I may have come across more favourable to stalin, but that was unintended. I just wanted to say that given the totality of the war on the East and the delay to the launch of the Western invasion of Europe, these two all but sealed the fate of the Eastern countries. Stalin sure as hell wasn't going to allow anyone else to march up to the Don without bogging them down in Poland, the Ukraine and the Balkans.
As to your second point, the rhetoric of 'nothing but final surrender' is one thing, but I'd imagine public support for of FDR and Churchill would have waned if combined casualties started rising above the 2 million mark. It was just that the Soviets mauled all the best divisions of the Wehrmact, sparing the Western Front from Kursks and Stalingrads.
It's true that there were large numbers of German troops on the western front that were below par (often captured Russian 'Ost' troops), but it's not true that 'all' the best Wermacht and SS divisions were busy being killed in Russia. Some were being funnelled back from Russia in time to attack the invading western allies - going from my memory of Anthony Beevor's D-Day here, but I think at least the Das Reich and Hitlerjugend SS Panzer divisions were fighting the allies on the western front, and they were considered among the most aggressive (and most likely to commit appalling atrocities) Germany had to offer. I'm not disputing that Russia paid the blood price for victory over Germany: that much is plain. But there are little myths about that larger truth.
And I think labelling as simple rhetoric the 'unconditional surrender' position of Churchill and FDR without any supporting evidence that either government was willing to negotiate is more than a little speculative.
EDIT: This thread makes me want to start a thread about WWI to just blather on about the battles and so forth.
EDIT EDIT: But yeah, the west was unwilling to fight Stalin for control of the eastern states his army trundled through on their way to Berlin, and thus could do very little to stop him from dropping the Iron Curtain. Churchill saw how things would pan out in 1944, in the oft-quoted notes he is supposed to have jotted down and shown Stalin that lay out in percentages how much influence the USSR and the west would have over countries like Greece, Romania, Hungary, etc.
I really don't like Francebashing because I grew up in a household that Francebashed all the time, so I'm inherently wary of it, but what the fuck France in WWII
Really, what the fuck
Hey, I love making fun of the frogs as much as the next guy. But the French military gets kind of an unfair rap in WWII. They got smacked around by Germany, but so did every other country in Europe. The UK survived because they are an island and the USSR had the luxury of being able to sacrifice thousands of miles and millions of lives while learning how to counter the German military's innovative approach to mobile warfare.
If Germany had been a neighbor of the US in 1939, they would have very likely been able to invade us and take Washington.
At the beginning of WWII, the Western Allies didn't have any realistic options when it came to protecting Eastern Europe. At the end of WWII, barring going to war with the Soviet Union (which was probably winnable- the Red Army was at the end of its manpower and logistics rope when it rolled into Berlin. But that option was politically untenable) , the fact that the Red Army occupied Eastern Europe also left the West with few options.
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Second, Poland screwed itself over. As Churchill summed up succinctly - 'The defence of Poland depends upon having an effective Eastern Front, and an effective Eastern Front depends on the participation of the USSR.' Except that up to the very end Poland steadfastly refused to allow Russian troops onto Polish soil, and when Britain and France sent negotiators to talk about the possibility of a joint treaty against Hitler they were faced with a flat question they couldn't answer, "Would Poland let us move our troops to meet Hitler or not?"
I think the above statement is unfair. Yet it shows the mentality of western leaders at the time. The absolute dream of British and French goverments was a nazi-soviet war. I don't deny that from a western standpoint it would have been an elegant solution. It would have meant Poland becoming a soviet satelite in 1939 instead of 1945. From our perspective it seems like a small difference, but it was unacceptable for Polish politicians at the time, and for good reason.
The way I see it, your saying that Munich agreement wasn't enough, and the West should have thrown two countries to the wolves instead of one.
(And that's not mentioning that Britain and France signed over one of the most developed (in terms of social and political structure) Eastern European countries with an effective well trained military, as well as one of those most interested in ties with the West) without even trying, and pledged to go to war over Poland, which, put simply, wasn't exactly the friendliest of nations to the West.)
The British thought that Poland was given too much in the Wersal treaty. That outlook dominated the mentality of the western societies of the time. Czechoslovakia didn't carry that stigma and it got preferential treatment as a result (Spa Treaty as an example). Strangly enough that made them more loyal to the West, and made Poles resentfull.
