Song lyrics that glorify violence are hardly uncommon. But a prosecutor in California says one rapper's violent lyrics go beyond creative license to conspiracy.
San Diego-based rapper Tiny Doo has already spent eight months in prison, and faces 25 years to life in prison if convicted under a little-known California statute that makes it illegal to benefit from gang activities.
The statute in question is California Penal Code 182.5. The code makes it a felony for anyone to participate in a criminal street gang, have knowledge that a street gang has engaged in criminal activity, or benefit from that activity.
It's that last part -- benefiting from criminal activity -- that prosecutors are going after the rapper for.
Tiny Doo, whose real name is Brandon Duncan, faces nine counts of criminal street gang conspiracy because prosecutors allege he and 14 other alleged gang members increased their stature and respect following a rash of shootings in the city in 2013.
Prosecutors point to Tiny Doo's album, "No Safety," and to lyrics like "Ain't no safety on this pistol I'm holding" as examples of a "direct correlation to what the gang has been doing."
No one suggests the rapper ever actually pulled a trigger.
In fact, Duncan may rap about violence but he's got no criminal record.
Duncan told CNN's Don Lemon he's just "painting a picture of urban street life" with his lyrics.
"The studio is my canvas. I'm just painting a picture," he said. "I'm not telling anybody to go out and kill somebody."
He denied any involvement with any gang but said the prosecution has him concerned about future creative expression.
"I would love to continue to rap," he said. "But these people have you scared to do anything around here."
Prosecutors say lyrics aren't the only evidence they have. At Duncan's preliminary hearing, they presented social media posts that they say prove Duncan is still a gang member.
CNN Legal Analyst Mark Geragos says the district attorney may be trying to send a message "that you shouldn't glorify or glamorize gang activity."
"The problem is you're going to run straight head-on into the First Amendment," he said. "If they don't have anything other than the album, this case I don't think would ever stand up."
The statute in question is California Penal Code 182.5. The code makes it a felony for anyone to participate in a criminal street gang, have knowledge that a street gang has engaged in criminal activity, or benefit from that activity.
Holy hell, that's one screwed up law. "We can't charge you with an actual crime, because you didn't commit one, so we'll charge you with having criminals as passing acquaintances, and that'll be a felony too, because associating with criminals is worse than being one". I knew California laws were screwed up, but man, they don't need to keep proving it all the time.
That'sthe kinds of laws you get when 1) you don't have a super-majority and 2) people think being 'tough on crime' is more important than how to address the causes of it.
That'sthe kinds of laws you get when 1) you don't have a super-majority and 2) people think being 'tough on crime' is more important than how to address the causes of it.
Way to go!
I think it's one of those laws that was written with good intentions, but also loosely defined in order to give law enforcement broad discretion in how it's used. (A terrible idea if there ever was one.) It's supposed to be used against hard criminals pushing gang violence, not some poor nobody writing rap lyrics. I'm curious how this guy even fell under the state's microscope, as it really looks like they just surfed Facebook looking for someone to charge. Edit: According to the state he was a documented gang member who posted a facebook picture of himself with several men accused of murder. He has no criminal record. What's even sadder is that this poor bastard has already done 8 months in prison and he hasn't even had a trial. A trial that will most definitely get the charges thrown out if all they have is facebook posts and vague lyrics. Me thinks they're just trying to smoke him into pleading.
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
It kind of looks like someone's trying to make an example of him.
It kind of looks like someone's trying to make an example of him.
Which really begs the question of why if the prosecutors have actual shooters to charge, they're wasting any time on this guy? Maybe to get him to talk?
It kind of looks like someone's trying to make an example of him.
Which really begs the question of why if the prosecutors have actual shooters to charge, they're wasting any time on this guy? Maybe to get him to talk?
Because going after actual hardened criminals is more dangerous than going after people that talk about those criminals.
Plus they are, much more often than not, just killing other criminals or the occasional poor inner city dweller. If one of those shooters walked into a suburb and popped a soccer mom or off-duty cop it would be different.
The way the media likes to itemize every violent video game a kid plays when some kid goes crazy, or the talking heads like to blame the rap music for inner city violence, the media thread may not be the worst place for it. If it generates enough genuine discussion and not a meta discussion on where it belongs, then a separate thread would be warranted.
The law is in place because it allows law enforcement to go after the ring leaders who might not have direct ties to the gang. Kind of how they got Capone with tax evasion.
They're going after Duncan because either they believe is an important part of the gang or they believe he can flip and tell them about the gang. That being said, if all they have is the lyrics they're going to lose and really should not have tried. I suspect that we will find out that they have more than the lyrics.
The law is in place because it allows law enforcement to go after the ring leaders who might not have direct ties to the gang. Kind of how they got Capone with tax evasion.
They're going after Duncan because either they believe is an important part of the gang or they believe he can flip and tell them about the gang. That being said, if all they have is the lyrics they're going to lose and really should not have tried. I suspect that we will find out that they have more than the lyrics.
Maybe, but human capacity for stupidity, dickishness, etc. is basically unlimited.
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
Million dollar bond. So yes.
Hi, I would like to introduce you to the criminal justice system. Or as I like to call it, The land that lady liberty forgot.
