Mojo_JojoWe are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourseRegistered Userregular
edited March 2012
Oh dear. Just had a game where prior to starting three of the other team admitted to not having played before and not really understanding the game. It was awful. I don't think they knew about skills, or grappling or what they were trying to achieve.
At least it was quick, and I've never had a fifteen kill streak before.
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KorKnown to detonate from time to timeRegistered Userregular
I don't understand the hate for veteran. How is having to avoid the claw-grab any different than having a sniper on the enemy team.
You just need to be more aware of your surroundings.
I got pulled off the map once on Bullet Gorge on my 6th game ever, and ever since then, I always try to keep myself near a wall. Just so I know the pull wont work.
I do the same thing when a sharpshooter hits me at the beginning of the game. I try to best to make sure there is something between the two of us.
But they don't moan at the Gunner having a knockback AoE. Or Spark/Assault/Karl having a throwing grapple. Or the Tank having a charging knockback.
Why are all these things okay, but the Vet isn't?
Well none of those have the range that Vet does. There is VERY low risk at the start of bullet gorge for Vet to sit next to a turret and get a free kill. Sharpshooter or another Vet is about his only problem during early game. Later it depends on if he got those cheap early kills.
I don't have a problem with Vet, but I understand the dislike people have. With the roster being so small right now, he sticks out since no other Pro can get such easy kills on unaware players. Sure some Pros get fed and seem OP just as well, but Vet does it with almost no risk at all.
For good teams, Vet is pretty much a mandatory Pro you need on the team. With the small roster right now, that's fine by me. If the Pro roster gets to like 50 and nothing has that same easy initiation/no risk kills like him... then I dunno. I realize sharpshooters have some no risk kills too, but they don't 1 shot people like he can if he puts a person without an escape near a turret for team chain grapples.
If you get clawed off by vet, it's pretty much your own fault for not having situational awareness.
Almost every single time you die in this game it is your own fault, barring the very few times a team mate blocks you from moving or something. And yet people die all the time. There are 5 enemy members, 4 people on your own team and bots, there are multiple height levels, no mini-map, walls that block LoS and your camera hangs pretty close to your dude with a somewhat narrow FoV. You will lose track of people, you can't look in every direction at once, sometimes you will be doing something and consequently looking one way and not see something coming from another, etc.
So given that you WILL lose track of enemies at one point or another the difference is what losing track of them means. Losing track of someone when you are already out of position can easily result in you dying. Between damage and slows or stuns or grapples holding you in place you can often be a dead man. However, if you are in position losing track of enemies is far less big of a deal. They will get some damage in on you but you can usually escape to the safety of your team or turret and be just fine. The veterans ka-klaw however, puts you out of position (or flat out kills you) and from that position you have very good odds of dying. It's a unique ability amongst the current roster of pros.
I suspect why people moan about ka-klaw and not those other things your listed, Kor, is because ka-klaw is ranged and all those abilities you listed are either melee range or bit longer. To get killed by those by ringout you have to generally get out of position and then allow the enemy to get very close to you.
I'm interested to see how the new ka-klaw shakes out. My stance had been that you can't really speak on the balance of an inconsistent glitchy mechanic, and that's what the ka-klaw was. Now that it's more consistent we'll see. You'll see complaints about no matter what because it's a powerful and unique mechanic. Overall I'm kind of meh on the ability because it mostly just makes the Vet a chore to play against.
The cooldown change is probably the one thing I suspect was truly broken with him. In reality, there is one map to this point that will net you a decent chance at ring out kills, and that is Bullet Gorge while teams are on both bridges. Later on, pushes will re-arrange that and make it much more difficult to be effective.
However, it may as well be a kill if you grapple a pro that has no escapes (like Support or Combat Girl). Wow, he reminds me a lot of Pudge/Devourer. SUCH A SHOCKER, he picks off your support classes from afar.
Good changes to put out on his free week I suppose. But now I can't play CG as often, and I'm leery of playing Assassin because, I know she can be good, but I'm not sure I have what it takes to excel. I can play a decent commando when there is no jungler on the other team. That statement made me realize I'm bad at it, damn
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Mojo_JojoWe are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourseRegistered Userregular
Given that ringouts are the only instant death, I can see why people moan.
But they don't moan at the Gunner having a knockback AoE. Or Spark/Assault/Karl having a throwing grapple. Or the Tank having a charging knockback.
Why are all these things okay, but the Vet isn't?
None of those are ranged.
The Tank one kind of is. They don't have to be standing next to you to use it. Thus if you aren't looking at them, they could catch you off guard and punt you off the map.