Second, Poland screwed itself over. As Churchill summed up succinctly - 'The defence of Poland depends upon having an effective Eastern Front, and an effective Eastern Front depends on the participation of the USSR.' Except that up to the very end Poland steadfastly refused to allow Russian troops onto Polish soil, and when Britain and France sent negotiators to talk about the possibility of a joint treaty against Hitler they were faced with a flat question they couldn't answer, "Would Poland let us move our troops to meet Hitler or not?"
I think the above statement is unfair. Yet it shows the mentality of western leaders at the time. The absolute dream of British and French goverments was a nazi-soviet war. I don't deny that from a western standpoint it would have been an elegant solution. It would have meant Poland becoming a soviet satelite in 1939 instead of 1945. From our perspective it seems like a small difference, but it was unacceptable for Polish politicians at the time, and for good reason.
The way I see it, your saying that Munich agreement wasn't enough, and the West should have thrown two countries to the wolves instead of one.
Well, would you consider Stalin or Hitler the better alternative? By 1939 the Polish situation was that they were sandwiched between two nations that were both on some level inherently hostile towards the country's existence, so there was never going to be a pretty solution either way. Of course, they helped set it up themselves by participating in the dismembering of Czechoslovakia.
Also I think the guys muttering about how people shouldn't feel obligated for stronger nations to come save their asses kinda miss the point - they had signed treaties. France and Britain (heck, the USSR, while we're at it) were legally obligated to come to their aid.
Well, would you consider Stalin or Hitler the better alternative? By 1939 the Polish situation was that they were sandwiched between two nations that were both on some level inherently hostile towards the country's existence, so there was never going to be a pretty solution either way. Of course, they helped set it up themselves by participating in the dismembering of Czechoslovakia.
There was a pretty solution. It was to fight Germany and get help from Britain and France. Didn't work though.
Poland would have never taken help from the Soviets. They would have signed a pact with the Germans. Not the preferred solution but it was considered the lesser evil at the time.
Also Zaolzie was a dick move without a doubt, but I don't think Poland shares any responsibility for Munich, and the fall of Czechoslovakia. That one is all Chamberlain and Daladier.
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
Actually the soviets camped a little way away from Warsaw, saying that when the polish resistance began fighting the Nazi's they'd jump in and help
so the polish though "aight" and started killing bitches
but the soviets didn't come
and then the Nazi's counterattacked
Soviets didn't want to try and occupy a functioning warsaw
Well, would you consider Stalin or Hitler the better alternative? By 1939 the Polish situation was that they were sandwiched between two nations that were both on some level inherently hostile towards the country's existence, so there was never going to be a pretty solution either way. Of course, they helped set it up themselves by participating in the dismembering of Czechoslovakia.
There was a pretty solution. It was to fight Germany and get help from Britain and France. Didn't work though.
Poland would have never taken help from the Soviets. They would have signed a pact with the Germans. Not the preferred solution but it was considered the lesser evil at the time.
Also Zaolzie was a dick move without a doubt, but I don't think Poland shares any responsibility for Munich, and the fall of Czechoslovakia. That one is all Chamberlain and Daladier.
How could that solution have worked out when France and Britain could not actually engage the German forces attacking Poland? By that Germany had actually gotten their Western defensive line running, and there would have been a long, hard slog any way you looked at it.
Concernign Poland's refusal - um, yeah, that's kind of what we were discussing, wasn't it? Their refusal to allow the one army that could have done some good to enter their territory was what doomed them.
Well, would you consider Stalin or Hitler the better alternative? By 1939 the Polish situation was that they were sandwiched between two nations that were both on some level inherently hostile towards the country's existence, so there was never going to be a pretty solution either way. Of course, they helped set it up themselves by participating in the dismembering of Czechoslovakia.
There was a pretty solution. It was to fight Germany and get help from Britain and France. Didn't work though.
Poland would have never taken help from the Soviets. They would have signed a pact with the Germans. Not the preferred solution but it was considered the lesser evil at the time.
Also Zaolzie was a dick move without a doubt, but I don't think Poland shares any responsibility for Munich, and the fall of Czechoslovakia. That one is all Chamberlain and Daladier.
How could that solution have worked out when France and Britain could not actually engage the German forces attacking Poland? By that Germany had actually gotten their Western defensive line running, and there would have been a long, hard slog any way you looked at it.
Concernign Poland's refusal - um, yeah, that's kind of what we were discussing, wasn't it? Their refusal to allow the one army that could have done some good to enter their territory was what doomed them.
By my understanding, although I'm aware hindsight is 20/20, Germany didn't have a very strong defence on the Western border in September 1939. Nearly all their motorised divisions were in Poland. Had France made a concerted effort at an offensive, they could have pushed pretty far into Germany.
