Costa Concordia crash and related issues

Khavall

So, as many of us know, recently the Costa Concordia crashed off the coast of Italy. While this happened, the Captain of the ship abandoned ship on one of the earliest lifeboats available. He got into an argument with the coast guard, and upon agreeing to return to the vessel, did not actually return. In fact, there have been numerous claims by Guests that the crew did not know what was going on and could not adequately inform guests of what was happening. The ship crashed during dining hours, and the guests had not received their mandated safety briefing. This is also not the first time that a Captain of a cruise ship has abandoned ship in an emergency

There has been much news about this recently, including issues as to the performance of the crew, the safety of Cruising in general, and the activities of the Captain. I would like to offer a view as to what may also have happened, and open discussion on the issue.

To start, let's all have a look at [url="this article
"]http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE80G1D120120118?irpc=932[/url]. This article contains interviews from the crew.

Now, I work on Cruise ships. I cannot, currently, state which line(there are rules against social networking involving the company while employed. If you think you know, please do not mention it), however, it is a major line, and I would like to share some crew experiences to color this story.

1: On my line, we do the safety briefing before we set sail. Depending on how quickly we load luggage, we can sometimes set sail during or directly after the briefing. The briefing consists of getting all guests to their designated lifeboat station and then giving them a very brief instructional talk about how to abandon ship if called upon to do so, and how to affix their lifejacket. We do not load or instruct guests in loading their lifeboats. In my one year aboard ships, I have taken part in the loading of a lifeboat once, as an instructional tool. However, the loading of a lifeboat, with the number of cranes involved, should be relatively fast given competent lifeboat commanders. The main purpose of the drill, other than satisfying maritime law, is to acquaint the guests with a general idea of where to go in the event of an muster to emergency stations. Also, Lifeboats hold 150 people. That is incredibly cramped, even with people who are mobile and in shape. "Sardines" is the metaphor that comes to mind most easily. While we have overly ample lifeboats and rafts, an evacuation would require guests to be very, very cramped.

2: Crew have very, very specific emergency functions, and many times the specific functions tend to fall to specific nationalities. For instance, Entertainment staff will tend to be "Traffic Directors", whose job it is to direct guests to their cabins to get their lifejackets, and then to their lifeboats to disembark, in the case of an emergency, and Entertainment staff tend to be American, British, Australian, or Canadian. Lifeboat commanders, who are in charge of loading, will tend towards the Filipino/Indonesian nationalities. Crew are specifically trained in their own emergency function. For instance, as a traffic director, about once a month there will be a traffic director meeting, which involves a quiz on safety function, a lecture on safety function, or both.

3: Guests are, in general, self-entitled. Crew are given very specific instructions on how to deal with ornery guests. Such examples given are: Guests who are too intoxicated to respond to emergencies, Guests who are in the Casino and will not leave, Guests who feel that the money they have spent entitles them to certain things, etc. In the report from crew members on the Concordia, Guests were demanding the crew recover their luggage or bring them plates of food in the lifeboat. With 11 confirmed dead and 21 still missing, guests demanding food seems unbelievable. Believe me when I tell you that this is absolutely believable. Members of all emergency function are given a statistic on ships: 70% of guests will do nothing in an Emergency. When an alarm goes off and an announcement is made, 70% of people will not respond. As I mentioned, as well, Lifeboats require guests to be incredibly cramped. Many guests will not sit "on the floor", as is required on lifeboats(they use a 2-tiered system to fit maximum capacity). Many will not move over to be near an overly obese guests.

4: The quality of leadership shown on ships is very, very variable, depending on the ship. I have seen specific crew members barred or allowed from certain crew bars simply depending on the will of the Captain. During my last contract, Security personnel were antagonizing entertainment staff in front of guests, in public areas, over the use of guest elevators, purely because the Captain and the Hotel Manager had not discussed proper ship protocol and privileges with each other, while those clearly banned from using guest elevators in the fleetwide manual used them without problem. I have seen crew members banned or allowed to certain eating areas depending on the upper crew. I have gone from a ship whose tenor was that of fun and enjoyment, to one of hatred and negativity. These ships, other than the upper ranking officers, were the same class and design. Upper ranking officers will often have very, very specific personalities.

5: In my company, Captains schedules are 3 months onboard a ship, 3 months off. They are paid for their time off. Often there will be variances ship to ship depending on what Captain is onboard, as well as what Hotel Manager is onboard. With point 4, this means that the tenor of any specific ship can change drastically around 4 times in a year. On certain ships, a lenient captain can be replaced by a strict one, or vice versa, which changes the number of safety drills, the number of cabin inspections, the readiness of the crew to respond to emergencies, the motivation of the crew, and many other things. There are Captains which I would have no problem believing would abandon ship instantly and fuck the crew, and there are captains that would coordinate onboard the ship and be among the last to leave.

