Considering this kind of thing happens in the United States, is there anything here that actually specifically pertains to Africa, aside from the size of the problem?
Incenjucar on
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAMod Emeritus
It seems like a sincere observation of his that Christian ideology displaces traditional tribal ideology.
Does the atheist "side" really depend on the worldviews of organized religion being even more anti-social than redneck peasant superstitions and dislocated tribal norms?
I tend to agree. I tend to think that there needs to be something to replace the tribal ideology and the modern organized religion ideology.
My "side" is pretty firmly in favor of the promotion of a strong moral ideology. A faithless religion would be ideal, I think.
EDITED out a contradiction.
I'm not a Christian, but I do think that Christianity is often a force for good when it's not being a force for stupid. To the extent that it's better than some of the batshit tribalism in Africa, the cynical pragmatist in me thinks that an introduction of Christianity may well be a good thing, even if I don't personally buy into it.
Ideally, they'd all believe exactly what I believe, because I'm right and also awesome, but as a second choice Christianity works, too. Of course, the tone of that article is extremely condescending. But whatever.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I don't see Christian ideology and tribal ideology as inherently incompatible. People can believe a lot of things. For example, in the USA, a person can believe in Christian brotherhood and also believe that blacks are a bunch of thieves and Northerners are evil.
I don't see Christian ideology and tribal ideology as inherently incompatible. People can believe a lot of things. For example, in the USA, a person can believe in Christian brotherhood and also believe that blacks are a bunch of thieves and Northerners are evil.
They're definitely not incompatible. Actually, every single incarnation of Christianity I know of is pretty syncretised with other religions. The only exception I can think of is the protestants, but they're 'syncretised' with secular and civil values of the reformation and later (and still keep a few holidays like Christmas that have very ancient 'pagan' roots).
In many regions this is even more pronounced. Some Mayan Catholics are so Mayan that they aren't officially recognised by Rome, but they still consider themselves Catholics. Many of your more recently converted societies aren't so much 'Christian' the way we think of it in America as having a rubber stamp of Christianity on something very different.
I've never heard of any church that actually practices Apostolic Christianity that we see in the New Testament, but since we have only a very vague idea of what that was anyway, it's difficult to tell. Of course, even Christians back then varied greatly depending on the region, as we see in the letters of Paul.
"Africa" is not a country. "Africa" is not a homogenous group of people. "Africa" does not need anything, particularly from sanctimonious patronizing Westerners. Malawi might need religion, particularly the poor corn farmers of Malawi, but what I think they need more are some literacy teachers, some clean water, and some condoms.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Although you may be talking about the president of South Africa, who is under Duesberg's sway.
Sorry, I didn't mean the professor that had the president's ear, but the president himself. I don't know that it was SA though. Gah, I wish I could recall more. About the only thing I clearly remember is my blood pressure rising as I read about him saying how important it was to inspire hope.
That was Yahja Jammeh, President of The Gambia. He says he can personally cure AIDS - but only on Thursdays - and told all sufferers to stop taking their anti-viral medications.
Follow some of the links up in the thread. It's all there, all from sources like the BBC and Wikipedia.
No no. I believe you.
I mean why the fuck hasn't that guy been assassinated by human rights groups yet.
For that matter, how come only people with stupid, irrational or insane belief systems assassinate and kill useful people but useful people don't assassinate and kill downright dangerous and insane people?
Because "the public" wont allow us. Go on TV and say the death penalty should be applied in cases of convicted baby rape, hell rape in general. People will be coming out of the wood works to defend that persons right to life.
What? You live in a country with the death penalty and + 70% support for it.
The adoption of positive basic values is what is a "good thing". You can argue that Western values are derived from Judeo-Christian values, but you can have one without the other.
People who become true believers abdicate their critical thinking ability in favor of magical answers and easily adopt irrational thinking. Though Christianity may be better than African tribalism I can't see either as "good" things.
Darkchampion3d on
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
I don't see Christian ideology and tribal ideology as inherently incompatible. People can believe a lot of things. For example, in the USA, a person can believe in Christian brotherhood and also believe that blacks are a bunch of thieves and Northerners are evil.
