AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
Last time we had a religion vs. non-religious evil people are thread, I was actually on MSN with someone from here proxying arguments through them onto the forum.
I didn't feel like asking the Cat or Thanatos to unban me, so I just argued in proxy.
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I dislike Buddhism because, like any religion, the actual adherents where it is popular have turned it into a dogmatic pile of nonsense, but that's not the real reason
I am really at odds with any spiritual belief that praises retreat and distance from the material world, an abandonment of human things, transcendence, etc etc, which i see as cowardly, dehumanizing, and utterly useless
the only thing worse is the idea of worship, which is a disgusting and dehumanizing thing in itself. it's no wonder pride is the worst mortal sin in Christianity.
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
Your narrow mindset refuses to accept that faith has any positive qualities, that religion has anything worthwhile to contribute. You feel so strongly about this that you insult people who feel differently and attack their beliefs. An obsessive belief on your part that religion and faith have to be destroyed in order for reason to govern science, research and other valuable endeavors is pure ignorance, and is in no way rational or scientific.
Rationality, science, etc. produce results with infinitely greater accuracy than religious reasoning. This is a fact.
So, yeah, it's not ignorance. It's actually the opposite.
What great leaps has science made lately in explaining the purpose of life? What has science taught us about how to live a meaningful life?
Let me introduce you to my friend, Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang...
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
pretty much yeah
although if a dude has some serious complaints about what the establishment of buddhism has done in a lot of countries i think that's a legit belief
I am really at odds with any spiritual belief that praises retreat and distance from the material world, an abandonment of human things, transcendence, etc etc, which i see as cowardly, dehumanizing, and utterly useless
Either you don't know a lot about buddhism, or you're confusing it with taoism, which is the mountain hermit religion.
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
you call it buddhism, I call it marijuana.
potato, potato
let's call the whole thing "a delicious mix of salt and sweet"
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
They matter to me, though. That's what matters. What the hell does my life matter if I don't get what I want?
What great leaps has science made lately in explaining the purpose of life? What has science taught us about how to live a meaningful life?
Reason and science are actually really bad at dealing with spiritual concerns. Your way around this seems to be an insistence that spiritual concerns are of no concern. But you don't get to pick what matters are of concern for others, and when you try and insist on it it makes you sound like a fascist. I prefer to think of you as ignorant in the area of spiritual concerns, but if you'd prefer to be a fascist then that's OK too.
Science does not have a way to deal with something that there is no evidence for whatsoever.
Jeeps, I don't think religion is remotely required to have a purposeful and/or meaningful life.
I'm not religious and my life is purposeful and meaningful.
So uh, there you go.
Uh oh, strawman.
I don't know how you got from "religion helps many people bring purpose and meaning to their lives" to "religion is required to bring purpose and meaning to any life.
Your narrow mindset refuses to accept that faith has any positive qualities, that religion has anything worthwhile to contribute. You feel so strongly about this that you insult people who feel differently and attack their beliefs. An obsessive belief on your part that religion and faith have to be destroyed in order for reason to govern science, research and other valuable endeavors is pure ignorance, and is in no way rational or scientific.
Rationality, science, etc. produce results with infinitely greater accuracy than religious reasoning. This is a fact.
So, yeah, it's not ignorance. It's actually the opposite.
What great leaps has science made lately in explaining the purpose of life? What has science taught us about how to live a meaningful life?
Reason and science are actually really bad at dealing with spiritual concerns. Your way around this seems to be an insistence that spiritual concerns are of no concern. But you don't get to pick what matters are of concern for others, and when you try and insist on it it makes you sound like a fascist. I prefer to think of you as ignorant in the area of spiritual concerns, but if you'd prefer to be a fascist then that's OK too.
Spiritual concerns exist only in the head of the individuals that talk about them, and that's pretty much it. Pick two people and ask them to define that phrase and you'll get two different definitions.
And science infers no purpose or meaning because their is no such thing as purpose or meaning except as an individual perceives it. My purpose is different from your purpose, but it doesn't come from some deity or gnomes or faeries or any of that other crap.
It must be nice to be able to take everything bad about non-religion and say that it is, in fact, religious when you are busy attacking religion.
The irony is that so many of the views of the most ardent evangelical atheists are more like religion than unlike.
I could launch into a vicious diatribe on the prevalence of non-critical thought in modern society but somehow religion might feel it's not included in this analysis nor the greatest perpetrator of its acceptance.
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
They matter to me, though. That's what matters. What the hell does my life matter if I don't get what I want?
But you'll either never get what you want, or get it and then lose it. Either way, you'll end up in the same state.