Given that ringouts are the only instant death, I can see why people moan.
But they don't moan at the Gunner having a knockback AoE. Or Spark/Assault/Karl having a throwing grapple. Or the Tank having a charging knockback.
Why are all these things okay, but the Vet isn't?
None of those are ranged.
The Tank one kind of is. They don't have to be standing next to you to use it. Thus if you aren't looking at them, they could catch you off guard and punt you off the map.
The difference being, one requires situational awareness in the area around you. Which makes sense, if you are not paying attention to what is behind you or to your sides, you gun get fuk'd up.
The veteran requires situational awareness to an infinite distance, and against a decent team is always an instant kill.
The reason snipers are not a problem like this is, you get hit once, realize "oh shit I wasn't paying attention", then have a chance to get behind cover before they get off the next 2 shots and kill you. Also they HAVE to get headshots in order to even be a threat. The veteran just has to hit any part of your body.
When the veteran grabs you, you are immediatly grappled, then grappled again, then either a turret/his teammates shoots you to death, or one of his teammates then grapples and kills you.
I am curious to see if the changes have any major effect. I think it will make him less annoying in the early game, since his misses will actually punish him. Late game though, the cooldown is only like 4s away so won't have much effect.
The physics pull worries me, if the klaw fails, its usually because there was something in the way to stop the pull. I have never been on level ground and had one fail against me or for me. Could just be "lucky" I guess. Likewise worried that the physics pull is going to do bad things when they klaw you into a wall and end up getting shot off in a tangent.
To be fair though, I find a lot of the late game abilities kind of annoying; sparks flash, assassins smoke bomb, veterans klaw. All are just really annoying when they can use them every ~4 seconds.
I still think Veteran should lose his homing on his ranged shot (or make it so you have to be aiming at the person when it was fired for it to aim), move him to the commandos section, and lower his health accordingly.
the thing to bear in mind is that while the vet is the best grappler and thrower in the game by a wide margin, those skills are really all that he has
the eagle heads have zero precision; you literally cannot hit an enemy pro or turret that is standing behind enemy bots
the reload animation takes about as long as firing its entire clip
and you can do self-damage with them
He should not be amazing at close range combat, and then have a really annoying ranged weapon he doesn't even have to aim His ranged weapon should suck, if he is going to get essentially 4 grapples (counting klaw). If you are not standing next to something that can also take aggro from the eagle head it is basically a free hit. They are not really "deadly", but they are incredibally annoying since you are basically constantly taking damage for when another pro comes along, or he gets into melee range.
Not to mention the damn thing is also an aoe stun on bots with a short recharge timer.
I think the hitbox on the claw is a little large. It is rather unfair (IMO) to be able to see the claw coming and not be able to dodge it, because no matter which way you run the hitbox is so huge that it gets you. That's my big problem with it. I can be staring at the vet across a gap, shooting at him, and he can claw me and I can't do jack shit to dodge it (as most classes). The Klaw should only work on players who don't see it coming.
not being able to hit a specific target when firing into a crowd is a huge weakness
Except it's really not the good players are still going to be pegging you with it repeatedly, you just arc the shot so it ignores the bots coming at you or wait until they are past/dead and kaklaw in the meantime. If you shoot it within like 20' of your target it is going to go for them, and make 360 degree turns until it hits them. Which is stupid.
My problem with Vet is that he is a class unto himself. Every top tier composition will include a veteran.
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Ginger MijangoDon't you open thatTrap Door!Registered Userregular
edited March 2012
I think the Klaw is easy enough to avoid, people manage to do it without even paying attention ( and i keep throwing it in the wrong places). As long as you're moving you're harder to hit and there's a short range in which it would be unavoidable/hard to see coming. He also has a bit of a wind up animation for it so you can see it coming a little earlier.
The Eagles homing in aren't really that reliable, it's not like you're on an infinitely flat plane where they will find you no matter what, they also have a bit of a turning circle, I wouldn't object to the turning circle being increased or have a lifetime put on them. Like Juniors except shorter because that thing chases you forever.
not being able to hit a specific target when firing into a crowd is a huge weakness
But being able to get a free kill with it when it does hit is sort of obscene. Map with bridges? You're screwed. Map with turrets? You're screwed. You're immediately locked down and taking an obscene amount of damage, or you are instantly killed by a ringout. He's very different from all the other heroes and personally I think he makes the game a bit less fun because of the weird things you suddenly have to take into account when he's out that you don't against anyone else.
