10-15 years of millions of people being exposed to things with detrimental health effects is not worth saving the jobs of some of the people who produce those effects. And until government intervention most people accross the nation had no idea what trans fats were. You're essentially advocating a decade of people destorying their hearts so that the people producing the heart destroying stuff don't lose their job. How do you even justify it?
And no, the entire nation wouldn't descend into a Jungle like state. But significant portions would. There are large numbers of people in the poorer areas of our nation who would suffer significantly because the government wouldn't be protecting them. Many are suffering now with help and your view that if it were taken away private institutions would sweep in and help them when they've historically done the exact opposite is unrealistic.
Quid on
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
What does morality have to do with the laws Congress enacts?
Everything: people just disagree about what sort of morality should underlie said laws.
For instance is a nation's obligation to help it's own citizens above all else, or does it have a responsibility to act for the global good? That affects our foreign policy and foreign aid. Is it more important that everyone have equal goods or an equal opportunity? Are there 'natural rights' to things like life, liberty, and property? Is racial integration, in and of itself, a worthy goal? Are the arts worthy of state sponsorship for their own sake?
You can't answer any of these questions without appeal to moral judgments.
When people try to appeal to a cost-benefit analysis in the place of 'morality,' they're usually just making use of an imprecise and unargued form of utilitarianism, which is in actuality most definitely a theory of morality.
Oh I don't know Quid, just think of it - me and Aegeri will invent plasmids and regenerative biotechnology and then the grand army of D&D will sweep in an conquer America (and the rest of the world) and transform it into a well-managed paradise.
...
It's funny how my fantasies actually are to bring the world to a state of sensible and effective regulation.
10-15 years of millions of people being exposed to things with detrimental health effects is not worth saving the jobs of some of the people who produce those effects. And until government intervention most people accross the nation had no idea what trans fats were. You're essentially advocating a decade of people destorying their hearts so that the people producing the heart destroying stuff don't lose their job. How do you even justify it?
This is an aside, but well before it became popular people who embraced margarine and trans-fat were being exposed to evil Butter and Lard for hundreds of years. I don't think McDonalds was putting Trans-fat into their food until the 80's because people were flipping out about the lard content in their quarter pounder so they switched. Oops.
And we're not just saving the jobs of some of the people who produce those effects. We're impacting the people who work in the restaurants too, not to mention the prices will generally increase which also impacts consumers, primarily at the bottom of the economic food chain mind you.
All of this doesn't prove that kind of legislation is bad but for me the "Well obviously we should do this" response to laws like that just doesn't resonate.
By your reasoning prices wouldn't increase because the businesses that produced these products would be able to count on the money necessary to produce more. And since none of these regulations are put in to effect overnight there's no concern about them not having enough time to produce more.
Edit: Also, poor people are still suffering from predatory lending, substandard living conditions, and poor nutrition. All of this because of private institutions.
10-15 years of millions of people being exposed to things with detrimental health effects is not worth saving the jobs of some of the people who produce those effects. And until government intervention most people accross the nation had no idea what trans fats were. You're essentially advocating a decade of people destorying their hearts so that the people producing the heart destroying stuff don't lose their job. How do you even justify it?
This is an aside, but well before it became popular people who embraced margarine and trans-fat were being exposed to evil Butter and Lard for hundreds of years. I don't think McDonalds was putting Trans-fat into their food until the 80's because people were flipping out about the lard content in their quarter pounder so they switched. Oops.
Yes, I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that trans far were cheaper and pretty much last forever. It was all because of pressure from the all powerful health food industry, who have been dictating how McDonalds runs their business from the start.
Hell, when margarine was first introduced, some states issued laws stating that you had to dye it pink, in order to make it perfectly clear that that shit wasn't natural.
There's a great deal of economic research that shows that regulation is generally a bad idea or at least badly executed. It creates opportunities for people in certain positions to game the system and the regulators are always a step behind the system gamers. A vulgar libertarian position that all regulation is bad is silly but a more nuanced libertarian position that you better be pretty careful about regulation because you don't know what you're going to get and once you get it you're going to have a real hard time getting rid of it seems pretty practical. This is especially true in the USA because of our political system. It is very hard to change course. My sense is that anyone with a brain and no skin in the game knows that the Farm Bill that President Bush just vetoed (which will be enacted into law anyway after the Senate follows the House and overrides it) is a bad bit of legislation. It's just part of the political game that's been there for so long it is almost impossible to get rid of. Notwithstanding a great deal of cultural differences between countries that make apples to apples comparisons difficult, a country like Canada with a parliamentary democracy and a relatively weak federal government has a better shot at turning the boat when it sees the iceberg. I could be wrong about this. The USA system has been very effective for a very long time, but in a fast changing world, we might be moving too slow. We have an institutional prison industry that dwarfs any in a typical western democracy. We are the only western democracy to have the death penalty. We are one of the few last western democracies to start taking climate change seriously. We have a byzantine tax code and sacred cows like the mortgage interest deduction (someone help me? what other country has this). We apparently (this is a point of serious debate) have an education system that costs those who want a piece of it a fortune and that can't produce enough qualified graduates to fill the jobs we create domestically (ask Bill Gates). It isn't surprising to see Americans rallying around the flag when our very successful democracy is taken to task, but there's questions to be asked. We wouldn't be the first Republic to go from feast to famine without seeing it coming.