Meshing of Christianity and traditional tribal systems has led to wholesome situations like the child witches of Nigeria. I think I first read about it on BBC or some other website, but here's the first link about it I found in case anyone's interested and/or hasn't heard about it yet: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver
Actually, there seems to be some documentary about it on youtube(might contain material not for the squeamish or NSFW, I haven't seen the whole thing): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_QrZvWL65Q
They do nothing to help, nor to hinder the situation. The situation in point being a complete clusterfuck the likes of which most people in the 1st world can't begin to conceptualize. You have no food, no school, no basic health care, and you're going to worry about condoms?
I don't think the discussion is helped by this kind of stuff. Outside a few major trouble zones, 'Africa' is pretty fucking diverse and not at all like you're painting it above. Its not super happy fun times, but IIRC the worst conditions globally for humans (shortest life expectancy, lowest GDP, lowest literacy rate, etc) are actually in a few south-east asian countries.
And that completely discounts rural/urban and other demographic disparities which actually place some parts of highly developed nations on par with the worst the developing world has to offer.
The worst Asian country by HDI, discounting Iraq and Afghanistan (which are "major trouble zones"), is Bangladesh, with an HDI of 0,524. All the other countries below it are African, with the sole exception of Haiti. African nations go toe-to-toe with Latin American nations - and the USA - as the nations with the highest Gini coeficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality). Note that, while Bolivia has a Gini coeficient of 59.2 and Sierra Leone a Gini coeficient of 62.9, Bolivia's HDI is 0,723 and Sierra Leone's 0,329.
Honestly, we're all talking dismissively about "pieces of rubber", but I mantain that the situation in Africa is far, far worse than you can probably imagine, and I'm not getting this out of Hollywood. People die everyday there because they lack pieces of bread.
Also, I'll mantain that the power of the Catholic Church is really being overplayed here. The worst mishandling of AIDS contagion in Africa, considering the resources they have available, is South Africa. Catholics are a minority in South Africa, circa 7% of the population.
They do nothing to help, nor to hinder the situation. The situation in point being a complete clusterfuck the likes of which most people in the 1st world can't begin to conceptualize. You have no food, no school, no basic health care, and you're going to worry about condoms?
Per capita GDP and HIV/AIDS rates don't correlate. According to
South Africa and Botswanna have 2 of the higher per capita GDPs on the continent, yet have higher rates of infection. They each have ~80% literacy rates. Zimbabwe has over 90% literacy and still has massive infection rates. Meanwhile, nations like Congo and Sudan - which are true economic clusterfucks - have lower GDPs, lower literacy, and lower infection rates.
I think Incenjucar is referring to the myth that having sex with a virgin will cure you of your STD's?
Yes.
Which originates in the native culture.
Are we sure it originates from Africa?
Because virgin-curing was also a prevalent belief in Victorian England, a time period which correlates with heavy English influence in South Africa, specifically the taking over of Cape Colony from the Dutch. A look at the most HIV/AIDS-ravaged parts of Africa shows the highest concentration of cases in that same area - Botswanna, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, etc.
Wishda, food and water aside, AIDS is the main problem. In which case getting the churches on board is wishful thinking. This problem most likely won't be fixed by the church, which apparently has enough influence to get enough of their "health information" over to scare people away from condoms. How is any one organization supposed to provide basic needs, or condoms, or education, with the catholic church hanging around fearmongering?
There is a way to utilize the organizational strength of Christian churches in combatting AIDS. You just have to keep them away from the parts of the program where they become counterproductive - ie, the condom stuff. If we look at the ABC approach used by PEPFAR:
A = Abstinence for youth, including the delay of sexual debut and abstinence until marriage
B = Being tested for HIV and being faithful in marriage and monogamous relationships
C = Correct and consistent use of condoms for those who practice high-risk behaviours.
There's no reason the churches can't be involved with the A and B portions, and let the secular NGOs handle the C portion which the churches find so distasteful. In short, use the power of the church as one tool in a comprehensive effort, rather than leaving it to run its own completely independent operation. The church is a shitty carpenter, but it might make a damn good mitre box or chisel.
