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A Thread of Spoilers of a Series of a Song of Ice & Fire (Thread is dark & full of grues)
Blendtec
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Registered User regular
If you're looking for the show thread, you're in the wrong kingdom. It's here though. Anything beyond this could be spoiler territory.
The show is going to deviate more and more from the books, both in terms of completely different content, and content the books haven't gotten to yet. Please use spoiler tags where appropriate.
Once upon a time a boy in New Jersey had some pet turtles. Unfortunately for the boy, the turtles never lived very long, so in his imagination they lived and died in a land of medieval court intrigue and war. Years later that boy would grow up, grow a beard, and write some books.
Today, his turtles live on die in the lands of Westeros and Essos in the hugely popular A Song of Ice and Fire. The series, originally planned for 7 books, has spawned 5 novels (write faster dammit!), several short stories and novellas, cookbooks, atlases, some other stuff I'm forgetting, and some TV show that no one really watches. Do not go posting spoilers, something you think is a clever hint or foreshadowing in the show thread. Book is a 4 letter word over there, so be careful about which thread you're posting in.
Taken from the last thread, thanks @Yar and @Quid.
The Major Players
Some pretty major spoilers here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEhByk4Icg
Some actual characters.
Links
A Wiki of Ice and Fire.
Speculative Map. This is out of date given there's an actual map book, but it's still a great reference.
Game of Thrones (TV Show) Wiki.
There is a new book (not Winds unfortunately) OUT! It's an encyclopedia, A World of Ice and Fire. It's got a lot of really well done illustrations, but the writing is a bit suspect. It's also already out as an iStuff and Android app. The apps are free but have in-app purchases to unlock more content.
The show is going to deviate more and more from the books, both in terms of completely different content, and content the books haven't gotten to yet. Please use spoiler tags where appropriate.
Once upon a time a boy in New Jersey had some pet turtles. Unfortunately for the boy, the turtles never lived very long, so in his imagination they lived and died in a land of medieval court intrigue and war. Years later that boy would grow up, grow a beard, and write some books.
Today, his turtles live on die in the lands of Westeros and Essos in the hugely popular A Song of Ice and Fire. The series, originally planned for 7 books, has spawned 5 novels (write faster dammit!), several short stories and novellas, cookbooks, atlases, some other stuff I'm forgetting, and some TV show that no one really watches. Do not go posting spoilers, something you think is a clever hint or foreshadowing in the show thread. Book is a 4 letter word over there, so be careful about which thread you're posting in.
Taken from the last thread, thanks @Yar and @Quid.
#1 rule is no crying about something being spoiled, assuming it's already published material. If you haven't read all the books AND seen every aired show, then you are forbidden from accusing someone else of spoiling something for you. If you're posting an interview with GRRM where he talks about stuff that will happen in Book 6, yeah, that is the very epitome of a spoiler and must be tagged.
#2 rule, less important than #1, is to use your own best judgment and put tags around some things, like maybe details of TRW, or R+L=J theories, or major stuff from Book 5. Definitely anything about a show that hasn't aired (besides what we know from the books), or confirmed plot facts in books not yet published. Someone could very well click this thread by accident instead of the TV one, and they sure as hell don't want to see this in non-tagged form:
(major spoilers from books 3 - 5 as an example)Hey, remember when Robb and Catelyn were killed by the Freys, and Sansa married Tyrion, but then Catelyn came back as an evil zombie and Joff chokes to death and Tyrion murders his father, and Jamie sort of becomes a good guy? That was awesome.
#3 rule is to try to do what I did above and preface your spoiler tags with a very brief description of what kind of spoiler it is and about when it occurs in the series.
Like so. Seriously, if you don't want spoilers, don't read this thread. Stop right now cause below this sentence? Thar be spoilers.
The Major Players
Some pretty major spoilers here.
House Targaryen - 300 years ago the last survivors of the Doom of Valyria decided their volcanic island was boring and conquered Westeros with some dragons and incest. They ruled with varying success until one king was a little too crazy for his own good and was cast down in a rebellion led by the Starks and Baratheons. Dany is the last confirmed Targaryen, her story has yet to take her to Westeros. As of the end of book 5 someone at least claiming to be Aegon Targaryen has landed in Westeros, aiming to reclaim the throne. There's probably some other secret Targaryens or Blackfyres (an offshot), cause why not.