6: The expected language of the crew may be entirely different from the expected language of the guests. In my line, we have, on occasion, had guests who assume that all crew should be fluent in a specific, non-English, language. Our home office in in the USA. Our parent companies home office is in the USA. Our only required language is English. Our company has also recently attempted to promote outreach to non-Americans, and we have had guests who are only fluent in French, Spanish, Italian, and other European languages onboard. As a crew member, I am only required to be fluent in English. While I can speak French well enough, the best thing I could do on my last contract, which spent much time in the Mediterranean, was direct guests to my Girlfriend(A native french speaker), my Band Leader(A French-Canadian who lived in France for many years), or a Photographer(Very conversational in French). If confronted in Italian, there was a brief time where I had an Italian Piano player and Drummer. In spanish? An Argentinian Bass player. I have seen and heard of cruises, as an example, over 70% Dutch, who expected all crew members to be fluent in dutch. If there was an emergency on board, the announcements would be in English. The crew is required only to be able to speak English. Were there a crash and an emergency call, crew members would not be speaking Dutch.

7: The crew drills for emergency constantly. However, in my experience, there is a massive difference between drilling and an actual emergency. And it's not just in the lower crew, in fact, it's rarely in the lower crew. On my last ship, there was an interesting moment for me. I was in the Officers Bar, and there was a maintenance crew member buffing the deck, as there was a scenic sail-away for our current port, and the officers bar was near a scenic guest area(obviously, it was never used as both the officers bar and the scenic area). The fire alarm went off. The Filipino buffing the deck immediately, upon recognizing the alarm, yelled "FIRE ALARM" and stopped buffing to get to his emergency function. My emergency function for a Fire alarm was essentially to not do anything, only in the event of a General Emergency would I muster. Soon, the announcement came, the announcement was a junior officer, stuttering and obviously somewhat panicked. Later, there was another announcement by a member of the Entertainment staff, which was better. Eventually, it turned out it was just a hot plate and some smoke. However, it was obvious, the uppermost management had no idea, the uppermost management per department had no idea but was better at speaking, and then it was nothing. I also observed a moment where when the ship lost power at 1AM, the Captain, completely unnecessarily, woke up every single stateroom to announce it, only to have the public face of the ship then announce in only guest areas.


So there are my views. The ships drill for this. They prepare for this. In now two cases, the uppermost ranks have fled the ships, leaving it to the lower ranks who are drilled to compensate. We now have a modern, huge tragedy, with as many as 32 dead(11 confirmed dead, 21 still missing). Maritime law ensures that there is a safety briefing early, and many lines are switching, after this crash, to before the ship leaves.

So my questions: Is this a systemic problem? Should the crew be more drilled? Should there be more accountability in the upper management? Should there be more communication overall? How are the current safety standards? Among guests who have paid up to thousands of dollars for their vacation, how can we increase their understanding of safety? Are ships safe in general? What can we do to make them more safe? Who was at fault here? In the event of such a failure in other transportation/leisure activities, are there similar issues?

Feral

Khavall wrote:

2: Crew have very, very specific emergency functions, and many times the specific functions tend to fall to specific nationalities. For instance, Entertainment staff will tend to be "Traffic Directors", whose job it is to direct guests to their cabins to get their lifejackets, and then to their lifeboats to disembark, in the case of an emergency, and Entertainment staff tend to be American, British, Australian, or Canadian. Lifeboat commanders, who are in charge of loading, will tend towards the Filipino/Indonesian nationalities. Crew are specifically trained in their own emergency function. For instance, as a traffic director, about once a month there will be a traffic director meeting, which involves a quiz on safety function, a lecture on safety function, or both.

I'm assuming that because of your musical orientation (I remember you from prior threads on music), you have particularly strong insight into the 'traffic direction' functions you describe here, right?

Khavall wrote:

In my company, Captains schedules are 3 months onboard a ship, 3 months off. They are paid for their time off. Often there will be variances ship to ship depending on what Captain is onboard, as well as what Hotel Manager is onboard. With point 4, this means that the tenor of any specific ship can change drastically around 4 times in a year. On certain ships, a lenient captain can be replaced by a strict one, or vice versa, which changes the number of safety drills, the number of cabin inspections, the readiness of the crew to respond to emergencies, the motivation of the crew, and many other things. There are Captains which I would have no problem believing would abandon ship instantly and fuck the crew, and there are captains that would coordinate onboard the ship and be among the last to leave.

