Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I legit liked Cataclysm. Then I hated MOP. Then I liked the start of WOD but hated its end. Then I skipped Legion. Then I liked the start of BFA and hated its end.
All this to say there are different audiences for each part of WoW.
I suspect a big factor in enjoyment with some expansions came down to what you mained. I hated Cataclysm because I was a ret paladin main and as much as the spec needed something like holy power, what we had in Cataclysm made the spec feel janky as fuck. Granted, RL reasons prevented me from playing for the whole expansion and playing the two expansion afterwards, so maybe it got better at the end of firelands. Didn't really get back into the game until Legion and playing the spec felt great at that point because they had set things up properly. BfA was more of the same of what Legion had pretty much. Though the spec wasn't as nearly brainless as people made out to be in Legion because one did actually need to pay attention to procs and timers and know the priority of what to push, which isn't really any different than any other spec at the time. I know there was a joke about how one could randomly hit buttons for ret because there were a ton of people still butthurt both over the spec being overtuned at expansion start and the fact that it was no longer a joke spec they could ignore. Thing was randomly hitting buttons would yield subpar dps, just like it would with any other dps spec.
I suspect they'll do some rotation with the first three expansions. There was going to be a shelf life with WoW classic because people would complete the content and then a good chunk would get bored and go find something else to play. The advantaged of a rotation is they can keep people's interest and then let something sit fallow for a few years, to the point that interest will be renewed and then rerun it. Not sure if there is enough interest going beyond WotLK though, that the big question. There is interest for TBC and WotLK, like I'd be shocked if there wasn't a ton of interest for either.
I know I would be tempted by a WotLK classic run because IMO that was the high point of the game. There was stuff for both casuals and hardcore gamers to enjoy. You could gear out a main and an alt or two, while still having a life. I do believe every spec could find a spot in raids. Also hybrids still felt unique, a dps hybrid spec wouldn't be able to cut it as a healer or a tank, but you had the tools to pull spot tanking and healing if things went south in such a way, that it made sense to have a hybrid dps do so to secure a kill. Felt like in Cataclysm, Legion and BfA, that was pretty solidly killed. I know ret had a bonkers group heal in BfA but that was pretty much a once in a while thing, not a "oh shit, the healer died and we're really close to killing the boss. Let me throw out heals, even though this will add 30s to the fight because that's a better option than having to wipe and restart from the beginning." Really felt WotLK was the last expansion that rewarded hybrid players for knowing how to use their entire class kit well. My issue, I don't really want to support the company as it operates currently.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited August 2020
The reasons why I liked Cataclysm:
- Blizzard was actually following through on a promise made before Vanilla launched to update the game world over time! The ONLY such big promise to have been met.
- The talent trees got reasonably trimmed down while still being a point based system, yay.
- They also got rid of the tiny bonus type talents; +1% per point type stuff. I hate that stuff. I know it works out in raid math, but in my solo play moments wtf it's meaningless.
- The decision to give you a core spec ability right at level 10 was a great idea. Combined with the above there was still incremental gains to look forward to.
- Mastery got introduced. While it wasn't great back then, it's probably the one aspect of the game that has actually been consistently getting better over time. Yes I'm implying Shadowlands Mastery is better than Cataclysm Mastery.
- Shaman totems got way easier to use and stomp down. As a shaman main by that point YAY.
- An Aspect was getting its own expansion, as it should've been for Malygos who was sadly an entry-level raid boss for an expansion. He was done dirty.
People tend to not like my take about 1% type bonuses. I get their importance in end-game content, but people should also understand the whole power-fantasy thing and how sometimes talents (like some in Classic) really fail that point. And it's a valid reason why people play games like this. There's no correct answer here overall and trying to fulfill both things is a pain in the ass on the development end.
Also while Cataclysm is my favorite expansion that doesn't mean I'm gonna sit here and defend its faults so I don't need the @'ing about "WELL WHAT ABOUT X WHY DO YOU LIKE THAT" - I don't, it's why I didn't list it among things I like. Because I didn't like it.
Cata was the last time I was in a raiding guild. I remember not really liking the launch zones, dungeons, or raids, liking the Firelands world content and raid, and then not liking the Dragon Soul dungeons and raid. We got our rogue the legendary dagger in Dragon Soul then our guild basically collapsed.
One of the things I generally dislike about D3 is how equipment drives builds and there isn't really any variation. If you're wearing this set, you're using these 5-6 abilities.
Retail WoW seems to have likewise stripped away any character variance, and the obliteration of actual choice in the talent trees is a part of that. Don't get me wrong; 99% of raiding hunters in vanilla are 20/31/0 with a cat and use the same three abilities. But in TBC you could go BM, MM or SV and be useful and do different things. And in Cata you could bring all sorts of different pets with raid buffs to cover whatever you were missing in 10s.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
+2
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
The server sterica mention was a great idea and executed well but fell into a lot of the same issues those private servers have with the people running them.
Still I know I tried it out and it was really neat. Only thing is the biggest draw to custom builds was pvp with them and there just wasn’t enough players to enjoy that.