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
An indicator of a self-righteous lefty is that they will do their best to lump you in with other groups and accuse you of being either ignorant, insensitive and/or racist on every issue.
You also love John McCain and don't argue otherwise because just like you he's really for "lower taxes".
Since you don't immediately embrace their socialist mindset that makes you an anarchist or at least a racist ignoramus. Reasonably questioning what the government does is unacceptable if the experts sign off on it and obviously everything they do serves the greater good.
I love that, right in this post, you do the exact same thing you accuse us of doing. Good fucking job.
An indicator of a self-righteous lefty is that they will do their best to lump you in with other groups and accuse you of being either ignorant, insensitive and/or racist on every issue.
You also love John McCain and don't argue otherwise because just like you he's really for "lower taxes".
Since you don't immediately embrace their socialist mindset that makes you an anarchist or at least a racist ignoramus. Reasonably questioning what the government does is unacceptable if the experts sign off on it and obviously everything they do serves the greater good.
You know what would be great to go with that perfect predictability? Some more strawmanning.
People aren't people either. They are simply numbers plugged into a greater formula that makes up our society. Just have your 2.2 children (no more than that please), work your 9-5 (or else), enjoy your school loans at 6% which you'll be able to fnally pay off in 57 years, keep your carbon footprint low and let the adults take it from here.
Fuck you now I have to read it. I'm still embarrassed about giving the Cato Institute money a few years back because I was outraged about social security.
Edit: Shit. I think P.J. O'Rourke was ghostwriting.
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Posts
And no, the entire nation wouldn't descend into a Jungle like state. But significant portions would. There are large numbers of people in the poorer areas of our nation who would suffer significantly because the government wouldn't be protecting them. Many are suffering now with help and your view that if it were taken away private institutions would sweep in and help them when they've historically done the exact opposite is unrealistic.
Everything: people just disagree about what sort of morality should underlie said laws.
For instance is a nation's obligation to help it's own citizens above all else, or does it have a responsibility to act for the global good? That affects our foreign policy and foreign aid. Is it more important that everyone have equal goods or an equal opportunity? Are there 'natural rights' to things like life, liberty, and property? Is racial integration, in and of itself, a worthy goal? Are the arts worthy of state sponsorship for their own sake?
You can't answer any of these questions without appeal to moral judgments.
When people try to appeal to a cost-benefit analysis in the place of 'morality,' they're usually just making use of an imprecise and unargued form of utilitarianism, which is in actuality most definitely a theory of morality.
...
It's funny how my fantasies actually are to bring the world to a state of sensible and effective regulation.
You've seen that episode of Reboot right.
This is an aside, but well before it became popular people who embraced margarine and trans-fat were being exposed to evil Butter and Lard for hundreds of years. I don't think McDonalds was putting Trans-fat into their food until the 80's because people were flipping out about the lard content in their quarter pounder so they switched. Oops.
And we're not just saving the jobs of some of the people who produce those effects. We're impacting the people who work in the restaurants too, not to mention the prices will generally increase which also impacts consumers, primarily at the bottom of the economic food chain mind you.
All of this doesn't prove that kind of legislation is bad but for me the "Well obviously we should do this" response to laws like that just doesn't resonate.
Edit: Also, poor people are still suffering from predatory lending, substandard living conditions, and poor nutrition. All of this because of private institutions.
Yes, I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that trans far were cheaper and pretty much last forever. It was all because of pressure from the all powerful health food industry, who have been dictating how McDonalds runs their business from the start.
Hell, when margarine was first introduced, some states issued laws stating that you had to dye it pink, in order to make it perfectly clear that that shit wasn't natural.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
I love that, right in this post, you do the exact same thing you accuse us of doing. Good fucking job.
Oh, there we go. It's like the cherry on top!
Did someone post this already?
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Fuck you now I have to read it. I'm still embarrassed about giving the Cato Institute money a few years back because I was outraged about social security.
Edit: Shit. I think P.J. O'Rourke was ghostwriting.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Bob Barr!