That's because it's a [Guy] thread.
I've been living with my boyfriend for the past few months. I love him to death but I think I'm going to have to hit him repeatedly in the head with a hammer.
I do basically everything. I put all the effort into the domestics and into maintaining the relationship.
He does....next to nothing.
Yes, I've told him how I feel and that I'd like some help around the house. Basically, nothing changes.
We're on the lease for the rest of the year...it's not like I'm going to kick his ass out.
I don't know what to do with this guy...I don't want to turn into one of those bitchy women and I don't want to resent him for his lack of effort...but goddamn, how do I inspire some sort of change and desire to contribute to our home and relationship....
*bangs head on wall*
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Kyle
When you said you talked to him, do you mean something like "hey, do they dishes today!", or more like "I'm tired of doing all this and feeling like I'm a slave."
If you did the latter, and he hasn't changed, then I don't think anything you can do will make him change. I guess you can try an ultimatum.
Sit down with him. Let him know that this is a big deal. He might not understand that it is - especially if he comes from a family where all of this stuff was just done behind the scenes by a long-suffering mother. If he's not a total prick, he'll understand where you're coming from.
It's not what you want, I know. You just want the other person to all of a sudden stop being selfish and wake up to themselves. Trust me, people don't work like that and it's not going to happen by itself.
The key thing you have to understand is that there's a big gap between recognizing that you're taking advantage of a social situation, and actually working to change it. So unless you go an extra step, there's every chance that he'll listen to this, try hard for a week or so, and then slip back into the old, comfortable pattern.
How do you think he'd respond to the idea of a roster? It might feel like babying for both of you, but if you can set out obligations clearly and get him into a new habit, he'll gradually start to do stuff off his own initiative. Just don't divide the chores along "his jobs, my jobs" lines. Split all of the housework straight down the middle. There's nothing worse than being the one who has to scrub the toilets while your housemate/partner leisurely wheels the garbage to the curb.
I think your much bigger issue is that, he needs to make his own efforts to inject excitement and romance into the relationship.
Were you wishy-washy about the chores thing? Like "You know, it might be kind of nice perhaps if you'd do more around the apartment"? You should be more firm, and perhaps say that it shows a lack of respect for you, and that has to change.
That helped a lot less than she thought.
My point is make sure you're actually communicating.
If that doesn't work? Well then you're not going to make any headway on making him change, and you pretty much need to think about whether that's what you actually want in a relationship.
Me and my girlfriend will sometimes let things slide a little, but we've found our niches. We but on the radio and do some chores together. One of us could be doing dishes while the other cooks. One of us could be cleaning the bathroom while the other does laundry and tidies up the apartment.
We switch it up so we don't do the same chores each time. We both work, and if anything I do more of the household chores and cooking then she does, but she makes more so she pays more of the bills.
I don't mind doing a little more chores then her and she doesn't mind doing a little more of the bill paying, we don't hold things over each other.
You don't want to use sex as a bargaining chip, but if your up for it I doubt it would hurt to suggest you would have more time and energy to spend on him if he helped more with the chores.
Also, a little bit of praise goes a long way. I can scrub the scale build up out of the bathroom sink better then my girlfriend, and when she comments on how clean it looks it makes me feel like my manly strength was put to good use scrubbing.
Let him know what upsets and stresses you most, and tell him you want/need it fixed. If he expresses an interest in pleasing you, as the puppy would, start with one room, or one unhelpful habit and make that your focus. When you notice him making the kitchen cleaner or taking out the trash or whatever, go out of your way to say "Thank you. I really appreciate that you did x and y today," or give him a hug or offer to make something fancy for dinner. If you notice him in the process of leaving a mess behind, or just looking at something that needs to be done without doing it, gently push him in the right direction. Once he gets used to the new tricks he's learned, add more to the routine. He may never learn to be a thoughtful neat freak but he'll at least get house trained.
If I knew how to lime, I would lime this. Get a little creative, and try to find out what will motivate him to do chores. No one likes to do that stuff, but you have to find a way to get him going. I find that once you get going on cleaning, you get some momentum and its easier to do more. The trick is getting him to get started. I echo the whole cleaning day type situation. Do chores together, play the radio, plan breaks in between, like fixing an awesome lunch. I do not recommend openly using sex as a bargaining chip, but if after a successful cleaning day you lead him to the bedroom and rock his world, he may be more excited to get cleaning next time.
