Edit: as far as where it sits in eternal formats and how much it costs and such, not literally are the same with the same decks. For someone who has started playing relatively recently the difference between a 25 year old card and a 15 year old card is pretty similar: they’re both old as fuck cards
Elldren on
fuck gendered marketing
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Hilariously, my very dumb lifegain deck is pretty strong against a couple of the common aggression decka
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I'm not saying Lavinia definitely wasn't designed for Eternal in mind. She might have been. She just feels more like a Modern card - she fits into Modern spirits or humans, and she hamstrings Tron without shutting Tron down entirely. She just also happens to be playable in some Legacy & Vintage decks.
To be fair, I can think of at least one card that was undeniably designed for Legacy: Flusterstorm, and it was a big reason that the Commander deck it came in (Zedruu, IIRC) was hard to find. So maybe I should temper my comment above from "They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper" to "They rarely design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper."
Also True-Name Nemesis, which was even more recent.
Hilariously, my very dumb lifegain deck is pretty strong against a couple of the common aggression decka
A really good aggro deck is almost always precisely tuned to kill you exactly on turn 3 or 4 or something I find. A few points of lifelink sometimes messes the well tuned ones up completely, espescially if they rely on creature based evasion like flying or 'can't be blocked' to kill you.
I'm not saying Lavinia definitely wasn't designed for Eternal in mind. She might have been. She just feels more like a Modern card - she fits into Modern spirits or humans, and she hamstrings Tron without shutting Tron down entirely. She just also happens to be playable in some Legacy & Vintage decks.
To be fair, I can think of at least one card that was undeniably designed for Legacy: Flusterstorm, and it was a big reason that the Commander deck it came in (Zedruu, IIRC) was hard to find. So maybe I should temper my comment above from "They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper" to "They rarely design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper."
Also True-Name Nemesis, which was even more recent.
TNN was designed for multiplayer (Commander) where it's protection isn't oppressive.
I'm not saying Lavinia definitely wasn't designed for Eternal in mind. She might have been. She just feels more like a Modern card - she fits into Modern spirits or humans, and she hamstrings Tron without shutting Tron down entirely. She just also happens to be playable in some Legacy & Vintage decks.
To be fair, I can think of at least one card that was undeniably designed for Legacy: Flusterstorm, and it was a big reason that the Commander deck it came in (Zedruu, IIRC) was hard to find. So maybe I should temper my comment above from "They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper" to "They rarely design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper."
Also True-Name Nemesis, which was even more recent.
TNN was more of a "oh shit that's good in Legacy" than designed for it.
Sometimes you double vamps and walk through people. Other times you end up in predatory discard and just draw the wrong half of each archetype and do nothing
I did get double vamps tonight. Somehow. It's a pretty good deck, though I still got blown out by Teferi Mill.
Modern and Legacy may as well be the same format for most people now
Edit: as far as where it sits in eternal formats and how much it costs and such, not literally are the same with the same decks. For someone who has started playing relatively recently the difference between a 25 year old card and a 15 year old card is pretty similar: they’re both old as fuck cards
Ehhhhhhhhhh
Sure, if your budget for a deck is $200, then it doesn't matter if a format costs $500 to get into or $5000 to get into. They're both unattainable.
But there's still an order of magnitude difference.
You can get into legacy at relatively low levels of expense, as long as you are willing to play a very limited selection of low-cost archetypes (example: red burn or merfolk) which are mostly tier-2 decks or worse, or you are willing to play a deck that runs a sub-optimal mana base. But competitive legacy decks require multiple lands & mana rocks from the reserved list that will set you back hundreds of dollars per card. A legacy deck with original duals will always outperform a deck using shocks. Legacy elves gets a huge boost from Gaea's Cradle. Storm gets a huge boost from Lion's Eye Diamond. Anybody who loses to aggro gets a huge boost from Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. etc.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Hey guys
I made a very dumb, very fun death touch deck
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Posts
I guess I was confused due to how many Ravnica sets there have been; Return to Ravnica was the block before (or after?) Khans of Tarkir? Whereas all these Ravnica precons that you use in Arena are from... the more recent Ravnica?
Return to Ravnica was before Theros, which was before Tarkir.
The Ravnicas in Arena are from Guilds of Ravnica (not be confused with Ravnica, City of Guilds), Ravnica Allegiance, and War of the Spark. Which are the most recent sets set on Ravnica, coming just after Dominaria.
Azorius Control with Dream Trawler maybe
I agree. I think Dream Trawler.is going to show its true power.
Anyway, I do wonder how much of a burden attempting to develop/balance with this many formats in mind is, as I gather bannings have been a bit more aggressive as of late. I know they used to just sort of shrug and say "eh, whatever happens in Eternal formats happens."
