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Harry Dresden: Wizard, White Knight and Complete Dork.

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    DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    As said, we really don't know, but the real simple obvious answer is the whole obligation thing the Fae have going. Toot has indentured himself to Harry for all eternity by now by the low means of pizza consumption.

    Yeah.

    Through service to Harry and through massive pizza consumption, Toot is slowly changing his nature. He's in deep enough now that he'd make suicidal charges to try to help Harry not because Harry had ordered it and bound him to do so, but because he can.

    If you were to tell Toot from Storm Front what current Toot is like, he'd laugh his ass off and not believe you.

    Kind of a fringe idea, but maybe the Fae are so keen on making deals because it empowers them. Toot has pretty much constantly been making deals with Harry, and his size and importance have grown. Correlation and not causation, but it makes sense to me as a reflection of the Fae motivations as a whole.

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Maybe there's some kind of anime power of friendship thing as well, where the fae change through the power of belief and Harry believes in Toot, etc.

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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Toot is the highest ranking soldier serving the Winter Knight, who takes his orders from the Queen/s.

    That puts him, indirectly, just steps away from highest office in Winter Court.
    sure, he is not a fae lord, but i would guess serving the winterknight (and leading dozens, maybe hundreds, of other minor fae) would probably give him a nice power boost.

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    It's a small aside, but one of the little things I've enjoyed over the years and Toot's growth has been the evolution in the description of his weapons and armour.

    Considering how much is nigh-copy/pasted between books when describing characters, items, places and events, that being a little different every so often was always fun.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Toot was a fae. A fairy. 5 inch nothing, with wings the color of old dollar bills.

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    DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    So I'm going to co-opt this thread as a general Jim Butcher thread for a second.

    I just finished listening to Codex Alera (which I binged immediately after listening to Dresden Files) and now I'm trying to figure out what to read next. I know Jim's working on a Steampunk-y thing (something Citadels, right?) and that it appears there's no firm release date for it, so I have to (painfully) look to other authors.

    I'm really down for something in the same vein as either Codex Alera or Dresden Files. Either one, really. I've read tons of High Fantasy (which is I guess what most people classify Codex Alera as) and not much Urban Fantasy, so I'm kind of stuck where I've read a lot of what people recommend for high fantasy and never even heard of what people recommend for urban fantasy.

    Any ideas?

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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Have you read the Mistborn trilogy by Brandon Sanderson? It's more in the line of Codex Alera, but I found it a fairly fresh take on a lot of the genre tropes.
    I also enjoyed the Crossroads series by Kate Elliot. I wouldn't say it is among the best of the new fantasy around, but I did enjoy the twists and direction the plot ended up taking.

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    DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    I will look at both of those, thanks!

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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    I've found http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/ a good source for finding new fantasy/sci-fi books to read. I don't always agree with the reviews, but they are thorough enough to be a useful gauge for what I might like and not like.

    Another series I've enjoyed recently is Chris Wooding's Tales of the Ketty Jay. Most people I've recommended the series to have found them loads of fun as well. I've enjoyed some of his other books (The Fade and the Braided Path trilogy), but those haven't been as universally popular.

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    LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    Here is my collection of "Not Quite Dresden". Which I think I gathered from a previous question like this, and have filtered.

    Iron Druid series - Modern Fantasy with an American Godish take on the pantheons. This is heavy in the light hearted snarky style of Dresden. Fun read, highly recommended.

    Felix Castor Series - Modern Paranormal Private Eye. Nice bit of a noir feel to it. With Dresden, at the end of every book Dresden is a little bit more powerful. With Felix, he's in a worse position and the bad guys are more powerful. You keep waiting for it to get better before Felix either dies in the bottom of a bottle, or with a slug in his back. It never gets better.

    Twenty Palaces - Modern Fantasy. Someone with the power level of Butters is going up against Outsiders. This is good, but it's pretty dark. The first book opens with a child burning to death, and that really does set the tone of the series.

    The Rook - Modern Science Fantasy. Warehouse 13 meets SCP Foundation. This is a great book that I highly recommend. It is a shame that this is a single book, and not a series.

    Bonus Recomendation:
    Valkwitch - Fantasy. I'm mentioning it because I usually don't like Fantasy, and I loved Valkwitch. And the author is self published, and the only way we'll get the sequel is if ppl by the book :D

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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    It's impressive that I've never even heard of any of those series or authors. Thanks for the list. I'll have to check them out.

    Another series you might like is the Night Watch series by a Russian author, Sergei Lukyanenko. They are more on the urban fantasy side of things from a very Russian point of view that I found refreshing. I think there was a movie called Night Watch somewhat related to the first novel, but I have no idea how it compares. I know I enjoyed the pentalogy and was sad when they ended.

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Gentlemen Bastards for urban in the past.

