In addition, the underlying wish that nations set aside politics is great, but when setting aside those politics result in the tacit approval of human rights violations, that isn't really setting aside politics at all.
Uh could you explain this?
Still waiting. How is agreeing to let athletes compete on a world stage a tacit approval of human rights violations?
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SerpentSometimes Vancouver, BC, sometimes Brisbane, QLDRegistered Userregular
In addition, the underlying wish that nations set aside politics is great, but when setting aside those politics result in the tacit approval of human rights violations, that isn't really setting aside politics at all.
Uh could you explain this?
Still waiting. How is agreeing to let athletes compete on a world stage a tacit approval of human rights violations?
There's a decent argument for it in a spoilered section on page 2. I could come up with a more succinct but similiar argument as well.
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GoslingLooking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered Userregular
Okay, so the object is to get attention more than getting China to change directly.
Look around. Attention is being gotten in spades now, and nobody is boycotting a damn thing. I've seen Olympic protest stories in the media pretty much ever since the torch got lit in Olympia. I've already seen more protests in the opening few days of this relay than I've seen in any previous relay period. You let the relay play out like this and you'll have all the attention you want.
Is someone actually arguing for a boycott?
I mean, I gave my opinion last page:
A boycott, on the other hand, is pointless and stupid. Just TALKING about the boycott accomplishes as much as a boycott ever would.
Talk to Serpent.
Gosling on
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
No, I meant it'd be too easy for the general public to ignore the arm bands. China is gonna ignore anything we do. The reason the protests are any good is because they actually get the publics attention. Arm Bands or shit like that are easily overlooked and ignored.
Actually I'd say that omnipresent armbands at the various events and medalling ceremonies over the course of the games would be more likely to get attention than the protests. These are flashes in the pan that'll be out of the news in 2 cycles. Less than that if something important happens. People constantly seeing it would at least get as much 'the black armband represents support for a free Tibet' mention as the news coverage of the protests.
Agreed. China really does not want to be embarrassed in August - and this is exactly something that would embarrass the government. A lot.
Now, whether it would be right to embarrass China to such a degree is another matter altogether.
Now, whether it would be right to embarrass China to such a degree is another matter altogether.
What do you mean by that? I can't see anything wrong with it. Unless you're talking about potential repercussions because China is pissed off. In which case it would just be essential to get as many athletes from as many countries as possible to join in. The more countries that are involved the less China is able to throw its weight around if it gets all pissy.
Now, whether it would be right to embarrass China to such a degree is another matter altogether.
What do you mean by that? I can't see anything wrong with it. Unless you're talking about potential repercussions because China is pissed off. In which case it would just be essential to get as many athletes from as many countries as possible to join in. The more countries that are involved the less China is able to throw its weight around if it gets all pissy.
Pissing them off is one thing. Alienating them and making rapprochement and dialogue difficult another. However, I do also think that some of the antagonism has its origins in racism and trade-issues (like I mentioned on the first page).
I'm more trying to separate the Chinese people from their government, and I feel that they ought to be spared the embarrassment. The developing world, and the world outside of North America and Europe has been historically excluded from playing host to the games. Suddenly, when China finally has its opportunity it is placed under much more scrutiny than other hosts have been.
I there's precedent to not boycotting the games. The oldest precedent would be that the ancient Olympics were only canceled when a war with a major third party made attendance impossible. Besides this, all parties would show up even if at war. They even let Sparta attend, and they were nuts!
In modern times, the best precedent would be Russia showing up for the 1980 Winter Olympics despite the fact that we had until shortly before been supporting the Shah, a regime so despicable that the Iranian Revolution was seen as an improvement.
And why isn't anybody complaining about Xinjiang yet? If I was a middle-easterner, I'd be yelling wtf to high heaven (yes, god communicates by email and text-message, what's your point?).
Ultimately, the only way to motivate is money (well, there's violence, but mostly because violence is expensive.)
