I actually feel pretty unprepared for defending against proxy 2-gate because somehow it died out of the metagame before I had any idea how to handle it well.
I've been told some pretty good ideas but I have yet to have a chance to try them.
What is the proper response? Holding it off in-base with micro only works when they are shit.
I kind of always just throw up a forge, a cannon and just chillax. Kill his gates, and goes for a 4 gate robo with prism. Never fails to kill them.
My usual response is panic followed up with a couple of spines, an extra queen, and generally sacking the natural (or cancelling it if I catch it early enough). Then it's a matter of queen / ling lure micro while the spines do the work.
Roaches don't tend to come soon enough, but they can also save the day.
It's a bit tough though.
Don't know, it's a super rare occurrence, as has been said.
ed: Also helps a lot to send a handful of lings to their main to harass their probe line / macro.
Some of the Starcraft Master challenges are stupid.
The roach ramp split one? First of all, if you have one sentry and four zealots in a PvZ in the early game, you're doing it fucking wrong, okay? Secondly, even the bronziest of noobs will micro his roaches well enough to beat that army. So whats the point of it?
I dunno. I prefer Darglein's Micro trainer. Its a bit more useful in real world applications.
I agree, most of them are stupid, but I've started playing the 3 marines v 2 zealots, the ghost sniping banelings, and the blink stalker one 2-3 times each to warm up before my first match of the day.
What I find kinda funny about the Roach one, is you really only need to block a single roach and focus fire to beat it. The ones that are good, if a bit annoying: Ghost sniping, Banshee Move/Attack (Hey, you can actually use this in a game!), ling/bling challenge, maybe the zealot vs Baneling split. Most are just tediously frustrating, or pointless for any real game (I'm looking at you Scorched Earth).
I've actually found the SC2 Master map helpful for keyboard use.
I've always been a low APM player who overly relies on decision making instead of mechanics. Just doing basic stuff like tabbing through units intuitively using ability hotkeys is really helpful practice.
I've already found it helping, I'm looking at my keyboard less and my effective APM is higher.
I'm currently stuck on the 2 phoenix 3 stalker 2 templar micro insanity one. It's tricky if you aren't used to toss units, but I think I'll get it soon. I've come close a couple of times.
I've actually found the SC2 Master map helpful for keyboard use.
I've always been a low APM player who overly relies on decision making instead of mechanics. Just doing basic stuff like tabbing through units intuitively using ability hotkeys is really helpful practice.
I've already found it helping, I'm looking at my keyboard less and my effective APM is higher.
I'm currently stuck on the 2 phoenix 3 stalker 2 templar micro insanity one. It's tricky if you aren't used to toss units, but I think I'll get it soon. I've come close a couple of times.
That one's actually reeeeally easy, because you don't end up engaging more than one set of units at a time:
- Hold position stalkers (well, if they get hit right away, move back and hold)
- Temps feedback PDDs, move back and merge
- Phoenix 2-on-1 vikings from one side (nothing else can hit them!)
- Bumrush with archon first, lift tanks
It should be titled 'It's Insane If You Micro' amirite
For me the hardest one was actually the zealot/baneling split. I knew what to do but getting the splits correct was somehow a lot more time-consuming than I expected. Untouchable was also a little difficult until I got the rhythm correct. Most of the other stuff was fairly straightforward (I wish my blink micro vs. roaches was that easy in actual games...)
That challenge sounds like something that you actually have to pull off in game sometimes. So I would recommend doing it right instead of "cheating" i guess.
I mean, sometimes I just get a wild idea and get my units on different buttons, and press 1-a, 2-g and 3-t-t.
Feel like a beethoven on my keyboard, even if im toss and dont have to.