Where are the captains recruited from?

Do they typically have coast guard experience or some other uniformed experience?

Khavall wrote:

If there was an emergency on board, the announcements would be in English. The crew is required only to be able to speak English. Were there a crash and an emergency call, crew members would not be speaking Dutch.

How variable are the emergency instructions? For instance, would it be feasible (or have they already done so) to record common emergency instructions ("please proceed to the lifeboat area") in various languages?

Khavall wrote:

The crew drills for emergency constantly. However, in my experience, there is a massive difference between drilling and an actual emergency. And it's not just in the lower crew, in fact, it's rarely in the lower crew.

Is there any national or professional or regulatory oversight of drills? Is there any body, external to your company, who audits crew readiness for drills?

Khavall

Feral wrote:

Khavall wrote:

2: Crew have very, very specific emergency functions, and many times the specific functions tend to fall to specific nationalities. For instance, Entertainment staff will tend to be "Traffic Directors", whose job it is to direct guests to their cabins to get their lifejackets, and then to their lifeboats to disembark, in the case of an emergency, and Entertainment staff tend to be American, British, Australian, or Canadian. Lifeboat commanders, who are in charge of loading, will tend towards the Filipino/Indonesian nationalities. Crew are specifically trained in their own emergency function. For instance, as a traffic director, about once a month there will be a traffic director meeting, which involves a quiz on safety function, a lecture on safety function, or both.

I'm assuming that because of your musical orientation, you have particularly strong insight into the 'traffic direction' functions you describe here, right?

Yes, I have particular insight into the Traffic Direction function. For me, if I'm on deck 3(our lifeboat deck), I say "EVEN NUMBERS, OUT THIS DOOR TO YOUR LEFT, ODD, OUT THIS DOOR TO YOUR RIGHT", or, on other decks, "DOWN TO DECK THREE". My goal as TD is to ensure a: Guests get required equipment(Lifejacket, medication) from their cabins, if not in a restricted zone, b: Guests go to their lifeboat when properly equipped, and c: Guest go to their lifeboat if not properly equipped but their required equipment is in a restricted zone. If so, other emergency crew will take care of it.

Khavall wrote:

In my company, Captains schedules are 3 months onboard a ship, 3 months off. They are paid for their time off. Often there will be variances ship to ship depending on what Captain is onboard, as well as what Hotel Manager is onboard. With point 4, this means that the tenor of any specific ship can change drastically around 4 times in a year. On certain ships, a lenient captain can be replaced by a strict one, or vice versa, which changes the number of safety drills, the number of cabin inspections, the readiness of the crew to respond to emergencies, the motivation of the crew, and many other things. There are Captains which I would have no problem believing would abandon ship instantly and fuck the crew, and there are captains that would coordinate onboard the ship and be among the last to leave.

Where are the captains recruited from?

Do they typically have coast guard experience or some other uniformed experience?

They tend to have a degree in Maritimie something, and have risen through the ranks in a cruise ship or cargo ship. Very few have military experience

Khavall wrote:

If there was an emergency on board, the announcements would be in English. The crew is required only to be able to speak English. Were there a crash and an emergency call, crew members would not be speaking Dutch.

How variable are the emergency instructions? For instance, would it be feasible (or have they already done so) to record common emergency instructions ("please proceed to the lifeboat area") in various languages?

I have never heard a non-english announcement, working for a company whose home office is in the US.

Khavall wrote:

The crew drills for emergency constantly. However, in my experience, there is a massive difference between drilling and an actual emergency. And it's not just in the lower crew, in fact, it's rarely in the lower crew.

Is there any national or professional or regulatory oversight of drills? Is there any body, external to your company, who audits crew readiness for drills?

[/quote]
The US Coast guard audits all crew who are returning to the US after any amount of time away from the US, and for ships that are mostly in the US(Alsaska/Caribbean runs), they still inspect every once in a while. I have seen nothing from Europe, The Caribbean, Mexico, or others, only US. Also I have seen independent company Audits. During the Coast Guard audits, an officer/enlisted man/woman comes through the decks and asks questions concerning the ship. In company audits, a company auditer pretends to be a guest asking questions, and then reports.

Feral

Crisis behavior is an area of psychology I'm just barely starting to get into, and I wish I had more insight on this particular subject right now.

There's got to be a way to either better condition, or better select for, leadership qualities in emergencies among ship crew.