I'm pretty sure that the virgin cure myth exists worldwide. A similar belief existed about syphilis. Looking it up on google book search, Popular Beliefs and Superstitions: A Compendium of American Folklore has
SYPHILIS 11707. Having intercourse with a virgin will cure syphilis, and the
virgin will not contract the disease (DJ, M, 68, farmer, Ger., Barberton, ...
Couscous on
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
You know what the problem is? It isnt religion.
It's that these people are ignorant as fuck. What these people need is an education.
That video may be the saddest thing Ive ever seen. Merry fucking Christmas.
The one I posted? Sorry.
There's 5 more parts to it. I just finished watching it.
Not very uplifting.
Hahaha, well information needs to be shared regardless of how depressing it may be.
Is it possible that this mixing of religious beliefs with native ideologies is a long term consequence of a short term solution? Maybe I am completely wrong (and Im sort of just hypothesizing so be gentle) but I think many see religious organizations as the easiest way to aid people in foreign countries. Most religions have a belief system that lends itself towards charitable acts and have an added desire to "save souls" and as such may have an increased desire to help people. This method of aid would definitely include religious lesions and such, but the main benefit is that starving individuals are getting food, towns without water/wells are getting water/wells etc.
But this mixing of aid and religion is hindering our ability to combat the spread of HIV/AIDS (although religion is not solely to blame.) As the Catholic Church does not want to spread the use of condoms, it will do nothing to combat the myths surrounding condom use (Im not just talking about the condoms dont stop AIDS myths) or other birth control methods for that matter. What is needed is properly funded INGOs and government aid so that proper information can be given regarding sexual issues.
I guess my point is that religious organizations are good for giving out food and supplying clean water, but horrible for spreading accurate information regarding human sexuality.
Follow some of the links up in the thread. It's all there, all from sources like the BBC and Wikipedia.
No no. I believe you.
I mean why the fuck hasn't that guy been assassinated by human rights groups yet.
For that matter, how come only people with stupid, irrational or insane belief systems assassinate and kill useful people but useful people don't assassinate and kill downright dangerous and insane people?
Because "the public" wont allow us. Go on TV and say the death penalty should be applied in cases of convicted baby rape, hell rape in general. People will be coming out of the wood works to defend that persons right to life.
What? You live in a country with the death penalty and + 70% support for it.
Yes that is only used for certain crimes, while other crimes that i feel warrant the death penalty just give you a couple years.
Rape, average length of sentence 9.75 years, average time served 5.4. Sexual assault 6 years, actual time served just under 3.
While it is great living in America were we occasionally kill people for being colossal fuckups, that really is not going to stop the baby rape in Africa. So on the question of why have not some humanitarian agencies (terrorists) taken out the people advocating baby rape? Because the American public wont let us "officially" kill people outside our borders unless we are at war with that nation.
Detharin on
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited December 2008
Jesus Detharin I'm not serious about wanting it to happen!
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
"Africa" is not a country. "Africa" is not a homogenous group of people. "Africa" does not need anything, particularly from sanctimonious patronizing Westerners. Malawi might need religion, particularly the poor corn farmers of Malawi, but what I think they need more are some literacy teachers, some clean water, and some condoms.
I doubt anyone would argue your point. That said, a large portion of people living in (or is it on) the continent of Africa don't appear to need God since they already have God. I don't think anyone would argue that the problems experienced by a large number of people living in the continent of Africa are due to a lack of God. On the other hand, I suspect that the vast majority of people living in Africa don't give a fuck how patronizing or sanctimonious Westerners who want to lend a hand are (so long as patronizing and sanctimonious doesn't equal a return to Colonialism).
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
It's that these people are ignorant as fuck. What these people need is an education.
Except the Catholic Church is directly and maliciously contributing towards the ignorance. Every time someone says, "condoms don't stop AIDS" it dilutes the message.