House Baratheon - Rulers of the Stormlands, Robert Baratheon married Cersei Lannister and took the throne following his rebellion. Now Robert and his youngest brother Renly are dead, and Robert's children aren't actually his. Stannis "the Mannis" Baratheon continues to wage a civil war for his claim to the throne in the name of R'hllor, a god from Essos. Stannis is aided by Davos Seaworth, a former pirate turned advisor, and Melisandre, a powerful priestess of R'hllor, who believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai reborn. After a failed attack on King's Landing, Stannis refocuses his efforts on winning the hearts and minds of Westeros, starting in the North.
House Stark - Everything bad happens to the Starks, lords of the North. You start reading the books and you're thinking "here's some protagonists I can really get behind!", then a bunch of them are dead and the rest are in hiding. The kidnapping and killing of some Starks led to Robert's Rebellion. Now the house is considered extinct, all its members either dead, assumed dead, unable to claim their birthright, or turning into trees. The Stark children, save Sansa, all have pet direwolves, and most of them have exhibited at least some magical powers in the form of warging. The Starks are tied via marriage to the also extinct House Tully of the Riverlands. The torture happy House Bolton has replaced the Starks as the Wardens of the North, but the North Remembers and enjoys pie.
House Lannister - These guys have their own theme song, and they really like hearing it. The Lannisters are masters of using their power and wealth to further themselves, usually at high cost to others. Tommen Lannister Baratheon is currently the King of Westeros, born of an incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jaime Lannister. Tyrion Lannister, arguably the most well known character of the series, is currently in exile in Essos for murdering his father Tywin. While most of the series chronicles their rise to power, by the end of book 5 the surviving members barely hold a rapidly crumbling kingdom. Tommen's cat is the Pounce That Was Promised.
House Greyjoy - Vikings. That's pretty much it, they raid and pillage and propel other plot elements. No godless man may sit on the Seastone Chair, except Euron, who may or may not be Daario and/or Benjen and/or a secret Targaryen. Victarion has some crazy magic sizzling bacon hand thing going on. Reek, Reek it rhymes with leek/meek/sneak/weak.
House Tyrell - Ruling house of the kingdom's breadbasket, the Tyrells want nothing more than to take the throne. Margaery Tyrell is the current queen of Westeros, and her family has shouldered much of the monumental task of rebuilding the realm following a massive civil war. They are famously loyal only to themselves and could easily change sides again as it suites them.
House Martell - Rulers of the desert of Dorne, House Martell has the most ties to House Targaryen. Throughout most of the series they are simply mentioned, but through political maneuvering and long term scheming they are quickly forcing their way into main events. House Martell is headed by Doran, seeking revenge for the deaths of his sister Ellia during Robert's Rebellion, and his brother Oberyn, both at the hands of the Lannisters. Doran's daughter Arianne, and Oberyn's daughters the Sand Snakes are the other major players. Darkstar isn't a Martell, but he is of the night.
House Arryn / Baelish - Jon Arryn fostered Robert and Ned as children, and he would be the driving force behind Robert's Rebellion. Later he served as Robert's Hand, and his death at the hands of his wife Lysa and the former Master of Coins, Littlefinger, launches the events of the books. Littlefinger is currently in control of the Vale following his own murder of Lysa. Sansa Stark is in hiding with Littlefinger, who plans to wed her to Harry "the Heir" of the Vale, the only region other than Dorne untouched by the War of the 5 Kings. Littlefinger is also Lord of the Riverlands, and there is no way his meteoric rise to power will come back to bite him.
Night's Watch - Defenders of Westeros from the mysterious and evil Others / White Walkers, the Black Brothers guard a massive ice wall far in the North. Forbidden from engaging in the affairs of the rest of the kingdom, the Watch is largely ignored by the rest of the world as most consider the Others nothing more than myth. Under the leadership of Jon Snow the Watch ended its 8000 year old conflict with the Wildings, free people north of the Wall. A popular theory sees Jon as the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, the kidnapping/coupling that led to Robert's Rebellion. He's also probably the Prince That Was Promised and/or Azor Ahai and/or one of the heads of the dragon, but prophecies are words and words are wind and Jon ends the last book sporting some new knives in his back.