Has anyone else here seen kambing's starcraft master videos? Some of the comments are hilarious. Others make me feel good about myself. "How do you cast forcefields so fast?" Ah, I remember being a noob
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
Has anyone else here seen kambing's starcraft master videos? Some of the comments are hilarious. Others make me feel good about myself. "How do you cast forcefields so fast?" Ah, I remember being a noob
I'm not a total noob, and I still have untold issues casting FF...it's lost me a ton of games. I just can't get the mechanics down. You can't just jam shift and do it that way, the sentries will just walk around. You can't hold the FF key and do it that way, because if you click on an enemy unit while casting it will select that unit, deselect the sentries, and stop casting. The only option is cast, then hold shift, and click click click, but that's mechanically quite a bit more to do than the other methods.
Has anyone else here seen kambing's starcraft master videos? Some of the comments are hilarious. Others make me feel good about myself. "How do you cast forcefields so fast?" Ah, I remember being a noob
I'm not a total noob, and I still have untold issues casting FF...it's lost me a ton of games. I just can't get the mechanics down. You can't just jam shift and do it that way, the sentries will just walk around. You can't hold the FF key and do it that way, because if you click on an enemy unit while casting it will select that unit, deselect the sentries, and stop casting. The only option is cast, then hold shift, and click click click, but that's mechanically quite a bit more to do than the other methods.
For the challenge at least, make sure that you have all your units on hold position before you cast ff's.
Also, I just hold down f and press for ff's. I've never had an issue with clicking a different unit. Make sure that your key repeat rate is set as high as possible.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I always spammed f while clicking to forcefield fast.
Right, same as holding down...but if you click on an enemy unit while doing that, it will select that unit, and deselect your sentries. I may try actually spamming rather than holding, maybe the key repeat settings on my system aren't right and it's not repeating right away.
I've always had problems with snapping off FFs when I get caught off guard if I try to hold down F. You can see it in the video (along with the battle.net latency at work), but I just quickly alternate Fs and left-clicks.
I really enjoy how Blizzard included an example in their Master challenge of how ridiculous forcefields can be when applied properly. No forcefields on that and you get absolutely rolled over. Decent forcefields and you live with a few units. Perfect FF's and target firing from stalkers and sentries and you can do that one with only losing a few zealots.
Its also not like those toss units shouldn't win against the lings. 60 lings = 30 food, 1500 mins 0 gas. Toss units = 30 food 1500 mins 300 gas. The fact that the only reason you can't just a-move and defeat a more expensive force made up primarily of the counter to your forces isn't a sign that ff are ridiculous, just that for toss they are ridiculously necessary.
Its also not like those toss units shouldn't win against the lings. 60 lings = 30 food, 1500 mins 0 gas. Toss units = 30 food 1500 mins 300 gas. The fact that the only reason you can't just a-move and defeat a more expensive force made up primarily of the counter to your forces isn't a sign that ff are ridiculous, just that for toss they are ridiculously necessary.
Of course, toss upgrades scale a hell of a lot better than Z upgrades do, so that helps in the late game.
I actually feel pretty unprepared for defending against proxy 2-gate because somehow it died out of the metagame before I had any idea how to handle it well.
I've been told some pretty good ideas but I have yet to have a chance to try them.
What is the proper response? Holding it off in-base with micro only works when they are shit.
I kind of always just throw up a forge, a cannon and just chillax. Kill his gates, and goes for a 4 gate robo with prism. Never fails to kill them.
I've been told spine in mineral line, queen, mass lings, push out to expand and punish their cheese once you have enough of an army, and/or mix in some banes/roaches.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Its also not like those toss units shouldn't win against the lings. 60 lings = 30 food, 1500 mins 0 gas. Toss units = 30 food 1500 mins 300 gas. The fact that the only reason you can't just a-move and defeat a more expensive force made up primarily of the counter to your forces isn't a sign that ff are ridiculous, just that for toss they are ridiculously necessary.
Of course, toss upgrades scale a hell of a lot better than Z upgrades do, so that helps in the late game.
You know, when Toss DOES get to 1-A and win
I would argue that Zerg upgrades scale considerably better, but toss can get out upgrades faster. If a toss and zerg are even on upgrades anytime until the endgame, it's a massive disadvantage for toss.
