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A thread about GM'ing Play by Post Games
Horseshoe
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Howdy there ODaM/CF'ers.
Seems we've got a lot of games going right now, which is totally awesome. But sadly many play-by-post games do not last for very long. Verily, they seem doomed to die for a variety of reasons. In this thread we can discuss different ways to run "PbP" games since obviously we all have a lot of fun with this sort of thing. I use words like "verily" when I imagine myself wearing a monocle. Perhaps one day I will become deficient in one of my eyes and make this pompous daydream of mine a solid reality.
Anyway, back on topic. PbP can be a challenging medium for we who are accustomed to the real-time gravity of the tabletop... and is in fact different to the point that playing the same way as we would over a Dorito-laden kitchen table might buy us with a one-way ticket to Failuretown (or perhaps Failuretowne, if you are in Canada or some other place with whimsical spelling). Reasons specific to PbP peculiarities may include:
I have been running two games on this forum for some months now, and have played in several games here too. I figured I'd kick things off with stuff that has worked for me, and ideas of others that I have either stolen or thought were cool.
Anyway, here's 8 things that I thought of:
1) Set clear expectations. This one's pretty well spelled out in Thanatos' post in the forum rules, and it's worth saying again. How often do you expect players to post? What sort of adventures are their characters going to be having? How might you be adjusting the rules to accomodate a PbP game? When people know what they're getting into they are less likely to quit, flake etc. Also, it's a good idea to check in with your players occasionally to make sure they are still interested and if their schedule has changed... or to notify them of any changing expectations in the game.
2) Make sure you can handle the number of players in your game. As the number of players increases, the speed at which the game moves along most likely will decrease. In the first stages of the Clone Wars game I'm running... we got through the first several encounters at an amazing speed due to only having two players. I've tested the waters with "guest" appearances and think the game may eventually be able to accomodate four and keep at a decent pace... but man, I doubt I would want to try more than four.
3) Invisible Castle. Pretty much everyone knows about this already. Many games have a randomization element to them, and this is a great way to confirm your rolls to others by using a third party.
4) Put some effort into maps. If your game is D20 or another system where positioning is important to an encounter, having a clear map that lets everyone know where they are can save a lot of trouble... such as having to ask the question: "hey, can i reach that guy in this round?" Needless to say, maps have to be updated a lot. I made a thread on making maps a while back and probably need to revisit it to answer a question or two.
5) Myth Weavers Character Sheets. Again, this one is pretty well known. Personally, I like having a stat-block in the OOC thread... but dang if these things aren't useful. It's a heck of a lot nicer than slapping together a makeshift text-only character sheet, and usually easier to read.
6) Find ways to simplify while still giving players control. Trickier than it sounds, yeah. Combat in some systems can be kinda oenerous (I'm looking at you, Exalted) and can really slow things to a crawl at times, which could lead to some of the frustrations described earlier. Resolving actions yourself might be expeditious, but unpopular with your players. There are ways to deal with this... and the fact that you're the GM kind of puts the onus on you to figure out how. Here's a few that I and others have come up with as examples (they're basically all going to be D20 references):
8) Be prepared for the work. Just like in real life, you are going to put more effort into this than anyone else. This is a case where the PbP format works in your favor, because you have the time to actually come up with something that might work instead of flying by the seat of your pants when a PC does something that throws a monkey wrench in your precious plot development.
So anyway those are my thoughts... please contribute your own!
Running games on a forum can be a tricky task and I'm sure everyone has good ideas and advice to share.
Seems we've got a lot of games going right now, which is totally awesome. But sadly many play-by-post games do not last for very long. Verily, they seem doomed to die for a variety of reasons. In this thread we can discuss different ways to run "PbP" games since obviously we all have a lot of fun with this sort of thing. I use words like "verily" when I imagine myself wearing a monocle. Perhaps one day I will become deficient in one of my eyes and make this pompous daydream of mine a solid reality.
Anyway, back on topic. PbP can be a challenging medium for we who are accustomed to the real-time gravity of the tabletop... and is in fact different to the point that playing the same way as we would over a Dorito-laden kitchen table might buy us with a one-way ticket to Failuretown (or perhaps Failuretowne, if you are in Canada or some other place with whimsical spelling). Reasons specific to PbP peculiarities may include:
People get bored due to how long it takes for actions to be resolved and the story to move along.
People get frustrated over rules and how they translate to the online setting.