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Ginger MijangoDon't you open thatTrap Door!Registered Userregular
edited March 2012
TDOT is talking about his Eagle launcher weapon thing there, not the Klaw.
I'm not sure, but is it only CG and Support that don't have any abilities to escape the Klaw?
Edit: Sniper and Gunslinger as well.
TDOT is talking about his Eagle launcher weapon thing there, not the Klaw.
I'm not sure, but is it only CG and Support that don't have any abilities to escape the Klaw?
Edit: Sniper and Gunslinger as well.
Gunner is the worst off when it comes to reaction dodging the claw. Not only do you have 0 mobility options, but the fact that you're forced to move slowly while using the mini-gun, combined with his huge hitbox, makes him stupidly easy to hook.
TDOT is talking about his Eagle launcher weapon thing there, not the Klaw.
I'm not sure, but is it only CG and Support that don't have any abilities to escape the Klaw?
Edit: Sniper and Gunslinger as well.
Gunner is the worst off when it comes to reaction dodging the claw. Not only do you have 0 mobility options, but the fact that you're forced to move slowly while using the mini-gun, combined with his huge hitbox, makes him stupidly easy to hook.
Slam at least gives you some ability to escape. CG and Support have to resort to bunny hopping around and praying.
The good teams will charge forward when one of their own gets pulled in by a claw. The enemy team will focus on the person that got pulled and get wrecked by everyone else.
This doesn't work if you get pulled into a turret/pit or over a long distance... but you should be aware when the vet is in those positions. If you know he is there, it's very easy to dodge the claw.
TDOT is talking about his Eagle launcher weapon thing there, not the Klaw.
I'm not sure, but is it only CG and Support that don't have any abilities to escape the Klaw?
Edit: Sniper and Gunslinger as well.
Gunner is the worst off when it comes to reaction dodging the claw. Not only do you have 0 mobility options, but the fact that you're forced to move slowly while using the mini-gun, combined with his huge hitbox, makes him stupidly easy to hook.
Gunner has slam and hover, though. Not to mention a ton of health.
Unless he gets surrounded while his team is oblivious, he has ways out.
The real problem is still the infinite range on the claw. It needs a limit imo, it should be there to pull you from medium to close range. Not to pull you across the entire map.
I mainly play as CG. If a Vet klaws me on Bullet Gorge, I will die. Full stop. It's so cramped, 90% of the time you end up next to a turret, 1 or 2 other pros, and often both. Even if it's just the vet, I get disoriented after the grapples and more often than not run away directly into a lane of opposing bots.
On the more open Spunky or Loco, I'd say I get away from a solo vet 2/3 of the time using the kitty/fort/run like hell method. Maybe 1/4 of the time if there's another pro there.
As Support, I might be able to get away if it's an area I can airstrike as I run.
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Blue mapHello darkness, my old friend.Registered Userregular
TDOT is talking about his Eagle launcher weapon thing there, not the Klaw.
I'm not sure, but is it only CG and Support that don't have any abilities to escape the Klaw?
Edit: Sniper and Gunslinger as well.
Gunner is the worst off when it comes to reaction dodging the claw. Not only do you have 0 mobility options, but the fact that you're forced to move slowly while using the mini-gun, combined with his huge hitbox, makes him stupidly easy to hook.
Gunner has slam and hover, though. Not to mention a ton of health.
Unless he gets surrounded while his team is oblivious, he has ways out.
I meant just straight up dodging the claw. If we're talking about options after getting clawed then Gunner is far from the worst off.
The real problem is still the infinite range on the claw. It needs a limit imo, it should be there to pull you from medium to close range. Not to pull you across the entire map.
it's pretty long though, he can yank people off the anni pad from his own base in loco moco.
that's one of the major things people were bitching about Beth doing last week.
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Ginger MijangoDon't you open thatTrap Door!Registered Userregular
Beth could knock everyone off, interrupt activation of the annihilator and could continue to do so pretty rapidly if no one killed her. I don't think Klawing someone off is a suitable comparison.
Beth could knock everyone off, interrupt activation of the annihilator and could continue to do so pretty rapidly if no one killed her. I don't think Klawing someone off is a suitable comparison.
Just the range of it. I have no problem with him clawing someone off it at a medium range, I think it's a good use of the power.
Beth could knock everyone off, interrupt activation of the annihilator and could continue to do so pretty rapidly if no one killed her. I don't think Klawing someone off is a suitable comparison.
It's pretty much an instant kill because of the angle he can do it from (it'll ring you out 90% of the time and when it doesn't you end up beside a turret) and he's guaranteed a hit because he either gets the person buying the anni, or someone else blocking for them. It's moronic.