I reupped my sub for the first time since i got tired while leveling in warlords because my new GPU is giving me free shadowlands but i'm currently in a weird place where the prepatch is pretty close so i should probably just wait for the new leveling system/rolling the BFA content into the base there, so I guess i should mess around in classic. do any of the PA guilds have room for people that might not be the super serious endgame player?
The reasons why I liked Cataclysm:
- Blizzard was actually following through on a promise made before Vanilla launched to update the game world over time! The ONLY such big promise to have been met.
- The talent trees got reasonably trimmed down while still being a point based system, yay.
- They also got rid of the tiny bonus type talents; +1% per point type stuff. I hate that stuff. I know it works out in raid math, but in my solo play moments wtf it's meaningless.
- The decision to give you a core spec ability right at level 10 was a great idea. Combined with the above there was still incremental gains to look forward to.
- Mastery got introduced. While it wasn't great back then, it's probably the one aspect of the game that has actually been consistently getting better over time. Yes I'm implying Shadowlands Mastery is better than Cataclysm Mastery.
- Shaman totems got way easier to use and stomp down. As a shaman main by that point YAY.
- An Aspect was getting its own expansion, as it should've been for Malygos who was sadly an entry-level raid boss for an expansion. He was done dirty.
People tend to not like my take about 1% type bonuses. I get their importance in end-game content, but people should also understand the whole power-fantasy thing and how sometimes talents (like some in Classic) really fail that point. And it's a valid reason why people play games like this. There's no correct answer here overall and trying to fulfill both things is a pain in the ass on the development end.
Also while Cataclysm is my favorite expansion that doesn't mean I'm gonna sit here and defend its faults so I don't need the @'ing about "WELL WHAT ABOUT X WHY DO YOU LIKE THAT" - I don't, it's why I didn't list it among things I like. Because I didn't like it.
or maybe I forgot
I agree and not agree with much you have said
The Talent trees Classic talents have problems from meh talents to just bad ones as well as the glut. The Cata talent system has it's own problems that came around in time
I don't know about Shamans I created mine in Cata this is why I made one in classic to see how they played then
I just disliked how personally affliction got boned in Cata as I had to run around as demonology to do a lot of dailies and such as affliction early cata sucked
I don't like how a lot of lore characters are turned into loot pinatas or slot machines
Only got 3 attempts on C'Thun before we had to wrap it up for the evening. It was ... not as difficult as I remember it being in Vanilla, lol. Took him down into Phase 2. I'm hoping we'll be able to finish him off next week.
The pre-C'Thun trash is definitely fucking annoying. I wouldn't say we struggled with them, but it's just a lot of
"oh cool, now I'm running away for a thousand hours and I can't break it with Berserker Rage."
The pre-C'Thun trash is definitely fucking annoying. I wouldn't say we struggled with them, but it's just a lot of
"oh cool, now I'm running away for a thousand hours and I can't break it with Berserker Rage."
We spent like an hour on it before we had to call it. There's definitely more to work on there. We somehow managed a 4 mindslayer pack, but the 3 mindslayer+1 slayer pack gave us a lot of issues. Not being able to interrupt mind flay sucked. All our tanks just kept immediately getting MC'd on pull and we couldn't get anything under control.
We eventually got past that pull, but we didn't get a chance to turn in our weapons or see cthun before we had to call it.
The pre-C'Thun trash is definitely fucking annoying. I wouldn't say we struggled with them, but it's just a lot of
"oh cool, now I'm running away for a thousand hours and I can't break it with Berserker Rage."
god what an annoying set of trash that was
can't wait for military wing of naxx
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
A tip, though you might be doing this already. Whoever is tanking the Champion should have their back against a wall
Yep, we definitely had that.
It got better after a few attempts. I think everyone was just expecting to have an easy time after how difficult/long of a fight twin emps was.
Are there tools for the bug packs that alliance has and horde doesn't?
Like we would pull them and they would just barrel past/mc tanks, and sit in the ranged/healer group spamming mindflay. They died fast enough, but that just meant there wasn't time to avoid the mana burn/fear.
Posts
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Not on dialup lol
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Also post hotfix
I suspect a big factor in enjoyment with some expansions came down to what you mained. I hated Cataclysm because I was a ret paladin main and as much as the spec needed something like holy power, what we had in Cataclysm made the spec feel janky as fuck. Granted, RL reasons prevented me from playing for the whole expansion and playing the two expansion afterwards, so maybe it got better at the end of firelands. Didn't really get back into the game until Legion and playing the spec felt great at that point because they had set things up properly. BfA was more of the same of what Legion had pretty much. Though the spec wasn't as nearly brainless as people made out to be in Legion because one did actually need to pay attention to procs and timers and know the priority of what to push, which isn't really any different than any other spec at the time. I know there was a joke about how one could randomly hit buttons for ret because there were a ton of people still butthurt both over the spec being overtuned at expansion start and the fact that it was no longer a joke spec they could ignore. Thing was randomly hitting buttons would yield subpar dps, just like it would with any other dps spec.