There are a lot of problems with it, and just about every solution involves getting rid of the tough on crime mentality, so good fucking luck getting anything done about it.
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jmcdonaldI voted, did you?DC(ish)Registered Userregular
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
Million dollar bond. So yes.
Hi, I would like to introduce you to the criminal justice system. Or as I like to call it, The land that lady liberty forgot.
There are a lot of problems with it, and just about every solution involves getting rid of the tough on crime mentality, so good fucking luck getting anything done about it.
A Google link? With nothing else?
Yeah. The criminal justice system has some issues. Don't see anyone disagreeing with that. Million dollar bond seems pretty high. Don't see anyone disagreeing with that. Eight months is a long time to wait for trial. Yep, no disagreement there.
Edit
Also, it appears that his bail was reduced to 50000 and he posted and is now awaiting trial.
they might lose but they've already locked the dude up for 8 fucking months because he made an album
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
Million dollar bond. So yes.
Hi, I would like to introduce you to the criminal justice system. Or as I like to call it, The land that lady liberty forgot.
There are a lot of problems with it, and just about every solution involves getting rid of the tough on crime mentality, so good fucking luck getting anything done about it.
Wont do nothing about it because cop unions are power brokers and politicians are scared shitless of losing power.
I don't even want to imagine the horrific thing that would have to happen to get politicians to even consider it.
Don't even bring up the fact that other first world nations have a fraction of our recidivism rate because they actually treat criminals as human beings and, *gasp*, rehabilitates them.
Posts
Way to go!
I think it's one of those laws that was written with good intentions, but also loosely defined in order to give law enforcement broad discretion in how it's used. (A terrible idea if there ever was one.) It's supposed to be used against hard criminals pushing gang violence, not some poor nobody writing rap lyrics. I'm curious how this guy even fell under the state's microscope, as it really looks like they just surfed Facebook looking for someone to charge. Edit: According to the state he was a documented gang member who posted a facebook picture of himself with several men accused of murder. He has no criminal record. What's even sadder is that this poor bastard has already done 8 months in prison and he hasn't even had a trial. A trial that will most definitely get the charges thrown out if all they have is facebook posts and vague lyrics. Me thinks they're just trying to smoke him into pleading.
Laws should never be written using vague terms to allow for broad enforcement. That's about the shittiest goddamned thing possible.
Which really begs the question of why if the prosecutors have actual shooters to charge, they're wasting any time on this guy? Maybe to get him to talk?
Because going after actual hardened criminals is more dangerous than going after people that talk about those criminals.
Plus they are, much more often than not, just killing other criminals or the occasional poor inner city dweller. If one of those shooters walked into a suburb and popped a soccer mom or off-duty cop it would be different.
Prison thread, maybe? Is it enough to justify its own?
MWO: Adamski
They're going after Duncan because either they believe is an important part of the gang or they believe he can flip and tell them about the gang. That being said, if all they have is the lyrics they're going to lose and really should not have tried. I suspect that we will find out that they have more than the lyrics.
Maybe, but human capacity for stupidity, dickishness, etc. is basically unlimited.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
This is what gets me. Stupid laws happen. They're inevitable if only cause of people. But a speedy trial should have wrapped that up in a few days. There's zero good reason for him to not have been in front of a judge yet.
Actually, why hasn't his lawyer demanded his release under the right to speedy trial?
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
It looks like he's one of twenty five accused gang members on trial. The prosecution asserts that there is evidence that shows this person was an active member of the gang at the time of the alleged crimes.
Who knows tho. If it was solely the album I would be inclined to think that this would have been thrown out some time ago as his attorney appears competent.
I guess we'll see at trial.
8 months is still excessive, and seems like a clear violation of the constitution - has there even been a bail hearing yet?
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Million dollar bond. So yes.
WTF. That seems rather grossly disproportionate.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
That's because he's fucking Al Capone.
Flight risk?
I dunno. It is pretty goddamned high yeah.
Hi, I would like to introduce you to the criminal justice system. Or as I like to call it, The land that lady liberty forgot.
There are a lot of problems with it, and just about every solution involves getting rid of the tough on crime mentality, so good fucking luck getting anything done about it.
A Google link? With nothing else?
Yeah. The criminal justice system has some issues. Don't see anyone disagreeing with that. Million dollar bond seems pretty high. Don't see anyone disagreeing with that. Eight months is a long time to wait for trial. Yep, no disagreement there.
Edit
Also, it appears that his bail was reduced to 50000 and he posted and is now awaiting trial.
Edit 2
Removed some snark
Wont do nothing about it because cop unions are power brokers and politicians are scared shitless of losing power.
I don't even want to imagine the horrific thing that would have to happen to get politicians to even consider it.
Don't even bring up the fact that other first world nations have a fraction of our recidivism rate because they actually treat criminals as human beings and, *gasp*, rehabilitates them.
"New year, new scandals, but the same American political news media, that still fails"
I admit that might be a bit too long.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
This has my support. It covers what the APM is actually doing.
"Watching Nero Fiddle" seems more analogous.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I like this general theme, but how about:
"Covering Nero's Fiddling While Rome Burns?"
"Is Rome burning a cover from the liberal agenda? Some say yes."