Ok I phrased that poorly. It was supposed to imply ridiculous on both ends. As is, applied poorly, and you lose to a force that you should "beat" given the cost put in. Applied very well, and you laugh it off as if nothing happened. From a spammable spell on a Tier 1 unit.
Its also not like those toss units shouldn't win against the lings. 60 lings = 30 food, 1500 mins 0 gas. Toss units = 30 food 1500 mins 300 gas. The fact that the only reason you can't just a-move and defeat a more expensive force made up primarily of the counter to your forces isn't a sign that ff are ridiculous, just that for toss they are ridiculously necessary.
Of course, toss upgrades scale a hell of a lot better than Z upgrades do, so that helps in the late game.
You know, when Toss DOES get to 1-A and win
I would argue that Zerg upgrades scale considerably better, but toss can get out upgrades faster. If a toss and zerg are even on upgrades anytime until the endgame, it's a massive disadvantage for toss.
Out of curiosity, why do you say that?
My basic theory is that the higher base damage/base armor units of toss get larger overall bonuses from each layer of upgrade, while the lower base damage units of Zerg tend to gain much smaller increments (+1 damage, etc). The is especially true for robo tech. I mean, Collosus get +4 dmg per attack upgrade and it's splash, that's pretty damn good.
Its also not like those toss units shouldn't win against the lings. 60 lings = 30 food, 1500 mins 0 gas. Toss units = 30 food 1500 mins 300 gas. The fact that the only reason you can't just a-move and defeat a more expensive force made up primarily of the counter to your forces isn't a sign that ff are ridiculous, just that for toss they are ridiculously necessary.
Of course, toss upgrades scale a hell of a lot better than Z upgrades do, so that helps in the late game.
You know, when Toss DOES get to 1-A and win
I would argue that Zerg upgrades scale considerably better, but toss can get out upgrades faster. If a toss and zerg are even on upgrades anytime until the endgame, it's a massive disadvantage for toss.
Out of curiosity, why do you say that?
My basic theory is that the higher base damage/base armor units of toss get larger overall bonuses from each layer of upgrade, while the lower base damage units of Zerg tend to gain much smaller increments (+1 damage, etc). The is especially true for robo tech. I mean, Collosus get +4 dmg per attack upgrade and it's splash, that's pretty damn good.
Well, colossi and archons are exceptions to it. But roaches get a ridiculous +2 per upgrade... Equal food roaches vs stalkers with equal upgrades feels ridiculously z favored. I guess I should say equally upgraded lower tier units favor zerg, but when toss have tier 3, upgrade parity becomes less of an issue.
This actually led me to develop my current ZvP, wherein i get to three bases quickly(vs. ffe), and start getting upgrades as soon as possible, so I can generally have +2/+1, a decent roach/ling army and three bases, 2 well saturated and one somewhat saturated base by the time they try to get a 3rd or go for gateway aggression. It's been working pretty well, generally allowing me to delay their 3rd for a while saturating my own.
@Mosez Hey, I get home around 8pm PST usually. When would be good for our games?
@kedinik Anytime after that works for me. I can play Wed or Thurs.
Nintendo Network ID: Stormblessed
Xbox Live: Mosez604
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I think the real issue is that Sentries are really a required unit as P. Only in very select situations, generally to do with early aggression, do you NOT want several sentries mixed in. Just as ridiculous as opposing players think they are, a lot of P players think they are ridiculous that we must have them, all game long. You can start to phase them out, kind of, near the super late game...but even then, having them helps more than it hurts.
I think the real issue is that Sentries are really a required unit as P. Only in very select situations, generally to do with early aggression, do you NOT want several sentries mixed in. Just as ridiculous as opposing players think they are, a lot of P players think they are ridiculous that we must have them, all game long. You can start to phase them out, kind of, near the super late game...but even then, having them helps more than it hurts.