Frankly, what African countries need to do is to pass a law prohibiting any speech suggesting against condom use, whether of effectiveness or religious grounds. And no, this doesn't offend anyone's right to free speech, because it is like screaming fire in a crowded theater.
It's that these people are ignorant as fuck. What these people need is an education.
Except the Catholic Church is directly and maliciously contributing towards the ignorance. Every time someone says, "condoms don't stop AIDS" it dilutes the message.
Frankly, what African countries need to do is to pass a law prohibiting any speech suggesting against condom use, whether of effectiveness or religious grounds. And no, this doesn't offend anyone's right to free speech, because it is like screaming fire in a crowded theater.
So pull them off the condom message, and put them where they're useful.
If you have a kickass English Lit teacher who also happens to believe that the Earth is 500 years old, you don't stop him from teaching altogether. You just restrict him to teaching the stuff he's good at.
It's that these people are ignorant as fuck. What these people need is an education.
Except the Catholic Church is directly and maliciously contributing towards the ignorance. Every time someone says, "condoms don't stop AIDS" it dilutes the message.
Frankly, what African countries need to do is to pass a law prohibiting any speech suggesting against condom use, whether of effectiveness or religious grounds. And no, this doesn't offend anyone's right to free speech, because it is like screaming fire in a crowded theater.
In some African countries & subcultures, there was already a widespread anti-condom attitude before the church started spreading their abstinence bullshit. It's not like affected countries were doing just fine and then the church came in and fucked things up; they were engaging in polygamy and widespread adultery without contraception and then the church just came in and fucked things up more. You're not going to get the laws you're talking about, not in every country, and not in the countries most affected by HIV without some significant cultural change, and the church is directly sabotaging any immediate hope for that change.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It's that these people are ignorant as fuck. What these people need is an education.
Except the Catholic Church is directly and maliciously contributing towards the ignorance. Every time someone says, "condoms don't stop AIDS" it dilutes the message.
Frankly, what African countries need to do is to pass a law prohibiting any speech suggesting against condom use, whether of effectiveness or religious grounds. And no, this doesn't offend anyone's right to free speech, because it is like screaming fire in a crowded theater.
In some African countries & subcultures, there was already a widespread anti-condom attitude before the church started spreading their abstinence bullshit. It's not like affected countries were doing just fine and then the church came in and fucked things up; they were engaging in polygamy and widespread adultery without contraception and then the church just came in and fucked things up more. You're not going to get the laws you're talking about, not in every country, and not in the countries most affected by HIV without some significant cultural change, and the church is directly sabotaging any immediate hope for that change.
How is it fucking things up more to say if you're not going to use condoms, you should poke your dick in less things?
ever read a condom box? It specifically says that it doesn't prevent HIV/AIDS.
THe church doesn't hand out condoms because it is considered a sin to use birth control, that is a tenet of their religion, to apply reason to a tenet of religion is useless. Furthermore, blaming a lack of condom use on the church implies that people are listening to the preaching and slavishly following it. If people were listening then they wouldn't be having sex before marriage and people who choose 1 partner and only have sex with them can only get their diseases. The AIDS problem can hardly be placed at the feet of some missionaries who do more good than harm.
ever read a condom box? It specifically says that it doesn't prevent HIV/AIDS.
THe church doesn't hand out condoms because it is considered a sin to use birth control, that is a tenet of their religion, to apply reason to a tenet of religion is useless. Furthermore, blaming a lack of condom use on the church implies that people are listening to the preaching and slavishly following it. If people were listening then they wouldn't be having sex before marriage and people who choose 1 partner and only have sex with them can only get their diseases. The AIDS problem can hardly be placed at the feet of some missionaries who do more good than harm.
A) Using condoms isn't a natural urge on the level of having sex. The churchs have been spreading misinformation about condoms, telling people that they don't prevent HIV and such.
ever read a condom box? It specifically says that it doesn't prevent HIV/AIDS.
THe church doesn't hand out condoms because it is considered a sin to use birth control, that is a tenet of their religion, to apply reason to a tenet of religion is useless. Furthermore, blaming a lack of condom use on the church implies that people are listening to the preaching and slavishly following it. If people were listening then they wouldn't be having sex before marriage and people who choose 1 partner and only have sex with them can only get their diseases. The AIDS problem can hardly be placed at the feet of some missionaries who do more good than harm.