Now maybe intelligence indicated stronger defences, I'm not sure, but my understanding is that the French Army were drowning in inertia and reluctant to go on the offensive anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Actually the soviets camped a little way away from Warsaw, saying that when the polish resistance began fighting the Nazi's they'd jump in and help
so the polish though "aight" and started killing bitches
but the soviets didn't come
and then the Nazi's counterattacked
Soviets didn't want to try and occupy a functioning warsaw
It's unfortunate--very unfortunate--but at the same time, I would say, not remotely surprising. By this time, the USSR had already been bled on the order of few million lives (well, tens of millions already), and the popular hatred of Poland (and likewise, the popular hatred in Poland, of various Soviet nationalities and particularly the 'Judeo-Marxist conspiracy') wasn't just going to vanish because they hated the Germans more.
Obviously, Poland, besieged through occupation, was in no position to have offered assistance to, say, Moscow or Stalingrad on the brink, but if they had been, I'd be shocked if they did. Kind of a non-issue, because they, beyond any shadow of a doubt, would not, and I can't say I blame them. Likewise, I do blame the Red Army General Staff for leading the resistance in Warsaw on, but to actually have intervened would have been against their interests in a big way.
By my understanding, although I'm aware hindsight is 20/20, Germany didn't have a very strong defence on the Western border in September 1939. Nearly all their motorised divisions were in Poland. Had France made a concerted effort at an offensive, they could have pushed pretty far into Germany.
Now maybe intelligence indicated stronger defences, I'm not sure, but my understanding is that the French Army were drowning in inertia and reluctant to go on the offensive anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Right - Germany was never equipped to face war on two fronts. The West missed their golden opportunity back in 1938 when they could basically parked an army in West Germany and there couldn't have been a thing Hitler could have done about it. They had a grand total of 12 divisions (of which 7 were reserve) for the Western front, for crying out loud.
Now, during Sep 1939, the forces at the Western border + fortifications were still pretty week. But they would have held out - long enough, anyway, for Hitler to smash Poland and to get his troops back to the Western theatre. Or maybe he'd have been spooked enough to call the invasion off (unlikely, though.) Either way, France still didn't move and Hitler happily seized the initiative.
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
edited October 2009
I remember reading a book on Polish fighter pilots
If the british pilots were knights in shining armour, the polish pilots were knights in shining armour with rocket boots, mini guns and 4 foot penises
The polish learnt tryign to fight the germans in vastly outdated technology, below even a german trainer, and to hit a german plane they had to trick the germans into getting close.
So the polish, after being given teh run around, finally got to England, and were finally given some big boy airplanes, they were nuts
Guys, there's something I dunno if you know, but I think it's important -
The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is just that - a myth. It's called a mobile antitank squad, with horses providing the mobility, and actual antitank weapons providing the firepower. of course once a few of the guys were killed the Germans showed it to the world and were all 'These guys are dumbasses.'
The world's response was, 'Wow, these guys are heroes.'
Warsaw Upraising was at it's heart an anti-soviet affair. The soldiers belived that there was going cooperation with the Red Army, but the leaders knew better. It's kinda hard to expect help from Stalin when you are acting against him. It is unfortunately idolized in modern Poland despite the stupidity.
Now, during Sep 1939, the forces at the Western border + fortifications were still pretty week. But they would have held out - long enough, anyway, for Hitler to smash Poland and to get his troops back to the Western theatre. Or maybe he'd have been spooked enough to call the invasion off (unlikely, though.) Either way, France still didn't move and Hitler happily seized the initiative.
If the allies would have moved Stalin wouldn't have done a damn thing. It would take a lot more time for the Germans to control all of Poland on their own.
Keitel wrote that their fortifications in the West in 1939 were a lot weaker then they made it out to be and the divisions positioned on the western front were considered inferior.
Guys, there's something I dunno if you know, but I think it's important -
The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is just that - a myth. It's called a mobile antitank squad, with horses providing the mobility, and actual antitank weapons providing the firepower. of course once a few of the guys were killed the Germans showed it to the world and were all 'These guys are dumbasses.'
The world's response was, 'Wow, these guys are heroes.'
Yeah, I heard that story. Propaganda backfire extraordinaire.
Poland did a pretty good job with what they had. It's just unfortunate they were vastly outnumbered and underequipped, and then suckerpunched by the Soviet Union. And Poles who escaped to the west were quite important on a number of engagements, like Monte Cassino and the Falaise Pocket.