As for working on the relationship stuff, that is a bit trickier and less tangible. I would say plan something special with him, like a weekend getaway. Sometimes people get caught up in the day to day and routine and they lose passion. You could look online for good hotel prices or try to find a bed and breakfast place. Or it could just be a day trip to someplace you two rarely go like a hiking trail or the beach. The idea is to spend some alone time in place that isn't the house.
Yeah, that is what we do, and it works well! And I shouldn't have contradicted myself with the sex as a barganning chip thing, cliff has the right idea. Also, if there is something like tennis, cycling, walking or any activity the two of you could do together you should get outside and get some exercise together. After spending most of the winter holed up in our igloo* we are getting out more the last few months and it has been awesome.
*No, canadian's don't actually live in Igloo's but that is how small my apartment sometimes feels.
Also, @cliff you highlight by selecting what you want to highlight and clicking on what looks like an underlined "A" at the top next to sizes and choosing a colour.
I've asked him to help me do little things like chop veggies or grate cheese while I cook. (That was disateriffic... he whined the whole time...but was more than happy to grub down when I was done cooking)
I hate to insult his intelligence, but I guess I'll have to start treating him like a dog... or like a roommate and not a boyfriend. I still like the hammer to the face option, however.
I honestly don't understand him...things were great until we moved in together.... Although, I guess that it is a common happening that people that think they're great together find out they're not when they have to co-habitate.
I am an awesome fking girlfriend, if I do say so myself.... I don't understand why he wouldn't care to reciprocate ANY of what he receives.
Sorry.... this is just turning into whining, not constructive. Ugh.
Having lived on my own and lived with other people, I can tell you it takes some adjustment. Luckily my mother never stood for me being a lazy git, and I learned how to do my own laundry, how to cook and how to clean, early on. But this is definitely not the case for many people.
When he does something, encourage him by telling him that he did a good job, whether or not he did.
I hate to encourage active manipulation, but little things, like telling him he gets the dishes the cleanest, or his ramen noodles are the best damn ramen noodles, will go a long way towards positively reinforcing those things.
You have to be patient. But, really, if he's not willing to learn or to change, then you're kind of stuck.
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This seems to be a common thing among people of all breeds.
On topic though, I really like the idea of a roster. It would seem to me (although I haven't been in this situations so I can't speak from experience sorry) that if there's a list of jobs that he should have done that week, and at the end of the week they're not done, he can see that list and see how much he hasn't put in. And surely some encouragement helps.
Also, ++housework with the radio/music on. If there are big jobs to be done, do them at the same time. Eg, one scrubs the bathroom while one vacuums and dusts. Then (you would hope) he's not doing chores while watching you chilling on the couch and feeling left out.
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The secret to conjoined chore-doing bliss isn't splitting every single duty from garbage detail to bill paying to grocery shopping exactly down the middle and following your set routine to the letter. It's sitting down and talking, like adults, to figure out who wants to take responsibility for which chores. Personally, I hate doing laundry. Can't stand it. I have a lot of clothes, so when I'm living alone, I just let everything build up until I have five loads of laundry to do, then I do it all in a furious rage-filled afternoon of overheated frustration. My boyfriend, on the other hand, really doesn't mind it. He's pretty good at keeping up with his own stuff, he can fold clothes neatly, he even likes ironing. Similarly, I like tidying up the kitchen, whereas he would be content to just keep stacking dirty dishes beside his computer until they reached the ceiling.
We could try to split those two chores evenly, taking turns - I would do dishes one week while he took care of the laundry, then we'd switch - but I can tell you right now that it wouldn't work. During his week on dishes, they would be left undone for a few nights at a time, which would drive me crazy; during my week on laundry, I'd leave everything until the last minute, and he'd run out of nice shirts to wear because I hadn't washed any of them.
Or, we could recognize that those chores have different weights in our minds, but that because of that, they're really about equal in terms of overall onerousness. I'm happy to do the dishes every night if it means I never need to do laundry again, and he's happy to take care of all the laundry in exchange for knowing that he'll always have a tidy kitchen and clean dishes to eat from.