Education doesn't work, because the people who care about knowledge already have it, and those who have it but aren't acting to keep the money away just don't care, and are unlikely to change their opinion until someone like Oprah gets pissy about it and gives them their opinion and actually keeps it up, which they probably won't, because of money.
The protesters, I expect, are hoping that their protests will hinder money flow in some way, presuming they have even a clue on what works in the real world.
edit: Weren't there a bunch of athletes who came out in support of the protests and boycotts and whatnot? Those guys seem to have a certain set of priorities that differs from what you are suggesting. I'm not sure if these are mythical athletes i'm inventing in my head though. I was able to find an article about German athletes 'considering' it.
If the athletes themselves wish to boycott, that's completely different. In the end, it is their dream at risk here, and I think they should make the call. If they wish to stay home, that is their decision. I just don't think that decision should be made for them.
Agree.
And why are we assuming that the athletes can't find their own form of protest against injustice in the Games themselves?
^ A much more powerful image than if black athletes had boycotted the US Olympic team.
Well, they seem to be spending a bit trying to deal with brits with fire extinguishers.
Ok I've given this one some thought and I find this type of protest to be pretty damn repulsive. There's protesting China, but that seems more like it's protesting the concept of the Olympics. That seems like it means something quite different - I mean - wars go on truces for the olympic games. It may not be a permanent peace, but that people stop fighting seems pretty damn significant.
Arm bands would be a pretty bitchin' way actually. Especially if there were enough of them that they were near omnipresent on the winner's stand. Pictures of every trio of winners consisting of the world champions wearing armbands declaring China's government a bunch of rights violating jackasses would get the message across rather well.
Also, in this morning's news it's possible the torch might not even make it through San Diego since apparently protestors are already prestaging to include a massive flag that they managed to get draped across a bridge there. Should that happen then it's likely the world tour will be canceled altogether according to CNN.
Edit: Specifically the goldengate bridge at it's actually kind of impressive if you can find video of it.
Also, in this morning's news it's possible the torch might not even make it through San Diego since apparently protestors are already prestaging to include a massive flag that they managed to get draped across a bridge there. Should that happen then it's likely the world tour will be canceled altogether according to CNN.
Edit: Specifically the goldengate bridge at it's actually kind of impressive if you can find video of it.
I don't see how blowing out the torch is a good form of protest, at all.
Holding out a sign as the torch goes by so you get your message on TV seems acceptable. Why attack the torch itself?
Also, in this morning's news it's possible the torch might not even make it through San Diego since apparently protestors are already prestaging to include a massive flag that they managed to get draped across a bridge there. Should that happen then it's likely the world tour will be canceled altogether according to CNN.
Edit: Specifically the goldengate bridge at it's actually kind of impressive if you can find video of it.
I don't see how blowing out the torch is a good form of protest, at all.
Holding out a sign as the torch goes by so you get your message on TV seems acceptable. Why attack the torch itself?
Also, in this morning's news it's possible the torch might not even make it through San Diego since apparently protestors are already prestaging to include a massive flag that they managed to get draped across a bridge there. Should that happen then it's likely the world tour will be canceled altogether according to CNN.
Edit: Specifically the goldengate bridge at it's actually kind of impressive if you can find video of it.
I don't see how blowing out the torch is a good form of protest, at all.
Holding out a sign as the torch goes by so you get your message on TV seems acceptable. Why attack the torch itself?
Signs are really easy to ignore.
But attacking the torch bearer and stopping the world tour of the torch, a longstanding tradition with no real political import other than "hey all these countries worked together!" is more productive?
Also, in this morning's news it's possible the torch might not even make it through San Diego since apparently protestors are already prestaging to include a massive flag that they managed to get draped across a bridge there. Should that happen then it's likely the world tour will be canceled altogether according to CNN.
Edit: Specifically the goldengate bridge at it's actually kind of impressive if you can find video of it.