Also, when the fuck are they going to fix midair grapples? I am sick and tired of being grappled midair. I prefer to play tank and gunner, so I my jetpack is my only defence against commandos because I am slow as fuck, and 50% of the time it doesn't even work because of latency or poor coding, I'm not sure which.
wtf, buying uniform pieces individually is way more expensive than together.
like, 2 pieces is only 50 cent less than the whole set.
I was planning on buying a couple things, but oh well.
edit: they even let you buy (and presumably "win") pieces that don't change anything, like the assault fireball legs/head
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Also with the Megabeth disc buff, I think I'll buy her.
just sign up for the beta, it's free to play
you'll get some bonus skins for owning the first game, though
At least it was quick, and I've never had a fifteen kill streak before.
You just need to be more aware of your surroundings.
I got pulled off the map once on Bullet Gorge on my 6th game ever, and ever since then, I always try to keep myself near a wall. Just so I know the pull wont work.
I do the same thing when a sharpshooter hits me at the beginning of the game. I try to best to make sure there is something between the two of us.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
But they don't moan at the Gunner having a knockback AoE. Or Spark/Assault/Karl having a throwing grapple. Or the Tank having a charging knockback.
Why are all these things okay, but the Vet isn't?
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
Well none of those have the range that Vet does. There is VERY low risk at the start of bullet gorge for Vet to sit next to a turret and get a free kill. Sharpshooter or another Vet is about his only problem during early game. Later it depends on if he got those cheap early kills.
I don't have a problem with Vet, but I understand the dislike people have. With the roster being so small right now, he sticks out since no other Pro can get such easy kills on unaware players. Sure some Pros get fed and seem OP just as well, but Vet does it with almost no risk at all.
For good teams, Vet is pretty much a mandatory Pro you need on the team. With the small roster right now, that's fine by me. If the Pro roster gets to like 50 and nothing has that same easy initiation/no risk kills like him... then I dunno. I realize sharpshooters have some no risk kills too, but they don't 1 shot people like he can if he puts a person without an escape near a turret for team chain grapples.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Almost every single time you die in this game it is your own fault, barring the very few times a team mate blocks you from moving or something. And yet people die all the time. There are 5 enemy members, 4 people on your own team and bots, there are multiple height levels, no mini-map, walls that block LoS and your camera hangs pretty close to your dude with a somewhat narrow FoV. You will lose track of people, you can't look in every direction at once, sometimes you will be doing something and consequently looking one way and not see something coming from another, etc.
So given that you WILL lose track of enemies at one point or another the difference is what losing track of them means. Losing track of someone when you are already out of position can easily result in you dying. Between damage and slows or stuns or grapples holding you in place you can often be a dead man. However, if you are in position losing track of enemies is far less big of a deal. They will get some damage in on you but you can usually escape to the safety of your team or turret and be just fine. The veterans ka-klaw however, puts you out of position (or flat out kills you) and from that position you have very good odds of dying. It's a unique ability amongst the current roster of pros.
I suspect why people moan about ka-klaw and not those other things your listed, Kor, is because ka-klaw is ranged and all those abilities you listed are either melee range or bit longer. To get killed by those by ringout you have to generally get out of position and then allow the enemy to get very close to you.
I'm interested to see how the new ka-klaw shakes out. My stance had been that you can't really speak on the balance of an inconsistent glitchy mechanic, and that's what the ka-klaw was. Now that it's more consistent we'll see. You'll see complaints about no matter what because it's a powerful and unique mechanic. Overall I'm kind of meh on the ability because it mostly just makes the Vet a chore to play against.
However, it may as well be a kill if you grapple a pro that has no escapes (like Support or Combat Girl). Wow, he reminds me a lot of Pudge/Devourer. SUCH A SHOCKER, he picks off your support classes from afar.
Good changes to put out on his free week I suppose. But now I can't play CG as often, and I'm leery of playing Assassin because, I know she can be good, but I'm not sure I have what it takes to excel. I can play a decent commando when there is no jungler on the other team. That statement made me realize I'm bad at it, damn
None of those are ranged.
The Tank one kind of is. They don't have to be standing next to you to use it. Thus if you aren't looking at them, they could catch you off guard and punt you off the map.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
The difference being, one requires situational awareness in the area around you. Which makes sense, if you are not paying attention to what is behind you or to your sides, you gun get fuk'd up.
The veteran requires situational awareness to an infinite distance, and against a decent team is always an instant kill.