There are a lot of responsibilities that need to be handled in a live-in relationship, and it's easy for one person to feel that they're doing more than their fair share. So, OP, sit down with your boyfriend and talk. Instead of saying "I'd like some help around the house," have a long discussion with him about what needs to be done, and how you want to divide the work. The method of division is up to you... I really don't recommend the "everything down the middle" approach, since it pretty much ensures that both of you will end up doing something you hate at least half the time. But, as dgs suggested, doing the same thing all the time can get frustrating too. Maybe both of you could pick a set of basic, necessary chores that you do pretty much every day (cooking, cleaning the kitchen, keeping up with laundry, etc), then take turns doing other stuff every week or two (cleaning the bathroom, dusting, changing sheets, etc).
tl;dr version: strive for equivalency, not absolute equality. Maybe one of you would rather spend a few hours a week doing the really dirty, unpleasant chores, like scrubbing toilets and taking out garbage, while the other would prefer spending more time on less strenuous work like grocery shopping and cooking.
Geeky suggestion, using SCIENCE!:
Alternatively, if your finances aren't too entwined, just refuse to cook for him. Make a delicious meal all for yourself. If he won't put more than microwave dinner effort in, he shouldn't get better than microwave dinners out. Tell him you're going to do so first, of course. I bet his mom always did everything for him when he was young, so now he just expects it from you. Let him know the free ride is over and enforce it, no matter how much he whines.
Some men are neanderthalls. I was a lazy git when I lived at home, but I'd been living on my own before I met my girlfriend. If your mom has been doing everything..and suddenly you have to do half it might seem harsh. If you've been living on your own and cooking/cleanning for yourself and suddenly someone is there to do half the work with you it seems awesome.
Our kitchen is tiny and were both somewhat control freaks, so often I cook while my gf surf's the net and talks to me. Sometimes its the other way around, and sometimes we do cook together if it invloves lots of chopping/pealing or other stuff we can divy up.
My girlfriend explained to me that she can't relax if she see's things piling up that need to be done -like dirty dishes/laundry ans so forth. I always felt it was more efficient to let dishes/laundry pile up a little and do them all at once, so we compromised.
If he can't take a hint you could basically explain that you aren't his mother, your equals.
Being a good domestic person is about having good habits. It is also about knowing how to maintain all aspects of the household. I personally would kill people if I was locked into being the designated "toilet scrubber" whilst my housemate was the designated "go to the supermarket and run into friends and pick yourself up a treat because what the hell you deserve it". Sure, I only have to scrub the toilets once every fortnight or whatever, but my housemate is eventually going to take it for granted because he's never done it for an extended period of time.
Yes rosters are juvenile. Yes, they are embarrassing for all involved. But what's more embarrassing, deciding who cooks dinner on a Wednesday, or a boyfriend who bitches and moans like a kid whenever he has to pull his weight?
EDIT: I guess I'm saying I think it works better if you're both 100% capable and independent and doing 50% of the work each rather than both being 50% capable. I mean, yes, you have to do less with the latter, but there's always the risk of "Oh, I have a day off and could scrub the floors but you know what that's her job," whereas with the former it's just "oh well, I guess I'll just have to do it today, too".
I'm not suggesting busting out a calendar and highlighters.
That should mean she does the dishes in return, but she's also a grad student and works about 2-3 more hours per day than I do. And because I realize this, I don't mind doing extra chores to keep our space enjoyable and usable.
The downside to your problem, though, is that the guy sounds like he just doesn't give a shit. In your case, I'd bust out the whip and play taskmaster, making him do all the chores for a week.
But yeah, this is why so many people state that cohabitation leads to breakup -- people realize that someone who is funny and attractive in small snippets is a total slob and layabout once they actually live together. When you see someone 24/7 and they're utterly unattractive most of that time, well, at least you're not married to them ;D
Like, some day when you know you're both not required elsewhere, just say "Hey, I thought we'd clean house today. I got a bunch of cleaning stuffs and it'd be cool to get this place looking nice." Chances are he'll agree to help you clean if your both doing it together.