It's a shame that many of them were fighting for a free Poland which they didn't end up getting. I understand a large proportion didn't return to Poland.
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The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
Guys, there's something I dunno if you know, but I think it's important -
The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is just that - a myth. It's called a mobile antitank squad, with horses providing the mobility, and actual antitank weapons providing the firepower. of course once a few of the guys were killed the Germans showed it to the world and were all 'These guys are dumbasses.'
The world's response was, 'Wow, these guys are heroes.'
Yeah, I heard that story. Propaganda backfire extraordinaire.
Poland did a pretty good job with what they had. It's just unfortunate they were vastly outnumbered and underequipped, and then suckerpunched by the Soviet Union. And Poles who escaped to the west were quite important on a number of engagements, like Monte Cassino and the Falaise Pocket.
It's a shame that many of them were fighting for a free Poland which they didn't end up getting. I understand a large proportion didn't return to Poland.
Many of them were enjoying the local wildlife in their new places of residence :winky:
Warsaw Upraising was at it's heart an anti-soviet affair. The soldiers belived that there was going cooperation with the Red Army, but the leaders knew better. It's kinda hard to expect help from Stalin when you are acting against him. It is unfortunately idolized in modern Poland despite the stupidity.
Stupidity aside, this sort of thing tends to be glorified to the extreme in all countries.
Side note: the commander of the Red Army force that stood by at the Warsaw Uprising was Konstantin Rokossovsky, Marshal of the USSR, promoted the June before the uprising by Stalin. Rokossovsky was arrested in the purges, but rehabilitated by Stalin personally (according to his memoirs), and probably one of Stalin's 'favorite' Marshals.
The fact that Rokossovsky was Polish (and that it was pretty common knowledge that he was born in Warsaw) might have led some of the lower echelons of the resistance to think they had a sympathetic commander in him. But the Warsaw intelligensia should have known he was close to Stalin, had fought with the Bolsheviks in the Revolution against both the Whites and the West (including Polish nationalists), and was much closer to his adopted homeland than his actual one.
He was later made Marshal of Poland and Defense Minister there, and was part of the suppression movement against independence, tracking down and arresting the Home Army, etc. There seemed to be a very heavy animosity both ways. Died in the USSR. "In Russia, they say I'm a Pole, in Poland they call me Russian," is a statement of his he's known for.
Guys, there's something I dunno if you know, but I think it's important -
The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is just that - a myth. It's called a mobile antitank squad, with horses providing the mobility, and actual antitank weapons providing the firepower. of course once a few of the guys were killed the Germans showed it to the world and were all 'These guys are dumbasses.'
The world's response was, 'Wow, these guys are heroes.'
I read Philipp Von Boeselager's Valkyrie (his memoirs of the war and the plot to kill Hitler, basically) and horses are fucking awesome in modern land wars. They don't require fuel, they can traverse swamps at a reasonable speed and with good treatment from trained soldiers they're a lot less likely to break down than jeeps or motorcycles (both of Boeselager's horses survived the war, by the way).
Guys, there's something I dunno if you know, but I think it's important -
The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is just that - a myth. It's called a mobile antitank squad, with horses providing the mobility, and actual antitank weapons providing the firepower. of course once a few of the guys were killed the Germans showed it to the world and were all 'These guys are dumbasses.'
The world's response was, 'Wow, these guys are heroes.'
I read Philipp Von Boeselager's Valkyrie (his memoirs of the war and the plot to kill Hitler, basically) and horses are fucking awesome in modern land wars. They don't require fuel, they can traverse swamps at a reasonable speed and with good treatment from trained soldiers they're a lot less likely to break down than jeeps or motorcycles (both of Boeselager's horses survived the war, by the way).
Horses got kind of trumped by helicopters and hovercraft
Guys, there's something I dunno if you know, but I think it's important -
The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is just that - a myth. It's called a mobile antitank squad, with horses providing the mobility, and actual antitank weapons providing the firepower. of course once a few of the guys were killed the Germans showed it to the world and were all 'These guys are dumbasses.'
The world's response was, 'Wow, these guys are heroes.'
I read Philipp Von Boeselager's Valkyrie (his memoirs of the war and the plot to kill Hitler, basically) and horses are fucking awesome in modern land wars. They don't require fuel, they can traverse swamps at a reasonable speed and with good treatment from trained soldiers they're a lot less likely to break down than jeeps or motorcycles (both of Boeselager's horses survived the war, by the way).
Horses got kind of trumped by helicopters and hovercraft
Oh absolutely, but I think horses would still have their uses when you don't want to come flying over blasting Ride of the Valkyries from your boombox.