A) Using condoms isn't a natural urge on the level of having sex. The churchs have been spreading misinformation about condoms, telling people that they don't prevent HIV and such.
Condoms are not 100% effective at preventing pregnency when used properly, much less preventing disease. telling people that the only way to be sure to not catch HIV is by not having sex is not misinformation. Also Its irrelevant how natural an urge it is, you ignore natural urges to follow rules all the time its called society.
Condoms are not 100% effective at preventing pregnency when used properly, much less preventing disease. telling people that the only way to be sure to not catch HIV is by not having sex is not misinformation. Also Its irrelevant how natural an urge it is, you ignore natural urges to follow rules all the time its called society.
Abstinence is like communism. It only works in theory, and when it fails, its supporters claim that the attempt wouldn't have failed if human beings could just be perfect for a change.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
See, I don't think telling people "keep it in your fucking pants; I don't care how mcuh BC is present" in counties where half the population has HIV is a bad thing.
See, I don't think telling people "keep it in your fucking pants; I don't care how mcuh BC is present" in counties where half the population has HIV is a bad thing.
Abstinence only education does not work
It's only success is people with it who have sex are far less likely to use BC.
Condoms are not 100% effective at preventing pregnency when used properly, much less preventing disease. telling people that the only way to be sure to not catch HIV is by not having sex is not misinformation. Also Its irrelevant how natural an urge it is, you ignore natural urges to follow rules all the time its called society.
Abstinence is like communism. It only works in theory, and when it fails, its supporters claim that the attempt wouldn't have failed if human beings could just be perfect for a change.
exactly, it is not a crime for people to attempt communist, yet if a church whose stated goal is to bring people closer to god/perfection tries it they are thrown to the wolves, accused of baby rape etc. but go to a college campus and a lot of the same people who are attacking the church are sining the praises of socialism/communism.
Condoms are not 100% effective at preventing pregnency when used properly, much less preventing disease. telling people that the only way to be sure to not catch HIV is by not having sex is not misinformation. Also Its irrelevant how natural an urge it is, you ignore natural urges to follow rules all the time its called society.
Abstinence is like communism. It only works in theory, and when it fails, its supporters claim that the attempt wouldn't have failed if human beings could just be perfect for a change.
exactly, it is not a crime for people to attempt communist, yet if a church whose stated goal is to bring people closer to god/perfection tries it they are thrown to the wolves, accused of baby rape etc. but go to a college campus and a lot of the same people who are attacking the church are sining the praises of socialism/communism.
I think you missed the point of my post entirely, and you managed to include a nice little bit of retardation at the end when you conflated socialism and communism.
As nexuscrawler said above, abstinence-only education does not work.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
See, I don't think telling people "keep it in your fucking pants; I don't care how mcuh BC is present" in counties where half the population has HIV is a bad thing.
Abstinence only education does not work
It's only success is people with it who have sex are far less likely to use BC.
With or without condoms, not sticking your dick into every random third person tends to slow the spread of STDs.
Condoms are an important part of fighting AIDS. But in a country with a 40% infection rate and a societal acceptance of concurrent polygamy, condoms alone aren't going to be enough without other accompanying behavioral changes.
Condoms are not 100% effective at preventing pregnency when used properly, much less preventing disease. telling people that the only way to be sure to not catch HIV is by not having sex is not misinformation. Also Its irrelevant how natural an urge it is, you ignore natural urges to follow rules all the time its called society.
Abstinence is like communism. It only works in theory, and when it fails, its supporters claim that the attempt wouldn't have failed if human beings could just be perfect for a change.
exactly, it is not a crime for people to attempt communist, yet if a church whose stated goal is to bring people closer to god/perfection tries it they are thrown to the wolves, accused of baby rape etc. but go to a college campus and a lot of the same people who are attacking the church are sining the praises of socialism/communism.