I think the real issue is that Sentries are really a required unit as P. Only in very select situations, generally to do with early aggression, do you NOT want several sentries mixed in. Just as ridiculous as opposing players think they are, a lot of P players think they are ridiculous that we must have them, all game long. You can start to phase them out, kind of, near the super late game...but even then, having them helps more than it hurts.
Every race has things like that :-/
This is the goofiest smiley
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
It doesn't quite convey what I want it to -_-
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I think the real issue is that Sentries are really a required unit as P. Only in very select situations, generally to do with early aggression, do you NOT want several sentries mixed in. Just as ridiculous as opposing players think they are, a lot of P players think they are ridiculous that we must have them, all game long. You can start to phase them out, kind of, near the super late game...but even then, having them helps more than it hurts.
Every race has things like that :-/
I can't think of any other tier 1 unit in the game that has a spell that is basically required for it's race to engage mid game, but feel free to enlighten me.
I think the real issue is that Sentries are really a required unit as P. Only in very select situations, generally to do with early aggression, do you NOT want several sentries mixed in. Just as ridiculous as opposing players think they are, a lot of P players think they are ridiculous that we must have them, all game long. You can start to phase them out, kind of, near the super late game...but even then, having them helps more than it hurts.
Every race has things like that :-/
I can't think of any other tier 1 unit in the game that has a spell that is basically required for it's race to engage mid game, but feel free to enlighten me.
I think he was just referring to things needed through the game, not necessarily exactly like sentries. Queens are kind of like it: missing injects, anytime until the very late game is super bad, you can't play without queens.
Can't think of anything for terran, but thats cause they're ezpz.
I think the real issue is that Sentries are really a required unit as P. Only in very select situations, generally to do with early aggression, do you NOT want several sentries mixed in. Just as ridiculous as opposing players think they are, a lot of P players think they are ridiculous that we must have them, all game long. You can start to phase them out, kind of, near the super late game...but even then, having them helps more than it hurts.
Every race has things like that :-/
I can't think of any other tier 1 unit in the game that has a spell that is basically required for it's race to engage mid game, but feel free to enlighten me.
Bio with Stim :P
But in all seriousness every race has a base unit composition they need to make. Any non mech army is based around Marines and things that help Marines, most midgame Zerg armies are based around Roaches and things that help Roaches, and Protoss armies are built around Gateway units and things that help Gateway units.
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What is the proper response? Holding it off in-base with micro only works when they are shit.
I kind of always just throw up a forge, a cannon and just chillax. Kill his gates, and goes for a 4 gate robo with prism. Never fails to kill them.
Roaches don't tend to come soon enough, but they can also save the day.
It's a bit tough though.
Don't know, it's a super rare occurrence, as has been said.
ed: Also helps a lot to send a handful of lings to their main to harass their probe line / macro.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I agree, most of them are stupid, but I've started playing the 3 marines v 2 zealots, the ghost sniping banelings, and the blink stalker one 2-3 times each to warm up before my first match of the day.
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It's one of those "for fun, and challenging" things.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I've always been a low APM player who overly relies on decision making instead of mechanics. Just doing basic stuff like tabbing through units intuitively using ability hotkeys is really helpful practice.
I've already found it helping, I'm looking at my keyboard less and my effective APM is higher.
I'm currently stuck on the 2 phoenix 3 stalker 2 templar micro insanity one. It's tricky if you aren't used to toss units, but I think I'll get it soon. I've come close a couple of times.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
That one's actually reeeeally easy, because you don't end up engaging more than one set of units at a time:
- Hold position stalkers (well, if they get hit right away, move back and hold)
- Temps feedback PDDs, move back and merge
- Phoenix 2-on-1 vikings from one side (nothing else can hit them!)