This isn't to advocate the complete opposite, abandoning ambition and sitting on a couch smoking weed, but there's no lasting hapiness to be found in transitory achievements.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited May 2008
I want a good science fight. Talking about religion is like trying to race snails. You do get somewhere eventually, it just takes 100 pages and involves the word "cock".
What great leaps has science made lately in explaining the purpose of life? What has science taught us about how to live a meaningful life?
Reason and science are actually really bad at dealing with spiritual concerns. Your way around this seems to be an insistence that spiritual concerns are of no concern. But you don't get to pick what matters are of concern for others, and when you try and insist on it it makes you sound like a fascist. I prefer to think of you as ignorant in the area of spiritual concerns, but if you'd prefer to be a fascist then that's OK too.
Science does not have a way to deal with something that there is no evidence for whatsoever.
Of course not. Science is not for that.
Can you not accept that religion and science are two different things, and that they fulfill very different needs for people?
And is anyone actually fucking stupid enough to accuse me of saying that religion can or should substitute for scientific inquiry?
I don't like Buddhism because it seems to be based on the idea that my personal ambitions are a bad thing.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
They matter to me, though. That's what matters. What the hell does my life matter if I don't get what I want?
But you'll either never get what you want, or get it and then lose it. Either way, you'll end up in the same state.
Dead? That's fine, I won't know the difference when I'm a corpse.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
What great leaps has science made lately in explaining the purpose of life? What has science taught us about how to live a meaningful life?
Reason and science are actually really bad at dealing with spiritual concerns. Your way around this seems to be an insistence that spiritual concerns are of no concern. But you don't get to pick what matters are of concern for others, and when you try and insist on it it makes you sound like a fascist. I prefer to think of you as ignorant in the area of spiritual concerns, but if you'd prefer to be a fascist then that's OK too.
Science does not have a way to deal with something that there is no evidence for whatsoever.
Of course not. Science is not for that.
Can you not accept that religion and science are two different things, and that they fulfill very different needs for people?
And is anyone actually fucking stupid enough to accuse me of saying that religion can or should substitute for scientific inquiry?
God I hope no one is that stupid.
jeep correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that religion can or should be substituted for scientific inquiry?
I don't know how you got from "religion helps many people bring purpose and meaning to their lives" to "religion is required to bring purpose and meaning to any life.
What great leaps has science made lately in explaining the purpose of life? What has science taught us about how to live a meaningful life?
That's what you said. In a science versus religion debate, this would seem to indicate that you think religion has made great leaps about explaining the purpose of life or how to lead a meaningful life.
Now, maybe i misinterpreted what you said, but you weren't exactly crystal clear so don't be a dick, k?
Are we including philosophy/sociology/psychology under the veil of sciences? ie, social sciences? If so, science has taught us plenty about leading lives with meaning and purpose. :P
I want a good science fight. Talking about religion is like trying to race snails. You do get somewhere eventually, it just takes 100 pages and involves the word "cock".
I've always wondered if it was technically possible to stab someone to death with your penis.
but some dudes gotta walk with a cane. i'm comfortable admitting that, in many ways, my faith is a crutch i use to function.
but without it, i'd limp along pretty bad.
i've been there, i've done that limpin', and it ain't nice.
now, it's easy for you or anyone else to sit there and say "if you just toss the crutch away, you'll be fine! walk!"
but let me tell you, that ain't how it goes.
So what you're saying is that you agree with the notion that lesser people need to have bullshit fed to them whereas better people can actually live through reality.
Works for me.
Humanism for the ignorant masses, ethical egoism for people who know what the fuck they're doing without being led by the nose.
What great leaps has science made lately in explaining the purpose of life? What has science taught us about how to live a meaningful life?
Reason and science are actually really bad at dealing with spiritual concerns. Your way around this seems to be an insistence that spiritual concerns are of no concern. But you don't get to pick what matters are of concern for others, and when you try and insist on it it makes you sound like a fascist. I prefer to think of you as ignorant in the area of spiritual concerns, but if you'd prefer to be a fascist then that's OK too.
Science does not have a way to deal with something that there is no evidence for whatsoever.
Of course not. Science is not for that.
Can you not accept that religion and science are two different things, and that they fulfill very different needs for people?
And is anyone actually fucking stupid enough to accuse me of saying that religion can or should substitute for scientific inquiry?
God I hope no one is that stupid.
jeep correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that religion can or should be substituted for scientific inquiry?
oh you
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
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I didn't feel like asking the Cat or Thanatos to unban me, so I just argued in proxy.
Good times.