Darklyre

Feral wrote:

Crisis behavior is an area of psychology I'm just barely starting to get into, and I wish I had more insight on this particular subject right now.

There's got to be a way to either better condition, or better select for, leadership qualities in emergencies among ship crew.

The problem is that "leadership" is nebulous enough that you can't really put a number or a test score on it, and thus hiring or not hiring a crew member on the basis of "leadership" sounds like a discrimination suit just waiting to happen.

Plus, how would you test for how someone would act in an emergency without actually putting them in, well...an emergency situation? People may react one way during a stress test but completely differently when actual lives are on the line.

Feral

Darklyre wrote:

Feral wrote:

Crisis behavior is an area of psychology I'm just barely starting to get into, and I wish I had more insight on this particular subject right now.

There's got to be a way to either better condition, or better select for, leadership qualities in emergencies among ship crew.

The problem is that "leadership" is nebulous enough that you can't really put a number or a test score on it, and thus hiring or not hiring a crew member on the basis of "leadership" sounds like a discrimination suit just waiting to happen.

Plus, how would you test for how someone would act in an emergency without actually putting them in, well...an emergency situation? People may react one way during a stress test but completely differently when actual lives are on the line.

I don't know yet! Check back after I read The Unthinkable.

Khavall

Darklyre wrote:

Feral wrote:

Crisis behavior is an area of psychology I'm just barely starting to get into, and I wish I had more insight on this particular subject right now.

There's got to be a way to either better condition, or better select for, leadership qualities in emergencies among ship crew.

The problem is that "leadership" is nebulous enough that you can't really put a number or a test score on it, and thus hiring or not hiring a crew member on the basis of "leadership" sounds like a discrimination suit just waiting to happen.

Plus, how would you test for how someone would act in an emergency without actually putting them in, well...an emergency situation? People may react one way during a stress test but completely differently when actual lives are on the line.

Not only that, but in may positions, ships are desperate for jobs sometimes. I worked with a guy who turned out to be amazingly awesome, but he was hired just based on the fact that he submitted an application. When he got to ships, he was almost instantly fired. He proved that he was amazing and is a guy I would work with all the time if I could.

Emergency function was never taken into consideration. They needed him, so they took him. If they need someone, should they check for nebulous "Leadership" or should they just take him? I think this dude would, in an emergency, be super good as his emergency function: Get to his assigned stairwell and repeat: "ALL LIFEBOATS PROCEED TO DECK 3"

ED!

I'm not one for jumping to conclusions, but everything about the Captains behavior is just so damn rotten.

Echo

ED! wrote:

I'm not one for jumping to conclusions, but everything about the Captains behavior is just so damn rotten.

Apparently his story is that he tripped and accidentally fell into a lifeboat.

lonelyahava

So with this wreck, the ship is definitely on it's side.

Were the lifeboats on that side of the ship able to get away/be used?

They had to be, right? Otherwise there would be even more injuries and deaths, right?

or am I missing something here?

SmokeStacks

Khavall wrote:

Maritime law ensures that there is a safety briefing early, and many lines are switching, after this crash, to before the ship leaves.

When a rule or procedure is put in place after an accident it is "written in blood", and it is basically the only way safety protocols are ever changed in this country. It is disgusting. Passengers on any ship need to have at least some awareness of safety and emergency procedures before they ever step foot off the shore. You can't even get on a cattle boat to go fishing without the Captain or First Mate giving you a quick five minute rundown on what to do in an emergency.

That said, I have worked event security and I have seen firsthand how a large group of people can act in an emergency situation. Even if everyone was drilled on what to do in an emergency before they were on the ship there would still be fatalities in an event like this because a crowd of people becomes a crowd of useless, panicky animals at the flip of a switch.

So, more emergency preparedness among people who are taking a cruise would be great, but in the end you can't fight human nature. We've got at least eleven dead people and a Captain who was one of the first people to bail from the ship to prove it.

Caveman Paws

The news showed a map with a line showing the ships course. Then it showed the course the ship was actually on. Not even close.

Apparently one of the crew had family on the island and so the ship was brought in close so he could wave to them. This had been done in the past as well.

After the crash the Captain talks to Italian media and says that he and his officers were the last to leave the ship, which of course has been proven false (coast guard conversation recording).

He panicked and then lied to cover his butt. At least that is what I've gathered from a couple days of tv news.

dlinfiniti

Caveman Paws wrote:

The news showed a map with a line showing the ships course. Then it showed the course the ship was actually on. Not even close.