I suspect they'll do some rotation with the first three expansions. There was going to be a shelf life with WoW classic because people would complete the content and then a good chunk would get bored and go find something else to play. The advantaged of a rotation is they can keep people's interest and then let something sit fallow for a few years, to the point that interest will be renewed and then rerun it. Not sure if there is enough interest going beyond WotLK though, that the big question. There is interest for TBC and WotLK, like I'd be shocked if there wasn't a ton of interest for either.
I know I would be tempted by a WotLK classic run because IMO that was the high point of the game. There was stuff for both casuals and hardcore gamers to enjoy. You could gear out a main and an alt or two, while still having a life. I do believe every spec could find a spot in raids. Also hybrids still felt unique, a dps hybrid spec wouldn't be able to cut it as a healer or a tank, but you had the tools to pull spot tanking and healing if things went south in such a way, that it made sense to have a hybrid dps do so to secure a kill. Felt like in Cataclysm, Legion and BfA, that was pretty solidly killed. I know ret had a bonkers group heal in BfA but that was pretty much a once in a while thing, not a "oh shit, the healer died and we're really close to killing the boss. Let me throw out heals, even though this will add 30s to the fight because that's a better option than having to wipe and restart from the beginning." Really felt WotLK was the last expansion that rewarded hybrid players for knowing how to use their entire class kit well. My issue, I don't really want to support the company as it operates currently.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
- Blizzard was actually following through on a promise made before Vanilla launched to update the game world over time! The ONLY such big promise to have been met.
- The talent trees got reasonably trimmed down while still being a point based system, yay.
- They also got rid of the tiny bonus type talents; +1% per point type stuff. I hate that stuff. I know it works out in raid math, but in my solo play moments wtf it's meaningless.
- The decision to give you a core spec ability right at level 10 was a great idea. Combined with the above there was still incremental gains to look forward to.
- Mastery got introduced. While it wasn't great back then, it's probably the one aspect of the game that has actually been consistently getting better over time. Yes I'm implying Shadowlands Mastery is better than Cataclysm Mastery.
- Shaman totems got way easier to use and stomp down. As a shaman main by that point YAY.
- An Aspect was getting its own expansion, as it should've been for Malygos who was sadly an entry-level raid boss for an expansion. He was done dirty.
People tend to not like my take about 1% type bonuses. I get their importance in end-game content, but people should also understand the whole power-fantasy thing and how sometimes talents (like some in Classic) really fail that point. And it's a valid reason why people play games like this. There's no correct answer here overall and trying to fulfill both things is a pain in the ass on the development end.
Also while Cataclysm is my favorite expansion that doesn't mean I'm gonna sit here and defend its faults so I don't need the @'ing about "WELL WHAT ABOUT X WHY DO YOU LIKE THAT" - I don't, it's why I didn't list it among things I like. Because I didn't like it.
Retail WoW seems to have likewise stripped away any character variance, and the obliteration of actual choice in the talent trees is a part of that. Don't get me wrong; 99% of raiding hunters in vanilla are 20/31/0 with a cat and use the same three abilities. But in TBC you could go BM, MM or SV and be useful and do different things. And in Cata you could bring all sorts of different pets with raid buffs to cover whatever you were missing in 10s.
Flexibility is cool.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
and subsequently rolled a 1 on the head
next time!
yeah but, make it better tho
Still I know I tried it out and it was really neat. Only thing is the biggest draw to custom builds was pvp with them and there just wasn’t enough players to enjoy that.
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Huh, would not have called you secretly being Boost.
thanks!
We still killed them first nyahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok it took us three weeks
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
I agree and not agree with much you have said
The Talent trees Classic talents have problems from meh talents to just bad ones as well as the glut. The Cata talent system has it's own problems that came around in time
I don't know about Shamans I created mine in Cata this is why I made one in classic to see how they played then
I just disliked how personally affliction got boned in Cata as I had to run around as demonology to do a lot of dailies and such as affliction early cata sucked
I don't like how a lot of lore characters are turned into loot pinatas or slot machines
Hey we killed them tonight too!
That trash afterwards though is roooough. I need to figure out how to make that cleaner.
"oh cool, now I'm running away for a thousand hours and I can't break it with Berserker Rage."
We spent like an hour on it before we had to call it. There's definitely more to work on there. We somehow managed a 4 mindslayer pack, but the 3 mindslayer+1 slayer pack gave us a lot of issues. Not being able to interrupt mind flay sucked. All our tanks just kept immediately getting MC'd on pull and we couldn't get anything under control.
We eventually got past that pull, but we didn't get a chance to turn in our weapons or see cthun before we had to call it.
god what an annoying set of trash that was
can't wait for military wing of naxx
Yep, we definitely had that.
It got better after a few attempts. I think everyone was just expecting to have an easy time after how difficult/long of a fight twin emps was.
chaos without danger is merely looney toons
Inquisitor77: Rius, you are Sisyphus and melee Wizard is your boulder
Tube: This must be what it felt like to be an Iraqi when Saddam was killed
Bookish Stickers - Mrs. Rius' Etsy shop with bumper stickers and vinyl decals.
Like we would pull them and they would just barrel past/mc tanks, and sit in the ranged/healer group spamming mindflay. They died fast enough, but that just meant there wasn't time to avoid the mana burn/fear.