I think you missed the point of my post entirely, and you managed to include a nice little bit of retardation at the end when you conflated socialism and communism.
As nexuscrawler said above, abstinence-only education does not work.
and you missed my sarcasm, I am not the one confusing them.
All you have to back up your claim of it not working is your personal opinion and some people that may or may not have listened. Besides my point is not that it does or doesn't work so much that you shouldn't expect a religous organization to suspend a strongly held belief whenever you think it might help the situation. Especially when if people followed what they say, they would be safe. They say dont have sex you'll get a disease, people have sex....and get diseases. You say stupid catholics this is all your fault. Your position is nonsensical.
Besides my point is not that it does or doesn't work so much that you shouldn't expect a religous organization to suspend a strongly held belief whenever you think it might help the situation.
Actually I expect them to do exactly that. Their religion ends where reality begins. If they spout nonsense and it hurts a situation, they've committed a morally reprehensible act. I don't care how deep-set or traditional their beliefs are.
In some African countries & subcultures, there was already a widespread anti-condom attitude before the church started spreading their abstinence bullshit. It's not like affected countries were doing just fine and then the church came in and fucked things up; they were engaging in polygamy and widespread adultery without contraception and then the church just came in and fucked things up more.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Aren't there also instances of groups in Africa basically claiming that introducing birth control is an attempt at eugenics, or at least an insult to local culture and/or masculinity?
Aren't there also instances of groups in Africa basically claiming that introducing birth control is an attempt at eugenics, or at least an insult to local culture and/or masculinity?
Yes. On all three counts.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Posts
I'm not a Christian, but I do think that Christianity is often a force for good when it's not being a force for stupid. To the extent that it's better than some of the batshit tribalism in Africa, the cynical pragmatist in me thinks that an introduction of Christianity may well be a good thing, even if I don't personally buy into it.
Ideally, they'd all believe exactly what I believe, because I'm right and also awesome, but as a second choice Christianity works, too. Of course, the tone of that article is extremely condescending. But whatever.
In many regions this is even more pronounced. Some Mayan Catholics are so Mayan that they aren't officially recognised by Rome, but they still consider themselves Catholics. Many of your more recently converted societies aren't so much 'Christian' the way we think of it in America as having a rubber stamp of Christianity on something very different.
I've never heard of any church that actually practices Apostolic Christianity that we see in the New Testament, but since we have only a very vague idea of what that was anyway, it's difficult to tell. Of course, even Christians back then varied greatly depending on the region, as we see in the letters of Paul.
"Africa" is not a country. "Africa" is not a homogenous group of people. "Africa" does not need anything, particularly from sanctimonious patronizing Westerners. Malawi might need religion, particularly the poor corn farmers of Malawi, but what I think they need more are some literacy teachers, some clean water, and some condoms.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That was Yahja Jammeh, President of The Gambia. He says he can personally cure AIDS - but only on Thursdays - and told all sufferers to stop taking their anti-viral medications.
What? You live in a country with the death penalty and + 70% support for it.
People who become true believers abdicate their critical thinking ability in favor of magical answers and easily adopt irrational thinking. Though Christianity may be better than African tribalism I can't see either as "good" things.
Meshing of Christianity and traditional tribal systems has led to wholesome situations like the child witches of Nigeria. I think I first read about it on BBC or some other website, but here's the first link about it I found in case anyone's interested and/or hasn't heard about it yet: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver
Actually, there seems to be some documentary about it on youtube(might contain material not for the squeamish or NSFW, I haven't seen the whole thing):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_QrZvWL65Q
You recall incorrectly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
The worst Asian country by HDI, discounting Iraq and Afghanistan (which are "major trouble zones"), is Bangladesh, with an HDI of 0,524. All the other countries below it are African, with the sole exception of Haiti. African nations go toe-to-toe with Latin American nations - and the USA - as the nations with the highest Gini coeficient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality). Note that, while Bolivia has a Gini coeficient of 59.2 and Sierra Leone a Gini coeficient of 62.9, Bolivia's HDI is 0,723 and Sierra Leone's 0,329.