Apparently one of the crew had family on the island and so the ship was brought in close so he could wave to them. This had been done in the past as well.

After the crash the Captain talks to Italian media and says that he and his officers were the last to leave the ship, which of course has been proven false (coast guard conversation recording).

He panicked and then lied to cover his butt. At least that is what I've gathered from a couple days of tv news.

it seems like the italians are wanting to make an example of the dude and he'll likely see jail time at least for the act of abandoning first (which is apparantly a crime in italy) aside from all the other possible crimes he could and probably be charged with like negligence and stuff like that

RMS Oceanic

lonelyahava wrote:

So with this wreck, the ship is definitely on it's side.

Were the lifeboats on that side of the ship able to get away/be used?

They had to be, right? Otherwise there would be even more injuries and deaths, right?

or am I missing something here?

I believe after sinkings like the Lusitania and the Andrea Doria, both involving heavy lists, the regulations make it so you have enough lifeboats for twice the maximum capacity for precisely this reason. It also helps that the ship is a stones throw from the coast, so it's comparitively easy for local ships to render assisstance.

Caveman Paws

dlinfiniti wrote:

Caveman Paws wrote:

The news showed a map with a line showing the ships course. Then it showed the course the ship was actually on. Not even close.

Apparently one of the crew had family on the island and so the ship was brought in close so he could wave to them. This had been done in the past as well.

After the crash the Captain talks to Italian media and says that he and his officers were the last to leave the ship, which of course has been proven false (coast guard conversation recording).

He panicked and then lied to cover his butt. At least that is what I've gathered from a couple days of tv news.

it seems like the italians are wanting to make an example of the dude and he'll likely see jail time at least for the act of abandoning first (which is apparantly a crime in italy) aside from all the other possible crimes he could and probably be charged with like negligence and stuff like that

I think I heard talk of manslaughter charges, but don't quote me on that.

Jacobkosh

Feral wrote:

Crisis behavior is an area of psychology I'm just barely starting to get into, and I wish I had more insight on this particular subject right now.

There's got to be a way to either better condition, or better select for, leadership qualities in emergencies among ship crew.

I think it's definitely possible both to train and evaluate leadership qualities both in and out of crises - we have organizations, like the military, that rely hugely on being able to do this to some at least some degree (even if it's not in a rigorous way and might be more art than science) - but I bet it relies on factors that you might not be able to control for in this business. I think it would be rare for a Navy captain to behave like the man here did, for instance, but then a Navy captain has been continually tested and evaluated in different positions and circumstances by the same organization for most of his adult life, rather than being hired based on a degree and some possibly-applicable experience like he was applying for some random office job.

AngelHedgie

Jacobkosh wrote:

Feral wrote:

Crisis behavior is an area of psychology I'm just barely starting to get into, and I wish I had more insight on this particular subject right now.

There's got to be a way to either better condition, or better select for, leadership qualities in emergencies among ship crew.

I think it's definitely possible both to train and evaluate leadership qualities both in and out of crises - we have organizations, like the military, that rely hugely on being able to do this to some at least some degree (even if it's not in a rigorous way and might be more art than science) - but I bet it relies on factors that you might not be able to control for in this business. I think it would be rare for a Navy captain to behave like the man here did, for instance, but then a Navy captain has been continually tested and evaluated in different positions and circumstances by the same organization for most of his adult life, rather than being hired based on a degree and some possibly-applicable experience like he was applying for some random office job.

The big thing is that the Navy has a weedout point with its officers - only the ones who have the chops for command make it to Lt. Commander (O-4), which is the rank at which executive officers are selected. In addition, you don't get to the big ships directly - for example, carrrier captains are selected from the captains of carrier supply ships.

Tofystedeth

My wife and I just got back from a cruise Saturday, so it was really weird to hear about that.

Bogart

The conversation between the captain and the coast guard was incredible.

"Get back on the ship and co-ordinate the rescue!"
"You do know it's dark, right?"

Anarchy Rules!

In this situation it seemed that the lifeboats were pretty useless in this case as the ship had already started listing badly before evacuation had begun. People complaining a bit that lifeboat technology not really advanced since the turn of the 20th century.

Tomanta

All I know is that the captain is going to need a good lawyer. I'd suggest Cherith Cutestory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdeSh3vLvYI

Organichu

has everyone seen this incredible photograph?

Magic Pink

Echo wrote:

ED! wrote:

I'm not one for jumping to conclusions, but everything about the Captains behavior is just so damn rotten.

Apparently his story is that he tripped and accidentally fell into a lifeboat.

ha isn't that the same excuse guys use when they get caught in homosexual sexytimes?