Essos - The other continent. The western portion of which is ruled by 9 powerful and always warring city states. The middle portion is controlled by the powerful Dothraki, who are basically the Mongols. There's a bunch of stuff to the far east that only gets brief mentions, and even more that is only on some maps in some sources. Dany Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister and Victarion Greyjoy are all currently in the southern Slaver's Bay, hopefully about to do something.
House Baratheon - Rulers of the Stormlands, Robert Baratheon married Cersei Lannister and took the throne following his rebellion. Now Robert and his youngest brother Renly are dead, and Robert's children aren't actually his. Stannis "the Mannis" Baratheon continues to wage a civil war for his claim to the throne in the name of R'hllor, a god from Essos. Stannis is aided by Davos Seaworth, a former pirate turned advisor, and Melisandre, a powerful priestess of R'hllor, who believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai reborn. After a failed attack on King's Landing, Stannis refocuses his efforts on winning the hearts and minds of Westeros, starting in the North.
House Stark - Everything bad happens to the Starks, lords of the North. You start reading the books and you're thinking "here's some protagonists I can really get behind!", then a bunch of them are dead and the rest are in hiding. The kidnapping and killing of some Starks led to Robert's Rebellion. Now the house is considered extinct, all its members either dead, assumed dead, unable to claim their birthright, or turning into trees. The Stark children, save Sansa, all have pet direwolves, and most of them have exhibited at least some magical powers in the form of warging. The Starks are tied via marriage to the also extinct House Tully of the Riverlands. The torture happy House Bolton has replaced the Starks as the Wardens of the North, but the North Remembers and enjoys pie.
House Lannister - These guys have their own theme song, and they really like hearing it. The Lannisters are masters of using their power and wealth to further themselves, usually at high cost to others. Tommen Lannister Baratheon is currently the King of Westeros, born of an incestuous relationship between Cersei and Jaime Lannister. Tyrion Lannister, arguably the most well known character of the series, is currently in exile in Essos for murdering his father Tywin. While most of the series chronicles their rise to power, by the end of book 5 the surviving members barely hold a rapidly crumbling kingdom. Tommen's cat is the Pounce That Was Promised.
House Greyjoy - Vikings. That's pretty much it, they raid and pillage and propel other plot elements. No godless man may sit on the Seastone Chair, except Euron, who may or may not be Daario and/or Benjen and/or a secret Targaryen. Victarion has some crazy magic sizzling bacon hand thing going on. Reek, Reek it rhymes with leek/meek/sneak/weak.
House Tyrell - Ruling house of the kingdom's breadbasket, the Tyrells want nothing more than to take the throne. Margaery Tyrell is the current queen of Westeros, and her family has shouldered much of the monumental task of rebuilding the realm following a massive civil war. They are famously loyal only to themselves and could easily change sides again as it suites them.
House Martell - Rulers of the desert of Dorne, House Martell has the most ties to House Targaryen. Throughout most of the series they are simply mentioned, but through political maneuvering and long term scheming they are quickly forcing their way into main events. House Martell is headed by Doran, seeking revenge for the deaths of his sister Ellia during Robert's Rebellion, and his brother Oberyn, both at the hands of the Lannisters. Doran's daughter Arianne, and Oberyn's daughters the Sand Snakes are the other major players. Darkstar isn't a Martell, but he is of the night.
House Arryn / Baelish - Jon Arryn fostered Robert and Ned as children, and he would be the driving force behind Robert's Rebellion. Later he served as Robert's Hand, and his death at the hands of his wife Lysa and the former Master of Coins, Littlefinger, launches the events of the books. Littlefinger is currently in control of the Vale following his own murder of Lysa. Sansa Stark is in hiding with Littlefinger, who plans to wed her to Harry "the Heir" of the Vale, the only region other than Dorne untouched by the War of the 5 Kings. Littlefinger is also Lord of the Riverlands, and there is no way his meteoric rise to power will come back to bite him.