People flake out due to the sometimes transient nature of forum membership and/or posting availability.
Now, as a GM, there are things we can do to allieviate the above issues, for players as well as ourselves.People get frustrated over rules and how they translate to the online setting.
People flake out due to the sometimes transient nature of forum membership and/or posting availability.
I have been running two games on this forum for some months now, and have played in several games here too. I figured I'd kick things off with stuff that has worked for me, and ideas of others that I have either stolen or thought were cool.
Anyway, here's 8 things that I thought of:
1) Set clear expectations. This one's pretty well spelled out in Thanatos' post in the forum rules, and it's worth saying again. How often do you expect players to post? What sort of adventures are their characters going to be having? How might you be adjusting the rules to accomodate a PbP game? When people know what they're getting into they are less likely to quit, flake etc. Also, it's a good idea to check in with your players occasionally to make sure they are still interested and if their schedule has changed... or to notify them of any changing expectations in the game.
2) Make sure you can handle the number of players in your game. As the number of players increases, the speed at which the game moves along most likely will decrease. In the first stages of the Clone Wars game I'm running... we got through the first several encounters at an amazing speed due to only having two players. I've tested the waters with "guest" appearances and think the game may eventually be able to accomodate four and keep at a decent pace... but man, I doubt I would want to try more than four.
3) Invisible Castle. Pretty much everyone knows about this already. Many games have a randomization element to them, and this is a great way to confirm your rolls to others by using a third party.
4) Put some effort into maps. If your game is D20 or another system where positioning is important to an encounter, having a clear map that lets everyone know where they are can save a lot of trouble... such as having to ask the question: "hey, can i reach that guy in this round?" Needless to say, maps have to be updated a lot. I made a thread on making maps a while back and probably need to revisit it to answer a question or two.
5) Myth Weavers Character Sheets. Again, this one is pretty well known. Personally, I like having a stat-block in the OOC thread... but dang if these things aren't useful. It's a heck of a lot nicer than slapping together a makeshift text-only character sheet, and usually easier to read.
6) Find ways to simplify while still giving players control. Trickier than it sounds, yeah. Combat in some systems can be kinda oenerous (I'm looking at you, Exalted) and can really slow things to a crawl at times, which could lead to some of the frustrations described earlier. Resolving actions yourself might be expeditious, but unpopular with your players. There are ways to deal with this... and the fact that you're the GM kind of puts the onus on you to figure out how. Here's a few that I and others have come up with as examples (they're basically all going to be D20 references):
- Put all the enemies on the same initiative count. That way you don't have to post and/or update maps all the dang time: only once per round, just like the players. Makes things so much easier. Usually I will just pick the lowest initiative modifier in the group and roll that.
- Use a fluid initiative order. This way, players aren't waiting on each other. When it's the players turn, they act in the order of whoever posts first. This is one I'm not so hot on, because it sort of eliminates the player's initiative modifiers and I hate to erase parts of the character sheet if I can help it... but I do think it's an ingenious way to deal with the issue of people taking turns in a forum-based game.
- Post enemy statblocks. Or at least some relevant data like hit points, defenses, etc. Yeah, it peels back the GM's screen and removes the mystery of "I wonder how tough that guy is" but it allows the players to know when they killed something so that the next guy doesn't waste an action attacking it. It also allows the players to IC an awesome killing stroke or other final resolution. This is one of the best things a person can IC... please don't take that away from them.
- The "Players Roll All The Dice" variant from D20 is an example of putting more power in the hands of the players, but I'm not sure that it actually speeds things up in all cases. In the case of PC's doing things that an enemy would normally roll a saving throw against it allows the player to resolve it right then and there with what basically amounts to a 'caster level check'. Which is nice for both player and GM.
7) Settle rules disputes quickly. This of course demands some leeway on both sides of the virtual DM's screen. Which nobody trusts in real life either, because for all we know the dude is rolling and writing down whatever he wants. Anyway... rules disputes slow things bad enough in real time... and internet time is like dog years. Something that works for me is to find a way to "fix it in post", or basically keep going and reward the players for it later. In my Star Wars game, when I fuck up and someone calls me on it I'll usually go with "just keep going" and give a guy some force points in a gesture that in a small way offsets my nincompoopery. That kinda thing.- Use a fluid initiative order. This way, players aren't waiting on each other. When it's the players turn, they act in the order of whoever posts first. This is one I'm not so hot on, because it sort of eliminates the player's initiative modifiers and I hate to erase parts of the character sheet if I can help it... but I do think it's an ingenious way to deal with the issue of people taking turns in a forum-based game.