"I just tripped and the dang thing went right up there!"

I believe his lawyers are now using the phrase "he was catapulted into the water".

enc0re

Coast guard is best guard. Here's an extended transcript of the conversation with Captain Schettino

NY Daily News wrote:

De Falco: "This is De Falco from Livorno. Am I speaking with the captain?"

Schettino: "Yes. Good evening, Cmdr. De Falco."

De Falco: "Please tell me your name."

Schettino: "I'm Capt. Schettino, commander."

De Falco: "Schettino? Listen, Schettino. There are people trapped on board. Now, you go with your lifeboat under the prow on the starboard side. There's a rope ladder. You climb that ladder and go aboard. Go aboard and tell me how many people there are. Is that clear? I'm recording this conversation, Capt. Schettino."

Schettino: "So, I'll tell you something..."

De Falco: "Speak up!"

Schettino: "So, at this moment, the boat is tipping..."

De Falco: "I got it. Listen, there are people coming down the rope ladder from the prow. You go up that ladder, get on that ship and tell me how many people are still on board and what they have on board. Is that clear? You need to tell me if there are children, women or people in need of assistance. And tell me the exact number of each of these categories. Is that clear? Schettino, you may have saved yourself from the sea, but I'm going to make you pay, I'm going to make your life miserable. Get the (bleep) on board!

Schettino: "I'm here with the rescue boats, I'm here, I haven't gone anywhere, I'm here.

De Falco: "What are you doing there, captain?"

Schettino: "I am here to coordinate the rescue..."

De Falco: "What are you coordinating there? Go aboard! Coordinate the rescue from aboard the ship. Are you refusing?"

Schettino: "No, no, no, I am not refusing."

De Falco: "YOU GO ABOARD: That's an order. Don't make any more excuses. You declared abandon ship, now I'm in charge. YOU GO ABOARD. Is that clear?"

Schettino: "Commander, I'm going aboard."

De Falco: "Go, and call me when you are aboard. My air rescue is on the prow. Go. There are already bodies, Schettino."

Schettino: "How many bodies are there?"

De Falco: "I don't know! One for sure! I've heard of one. You're the one who has to tell me how many there are. Christ!"

Schettino: "You realize it's dark and here we can't see anything..."

De Falco: "And what? You want go home, Schettino? It's dark and you want to go home? Get on that prow of the boat using the rope ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what they need. Now!"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/costa-concordia-disaster-transcript-exchange-coast-guard-chief-commandant-ship-captain-article-1.1007794

electricitylikesme

Anarchy Rules! wrote:

In this situation it seemed that the lifeboats were pretty useless in this case as the ship had already started listing badly before evacuation had begun. People complaining a bit that lifeboat technology not really advanced since the turn of the 20th century.

Even with the ship listing badly, no one should have died from this. It took hours to get to the point you see, and they could've easily gotten the vulnerable off the ship before then.

SanderJK

This was such a case of incredible stupidity. To take your 220m 16 deck $400m ship nearly 2 miles off course closer to an island because you want to honk your horn at relatives of a friend/crewmember (This detail changes a bit depending on who you talk to) is just insane.

My question, how would a bridge crew normally react to this decision? Should the first officer speak up? Would that work? Could he have gone over the Captains head?

Alfred J. Kwak

I'm still wondering how/why people died. I read that the Korean couple that they rescued from the wreck decided to go back into their cabin because of the confusion and chaos outside (if your house is on fire, do you walk back into your room?) and one 71-old guy drowned after he gave his wive his life-jacket and then they both jumped into the water (it's only a couple hundred meters to the coast and the sea was calm but I guess it was dark and the water was rather cold). At least a few other people decided to do the same and some probably didn't manage. But as for the people who remained inside the ship - no idea.

valhalla130

enc0re wrote:

Coast guard is best guard. Here's an extended transcript of the conversation with Captain Schettino

NY Daily News wrote:

De Falco: "This is De Falco from Livorno. Am I speaking with the captain?"

Schettino: "Yes. Good evening, Cmdr. De Falco."

De Falco: "Please tell me your name."

Schettino: "I'm Capt. Schettino, commander."

De Falco: "Schettino? Listen, Schettino. There are people trapped on board. Now, you go with your lifeboat under the prow on the starboard side. There's a rope ladder. You climb that ladder and go aboard. Go aboard and tell me how many people there are. Is that clear? I'm recording this conversation, Capt. Schettino."

Schettino: "So, I'll tell you something..."

De Falco: "Speak up!"