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    There's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell if you're up for some, like, Victorian urban fantasy.

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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    I know it isn't typically considered urban fantasy (because it's in a fantasy world), but the Vlad Taltos series is a great read.

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    ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    @Delmain you could also read the beginning of the Anita Blake series, by Laurell Hamilton; Butcher's talked about how he started off the Dresden series by stealing her ideas. :D You'll know when to stop reading them.

    Seconding @Dedwrekka‌'s recommendation of the Vlad Taltos series.

    There's also the Garret, P.I., series, by Glenn Cook.

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    FearbreedFearbreed Registered User regular
    I would also highly recommend the Night Watch series. Though I didn't realize a fifth book had been released (squeee). I have recently gotten into The Demon Cycle series by Peter V. Brett. Its a good high fantasy series that is ongoing so you'll have the usual waiting between books after book 3: The Daylight War.

    Ender Wiggins series by Orson Scott Card is supposed to be pretty good, I know the first one is great, though its a sci-fi.

    Wheel of Time - High Fantasy

    Sword of Truth - High Fantasy

    Richard and Kahlan series - High Fantasy just started by Terry Goodkind that continues the Sword of Truth universe.

    I'll have to do some more checking, gotta 5yo pestering me at the moment.

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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    The Ender series is good for the first book, but the rest fall off in quality. There's a few interesting ideas introduced in the later books, but the characters start becoming a bit too much of the author's darlings, or at least that is the way it seemed to me.

    Wheel of Time is okay, but may not be for everyone. I enjoyed most of them (there's a couple near the 3/4 mark that are pretty weak and one that I'd consider an embarrassing writing experiment that shouldn't have been published in that format.) They were fairly genre defining/iconic when they first came out, but some of the more innovative parts of them started to age as the series continued and other authors continued to innovate. Still, I'd say they are worth a look, especially if you are a fast reader.

    Sword of Truth is fairly divisive. A lot of people love it, but there's some underlying themes that some find very distasteful (what is shown, but not necessarily told). I know that some on this forum have some very strong opinions about it.

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    DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    It's impressive that I've never even heard of any of those series or authors. Thanks for the list. I'll have to check them out.

    Another series you might like is the Night Watch series by a Russian author, Sergei Lukyanenko. They are more on the urban fantasy side of things from a very Russian point of view that I found refreshing. I think there was a movie called Night Watch somewhat related to the first novel, but I have no idea how it compares. I know I enjoyed the pentalogy and was sad when they ended.

    Yeah, the Night Watch series is actually the only other Urban Fantast I've read. I love it. I read it twice and listened to the audiobooks
    once.

    E: Waaaaaaaaaaaaa?! There's a fifth book. Must acquire!

    Delmain on
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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    I've had similar issues as you for finding good urban fantasy. I didn't enjoy the Anita Blake stuff very much (though it could be I picked up one of the later books and might have enjoyed the earlier books). I tried a few Simon R. Green's Nightside books, but they felt a lot more superficial and formulaic and the characters not as well developed or interesting. It could be that they get better further along, but they didn't grab me strongly or improve enough between volumes to make me want to keep giving them a try to see if they keep improving (like the early Dresden books).

    One author and series I've been told is decent urban fantasy is Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London books. I haven't read them yet, but they come fairly highly reviewed and might be worth checking out at your local library.

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    KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
    Rivers of London series is good stuff when it comes to urban fantasy. Better written than the Dresden books, but not as much fun. The most recent book also felt like filler, aside from the ending.

    There are two series I always recommend for those who want something similar to Dresden, but neither is urban fantasy. They are the most similar I've come across as far as tone, protagonist, and overall feel though. The first is the already mentioned Vlad Taltos series, which is high fantasy. Great stuff, and worth the minor genre shift for something similar.

    The other series will sound odd: the Myron Bolitar series of mystery novels by Harlen Coben. No fantasy or paranormal elements - just straight modern world mysteries being solved by a sports agent and his best friend who is something like a less noble, and less superhuman, Batman. The tone, the humor, the general feel of everything is super similar to Dresden, but in a mundane world. The main character is very similar to Harry Dresden, and even grows as a character in similar ways as the series goes on. Relationships with other characters have a lot of similarities as well.

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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    A lot of urban fantasy is basically Twilight for grownups (or a new wave of Anne Rice knock-offs), which is a shame.

    I've read the first 2 Iron Druids books, and they were alright. Not enough for me to go after the 3rd, but still passable. The Gentlemen Bastards books are also good.