I don't see how blowing out the torch is a good form of protest, at all.
Holding out a sign as the torch goes by so you get your message on TV seems acceptable. Why attack the torch itself?
Signs are really easy to ignore.
But attacking the torch bearer and stopping the world tour of the torch, a longstanding tradition with no real political import other than "hey all these countries worked together!" is more productive?
It's not ignorable. So, yes, it is productive, if your goal is to get attention.
Also, in this morning's news it's possible the torch might not even make it through San Diego since apparently protestors are already prestaging to include a massive flag that they managed to get draped across a bridge there. Should that happen then it's likely the world tour will be canceled altogether according to CNN.
Edit: Specifically the goldengate bridge at it's actually kind of impressive if you can find video of it.
I don't see how blowing out the torch is a good form of protest, at all.
Holding out a sign as the torch goes by so you get your message on TV seems acceptable. Why attack the torch itself?
Signs are really easy to ignore.
Not if you're running with them along with the torch bearer.
...and if they're on fire.
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GoslingLooking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered Userregular
Though Jacques Rogge has been compelled to speak up:
Jacques Rogge, the IOC's president, took the unusual step of publicly questioning Chinese policy in Tibet when he addressed Olympic delegates in Beijing. "I am very concerned with the international situation and what is happening," he said. "The torch relay has been targeted. The IOC has expressed its serious concern and calls for a rapid peaceful resolution in Tibet." At a press conference in Beijing torch relay organisers condemned the actions of what it described as a "small number of pro-Tibet independence activists" and said local people in London "strongly condemned the attempt to sabotage the torch relay".
Gosling on
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
And dammit, we won't get to find out what other crazy shenanigans Americans would have pulled had the torch made it here. This was turning out to be one of the more entertaining Olympic games.
We got at least one good picture out of it though.
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GoslingLooking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered Userregular
Arm bands would be a pretty bitchin' way actually. Especially if there were enough of them that they were near omnipresent on the winner's stand. Pictures of every trio of winners consisting of the world champions wearing armbands declaring China's government a bunch of rights violating jackasses would get the message across rather well.
Just heard on ESPN what the procedure there would be:
You can't wear buttons or armbands or any of that stuff; just your uni. But, if you are asked your opinion on Tibet or whatever other topic by a reporter or anyone else, be it before or after your event, it's open season. So, while you're actually on the field competing or accepting a medal, check it at the door, but once someone shoves a microphone in your face after you've just won and are still catching your breath, feel free to unload.
If I'm a sideline reporter, I know how I'm spending MY Olympics. (And it gives us a powerful incentive to go compete: the more protesting nations win, the more reporters surround those athletes, and the more protesting national delegations get to verbally emasculate China in front of a captive audience. What's China going to do, cut NBC's mike?)
Gosling on
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
i wonder if china will bring down their massive censoring internet firewall around shanghai for the olympics or will journalists have to bring satellite internet capabilities
I think it would be hilarious if the authorities were all concentrating on the European and American athletes, and the Algerian team came out of left field and started yelling about Xinjiang.
They were kicked out and (I think) stripped of their medals.
Meaning the white man (second place) wins again! Yeah baby!
Nah, they kept their medals - they were just kicked out of the Olympic village.
Interestingly enough, the Australian was in on it too and wore a button for the same group that advocated either a boycott or acts of protest by black athletes. He caught lots of shit when he went home, though not nearly as bad as Carlos and Smith did.
Shryke: you mean in Australia? He basically was shunned by the national track team and never got to compete again. Carlos and Smith were attacked from all sides and faced more than a few death threats.
Uugh... I hope China razes Tibet to the ground just to spite all these protestors.
See, this shit right here is why America fails.
Meh, go easy on 'em.
ArcticXC just sounds your typical insecure 15-16 year old kid. Someone completely unfamiliar with the world who has been led to believe that misanthropy is just way cool. They'll (probably) grow out of it.