In addition, some people who get used to living in a messy place find it easier to change their habits when they just have to maintain the clean place, rather than trying to get started when it seems like it'll never be clean again. Once it's shining, mention offhand that you'd like him to do the dishes today or whatever. Eventually he'll start to notice "Oh shit, I should do the dishes."
I tend to bring it up in most relationship threads, because there seems to be this really weird thought of "If he/she really understood me he/she'd be able to pick up on those subtle clues and figure out what's wrong."
And it's always completely stupid. Luckily, the OP seems to have gotten past that.
Really the only advice I ever have to give is the same: Communicate.
Ok, I'm going to go large scale here for a second: Communication can pretty much solve every problem in a relationship. When it doesn't, then the relationship probably is doomed.
Basically what I'm trying to say is: If he knows how you feel about the whole thing, and how you feel that his lack of help is a sign of a lack of respect, and yet continues to disrespect you, maybe there's a deeper problem here that can't be fixed.
You are fighting what is known by feminists as the double day. Simply, it's the expectation that women, despite entering the workforce and holding full-time jobs, are primarily responsible for housework. On a macro-level, the double day arose simply from a lack of change as households switched from single- to dual-income. On a micro-level, and here things get trickier, the belief is that it is culturally indoctrinated. The common theory is that boys are not exposed to housework, whereas girls are expected to help, and as such when they become men and women, the former feel no personal responsibility for housework whereas the latter take it quite personally.
He might honestly feel no responsibility to help you with housework. That would make your subtle hints wash off his back, and your sarcastic remarks seem like you're just angry and frustrated. If he doesn't feel like he's receiving anything special, why would he reciprocate? I'd suggest that treating him like a child is not entirely unreasonable if I'm right. You may need to expose him to housework in the same way a child is, though in this case carrot would probably work better than stick. You would be trying to overcome not just a lack of motivation, but additionally a sense of shame over his relative lack of skill compared to you, other people, or even his own expectations, and as is often observed, the male sense of shame is incredibly strong.
The fact that he bitched and whined while helping you in the kitchen is disheartening though. I'm personally completely helpless in the kitchen - I'm just not good with my hands - but I can still find things to help with when asked, and I can find pleasure in achievement. You might to be able to find particularly suitable tasks. For example, give me a knife or raw food and I will freak out rather helplessly (complete with baby-like arm-flailing), but I will wash your dishes no problem. It's honestly a little soothing, and the fact that I end up with empty sinks afterwards pleases me.
I'm not really sure how to fix the problem entirely, but maybe this explains your situation and can hopefully inform your actions.
(Um, as for the effort put into maintaining the relationship, that might be an indicator of non-compatibility. That issue seems to have largely been left in the dust in the thread, but without more detail, it's sorta.... probably not good? He might be just not that into you, but it could just as easily be something else entirely.)
It took quite some time, and we've now divided jobs almost completely, cos there are some things I'm just way better than he is, and vice versa. I shop, (food and everything else, he HATES shopping) cook, do all the DIY, some washing, some cleaning. He does the bulk of the washing, all the ironing (i'd just wear creased clothes, I HATE it), and some house cleaning. LP cleans house, does a little cooking, his sister cooks, her BF cuts the grass, house cleans - I don't think he'd ever done a chore at home.
Its pretty simple really, you just have to be determined, if the relationship is worth it. tell him straight, he's lazy, and if he wants to stay living with you, he has to man up, and do chores. If he won't help with cooking, tell him to house clean while you do. If he won't do washing, don't do it for him, but tell him first.
Everyone who lives with me (my sprogs, LPs sister's BF and our foster children) learn to do chores - I never want to have a future son/daughter in law demand to know why I didn't train them up. Its not fair on others.
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What happened was she kept complaining that I wasn't putting in effort, and I really felt like I was. This caused problems, I started wondering why I should bother if I "always fuck it up". She took the chores away from me, which made me feel babied and worried that she would resent me for the work she was doing, so I became miserable that I wasn't being allowed to help. It was an impossible situation.
The way we semi-solved it was to find things that I could do that I didn't "screw up", like she would wash the dishes and I would dry, I cook sometimes, I vacuum, take out the trash. We tried the roster thing but that didn't work, because it wasn't able to make me any better at chores that I didn't have the capability to do.