- Post enemy statblocks. Or at least some relevant data like hit points, defenses, etc. Yeah, it peels back the GM's screen and removes the mystery of "I wonder how tough that guy is" but it allows the players to know when they killed something so that the next guy doesn't waste an action attacking it. It also allows the players to IC an awesome killing stroke or other final resolution. This is one of the best things a person can IC... please don't take that away from them.
- The "Players Roll All The Dice" variant from D20 is an example of putting more power in the hands of the players, but I'm not sure that it actually speeds things up in all cases. In the case of PC's doing things that an enemy would normally roll a saving throw against it allows the player to resolve it right then and there with what basically amounts to a 'caster level check'. Which is nice for both player and GM.
8) Be prepared for the work. Just like in real life, you are going to put more effort into this than anyone else. This is a case where the PbP format works in your favor, because you have the time to actually come up with something that might work instead of flying by the seat of your pants when a PC does something that throws a monkey wrench in your precious plot development.
So anyway those are my thoughts... please contribute your own!
Running games on a forum can be a tricky task and I'm sure everyone has good ideas and advice to share.
Horseshoe on
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You're not seeing the issue.
The issue is that if the player does not know the AC of the creature, he doesn't know if he hit it. And if he doesn't know how many hit points it has, he doesn't know whether or not it is dead.
This means that in order to stay updated, the GM would have to make a post after every single player action. If the GM only posts once a round, this also means that a player might be using his action to attack a monster that was already killed by one of the other players, meaning you have to go back and re-do the action.
PbP is already slow by nature... and this bogs things down a lot.
That is a more colorful option, but does not solve the "I got a 15, did I hit him?" slowdown factor.
Anyway, that's a pretty damn definitive list. Even if this thread hadn't drifted under my radar I'd have been hard pressed to contribute anything useful :P
?
Ed has come up with a system that is simple and based around single die rolls... it's extremely well suited to play-by-post and makes for a fast paced and entertaining game!
Exigency out-of-character thread
Exigency in-character thread
but I like this thread
So IRC seems to provide a lot more evenness of opportunity, since everyone is present, and go a lot smoother because the experience can be metered by the GM quite closely.
Events which are urgent don't feel that way in PbP, because everyone needs to be given opportunity to react. Any ideas?
Just some guinness-induced thoughts.
PBPs are a lot more relaxed, and less urgent, which can obviously be a good thing when time is a big issue. Of course some of them can be really quick-fire sometimes, but it's very circumstantial, dependant on your player base and how quickly you can respond to their actions! But they can have an adverse effect on suspense. That runaway train roaring towards the party is a lot less threatening when there's a two hour window between each of the players getting a chance to react...
Anyway re: Flow Management... in general:
It's particularly tough in PbP's because without the chance to immediately react things may just move along and as a player you may be thinking "wait, I wanted to talk to that guy" or as a GM you may be thinking "dammit, they should have talked to that guy" by the time things are moving along.
You kind of just have to learn to go with the flow to a certain degree... it's tough to figure out when to just move things along because you don't have that immediate 'at the table' reaction to things.
Once again, having a smaller number of players can make this easier, because there are fewer people who will have a case of "d'oh! didn't get to post in time!"
Sometimes when you're the GM you just have to up and move things along if they feel like they're dragging, so long as the players don't mind that you occasionally IC an action for them... when I do this in my games I try not to put as few words as possible in a PC's mouth so that I won't offend a player by doing something that is out of character for their guy.
specifically:
Out-of-game time is just not going to be urgent. But you can still have in-game time factors... bomb activates in X rounds, need to reach objective in such-and-such a time, that kinda thing.
But yeah, you lose the ability as a GM at the table to say: okay, you guys have talked enough and you need to do something right now.
But if you have players who understand the differentiation between IC and OOC knowledge, it keeps it manageable. In the case of D20 games, I like to go with "don't try to have your guy make a speech that you can't say out loud in three seconds" in a combat situation... nobody has time to communicate a large amount of information while they're in the middle of a swordfight.
F'rexample:
"Riardon, shoot that Shaman!" is acceptable thing for a fighter to yell out at one of his buddies.