They wear bright blue tracksuits and Beijing Olympic organizers call them "flame attendants." But a military bearing hints at their true pedigree: paramilitary police sent by Beijing to guard the Olympic flame during its journey around the world.
Yolaine De La Bigne, a French environmental journalist who was a torchbearer in Paris, told The Associated Press she tried to wear a headband with a Tibetan flag, but the Chinese agents ripped it away from her.
Shryke: you mean in Australia? He basically was shunned by the national track team and never got to compete again. Carlos and Smith were attacked from all sides and faced more than a few death threats.
No, I mean what'd they do to "deserve" the attacks.
Shryke: you mean in Australia? He basically was shunned by the national track team and never got to compete again. Carlos and Smith were attacked from all sides and faced more than a few death threats.
No, I mean what'd they do to "deserve" the attacks.
They wear bright blue tracksuits and Beijing Olympic organizers call them "flame attendants." But a military bearing hints at their true pedigree: paramilitary police sent by Beijing to guard the Olympic flame during its journey around the world.
Yolaine De La Bigne, a French environmental journalist who was a torchbearer in Paris, told The Associated Press she tried to wear a headband with a Tibetan flag, but the Chinese agents ripped it away from her.
yowza
i found this bit interesting though, learn something new every day
"The Olympic flame wasn't part of the ancient games, and the torch relay didn't become a fixture in the modern Olympics until the 1936 Berlin Games, when it was part of the Nazi pageantry that promoted Hitler's beliefs of Aryan supremacy in the world of sports."
Shryke: you mean in Australia? He basically was shunned by the national track team and never got to compete again. Carlos and Smith were attacked from all sides and faced more than a few death threats.
No, I mean what'd they do to "deserve" the attacks.
Shryke: you mean in Australia? He basically was shunned by the national track team and never got to compete again. Carlos and Smith were attacked from all sides and faced more than a few death threats.
No, I mean what'd they do to "deserve" the attacks.
what you see them doing in the picture
Holding up your hand is bad now?
I don't know, my brother expressed the same sentiments a night ago "man just look at what the fuck the Tibetans have been doing". Media reporting on the plight of Tibet has been sparse enough that I'm having to explain the fairly long history of culture bombing China has been doing to Tibet and hence why they've pretty much gone nuts now because they probably won't get another chance when it'll make the slightest difference (alternatively China would otherwise take the gloves off and we'd probably never hear about it).
EDIT: That said, could someone point me at a resource that explains why the fuck China is so big on trying to nuke out Tibetan culture in the first place? There is a whole lot of systemic things that country does which I just do not understand why they bother in the first place. The whole thing with Falun Gong is even more mysterious to me.
Shryke: you mean in Australia? He basically was shunned by the national track team and never got to compete again. Carlos and Smith were attacked from all sides and faced more than a few death threats.
No, I mean what'd they do to "deserve" the attacks.
what you see them doing in the picture
Holding up your hand is bad now?
Black Power salute during the civil rights era.
How can you not have known that? Hell, forget history classse, have you watched Forrest Gump?
Posts
Still waiting. How is agreeing to let athletes compete on a world stage a tacit approval of human rights violations?
There's a decent argument for it in a spoilered section on page 2. I could come up with a more succinct but similiar argument as well.
Now, whether it would be right to embarrass China to such a degree is another matter altogether.
What do you mean by that? I can't see anything wrong with it. Unless you're talking about potential repercussions because China is pissed off. In which case it would just be essential to get as many athletes from as many countries as possible to join in. The more countries that are involved the less China is able to throw its weight around if it gets all pissy.
I'm more trying to separate the Chinese people from their government, and I feel that they ought to be spared the embarrassment. The developing world, and the world outside of North America and Europe has been historically excluded from playing host to the games. Suddenly, when China finally has its opportunity it is placed under much more scrutiny than other hosts have been.