The reason snipers are not a problem like this is, you get hit once, realize "oh shit I wasn't paying attention", then have a chance to get behind cover before they get off the next 2 shots and kill you. Also they HAVE to get headshots in order to even be a threat. The veteran just has to hit any part of your body.
When the veteran grabs you, you are immediatly grappled, then grappled again, then either a turret/his teammates shoots you to death, or one of his teammates then grapples and kills you.
I am curious to see if the changes have any major effect. I think it will make him less annoying in the early game, since his misses will actually punish him. Late game though, the cooldown is only like 4s away so won't have much effect.
The physics pull worries me, if the klaw fails, its usually because there was something in the way to stop the pull. I have never been on level ground and had one fail against me or for me. Could just be "lucky" I guess. Likewise worried that the physics pull is going to do bad things when they klaw you into a wall and end up getting shot off in a tangent.
To be fair though, I find a lot of the late game abilities kind of annoying; sparks flash, assassins smoke bomb, veterans klaw. All are just really annoying when they can use them every ~4 seconds.
I still think Veteran should lose his homing on his ranged shot (or make it so you have to be aiming at the person when it was fired for it to aim), move him to the commandos section, and lower his health accordingly.
the eagle heads have zero precision; you literally cannot hit an enemy pro or turret that is standing behind enemy bots
the reload animation takes about as long as firing its entire clip
and you can do self-damage with them
He should not be amazing at close range combat, and then have a really annoying ranged weapon he doesn't even have to aim His ranged weapon should suck, if he is going to get essentially 4 grapples (counting klaw). If you are not standing next to something that can also take aggro from the eagle head it is basically a free hit. They are not really "deadly", but they are incredibally annoying since you are basically constantly taking damage for when another pro comes along, or he gets into melee range.
Not to mention the damn thing is also an aoe stun on bots with a short recharge timer.
it's that he can't
not being able to hit a specific target when firing into a crowd is a huge weakness
Except it's really not the good players are still going to be pegging you with it repeatedly, you just arc the shot so it ignores the bots coming at you or wait until they are past/dead and kaklaw in the meantime. If you shoot it within like 20' of your target it is going to go for them, and make 360 degree turns until it hits them. Which is stupid.
The Eagles homing in aren't really that reliable, it's not like you're on an infinitely flat plane where they will find you no matter what, they also have a bit of a turning circle, I wouldn't object to the turning circle being increased or have a lifetime put on them. Like Juniors except shorter because that thing chases you forever.
But being able to get a free kill with it when it does hit is sort of obscene. Map with bridges? You're screwed. Map with turrets? You're screwed. You're immediately locked down and taking an obscene amount of damage, or you are instantly killed by a ringout. He's very different from all the other heroes and personally I think he makes the game a bit less fun because of the weird things you suddenly have to take into account when he's out that you don't against anyone else.
I'm not sure, but is it only CG and Support that don't have any abilities to escape the Klaw?
Edit: Sniper and Gunslinger as well.
Slam at least gives you some ability to escape. CG and Support have to resort to bunny hopping around and praying.
This doesn't work if you get pulled into a turret/pit or over a long distance... but you should be aware when the vet is in those positions. If you know he is there, it's very easy to dodge the claw.
Gunner has slam and hover, though. Not to mention a ton of health.
Unless he gets surrounded while his team is oblivious, he has ways out.
On the more open Spunky or Loco, I'd say I get away from a solo vet 2/3 of the time using the kitty/fort/run like hell method. Maybe 1/4 of the time if there's another pro there.
As Support, I might be able to get away if it's an area I can airstrike as I run.
I meant just straight up dodging the claw. If we're talking about options after getting clawed then Gunner is far from the worst off.
it's not infinite, just long
that's one of the major things people were bitching about Beth doing last week.
Just the range of it. I have no problem with him clawing someone off it at a medium range, I think it's a good use of the power.
ANNIHILATOR!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's pretty much an instant kill because of the angle he can do it from (it'll ring you out 90% of the time and when it doesn't you end up beside a turret) and he's guaranteed a hit because he either gets the person buying the anni, or someone else blocking for them. It's moronic.
Also, when the fuck are they going to fix midair grapples? I am sick and tired of being grappled midair. I prefer to play tank and gunner, so I my jetpack is my only defence against commandos because I am slow as fuck, and 50% of the time it doesn't even work because of latency or poor coding, I'm not sure which.
they will not be fixed
like, 2 pieces is only 50 cent less than the whole set.
I was planning on buying a couple things, but oh well.
edit: they even let you buy (and presumably "win") pieces that don't change anything, like the assault fireball legs/head