We are thinking of world opinion if the anti-Nazis in Warsaw are in effect abandoned. We believe that all three of us should do the utmost to save as many of the patriots as possible. We hope that you will drop immediate supplies and munitions to the patriot Poles in Warsaw, or you will agree to help our planes in doing it very quickly. We hope you will approve. The time element is of extreme importance.
I have received your and Mr. Churchill's messages regarding Warsaw. I would like to express my considerations.
Sooner or later but the truth about a handful of criminals, who for the sake of seizure of power undertook the Warsaw adventure, will be universally known. These people have used the trustfulness of the Warsawites, having thrown many almost unarmed people under the German guns, tanks and aviation. A situation has been created when every coming day is used not by the Poles for the task of liberation of Warsaw, but by the Hitlerites who are inhumanly annihilating the citizens of Warsaw. From a military point of view, the created situation which is attracting increased attention of the Germans to Warsaw is exteremely unprofitably for the Red Army as well as for the Poles. Meanwhile, the Soviet troops having met lately with new significant attempts of the Germans to develop counterattacks, are making everything possible to crush those counterattacks of the Hitlerites and develop a broad offensive at Warsaw. There can be no doubt that the Red Army will not spare any efforts in order to break the Germans around Warsaw and to free Warsaw for the Poles. That will be the best and most effective help for the Polse who are anti-Nazis.
Stalin refused permission to use Soviet airbases in Poland for the supply drops. Instead, the RAF was forced to fly missions halfway across the continent, and the Air Corps didn't participate, in fear of antagonizing the Soviets into a separate peace.
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Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
Sounds more or less like Stalin 1) didn't trust the Polish Home Army and Polish patriots (which he shouldn't, common sense says), and 2) didn't want to risk Rokossovsky's army when huge losses had already been incurred anyway.
Wait, you mean the authorities who were screaming at England about concentration and death camps, only to be ignored? The ones that delivered information from a pole who volunteered to go to Auschwitz?
Or how about the home authorities, the Home Army, which executed collaborators of any kind and welcomed Jews into the resistance?
Or are you talking about the Germans who invaded the country and claimed authority?
*Hint, only one of those was in the business of Jew killing, I'll let you guess which one.
Wait, you mean the authorities who were screaming at England about concentration and death camps, only to be ignored? The ones that delivered information from a pole who volunteered to go to Auschwitz?
Or how about the home authorities, the Home Army, which executed collaborators of any kind and welcomed Jews into the resistance?
Or are you talking about the Germans who invaded the country and claimed authority?
*Hint, only one of those was in the business of Jew killing, I'll let you guess which one.
Like I said, the Pollacks were BOTH victims and victimizers.
You don't get to ignore the wrongs you've done in light of the good you've also done.
edit: or are you denying that there was ever any significant number of polish individuals turning in their jewish neighbors and reappropriating their property as their own? If you ARE denying this, then can you tell me what happened to all of the formerly Jewish property after the war?
Were they forced to fold to Stalin's demands? Or did the west just not give a shit about what happened east of Germany?
There is a lot of excellent literature on the Potsdam & Yalta conferences, I'd say that you should go ahead and read some of it(and make an effort to read both sides, as most of it has been published during the cold war).
Wasn't there a fear after Stalingrad and Kursk that if we didn't give Stalin what he wanted, he might try to get it through a separate peace with Germany?
Maybe. I know there was a fear in Moscow (not necessarily a realistic one, but a fear all the same) that Hitler might eventually succeed in his attempts to sway the United States and United Kingdom towards a ceasefire to form a "unified front" against the USSR (with 80 percent of Germany's Army there, there wasn't a lot in the way of reserves anyway). A fear of the reverse probably existed.
I know that the US and UK feared that the USSR would negotiate a separate peace with Japan.
Japan and the USSR maintained a neutrality agreement until the very end; they didn't go to war until the day before we dropped the bomb on Nagasaki.
Kind of late (didn't see the post), but I should have reworded it: I think they were afraid of the USSR and Japan formalizing relations (since they hadn't since the Russo-Japanese War?).
But yes, the USSR did honor their obligations (I think at Potsdam?), declaring war at the eleventh hour. Of course, that did help deal with the +1 million reserve troops in Manchuria.
Wait, you mean the authorities who were screaming at England about concentration and death camps, only to be ignored? The ones that delivered information from a pole who volunteered to go to Auschwitz?
Or how about the home authorities, the Home Army, which executed collaborators of any kind and welcomed Jews into the resistance?