Schettino: "So, at this moment, the boat is tipping..."

De Falco: "I got it. Listen, there are people coming down the rope ladder from the prow. You go up that ladder, get on that ship and tell me how many people are still on board and what they have on board. Is that clear? You need to tell me if there are children, women or people in need of assistance. And tell me the exact number of each of these categories. Is that clear? Schettino, you may have saved yourself from the sea, but I'm going to make you pay, I'm going to make your life miserable. Get the (bleep) on board!

Schettino: "I'm here with the rescue boats, I'm here, I haven't gone anywhere, I'm here.

De Falco: "What are you doing there, captain?"

Schettino: "I am here to coordinate the rescue..."

De Falco: "What are you coordinating there? Go aboard! Coordinate the rescue from aboard the ship. Are you refusing?"

Schettino: "No, no, no, I am not refusing."

De Falco: "YOU GO ABOARD: That's an order. Don't make any more excuses. You declared abandon ship, now I'm in charge. YOU GO ABOARD. Is that clear?"

Schettino: "Commander, I'm going aboard."

De Falco: "Go, and call me when you are aboard. My air rescue is on the prow. Go. There are already bodies, Schettino."

Schettino: "How many bodies are there?"

De Falco: "I don't know! One for sure! I've heard of one. You're the one who has to tell me how many there are. Christ!"

Schettino: "You realize it's dark and here we can't see anything..."

De Falco: "And what? You want go home, Schettino? It's dark and you want to go home? Get on that prow of the boat using the rope ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what they need. Now!"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/costa-concordia-disaster-transcript-exchange-coast-guard-chief-commandant-ship-captain-article-1.1007794

I'm sure it has a lot to do with shock and being in a stressful situation, but it always amazes me how these types of recordings seem to be of two different conversations going on at the same time. "Get on board the ship!" "I'm here."

Modern Man

Echo wrote:

ED! wrote:

I'm not one for jumping to conclusions, but everything about the Captains behavior is just so damn rotten.

Apparently his story is that he tripped and accidentally fell into a lifeboat.

That's sort of the equivalent of a philanderer claiming he tripped and accidentally fell into a vagina.

spool32

"Perhaps you have saved yourself from the sea..." is the best line from that whole transcript.

RMS Oceanic

It certainly looks like the captain will be Ismay'd pretty quickly, although the evidence so far gathered implies he deserves it this time.

spool32

I keep thinking about Patrick O'Brian while hearing about this. What would Jack Aubrey have said about this captain?

BubbaT

Caveman Paws wrote:

The news showed a map with a line showing the ships course. Then it showed the course the ship was actually on. Not even close.

Apparently one of the crew had family on the island and so the ship was brought in close so he could wave to them. This had been done in the past as well.

After the crash the Captain talks to Italian media and says that he and his officers were the last to leave the ship, which of course has been proven false (coast guard conversation recording).

He panicked and then lied to cover his butt. At least that is what I've gathered from a couple days of tv news.

Echo wrote:

ED! wrote:

I'm not one for jumping to conclusions, but everything about the Captains behavior is just so damn rotten.

Apparently his story is that he tripped and accidentally fell into a lifeboat.

Bogart wrote:

The conversation between the captain and the coast guard was incredible.

"Get back on the ship and co-ordinate the rescue!"
"You do know it's dark, right?"

So this idiot makes a dangerous maneuver for dumbass reasons, flees from the disaster he caused, and then comes up with a 4 year old's excuse for abdicating his responsibilities.

My god, he's

mrt144

BubbaT wrote:

Caveman Paws wrote:

The news showed a map with a line showing the ships course. Then it showed the course the ship was actually on. Not even close.

Apparently one of the crew had family on the island and so the ship was brought in close so he could wave to them. This had been done in the past as well.

After the crash the Captain talks to Italian media and says that he and his officers were the last to leave the ship, which of course has been proven false (coast guard conversation recording).

He panicked and then lied to cover his butt. At least that is what I've gathered from a couple days of tv news.

Echo wrote:

ED! wrote:

I'm not one for jumping to conclusions, but everything about the Captains behavior is just so damn rotten.

Apparently his story is that he tripped and accidentally fell into a lifeboat.

Bogart wrote:

The conversation between the captain and the coast guard was incredible.

"Get back on the ship and co-ordinate the rescue!"
"You do know it's dark, right?"

So this idiot makes a dangerous maneuver for dumbass reasons, flees from the disaster he caused, and then comes up with a 4 year old's excuse for abdicating his responsibilities.