- Bumrush with archon first, lift tanks
It should be titled 'It's Insane If You Micro' amirite
For me the hardest one was actually the zealot/baneling split. I knew what to do but getting the splits correct was somehow a lot more time-consuming than I expected. Untouchable was also a little difficult until I got the rhythm correct. Most of the other stuff was fairly straightforward (I wish my blink micro vs. roaches was that easy in actual games...)
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Feel like a beethoven on my keyboard, even if im toss and dont have to.
http://www.facebook.com/MillStephano/posts/283906748345644
I'm not a total noob, and I still have untold issues casting FF...it's lost me a ton of games. I just can't get the mechanics down. You can't just jam shift and do it that way, the sentries will just walk around. You can't hold the FF key and do it that way, because if you click on an enemy unit while casting it will select that unit, deselect the sentries, and stop casting. The only option is cast, then hold shift, and click click click, but that's mechanically quite a bit more to do than the other methods.
For the challenge at least, make sure that you have all your units on hold position before you cast ff's.
Also, I just hold down f and press for ff's. I've never had an issue with clicking a different unit. Make sure that your key repeat rate is set as high as possible.
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Igne cutis
Right, same as holding down...but if you click on an enemy unit while doing that, it will select that unit, and deselect your sentries. I may try actually spamming rather than holding, maybe the key repeat settings on my system aren't right and it's not repeating right away.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Of course, toss upgrades scale a hell of a lot better than Z upgrades do, so that helps in the late game.
You know, when Toss DOES get to 1-A and win
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
I've been told spine in mineral line, queen, mass lings, push out to expand and punish their cheese once you have enough of an army, and/or mix in some banes/roaches.
I would argue that Zerg upgrades scale considerably better, but toss can get out upgrades faster. If a toss and zerg are even on upgrades anytime until the endgame, it's a massive disadvantage for toss.
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Igne cutis
Ok I phrased that poorly. It was supposed to imply ridiculous on both ends. As is, applied poorly, and you lose to a force that you should "beat" given the cost put in. Applied very well, and you laugh it off as if nothing happened. From a spammable spell on a Tier 1 unit.
Out of curiosity, why do you say that?
My basic theory is that the higher base damage/base armor units of toss get larger overall bonuses from each layer of upgrade, while the lower base damage units of Zerg tend to gain much smaller increments (+1 damage, etc). The is especially true for robo tech. I mean, Collosus get +4 dmg per attack upgrade and it's splash, that's pretty damn good.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
Collosus, archons, dts.
They all come out doing a ton of extra damage.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Well, colossi and archons are exceptions to it. But roaches get a ridiculous +2 per upgrade... Equal food roaches vs stalkers with equal upgrades feels ridiculously z favored. I guess I should say equally upgraded lower tier units favor zerg, but when toss have tier 3, upgrade parity becomes less of an issue.
This actually led me to develop my current ZvP, wherein i get to three bases quickly(vs. ffe), and start getting upgrades as soon as possible, so I can generally have +2/+1, a decent roach/ling army and three bases, 2 well saturated and one somewhat saturated base by the time they try to get a 3rd or go for gateway aggression. It's been working pretty well, generally allowing me to delay their 3rd for a while saturating my own.
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Not if you have blink or an appropriate number of sentries.
@kedinik Anytime after that works for me. I can play Wed or Thurs.
Xbox Live: Mosez604
I'm assuming a decent ling flank.
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Every race has things like that :-/
This is the goofiest smiley
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
I can't think of any other tier 1 unit in the game that has a spell that is basically required for it's race to engage mid game, but feel free to enlighten me.
I think he was just referring to things needed through the game, not necessarily exactly like sentries. Queens are kind of like it: missing injects, anytime until the very late game is super bad, you can't play without queens.
Can't think of anything for terran, but thats cause they're ezpz.
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
Bio with Stim :P
But in all seriousness every race has a base unit composition they need to make. Any non mech army is based around Marines and things that help Marines, most midgame Zerg armies are based around Roaches and things that help Roaches, and Protoss armies are built around Gateway units and things that help Gateway units.