Night's Watch - Defenders of Westeros from the mysterious and evil Others / White Walkers, the Black Brothers guard a massive ice wall far in the North. Forbidden from engaging in the affairs of the rest of the kingdom, the Watch is largely ignored by the rest of the world as most consider the Others nothing more than myth. Under the leadership of Jon Snow the Watch ended its 8000 year old conflict with the Wildings, free people north of the Wall. A popular theory sees Jon as the child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, the kidnapping/coupling that led to Robert's Rebellion. He's also probably the Prince That Was Promised and/or Azor Ahai and/or one of the heads of the dragon, but prophecies are words and words are wind and Jon ends the last book sporting some new knives in his back.
Essos - The other continent. The western portion of which is ruled by 9 powerful and always warring city states. The middle portion is controlled by the powerful Dothraki, who are basically the Mongols. There's a bunch of stuff to the far east that only gets brief mentions, and even more that is only on some maps in some sources. Dany Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister and Victarion Greyjoy are all currently in the southern Slaver's Bay, hopefully about to do something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEhByk4IcgSome actual characters.
Links
A Wiki of Ice and Fire.
Speculative Map. This is out of date given there's an actual map book, but it's still a great reference.
Game of Thrones (TV Show) Wiki.
There is a new book (not Winds unfortunately) OUT! It's an encyclopedia, A World of Ice and Fire. It's got a lot of really well done illustrations, but the writing is a bit suspect. It's also already out as an iStuff and Android app. The apps are free but have in-app purchases to unlock more content.
Blendtec on
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I've added a couple minor things to the OP from last thread, this is chief among them.
I don't get how people missed it was damphair.
Because he dunks a lotta people in water he has wet hair. Damp hair. Queue silly nickname.
Maybe because the one time they tried, a hurricane destroyed their fleet.
The Ironborn had been built up as decidedly non-silly people who would not give out silly nicknames. The idea of a sense of humor among them does not occur until later.
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I disagree. The Dothraki are famous for wrecking stuff in Essos, but keep in mind, all the cities they destroyed around the Dothraki Sea (all the Vaes Whatever ones) weren't walled or very big. When they attacked the Free Cities or Slaver's Bay, they were always thrown back. They lack the siege tactics required to take big cities, and especially not those in Westeros that are used to that sort of warfare. They would ride around and mess up the countryside, some places might starve and the smallfolk would hate it. The absolute worst they could do is trigger another rebellion if the lords don't stop them and the smallfolk rise up.
They'd be easy prey to knights, see any time someone with an arakh fights someone with armor. They'd be in trouble with winter too, especially the coming one. Then there's the whole not having a fleet, and even if they did, being deathly afraid of the oceans. We saw what happened with Khal Drogo, the biggest and most powerful leader they had when he suggested they cross the ocean, it ultimately led to his death and the breaking of his khalasar.
Now, I dunno if Ned knew all that. I get the feeling he just thought affairs in Westeros were more important than a potential invasion from a group of people who have never left their continent.
Eh, I never saw it as a humorous title, more as a badge of honor/mocking him for being crazy about religion.
Pretty easy if you read it as a title instead of a nickname. If I were giving someone a nickname like Damp Hair, I'd write it as two words.
Kingslayer
Stormborn
Giantsbane
Thunderfist
Littlefinger
Probably some more, but there is a precedent to nicknames being two words smooshed into one.
Damp Hair is stupid and doesn't really fit with what the reader knows about the characters at that point (or really, I'd say now even) and in English the natural inclination is to read ph as an f.
But it's damp hair because he's got damp hair.
Add that to the OP and moooooooooooooooove on
It's not like this series is subtle about stupid names. We've got such winners as the wonderfully named Kettleblack family too.
Probably because the Dothraki do not pose any serious threat to Westeros. They're deathly afraid of open sea, have no navy(and what could be cobbled up could be taken on easily by the Westerosi). Their entire army is basically cavalry, making the supply train enormous for any excursion beyond locales capable of normally supporting their troops(i.e. far beyond the Dothraki Sea). Unlike the actual Mongols, they have stupid ideas about wearing armour, and their tactics seem more like a random barbarian horde over the actually regimented and well organized Mongols. That's not even taking into account that if they got to Westeros, they'd have to deal with basically every place being fortified up the wazoo, and while they can pillage and plunder the hell out of the countryside, what they'll be able to forage would be scraps left from all the food and such being stockpiled in the fortified castles and cities.