Honestly, we're all talking dismissively about "pieces of rubber", but I mantain that the situation in Africa is far, far worse than you can probably imagine, and I'm not getting this out of Hollywood. People die everyday there because they lack pieces of bread.
Also, I'll mantain that the power of the Catholic Church is really being overplayed here. The worst mishandling of AIDS contagion in Africa, considering the resources they have available, is South Africa. Catholics are a minority in South Africa, circa 7% of the population.
Per capita GDP and HIV/AIDS rates don't correlate. According to
http://www.aidsinafrica.net/map.php
South Africa and Botswanna have 2 of the higher per capita GDPs on the continent, yet have higher rates of infection. They each have ~80% literacy rates. Zimbabwe has over 90% literacy and still has massive infection rates. Meanwhile, nations like Congo and Sudan - which are true economic clusterfucks - have lower GDPs, lower literacy, and lower infection rates.
Are we sure it originates from Africa?
Because virgin-curing was also a prevalent belief in Victorian England, a time period which correlates with heavy English influence in South Africa, specifically the taking over of Cape Colony from the Dutch. A look at the most HIV/AIDS-ravaged parts of Africa shows the highest concentration of cases in that same area - Botswanna, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, etc.
There is a way to utilize the organizational strength of Christian churches in combatting AIDS. You just have to keep them away from the parts of the program where they become counterproductive - ie, the condom stuff. If we look at the ABC approach used by PEPFAR:
A = Abstinence for youth, including the delay of sexual debut and abstinence until marriage
B = Being tested for HIV and being faithful in marriage and monogamous relationships
C = Correct and consistent use of condoms for those who practice high-risk behaviours.
There's no reason the churches can't be involved with the A and B portions, and let the secular NGOs handle the C portion which the churches find so distasteful. In short, use the power of the church as one tool in a comprehensive effort, rather than leaving it to run its own completely independent operation. The church is a shitty carpenter, but it might make a damn good mitre box or chisel.
It's that these people are ignorant as fuck. What these people need is an education.
The one I posted? Sorry.
There's 5 more parts to it. I just finished watching it.
Not very uplifting.
Hahaha, well information needs to be shared regardless of how depressing it may be.
Is it possible that this mixing of religious beliefs with native ideologies is a long term consequence of a short term solution? Maybe I am completely wrong (and Im sort of just hypothesizing so be gentle) but I think many see religious organizations as the easiest way to aid people in foreign countries. Most religions have a belief system that lends itself towards charitable acts and have an added desire to "save souls" and as such may have an increased desire to help people. This method of aid would definitely include religious lesions and such, but the main benefit is that starving individuals are getting food, towns without water/wells are getting water/wells etc.
But this mixing of aid and religion is hindering our ability to combat the spread of HIV/AIDS (although religion is not solely to blame.) As the Catholic Church does not want to spread the use of condoms, it will do nothing to combat the myths surrounding condom use (Im not just talking about the condoms dont stop AIDS myths) or other birth control methods for that matter. What is needed is properly funded INGOs and government aid so that proper information can be given regarding sexual issues.
I guess my point is that religious organizations are good for giving out food and supplying clean water, but horrible for spreading accurate information regarding human sexuality.
Yes that is only used for certain crimes, while other crimes that i feel warrant the death penalty just give you a couple years.
Rape, average length of sentence 9.75 years, average time served 5.4. Sexual assault 6 years, actual time served just under 3.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/psatsfv.pdf
While it is great living in America were we occasionally kill people for being colossal fuckups, that really is not going to stop the baby rape in Africa. So on the question of why have not some humanitarian agencies (terrorists) taken out the people advocating baby rape? Because the American public wont let us "officially" kill people outside our borders unless we are at war with that nation.
To bad, might actually make a difference.
Unless you think the Witch Doctors are going to forfeit the power they hold over people, and start telling them the cold hard truth.
Or the Church Missionaries want to start teaching about condoms and safe sex.
Be less psychopathic. I'm done with this line of conversation.
Feeling a bit sheltered? Oh well thankfully we can all return to our happy little lives where this stuff doesn't happen.