Or are you talking about the Germans who invaded the country and claimed authority?
*Hint, only one of those was in the business of Jew killing, I'll let you guess which one.
Like I said, the Pollacks were BOTH victims and victimizers.
You don't get to ignore the wrongs you've done in light of the good you've also done.
When your choices are
Collaborate
Be executed
you don't really have a choice at all. As for the mass theft of jewish property, everyone was stealing everyone's shit post-WWII. You're ascribing racist intent where none likely existed.
Wait, you mean the authorities who were screaming at England about concentration and death camps, only to be ignored? The ones that delivered information from a pole who volunteered to go to Auschwitz?
Or how about the home authorities, the Home Army, which executed collaborators of any kind and welcomed Jews into the resistance?
Or are you talking about the Germans who invaded the country and claimed authority?
*Hint, only one of those was in the business of Jew killing, I'll let you guess which one.
Like I said, the Pollacks were BOTH victims and victimizers.
You don't get to ignore the wrongs you've done in light of the good you've also done.
When your choices are
Collaborate
Be executed
you don't really have a choice at all. As for the mass theft of jewish property, everyone was stealing everyone's shit post-WWII. You're ascribing racist intent where none likely existed.
it's not the taking of property that is as big of a concern as is the refusal to give it back just a few years later
it is actually STILL not safe to admit to being Jewish in some parts of poland, because they will assume that you are there in order to retrieve property, and attack you in order to deter more Jews from making such attempts.
One of the main reasons France and Uk didn't invade Germany when they attacked Poland was that France didn't think it had the power to handle Germanys defended western front, and Belgium wouldn't let French troops through their territory. Also the UK still didn't have much of a land army and couldn't project a force onto mainland Europe.
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It's true that there were large numbers of German troops on the western front that were below par (often captured Russian 'Ost' troops), but it's not true that 'all' the best Wermacht and SS divisions were busy being killed in Russia. Some were being funnelled back from Russia in time to attack the invading western allies - going from my memory of Anthony Beevor's D-Day here, but I think at least the Das Reich and Hitlerjugend SS Panzer divisions were fighting the allies on the western front, and they were considered among the most aggressive (and most likely to commit appalling atrocities) Germany had to offer. I'm not disputing that Russia paid the blood price for victory over Germany: that much is plain. But there are little myths about that larger truth.
And I think labelling as simple rhetoric the 'unconditional surrender' position of Churchill and FDR without any supporting evidence that either government was willing to negotiate is more than a little speculative.
EDIT: This thread makes me want to start a thread about WWI to just blather on about the battles and so forth.
EDIT EDIT: But yeah, the west was unwilling to fight Stalin for control of the eastern states his army trundled through on their way to Berlin, and thus could do very little to stop him from dropping the Iron Curtain. Churchill saw how things would pan out in 1944, in the oft-quoted notes he is supposed to have jotted down and shown Stalin that lay out in percentages how much influence the USSR and the west would have over countries like Greece, Romania, Hungary, etc.
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But was through and through, irrevocably betrayed but the Soviets
The biggest dick move ever, god fucking damn
If Germany had been a neighbor of the US in 1939, they would have very likely been able to invade us and take Washington.
At the beginning of WWII, the Western Allies didn't have any realistic options when it came to protecting Eastern Europe. At the end of WWII, barring going to war with the Soviet Union (which was probably winnable- the Red Army was at the end of its manpower and logistics rope when it rolled into Berlin. But that option was politically untenable) , the fact that the Red Army occupied Eastern Europe also left the West with few options.
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I think the above statement is unfair. Yet it shows the mentality of western leaders at the time. The absolute dream of British and French goverments was a nazi-soviet war. I don't deny that from a western standpoint it would have been an elegant solution. It would have meant Poland becoming a soviet satelite in 1939 instead of 1945. From our perspective it seems like a small difference, but it was unacceptable for Polish politicians at the time, and for good reason.
The way I see it, your saying that Munich agreement wasn't enough, and the West should have thrown two countries to the wolves instead of one.
The British thought that Poland was given too much in the Wersal treaty. That outlook dominated the mentality of the western societies of the time. Czechoslovakia didn't carry that stigma and it got preferential treatment as a result (Spa Treaty as an example). Strangly enough that made them more loyal to the West, and made Poles resentfull.
Well if we're going to talk about dick moves, there's always Dresden, and a hundred other things
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SORRY I CAN'T HEAR YOU
ARE THOSE SMOKE SIGNALS?