So yeah, make it a partnership, find things he can do well, and reward him with praise when he does it, even if it's slightly wrong. Nagging will only lead to both persons being resentful, just bite your tongue. Praise will raise his self-esteem, and then he'll be more likely to help.
My girlfriend and I usually divide up the cleaning, I'll do buckets load of dishes (we don't have a washing machine) as she picks up and sweeps the living room. Yes, the radio is going the whole time. I usually end up sweeping and mopping the kitchen, also, as it gets pretty messy.
Anyway, everyone else has pretty much said what there is to be said: divvy up chores, make it a "group" project, and chill together afterwords. We usually have a beer and watch some TV together, or monkey around in some other way. It usually turns into a social experience. You just have to let each other know that this is shit that needs to get done, and not one person should be doing it all.
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So, saying or acting this way...probably not a good way to make things better, and to be honest I'd probably just tell you to fuck off and keep my ass on the couch if you came into it with that attitude
That's really not so helpful...
The comment of me treating him like a dog is not saying that I would smack him across the nose with a rolled up newspaper for not doing his dishes, however, (and based on a number of responses) I'm thinking that some "retraining" is indeed in order, and if it requires some Pavlovian measures, then so be it.
I have tried talking and being open and honest with my feelings and what I think constitutes fairness in our home. He essentially disregarded that, and yet you say you'd tell ME to "fuck off". How unfortunate.
Well, the thing is, you have an amazingly condescending attitude towards your boyfriend. It's not respectful. You can't expect it from him when you aren't willing to show him the same.
"Retraining"? "Pavlovian measures"? Get a grip. He's your boyfriend. Treat him like a human being.
PS. And if you're still seeing him in such derogatory terms, he's better off without you.
Explain how conditioning my boyfriend to perform a task is disrespectful of him when you yourself suggested I do so?
If I reward him for doing the dishes or helping me fold laundry, exactly how is that me being disrespectful or demeaning towards him?
I've been being walked on and treated like a servant more than a girlfriend, yet I'm the bad guy? I don't get that. I've been open with him and tried to communicate with him (no, I do NOT nag him, tyvm) and that obviously has failed in the past, so I say that I ought to take steps to retrain this behaviour, and somehow that makes me a bad girlfriend? No, I don't think so.
Edit: I don't think you understand... I do EVERYTHING in the house. I cook, clean, dust, do laundry, scrub floors, toilets, bathtubs, grocery shop, pay rent, pay utilities, I take care of him when he's ill, I attend his football games, I let him go out with "the guys". I work 60+ hours every week, he works 20-ish. If wanting some equity in our home is such a bad thing, then yes, I guess he is better off without someone that has done all these things for him.
Susan, what I see is you playing the martyr card. Until you have children or some other compelling reason to stay together long-term, you don't get to play it. Relationships aren't built on martyrdom. You just walk. It's obvious you don't respect your boyfriend at all.
Whether he's earnt that respect isn't relevant, because what you feel is what matters. We're only getting your side of the story, but the fact is, you're unhappy. You're saying that you need him to be radically changed to your liking (hint: you can't radically change anyone. Lead, yes, tweak, yes, change... no), and until that point, you will not feel like you're in an equal, loving, respectful relationship. When you've decided to treat your boyfriend like he is a dog, you're very, very far from that relationship.
If it continues, either you will leave or he will.
Your options are:
1. to snap out of it, realise you're just mad, and actually the reality is different to the portrait you're painting us.
2. if you're cool, calm, collected, and what you're telling us is true, it's time you find another place to live.
Being nice to your boyfriend is not conditioning. Using motivational boosters is not conditioning. It's called being a good leader.
Equating people to dog tricks: that's conditioning.
Maybe I'm just slow, but you said you won't kick him out, and I can't see why. You pay all the bills, and according to you he's not contributing whatsoever. What are his positive qualities? Besides loving him, which you can certainly do if he's not living with you, you have yet to list any reasons that I can see to live with him.
He sounds like a loser. And he's lucky to have a girlfriend who puts up with so much shit. But, you know, luck doesn't last forever.
Like Lewisham says, you can tweak & lead, encouraging good things and balancing through small measures. You can't change someone entirely. Apparently, he'd have to get a much better job, do his fair share of chores, spend less time (and your money) with "the boys," and not be a condescending asshole when it comes to, you know, living with another person.