In modern times, the best precedent would be Russia showing up for the 1980 Winter Olympics despite the fact that we had until shortly before been supporting the Shah, a regime so despicable that the Iranian Revolution was seen as an improvement.
And why isn't anybody complaining about Xinjiang yet? If I was a middle-easterner, I'd be yelling wtf to high heaven (yes, god communicates by email and text-message, what's your point?).
Education doesn't work, because the people who care about knowledge already have it, and those who have it but aren't acting to keep the money away just don't care, and are unlikely to change their opinion until someone like Oprah gets pissy about it and gives them their opinion and actually keeps it up, which they probably won't, because of money.
The protesters, I expect, are hoping that their protests will hinder money flow in some way, presuming they have even a clue on what works in the real world.
This is what I'm expecting to happen.
Edit: Specifically the goldengate bridge at it's actually kind of impressive if you can find video of it.
I don't see how blowing out the torch is a good form of protest, at all.
Holding out a sign as the torch goes by so you get your message on TV seems acceptable. Why attack the torch itself?
Signs are really easy to ignore.
But attacking the torch bearer and stopping the world tour of the torch, a longstanding tradition with no real political import other than "hey all these countries worked together!" is more productive?
It's not ignorable. So, yes, it is productive, if your goal is to get attention.
Not if you're running with them along with the torch bearer.
...and if they're on fire.
Though Jacques Rogge has been compelled to speak up:
We got at least one good picture out of it though.
You can't wear buttons or armbands or any of that stuff; just your uni. But, if you are asked your opinion on Tibet or whatever other topic by a reporter or anyone else, be it before or after your event, it's open season. So, while you're actually on the field competing or accepting a medal, check it at the door, but once someone shoves a microphone in your face after you've just won and are still catching your breath, feel free to unload.
If I'm a sideline reporter, I know how I'm spending MY Olympics. (And it gives us a powerful incentive to go compete: the more protesting nations win, the more reporters surround those athletes, and the more protesting national delegations get to verbally emasculate China in front of a captive audience. What's China going to do, cut NBC's mike?)
what?
They were kicked out and (I think) stripped of their medals.
Such a beautiful image.
Meaning the white man (second place) wins again! Yeah baby!
j/k
Interestingly enough, the Australian was in on it too and wore a button for the same group that advocated either a boycott or acts of protest by black athletes. He caught lots of shit when he went home, though not nearly as bad as Carlos and Smith did.
See, this shit right here is why America fails.
Meh, go easy on 'em.
ArcticXC just sounds your typical insecure 15-16 year old kid. Someone completely unfamiliar with the world who has been led to believe that misanthropy is just way cool. They'll (probably) grow out of it.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jHpaflNEZpBBT4fArcZK_OGCxV8QD8VU2T280
They wear bright blue tracksuits and Beijing Olympic organizers call them "flame attendants." But a military bearing hints at their true pedigree: paramilitary police sent by Beijing to guard the Olympic flame during its journey around the world.
Yolaine De La Bigne, a French environmental journalist who was a torchbearer in Paris, told The Associated Press she tried to wear a headband with a Tibetan flag, but the Chinese agents ripped it away from her.
No, I mean what'd they do to "deserve" the attacks.
what you see them doing in the picture
yowza
i found this bit interesting though, learn something new every day
"The Olympic flame wasn't part of the ancient games, and the torch relay didn't become a fixture in the modern Olympics until the 1936 Berlin Games, when it was part of the Nazi pageantry that promoted Hitler's beliefs of Aryan supremacy in the world of sports."
Holding up your hand is bad now?
EDIT: That said, could someone point me at a resource that explains why the fuck China is so big on trying to nuke out Tibetan culture in the first place? There is a whole lot of systemic things that country does which I just do not understand why they bother in the first place. The whole thing with Falun Gong is even more mysterious to me.
Black Power salute during the civil rights era.
How can you not have known that? Hell, forget history classse, have you watched Forrest Gump?