And then the Winter comes.
People keep trying to justify why they were a threat, but I've yet to see a convincing argument. To plenty of places in Essos? Yeah. To Westeros? No. If they got there, they'd mostly go there to starve, freeze, or both. They'd still annihilate a sizable portion of the peasants left outside the fortifications, but in the end they could not win.
Once there's a Targaryen claimant in Westeros with some credibility, a whole lot of locals were expected to side with her. Or hoped. That was their plan, anyway, and Robert seemed to think it was a reasonable fear.
I don't think it's a silly name at all.
The Ironborn have like important god, the god of the ocean. The damphair is nuts for him, and is constantly in the ocean, and engaged in ritual and ceremony. It would make sense that he'd earn a nickname that conjured up images of wetness and water. I've always taken it as something that signified his religious extremism. He's the damphair, and he will fucking drown your ass in praise of his god.
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Agree that (F?)aegon will tell us a bit. If he fails due to lack of support, then certainly Dany would have done the same in tougher circumstances.
And likewise don't share the Mongol's penchant for heavy cavalry (about 40% of their cavalry would have been lancers to work with the 60% horse archers), press ganging engineers from the vanquished to help them build siege weapons, spying and recon, or being perfectly fine parking their commander on a hill with good visibility so he could command from a good vantage point instead of being within range of the enemy's archers to prove personal valor. The Dothraki are kind of like how Westerners viewed the Mongols, as barbarians with a lot of horses as opposed to cunning and intelligent foreigners that had very brutal practices. The terror ascribed to the Mongols gets applied to the Dothraki but not many of the reasons the Mongols earned their reputation.
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Easiest victory ever, since the Khal has this penchant for fighting in the front lines without armor.
Khal meets wall, then Khal meets arrow, then khalasar is destroyed from within and without.
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I have a feeling it wouldn't go exactly like negotiations in The Fifth Element if the Khal were killed mid-battle, but it's an amusing mental image.
As opposed to those of the Sunset Kingdoms, who have held it together *so well* after Robert's death?
There's a bit of a difference between consistent succession crises versus occasional ones. Plus technically Robert's death only triggered Stannis and Renly fighting over the crown. The North didn't rebel for independence until after Ned was executed and the Ironborn may not have gone raiding had the North and therefore the nearest targets gotten caught up in things. Had Robert died with actual children next in line for succession, there's a good chance things would have gone more smoothly.
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Well there's a difference between having a horrible successor versus not having an easy to follow line of succession.
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Fair point, as a swede I just assume mashing words together is natural, it's pretty much the basis for how swedish works. English tends to separate words like that instead, making damphair somewhat weirder I guess.
And on topic, so sad about the next episode. They absolutely nailed Oberyn, and seeing him die won't be easier than reading about it.
When the old thread comes back as a general in an army of dragons and Dothraki you will see who is too old.
Yeah, but maesters are still a thing.
Hey, ya know, if you kill that guy with the longest braid, they'll most likely fight each other over who takes charge of the khalasar or at least break apart. Then we can, ya know, murder them all in the resulting chaos.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
presumably, the plan was for Viserys to assume command of some 40,000 riders. They'd be following him, with no Khal.
It's one of Varys's schemes. There's a lot more to it than just the Dothraki. I figure the original plan was to have those riders plus Dorne and mercenaries from Essos.
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I thought it'd be cheesy, but it's actually well put together.
Potential series spoilers from interview with Martin.
Wait... it's "King Slayer?!" And all this time I thought Jaime was the King's Layer, on account of Cersei and all :winky:
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You got it. I tried to be clever with Song, but I can see how it'd throw people off.
I'm always open to suggestions for the title and the OP.
The thread where we discuss what happened when Tywin spilled his guts to Tyrion.
A Song of Ice and Damp Hair