I personally think that in a good relationship, you get 1 freebie that you can expect to change about another person. ONE thing. That usually falls into an "I love everything about him, except...." statement. And that one thing, you can expect to change. For many people it's something like smoking, or another "dealbreaker habit," but often it's things like "do the dishes" or "cook dinners" or a specific chore. The fact that this dude has a litany of perceived problems and his solution to helping you out is whining and moaning (or ignoring you), well, you're not making us like the guy.
I feel like I'm a good person and I try to put everything into a relationship, whether it be a friendship, a roommate situation, or a boyfriend, that I want to get out of it.
Everything is about give and take...again, apologies for being at the end of my proverbial rope not knowing how to deal with all take and no give.
I also feel like I should at least *try* to fix something that is broken. This is one aspect that I feel like I could help repair in our situation, but with just plain talking I wasn't getting anywhere...I needed outside help.
I sincerely appreciate the advice and ideas that were given, and I intend to put at least some of it to use.
To answer Mr.(?) Eggytoast, there is indeed more to him than being cute and liking the same shows. Things between us were much different before we took the "living together" plunge, and I'm not ready or willing to give up yet... I'm just hurt and frustrated and I didn't know what to do or try, thus I turned to H/A.
Edit after reading...: Inflection doesn't carry over text so well....I hope you can realize that I'm not trying to be catty or snide, but I am honestly sorry you see me as trying to martyr myself, and I do appreciate the H/A'ers input....
Sorry if I was blunt, but I think there are really only two situations here without knowing his side -
1. You are playing the martyr/nag card. From what you described though after my post, based on your word it isn't that. Relationships are give take. For example, I'll admit with my fiance and I, she does the majority of the housework. I chip in here and there, but she's much more of a clean freak than I am, so she ends up doing most of it. I feel this kind of balances out though, as I'm in charge of most of the finances, and I work more. We are both happy with our roles so I think it works good for us.Your tone kind of put me off, as I've known girls in relationships that make it out as they do everything, and just take for granted other aspects of the relationship.
2. Based on what you said, it seems like this guy is pretty much a bum. People can change once they live together, and I think it's a good thing to move in first before going any further, to see how you mesh when you're together day in - day out, and have to do shitty things together like pay rent and clean the bathroom. What I'd suggest for advice, is really just communication. Let him know how you feel, that you're overwhelmed. You shouldn't be doing everything if you're working 40 more hours a week than him. No matter how you put it he probably isn't going to be happy hearing it, so don't accuse him of being a lazy fuck, just tell him you need help getting everything done. If things keep going the way they are, I'm pretty sure he's giving you a good sign that he's not the right guy, and move on.
No, see, you're doing it again. WE don't think you're being catty or snide, or at least I don't think that's the general impression. It's that, well... let's take the analogy all the way. You're being a martyr. Martyrs die for their cause, and people don't realize what they did until AFTER they're dead. In relationship-speak, this is why people say shit like "man, she was so good to me, I'm so stupid! Why didn't I realize that until she left!"
You're trying to get him to appreciate you for what you're doing. We're saying that it's not going to happen until he leaves, because he sounds like a deadbeat. The people in happy relationships are trying to tell you that a good relationship doesn't have this problem -- people can see what the other is doing in their relationship because they care for them. Sometimes they need some prodding, and sometimes they need to talk it out so that they're both fully aware. In most cases, those conversations are just getting the subtle things out in the open -- they're not major changes. You, on the other hand, have a laundry list of grievances. Those grievances aren't unfounded -- I think most of us agree that you're really getting the shit end of the stick.
You're essentially being a doormat. He's walking all over you, and you're trying to get him to stop using you to wipe his feet. And we're saying that, unless there's something you're not telling us, he's a loser who isn't going to change. You can try to be a white knight, putting lots of effort and love and hope into the relationship, but we're saying that the guy you were dating is not the guy you're living with. The guy you're living with IS THE REAL GUY. The dating version was just that -- the "see you on the weekends" version.
This. People can change small things with a little work; changing a lifetime of someone's mommy coddling them is near impossible to change without major effort on their part. He doesn't seem to really care to do that work.