At least not since President Ford issued order 11905 in 1976.
I doubt anyone would argue your point. That said, a large portion of people living in (or is it on) the continent of Africa don't appear to need God since they already have God. I don't think anyone would argue that the problems experienced by a large number of people living in the continent of Africa are due to a lack of God. On the other hand, I suspect that the vast majority of people living in Africa don't give a fuck how patronizing or sanctimonious Westerners who want to lend a hand are (so long as patronizing and sanctimonious doesn't equal a return to Colonialism).
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
Except the Catholic Church is directly and maliciously contributing towards the ignorance. Every time someone says, "condoms don't stop AIDS" it dilutes the message.
Frankly, what African countries need to do is to pass a law prohibiting any speech suggesting against condom use, whether of effectiveness or religious grounds. And no, this doesn't offend anyone's right to free speech, because it is like screaming fire in a crowded theater.
:^:
So pull them off the condom message, and put them where they're useful.
If you have a kickass English Lit teacher who also happens to believe that the Earth is 500 years old, you don't stop him from teaching altogether. You just restrict him to teaching the stuff he's good at.
In some African countries & subcultures, there was already a widespread anti-condom attitude before the church started spreading their abstinence bullshit. It's not like affected countries were doing just fine and then the church came in and fucked things up; they were engaging in polygamy and widespread adultery without contraception and then the church just came in and fucked things up more. You're not going to get the laws you're talking about, not in every country, and not in the countries most affected by HIV without some significant cultural change, and the church is directly sabotaging any immediate hope for that change.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
How is it fucking things up more to say if you're not going to use condoms, you should poke your dick in less things?
THe church doesn't hand out condoms because it is considered a sin to use birth control, that is a tenet of their religion, to apply reason to a tenet of religion is useless. Furthermore, blaming a lack of condom use on the church implies that people are listening to the preaching and slavishly following it. If people were listening then they wouldn't be having sex before marriage and people who choose 1 partner and only have sex with them can only get their diseases. The AIDS problem can hardly be placed at the feet of some missionaries who do more good than harm.
A) Using condoms isn't a natural urge on the level of having sex.
Condoms are not 100% effective at preventing pregnency when used properly, much less preventing disease. telling people that the only way to be sure to not catch HIV is by not having sex is not misinformation. Also Its irrelevant how natural an urge it is, you ignore natural urges to follow rules all the time its called society.
Abstinence is like communism. It only works in theory, and when it fails, its supporters claim that the attempt wouldn't have failed if human beings could just be perfect for a change.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Abstinence only education does not work
It's only success is people with it who have sex are far less likely to use BC.
exactly, it is not a crime for people to attempt communist, yet if a church whose stated goal is to bring people closer to god/perfection tries it they are thrown to the wolves, accused of baby rape etc. but go to a college campus and a lot of the same people who are attacking the church are sining the praises of socialism/communism.
I think you missed the point of my post entirely, and you managed to include a nice little bit of retardation at the end when you conflated socialism and communism.
As nexuscrawler said above, abstinence-only education does not work.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
With or without condoms, not sticking your dick into every random third person tends to slow the spread of STDs.
Condoms are an important part of fighting AIDS. But in a country with a 40% infection rate and a societal acceptance of concurrent polygamy, condoms alone aren't going to be enough without other accompanying behavioral changes.
and you missed my sarcasm, I am not the one confusing them.
All you have to back up your claim of it not working is your personal opinion and some people that may or may not have listened. Besides my point is not that it does or doesn't work so much that you shouldn't expect a religous organization to suspend a strongly held belief whenever you think it might help the situation. Especially when if people followed what they say, they would be safe. They say dont have sex you'll get a disease, people have sex....and get diseases. You say stupid catholics this is all your fault. Your position is nonsensical.
Are you asking me to cite?
Actually I expect them to do exactly that. Their religion ends where reality begins. If they spout nonsense and it hurts a situation, they've committed a morally reprehensible act. I don't care how deep-set or traditional their beliefs are.
Actually that's very different from what I said.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Yes. On all three counts.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.