My god, he's

He's the Custer of the Sea.

mrt144

My wife, whom worked in the cruise industry for years kept yelling at the TV "DIDN'T THEY GO OVER MUSTER STATIONS? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM!"

SammyF

Jacobkosh wrote:

Feral wrote:

Crisis behavior is an area of psychology I'm just barely starting to get into, and I wish I had more insight on this particular subject right now.

There's got to be a way to either better condition, or better select for, leadership qualities in emergencies among ship crew.

I think it's definitely possible both to train and evaluate leadership qualities both in and out of crises - we have organizations, like the military, that rely hugely on being able to do this to some at least some degree (even if it's not in a rigorous way and might be more art than science) - but I bet it relies on factors that you might not be able to control for in this business. I think it would be rare for a Navy captain to behave like the man here did, for instance, but then a Navy captain has been continually tested and evaluated in different positions and circumstances by the same organization for most of his adult life, rather than being hired based on a degree and some possibly-applicable experience like he was applying for some random office job.

Yeah, the Navy obviously drills like hell, but it's important to differentiate them from a commercial or mercantile carrier; the Navy operates its vessels with much larger crews precisely for emergency situations. Just like in the private sector, most of sailing or fighting a warship nowadays has been streamlined with computers and electronic detection and navigation aids to the point where you can operate the major systems with a few dozen people. The other two hundred souls aboard a destroyer are there primarily for system maintenance and damage control so that when something unthinkable does happen, the CO can respond by hurling an overwhelming amount of trained and ready manpower at the problem.

I think a better analogy would be the airline industry. The FAA mandates a pretty significant amount of training for the relatively small flight crew of a commercial carrier in order to ensure that every passenger who survives impact has the greatest possible chance of getting away from the airframe with his life. I know the Coast Guard does the same thing with U.S. flagged M/Vs, and I'd hope they do the same thing with C/Vs in the cruise liner industry.

Forar

Feral wrote:

I don't know yet! Check back after I read The Unthinkable.

Whelp, looks like I just added something to my Amazon wishlist/reading backlog.

Anyway, I've always wanted to go on a cruise, and I can't say that this (or any given disaster) sways me from that desire, but it's certainly making me aware of things I need to know. Of course, one would hope that the crew would do that sort of thing, but as the kind of guy who loves the Worst Case Scenario series of books, I prefer as much advance information/warning as possible. As such, I appreciate those in the thread who have experience on cruise ships giving insight into the matter.

A tragedy, all the moreso in that it appears (?) many of the lives lost could've been prevented/saved.

Midshipman

"AngelHedgie wrote:

for example, carrrier captains are selected from the captains of carrier supply ships.

What? The Navy supply ships are captained by civilians.

SammyF

Midshipman wrote:

"AngelHedgie wrote:

for example, carrrier captains are selected from the captains of carrier supply ships.

What? The Navy supply ships are captained by civilians.

Yeah that's not at all true. The unifying rule for COs of CVNs is that you must have been a former naval aviator.

Midshipman

Anarchy Rules! wrote:

In this situation it seemed that the lifeboats were pretty useless in this case as the ship had already started listing badly before evacuation had begun. People complaining a bit that lifeboat technology not really advanced since the turn of the 20th century.

That's quite a bit of hyperbole. Modern lifeboat davits allow launching by a single person, something that took usually a minimum of about 4 people at the turn of the 20th century. Additionally, most ships with large numbers of passengers or crew primarily use life rafts which don't even need a single person to launch. They are all designed to float free and automatically inflate if the ship sinks, and can be manually deployed by throwing them over the side and pulling a cord. They are also optionally designed to be inflated in the air along side the ship while being held from a davit or crane to allow boarding directly from the ship.

The problem in the Costa Concordia case had nothing to do with insufficient lifeboat technology. This was all a problem of leadership and lack of pretraining and coordination of the evacuation. Running aground or striking a submerged object is a very serious incident and the captain should have immediately ordered everyone to lifeboat stations before assessing the severity of the damage. Not having gotten around to running an abandon ship drill prior should have been a major reinforcer of making the decision to immediately prepare for the worst case after the collision.

AngelHedgie

SammyF wrote:

Midshipman wrote:

"AngelHedgie wrote:

for example, carrrier captains are selected from the captains of carrier supply ships.

What? The Navy supply ships are captained by civilians.

Yeah that's not at all true. The unifying rule for COs of CVNs is that you must have been a former naval aviator.

Yes, but they don't go straight from command of an air unit to skippering a carrier. Fleet oilers are used to test prospective carrier captains.