It's not so much that they're bad as that they don't amount to a hill of beans in the long run
Really, if you boil away all the cultural accretion all buddhism says is "Hey, you know how shit is like always changing, most of the shit you stress about turns out to be pointless in the long run, and you're 100% going to die? And you know how people pretend like none of that is true and get all angsty if confronted with reality? If you pulled your head out of your ass and just made your peace with the facts you'd be less stressed about shit".
WHATS SHAKEN HUH?
100:i
taking bets now.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I am really at odds with any spiritual belief that praises retreat and distance from the material world, an abandonment of human things, transcendence, etc etc, which i see as cowardly, dehumanizing, and utterly useless
the only thing worse is the idea of worship, which is a disgusting and dehumanizing thing in itself. it's no wonder pride is the worst mortal sin in Christianity.
you call it buddhism, I call it marijuana.
I'm not religious and my life is purposeful and meaningful.
So uh, there you go.
Let me introduce you to my friend, Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang...
potato, potato
pretty much yeah
although if a dude has some serious complaints about what the establishment of buddhism has done in a lot of countries i think that's a legit belief
there's been some fucked up shit
not as much as say, christianity or islam
but it ain't like buddhism is blameless
The irony is that so many of the views of the most ardent evangelical atheists are more like religion than unlike.
oh dang. We're not doing the improv class in augst as it runs for two weeks for some reason, and that's way too long for us to stay there.
Plannin' to hit NYC at some point though.
i do believe it is a requirement for some people
speaking from personal experience on this one
let's call the whole thing "a delicious mix of salt and sweet"
Look at the discussion we are having tonight, how long ago did people write the bible? Yeah. That didn't have any long lasting effects.
I mean, sure, if you stretch out the long run long enough, the effect depreciates, but, individuals can still have a fucking huge effect.
They matter to me, though. That's what matters. What the hell does my life matter if I don't get what I want?
you're a pretty okay dude
don't you feel like you're lowering yourself? you need something to give meaning to your life that some people don't need? honest question.
Science does not have a way to deal with something that there is no evidence for whatsoever.
Oh, I don't deny that some people want/need/are better off with religion.
I just dislike the notion that religion can improve EVERYBODY. Some people just plain don't need it.
I have become a much better, more fully actualized human being after I shed my religion, so that's just my personal experience.
Uh oh, strawman.
I don't know how you got from "religion helps many people bring purpose and meaning to their lives" to "religion is required to bring purpose and meaning to any life.
I really don't. Nice strawman though.
I'd put it all on me hanging myself in my cell, but I wouldn't want other people that don't deserve it claiming the winnings once I'm dead.
Spiritual concerns exist only in the head of the individuals that talk about them, and that's pretty much it. Pick two people and ask them to define that phrase and you'll get two different definitions.
And science infers no purpose or meaning because their is no such thing as purpose or meaning except as an individual perceives it. My purpose is different from your purpose, but it doesn't come from some deity or gnomes or faeries or any of that other crap.
no.
i can see where you are coming from on this.
some dudes can walk just fine on their own.
but some dudes gotta walk with a cane. i'm comfortable admitting that, in many ways, my faith is a crutch i use to function.
but without it, i'd limp along pretty bad.
i've been there, i've done that limpin', and it ain't nice.
now, it's easy for you or anyone else to sit there and say "if you just toss the crutch away, you'll be fine! walk!"
but let me tell you, that ain't how it goes.
This isn't to advocate the complete opposite, abandoning ambition and sitting on a couch smoking weed, but there's no lasting hapiness to be found in transitory achievements.
not much I can say to that.
I can actually slip into Dungeons and Dragons mythos in a serious religious conversation and the religious people don't notice.
It's pretty hilarious.
Of course not. Science is not for that.
Can you not accept that religion and science are two different things, and that they fulfill very different needs for people?
And is anyone actually fucking stupid enough to accuse me of saying that religion can or should substitute for scientific inquiry?
God I hope no one is that stupid.
Dead? That's fine, I won't know the difference when I'm a corpse.
jeep correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that religion can or should be substituted for scientific inquiry?
That's what you said. In a science versus religion debate, this would seem to indicate that you think religion has made great leaps about explaining the purpose of life or how to lead a meaningful life.
Now, maybe i misinterpreted what you said, but you weren't exactly crystal clear so don't be a dick, k?
Are we including philosophy/sociology/psychology under the veil of sciences? ie, social sciences? If so, science has taught us plenty about leading lives with meaning and purpose. :P
So what you're saying is that you agree with the notion that lesser people need to have bullshit fed to them whereas better people can actually live through reality.
Works for me.
Humanism for the ignorant masses, ethical egoism for people who know what the fuck they're doing without being led by the nose.
oh you
This came to mind just now for some reason.