WE'LL COME IN WHEN YOU STOP SENDING THOSE
That phrase doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the context of Eastern Europe.
Well, would you consider Stalin or Hitler the better alternative? By 1939 the Polish situation was that they were sandwiched between two nations that were both on some level inherently hostile towards the country's existence, so there was never going to be a pretty solution either way. Of course, they helped set it up themselves by participating in the dismembering of Czechoslovakia.
Also I think the guys muttering about how people shouldn't feel obligated for stronger nations to come save their asses kinda miss the point - they had signed treaties. France and Britain (heck, the USSR, while we're at it) were legally obligated to come to their aid.
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There was a pretty solution. It was to fight Germany and get help from Britain and France. Didn't work though.
Poland would have never taken help from the Soviets. They would have signed a pact with the Germans. Not the preferred solution but it was considered the lesser evil at the time.
Also Zaolzie was a dick move without a doubt, but I don't think Poland shares any responsibility for Munich, and the fall of Czechoslovakia. That one is all Chamberlain and Daladier.
so the polish though "aight" and started killing bitches
but the soviets didn't come
and then the Nazi's counterattacked
Soviets didn't want to try and occupy a functioning warsaw
How could that solution have worked out when France and Britain could not actually engage the German forces attacking Poland? By that Germany had actually gotten their Western defensive line running, and there would have been a long, hard slog any way you looked at it.
Concernign Poland's refusal - um, yeah, that's kind of what we were discussing, wasn't it? Their refusal to allow the one army that could have done some good to enter their territory was what doomed them.
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By my understanding, although I'm aware hindsight is 20/20, Germany didn't have a very strong defence on the Western border in September 1939. Nearly all their motorised divisions were in Poland. Had France made a concerted effort at an offensive, they could have pushed pretty far into Germany.
Now maybe intelligence indicated stronger defences, I'm not sure, but my understanding is that the French Army were drowning in inertia and reluctant to go on the offensive anyway. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It's unfortunate--very unfortunate--but at the same time, I would say, not remotely surprising. By this time, the USSR had already been bled on the order of few million lives (well, tens of millions already), and the popular hatred of Poland (and likewise, the popular hatred in Poland, of various Soviet nationalities and particularly the 'Judeo-Marxist conspiracy') wasn't just going to vanish because they hated the Germans more.
Obviously, Poland, besieged through occupation, was in no position to have offered assistance to, say, Moscow or Stalingrad on the brink, but if they had been, I'd be shocked if they did. Kind of a non-issue, because they, beyond any shadow of a doubt, would not, and I can't say I blame them. Likewise, I do blame the Red Army General Staff for leading the resistance in Warsaw on, but to actually have intervened would have been against their interests in a big way.
Poland were definitely victims, but they were also victimizers, the latter role they still refuse to admit to.
Right - Germany was never equipped to face war on two fronts. The West missed their golden opportunity back in 1938 when they could basically parked an army in West Germany and there couldn't have been a thing Hitler could have done about it. They had a grand total of 12 divisions (of which 7 were reserve) for the Western front, for crying out loud.
Now, during Sep 1939, the forces at the Western border + fortifications were still pretty week. But they would have held out - long enough, anyway, for Hitler to smash Poland and to get his troops back to the Western theatre. Or maybe he'd have been spooked enough to call the invasion off (unlikely, though.) Either way, France still didn't move and Hitler happily seized the initiative.
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If the british pilots were knights in shining armour, the polish pilots were knights in shining armour with rocket boots, mini guns and 4 foot penises
The polish learnt tryign to fight the germans in vastly outdated technology, below even a german trainer, and to hit a german plane they had to trick the germans into getting close.
So the polish, after being given teh run around, finally got to England, and were finally given some big boy airplanes, they were nuts
The myth of Polish cavalry charging German tanks is just that - a myth. It's called a mobile antitank squad, with horses providing the mobility, and actual antitank weapons providing the firepower. of course once a few of the guys were killed the Germans showed it to the world and were all 'These guys are dumbasses.'
The world's response was, 'Wow, these guys are heroes.'
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If the allies would have moved Stalin wouldn't have done a damn thing. It would take a lot more time for the Germans to control all of Poland on their own.
Keitel wrote that their fortifications in the West in 1939 were a lot weaker then they made it out to be and the divisions positioned on the western front were considered inferior.
Yeah, I heard that story. Propaganda backfire extraordinaire.
Poland did a pretty good job with what they had. It's just unfortunate they were vastly outnumbered and underequipped, and then suckerpunched by the Soviet Union. And Poles who escaped to the west were quite important on a number of engagements, like Monte Cassino and the Falaise Pocket.