    For something completely different in form, I'd recommend Jeff VanderMeer's loose Ambergris trilogy, City of Saints and Madmen, Shriek: An Afterword, and Finch. They've got a lot of post-modern style that seems to turn some people off, but I love them for their concepts alone. City of Saints and Madmen is a collection of short stories and the like about Ambergris (the sort-of dieselpunk city that is the main setting for all of the books), its inhabitants, and its history, while Shriek: An Afterword gets even stranger, being ostensibly nothing more than the afterword and notes written by a sister about her brother's book on the history of Ambergris (the book is not part of Shriek, though there are bits of it in City of Saints and Madmen). Finch, the final book, is the most straightforward in style, being a noir detective story set in a post-apocalyptic Ambergris. It puts a neat spin on the characters and settings introduced in the other books, and kind of goes crazy nuts before it ends.

    The Anno Dracula books are also pretty fun. An alternate history setting in which pretty much every fictional and non-fictional character interacts with each other and Dracula (from the original novel) isn't killed, and goes on to marry the Queen of England, at which point vampires become commonplace. The first book is basically Jack the Ripper murdering vampire prostitutes and everyone from Dr. Jekyll to Mycroft Holmes shows up for at least a cameo.

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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Actually, I just realized that there's a couple of Sanderson novels that can fit in the Urban Fantasy genre. The Alloy of Law is a semi-western/semi-1920's New York setting set in a fantastical world (the same world as the Mistborn series but 200 years later, so I'd read the Mistborn novels first since there are some spoilers). The second is Sanderson's two Legion books. These could probably be classified as sci-fi and they are more of a novella than a full novel, but they might be somewhat in the same area you are looking for if you like the Butcher books.

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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    If you have an hour to kill there's a good discussion on Urban Fantasy with Patrick Rothfuss, Jim Butcher, Emma Bull (War of the Oaks), and Diana Rowland (White Trash Zombie).
    They each suggest some books:
    Diana recommends:

    Iron Druid series by Kevin Hearne
    Jane True series by Nicole Peeler
    The Black Sun's Daughter series by M.L.N. Hanover

    Emma Recommends:

    Topper; Rain in the Doorway by Thorne Smith

    Jim recommends:

    The Twenty Palaces series by Harry Connolly
    Alex Verus novels by Benedict Jacka

    Patrick recommends:

    Libriomancer by Jim C. Hines
    Something Wicked This Way Comes by Ray Bradbury
    A Fine and Private Place by Peter S. Beagle
    Neverwhere by Neil Gaiman
    Christopher Moore
    The Odyssey by Homer
    A Midsummer Night's Dream by Shakespeare

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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Sword of Truth starts of reasonably decent fantasy series, but veers of into a author tract about objectivism.
    Ender series is written by Orson Scott Card, which for me have pretty much made them a no no for me.

    I'd suggest The Laundry series by Charles Stross, which is a nice Cthulhu mythos meets government bureaucracy story.
    They are fairly dark, but not in a way that tries to constantly depress you, and quite funny at times, and the main characters are rather likeable.

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    RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    I was somewhat interested in the Kate Daniels series. Is that a good option or should I walk away now?

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    CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    I found the following critical blurb on Orson Scott Card and I find it matches up fairly well with my feelings on his writing:
    Orson Scott Card
    An interesting SF&F author whose popularity is based mainly on his extremely accomplished mid-1980s novel, Ender's Game. His Alvin Maker and Homecoming series have also proved popular. In recent years Card has mostly spent his time churning out additional Ender books of variable quality, and his most recent stand-alone, Empire, may rank as one of the worst novels published by a reputable publishing house this millennium.

    So, early stuff is fairly good and it trails off in quality before plummeting off a cliff.

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    RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    So about that Harry Dresden.

    I can't wait for next novel. He is going to have all his shit back. Shield Bracelet, Blasting Rod.

    Yeee! More Fuego!

    Also I hope the next book
    involves Harry fighting the Fomor. They seem interesting. And Flammable.

    Rchanen on
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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    I read about half of the first Kate Daniels book. Not to my tastes, but much of that was the extremely gimmicky nature of the magic (it comes and goes at "random," which basically means it's a deus ex machina built on magic, which is already a deus ex machina for most authors), and I got the sense that it would devolve into more typical romance stuff eventually.

    It did remind me that I read, I think, all of the Marla Mason books once when I'd run out of Dresden Files, and they were actually not bad at all.

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    You mean he better have it back. He could give all the money to Fitz or something.

    I'm looking forward to
    Bobette, myself.

    Xeddicus on
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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I like the Felix Castor books because they stay noir while Dresden starts verging on power fantasy. I'm not a fan of Richard Kadry's Sandman Slim novels, which are basically all power fantasy (he starts with invulnerability, unlimited teleportation, and a knife that can kill anyone).

    One other suggestion I have is Seanan McGuire's InCryptid series about cryptozoology. She was clearly inspired by Joss Whedon, but by the third book she starts developing her own voice. Her Newsflesh series (pseudonym Mira Grant) is her best work. She has a series of urban fairie books that I kinda hate, though.