"Riardon, shoot the Shaman because we need to take him out first and make sure you use silver arrows and watch out for that trap ten feet in front of you!" is a bit much for the same fighter to yell out in the midst of battle.
As a player I also have to resist the temptation to get too wordy during combat.
The parallel I try to make is, say, one of those comic frames where people are having a ludicrously long conversation despite the fact both participants appear to be in midair or dodging bullets or similar. It's doable, nobody's going to die or think any less of you, it just doesn't quite gel.
That said, I'm just as guilty as some of my players, as the villain’s monologue has brought me low once or twice: my most favourite player ever once declared his intent to shoot the bad guy when he was in the middle of a long "ha, fools" speech. Admittedly said bad guy was a "diplomatic" villain, in that he wasn't exactly a heavy hitter, but having the evil-CEO archetype grab his suddenly-bleeding shoulder and be absolutely shocked was a great moment.
As for cutting down on waffle and waiting times, I find myself getting into the habit of doing “area transitions” (doors, elevators etc.) as a party event rather than expecting individual posts. It makes me feel like the PbP equivalent of the “you must gather your party before venturing forth” bloke from Baldur’s Gate, but it works- players can still make action posts, and still converse, but it works on the assumption that they’re going with the flow- with IC posts opting out of a group-action, rather than opting in.
Well said... I should add this thought to the OP.
You can find it here
I encourage people to read it and run stuff with it.
Incidentally, what the hell, I talk about area transitions and my IC suddenly comes alive and calls for... an area transition. Weird.
It's pretty easy to convert characters over to EPIC, actually.
Right now I am working on example PCs to post in that thread, and some of the characters I am converting over from D&D, Mutants & Masterminds, and Shadowrun.
Also we seem to have a few Exalted games going right now. IMO, Exalted has a really awesome setting and premise, but it seems to have some troubles when heading over to the pbp realm due to the amount of back-and-forth that comes into play in combat.
In the game I'm playing with, being on AIM at the same time was what basically kept a couple of things moving along... particularly a fight that had a solar and a terrestrial fighting an abyssal. Even though it was over like almost instantly, essence users duking it out was tricky.*
I'd be interested to hear what ideas people might have for making Exalted friendlier to a play-by-post situation.
* to rock around to rock around the clock because it's trickay
Since otherwise you have to go through about seven posts to decide what's going to happen on each action, which isn't really acceptable.
I'm not familiar with these 'advanced PBP' boards (and I can't say I want to be now), but I would have thought 800 words would be a maximum in all cases, save selective joint narratives.
In the games I've watched and participated in, my own experience is that keeping the player's attention and motivation to continute particiaption has been a major cause of failure. Complex rules and an imbalance of narrative & resolution responsibilities can play a part, but as long as everyone is still following along and keep coming back the game will move at the allotted pace, at least until it runs for so many months that people are no longer available to play. If you keep them reading and writing, the game will run however fast or slow they want.
But who the fuck wants to read and write 800 words per player? That screams either extreme inefficiency or extreme self-indulgence in narrative, and that's what will kill a game the hardest. It may go unsaid, but it's not hard to tell when just don't feel like checking back on the game when there'll be too much for them to read or not post when there's too much expected of them to write. They find ways to only do the absolute minimum word count or posts per day, and that will involve skimming the narrative and exclude reading everyone elses' wordy mess. So it's their interraction with other players and with the GM that suffers and it devolves into an unmotivated string of declarations that only the poster bothers reading.
Brevity and interraction is the divide between pen & paper versus play-by-post games. It's not impossible to read through the backlog of a successful 'casual length' PBP and read a believable transcript of a traditional roleplaying game, even it it took ages to play out. Plenty of PBPs I've read attempt some degree of narrative embelishment from player actions, and read nothing like a P&P session; can anyone imagine the looks a player would get from around the table if you he went on for six sentences about some anecdote from his life story every single turn? The thought there are 'advanced' players dragging out D&D dungeon-crawls into novellas boggles my mind.
Yet this is what seems to be the popular way to play in some circles, that PBP is somehow supposed to be slow and wordy when running adventures meant to be brisk and to-the-point. There are very few systems that will actually support the kind of bloated and drawn-out playstyle most people seem to think is the advantage of PBP games, and many times the solution is to simply work against the nature of the medium and keep your game quick and simple.
TD;DR: Did I just spend 800 words bitching about 800 words?