It's a shame that many of them were fighting for a free Poland which they didn't end up getting. I understand a large proportion didn't return to Poland.
Many of them were enjoying the local wildlife in their new places of residence :winky:
Stupidity aside, this sort of thing tends to be glorified to the extreme in all countries.
Side note: the commander of the Red Army force that stood by at the Warsaw Uprising was Konstantin Rokossovsky, Marshal of the USSR, promoted the June before the uprising by Stalin. Rokossovsky was arrested in the purges, but rehabilitated by Stalin personally (according to his memoirs), and probably one of Stalin's 'favorite' Marshals.
The fact that Rokossovsky was Polish (and that it was pretty common knowledge that he was born in Warsaw) might have led some of the lower echelons of the resistance to think they had a sympathetic commander in him. But the Warsaw intelligensia should have known he was close to Stalin, had fought with the Bolsheviks in the Revolution against both the Whites and the West (including Polish nationalists), and was much closer to his adopted homeland than his actual one.
He was later made Marshal of Poland and Defense Minister there, and was part of the suppression movement against independence, tracking down and arresting the Home Army, etc. There seemed to be a very heavy animosity both ways. Died in the USSR. "In Russia, they say I'm a Pole, in Poland they call me Russian," is a statement of his he's known for.
I read Philipp Von Boeselager's Valkyrie (his memoirs of the war and the plot to kill Hitler, basically) and horses are fucking awesome in modern land wars. They don't require fuel, they can traverse swamps at a reasonable speed and with good treatment from trained soldiers they're a lot less likely to break down than jeeps or motorcycles (both of Boeselager's horses survived the war, by the way).
Horses got kind of trumped by helicopters and hovercraft
Oh absolutely, but I think horses would still have their uses when you don't want to come flying over blasting Ride of the Valkyries from your boombox.
Because when i think about Poland and Betrayal, I think you all know where my mind goes...
Could you just come right out and say what you're thinking then, instead of waiting for someone else to do it for you?
Stalin refused permission to use Soviet airbases in Poland for the supply drops. Instead, the RAF was forced to fly missions halfway across the continent, and the Air Corps didn't participate, in fear of antagonizing the Soviets into a separate peace.
- John Stuart Mill
I already did earlier, before you get your panties in a bunch.
Poland may be victims, but they are also victimizers, and they refuse to recognize the latter fact.
The Poles sold out their "undesirables" to the Nazis, and took their possessions, then denied having done it after the war was over.
I do not begrudge them their struggles, but I am very uncomfortable with the idea that they begrudge us ours.
Yes, do go on. I'm waiting for the "All Poles didn't care about the Jews and were nothing but collaborators and Jew-haters."
Go on, say it out loud Evander.
Edit: Oh look, I was right.
where did I say "all poles"?
when I'm speaking about a collective, I'm speaking about the authorities.
He's backpedaling so fast you can just imagine the sparks under his heels
no, I'm just not interested in having words forced in my mouth.
go ahead, though, defend the mass theft of Jewish property and the refusal of polish authorities to do anything about it after the war
I'll wait.
Or how about the home authorities, the Home Army, which executed collaborators of any kind and welcomed Jews into the resistance?
Or are you talking about the Germans who invaded the country and claimed authority?
*Hint, only one of those was in the business of Jew killing, I'll let you guess which one.
I italicized those words I forced into your mouth.
Like I said, the Pollacks were BOTH victims and victimizers.
You don't get to ignore the wrongs you've done in light of the good you've also done.
edit: or are you denying that there was ever any significant number of polish individuals turning in their jewish neighbors and reappropriating their property as their own? If you ARE denying this, then can you tell me what happened to all of the formerly Jewish property after the war?
Kind of late (didn't see the post), but I should have reworded it: I think they were afraid of the USSR and Japan formalizing relations (since they hadn't since the Russo-Japanese War?).
But yes, the USSR did honor their obligations (I think at Potsdam?), declaring war at the eleventh hour. Of course, that did help deal with the +1 million reserve troops in Manchuria.
When your choices are
you don't really have a choice at all. As for the mass theft of jewish property, everyone was stealing everyone's shit post-WWII. You're ascribing racist intent where none likely existed.
it's not the taking of property that is as big of a concern as is the refusal to give it back just a few years later
it is actually STILL not safe to admit to being Jewish in some parts of poland, because they will assume that you are there in order to retrieve property, and attack you in order to deter more Jews from making such attempts.