On Wizard's shitty site, you have to go the 'All Sets' page, which only show the most recent products and then scroll all the way down the page to the bar saying 'Looking For Older Products?' and that one will get you to a list of all sets.
War of the Spark takes place on Ravnica, so I count it as a Ravnica set.
No, but seriously, the deck is very good.
And the oven seems like the better piece to ban anyway, if we care about neutering the archetype rather than just removing a whole bunch of triggers.
What's that set marker?
Is the cat escaping?
That is the jumpstart market fucked up by jpeg compression on the screenshot or low quality settings.
Well, it's what the banned screen presented me.
Technically War of the Spark is not a Ravnica set, so only eight.
Yeah okay. The common jumpstart icon is unintelligible when shrunk.
It seemed a little harsh that they made it so queuing up as bant reformats your hard drive but Im sure they had a lot of data backing the decision.
That's definitely an odd sequence of events as I'm not sure why "Cancel" would show up in that situation, but to undo tapping a land for mana you hit "z".
APAB
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper. The only eternal format that they design & develop for is Commander.
They still ban cards in those formats (see: Lurrus) but not that often.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
They definitely design cards targeted at eternal formats, such as:
but I doubt it gets much or any playtest attention. Just kind of "don't make it obviously broken & see what happens."
Honest question: did WotC explicitly say that they designed Lavinia with Legacy or Vintage in mind?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
To be fair, I can think of at least one card that was undeniably designed for Legacy: Flusterstorm, and it was a big reason that the Commander deck it came in (Zedruu, IIRC) was hard to find. So maybe I should temper my comment above from "They don't design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper" to "They rarely design or develop cards around Legacy, Vintage, or Pauper."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That I remember Extended (and the early player-run pre-Modern format) made the existence of both Pioneer and Historic a bit surprising, as I thought this degree of format-splintering was something they were dedicated to avoiding.
Opponent: mills down to zero
Opponent: plays Island
Me: Swamp, cast a 1-mana dork
Opponent: draws, plays Island
Me: Swamp, attack, cast a 2-mana dork
Opponent: draws, plays Island
Me, Swamp, attack, with just my 1-mana dork to see what the hell this guy is doing. cast a 3-mana dork.
Opponent: draws, plays Island
Me, Swamp, attack, with just my 1-mana dork to see what the hell this guy is doing. cast a 4-mana dork.
Opponent: draws, plays Treasure Hunt. Finds a Thassa's Oracle and a Mystic Sanctuary, puts the Treasure Hunt on top of his deck.
Me: oh, I see. Agonizing Remorse that Thassa's Oracle.
Opponent: *scoop*
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
My rares are Nyleth of the Dire Hunt and Brash Taunter.
Yes, in a limited format, that is as absurd as it sounds.
E: Currently 8-1 to it, only loss was when somebody drew a clutch baneslayer angel after I already blew removal (perhaps foolishly) to kill two fatties at once with a forced block after theft.
Edit: as far as where it sits in eternal formats and how much it costs and such, not literally are the same with the same decks. For someone who has started playing relatively recently the difference between a 25 year old card and a 15 year old card is pretty similar: they’re both old as fuck cards
Also True-Name Nemesis, which was even more recent.
A really good aggro deck is almost always precisely tuned to kill you exactly on turn 3 or 4 or something I find. A few points of lifelink sometimes messes the well tuned ones up completely, espescially if they rely on creature based evasion like flying or 'can't be blocked' to kill you.
TNN was designed for multiplayer (Commander) where it's protection isn't oppressive.
TNN was more of a "oh shit that's good in Legacy" than designed for it.
I did get double vamps tonight. Somehow. It's a pretty good deck, though I still got blown out by Teferi Mill.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
Sure, if your budget for a deck is $200, then it doesn't matter if a format costs $500 to get into or $5000 to get into. They're both unattainable.
But there's still an order of magnitude difference.
You can get into legacy at relatively low levels of expense, as long as you are willing to play a very limited selection of low-cost archetypes (example: red burn or merfolk) which are mostly tier-2 decks or worse, or you are willing to play a deck that runs a sub-optimal mana base. But competitive legacy decks require multiple lands & mana rocks from the reserved list that will set you back hundreds of dollars per card. A legacy deck with original duals will always outperform a deck using shocks. Legacy elves gets a huge boost from Gaea's Cradle. Storm gets a huge boost from Lion's Eye Diamond. Anybody who loses to aggro gets a huge boost from Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. etc.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I made a very dumb, very fun death touch deck
T4 staring down a Drakath in the graveyard.
Desperation play: Debuff own Alseid.
+2 to Starfield Mystic, 2 cards off Hateful Eilodons.
Glitters on Mystic, swing with 7/7 (& 1 Eilodon)
T5 Draketh swings, kills Eilodons.
T5 Attach the two debuffs I now have on Draketh, swing for lethal with 9/9