    Kinda sidebar, I read John Sandford's Prey novels. At first I started reading them because they're set in Minneapolis, where I live, but the main character started as kinda insufferable. He gets much better, and, while they're non-fantasy, a number of the novels include fantasy gaming as a plot point (I did kinda cringe over the D&D-playing serial killer, however).



    But yeah, Dresden. Question: When did we first meet Dresden's subconscious? I'm trying to remember which book it was in, and whether Molly knew magic at that point. I continue to believe that there's something weird going on with Goatee Dresden, that it's something that someone did to him.

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    It was in Fool Moon I think. And no one directly involved in that could do it to him, except I guess maybe the demon he talked to. Plus all it's done is help him, so not much cause to worry even if it was an outside force.

    Xeddicus on
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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular

    To bring up a few not mentioned:

    Another Dresden-alternate series that's kind of fun is the Kitty series by Carrie Vaughn. I'm a little disappointed in a certain change of themes early in the series - it starts out with werewolves and vampires being sort of a metaphor for other 'othered' groups and how they just want to be part of society, and then Vaughn mostly drops that and runs a long arc about ancient vampires. But even there, it's still decent reading.

    I saw Chris Wooding mentioned up there, but the Chris Wooding books I'd recommend are the Braided Path trilogy. There's a strong Chinese influence to the story, and I think that in a lot of ways it's similar to Butcher's Codex Alera (ok, mostly in that a medieval fantasy world is facing an alien invasion).

    While it's a comic rather than a book, Fables is fantastic. Wonderful urban fantasy.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    It was in Fool Moon I think. And no one directly involved in that could do it to him, except I guess maybe the demon he talk to. Plus all it's done is help him, so not much cause to worry even if it was an outside force.

    Ah, man, that's really early on. Way before we got any players in the mix who were noted mind-alterers (and it would've been a big deal there, considering that those books were still heavily concentrating on the laws of magic).

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    DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    It was in Fool Moon I think. And no one directly involved in that could do it to him, except I guess maybe the demon he talk to. Plus all it's done is help him, so not much cause to worry even if it was an outside force.

    Ah, man, that's really early on. Way before we got any players in the mix who were noted mind-alterers (and it would've been a big deal there, considering that those books were still heavily concentrating on the laws of magic).

    The theory most put forward (I think) is that it's mind alteration and time manipulation. Someone sent stuff back in time to Harry's mind. I think there's a good chance it was Harry himself, but it could be anyone, really. Especially, say, Mab.

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    Vater5BVater5B Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    So I'm going to co-opt this thread as a general Jim Butcher thread for a second.

    I just finished listening to Codex Alera (which I binged immediately after listening to Dresden Files) and now I'm trying to figure out what to read next. I know Jim's working on a Steampunk-y thing (something Citadels, right?) and that it appears there's no firm release date for it, so I have to (painfully) look to other authors.

    I'm really down for something in the same vein as either Codex Alera or Dresden Files. Either one, really. I've read tons of High Fantasy (which is I guess what most people classify Codex Alera as) and not much Urban Fantasy, so I'm kind of stuck where I've read a lot of what people recommend for high fantasy and never even heard of what people recommend for urban fantasy.

    Any ideas?

    The Alex Verus books by Benedict Jacka have been the closest in tone and feel to the Dresden Files out of all e urban fantasy I have read. Also, in the first novel Verus directly references Harry, so that is pretty cool.

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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Or, I mean, hear me out....you don't have to bend space and time to give Harry an Id and it's all just Harry.

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    LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    edited July 2014
    Newsflesh is an amazing series. Or, rather. The first book is amazing, and the sequels are only "Really good". While I enjoyed the whole series, I would have been content for there only to have been the one book.

    Lots of good suggestions here.

    Lochiel on
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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Lochiel wrote: »
    Newsflesh is an amazing series. Or, rather. The first book is amazing, and the sequels are only "Really good". While I enjoyed the whole series, I would have been content for there only to have been the one book.

    The author is a friend of a friend who came up from writing Buffy fanfiction, so I try to support her by buying her books on principle... but I really can't stand her October Daye series. Dresden Files fairies just knock it out of the park so hard that those hippy-dippy flower magic fae are intolerable in comparison.

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    DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Or, I mean, hear me out....you don't have to bend space and time to give Harry an Id and it's all just Harry.

    I feel like Harry wouldn't have been so completely blind-sided by his appearance if this was something that happened to a lot of wizards.

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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Or, I mean, hear me out....you don't have to bend space and time to give Harry an Id and it's all just Harry.

    I feel like Harry wouldn't have been so completely blind-sided by his appearance if this was something that happened to a lot of wizards.

    It's probably not something most wizards were talking about. I mean, you control the elements and can do all kind of cool, badass things that could drastically lower property values for entire city blocks with a wave of your hand.
    People are going to get nervous if you start telling them about conversations you've had with yourself.

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