The Pitt definitely had the hardest moral decision in the game for me.
Was hoping New Vegas would bring some more of that "oh my god, I can't believe they convinced me to side with a slaver, I hate myself" feeling with Caesar's Legion but the Legion are pretty iredeemable. Theres no end goal they're working towards that doesn't turn mankind into barbaric monsters.
They could have tried to make Caesar try and convince the PC the horror and slavery was only temporary, only a necessity until the land was whole again
but really, even if he wasn't dying they wouldn't accomplish that in his lifetime
Ashur's goals seemed so attainable, and if they were remotely successful other groups like the DC brotherhood might carry the torch
there's no future to the legion, and Caesar is a madman, and I kind of like that. Not every bad guy needs a silver lining. The NCR has plenty of moral ambiguity
I feel like a car would be awesome in Fallout IV but only if the game world is as big as Daggerfall, which is never going to happen. All the Bethesda worlds post-Daggerfall are just way too small for that kind it vehicle.
I'm hoping the next iteration (and I can only assume with the texa$ this franchise hauls in that there WILL be a next iteration despite the lack of news...) will be PC and next-gen consoles only, which presumably will allow more content and a larger world.
Larger world maybe but I wouldn't get my hopes up. There was a stark change in design philosophies between Daggerfall and Morrowind. Morrowind and post-Morrowind is waaaaay more scripted than Daggerfall, and way smaller as a result. When every character is scripted to some degree, you can only make your world so large. It really has nothing to do with performance/hardware. Development scope is the big issue.
Here's some comparative stats:
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion -- 16 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind -- 6 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall -- 62 square miles
That's right.
But most of Daggerfall's world was procedurally/randomly generated.
I just don't see them going to that scope ever again. If they want to sculpt everything individually, then there's a flat zero percent chance.
I'm not going to argue which is better or worse. Both methods have their pros and cons. But in my opinion, a car would only work in a giant game world like Daggerfall's. And in all likelihood, we're never going to see that again.
i just finished playing daggerfall on monday. 62 square miles of empty nothingness between towns that all look the same filled with repeating buggy quests filled with npcs who all look the same. nothing outside of the main quest is even remotely interesting aside from maybe the daedric stuff and that shit like the rest of the game is just a buggy mess. (oh the wereboar cure quest was fun as hell with a gut punching twist i loved)
give me 6 square miles of actual content anyday. daggerfall has 36 hours playtime recorded and im done with it, morrowind, oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3/nv all have up to and over 200 hours.
so yes, thank god we're not gonna see a game world like daggerfall again. (i still had fun though with those 36 hours, shame they couldn't add more)
The Pitt definitely had the hardest moral decision in the game for me.
Was hoping New Vegas would bring some more of that "oh my god, I can't believe they convinced me to side with a slaver, I hate myself" feeling with Caesar's Legion but the Legion are pretty iredeemable. Theres no end goal they're working towards that doesn't turn mankind into barbaric monsters.
On the other side of this is how I felt.
I was glad and found it very refreshing that they didn't bend over backwards to make the "evil" option a chalky flavor of evil-but-only-in-a-sort-of-cool-way-that-is-still-really-palatable-to-gamers.
I tended to side with Ashur because he's fully aware of what a shit show is going on in The Pitt, but he sees it as a necessary evil to reach a goal that ultimately benefits everyone. Sure he could have gone about it differently, or informed more people of what his plan actually was, but he was dealing with what he had to hand.
<40k sperg> It kind of reminds me of when the Emperor cloistered himself away to work on his golden throne and the webway of mankind and kept the whole thing shtum from absolutely everyone, including his primarch sons, which was ultimately his undoing when it engendered discord that led to the Horus heresy </40k sperg>
I feel like a car would be awesome in Fallout IV but only if the game world is as big as Daggerfall, which is never going to happen. All the Bethesda worlds post-Daggerfall are just way too small for that kind it vehicle.
I'm hoping the next iteration (and I can only assume with the texa$ this franchise hauls in that there WILL be a next iteration despite the lack of news...) will be PC and next-gen consoles only, which presumably will allow more content and a larger world.
Larger world maybe but I wouldn't get my hopes up. There was a stark change in design philosophies between Daggerfall and Morrowind. Morrowind and post-Morrowind is waaaaay more scripted than Daggerfall, and way smaller as a result. When every character is scripted to some degree, you can only make your world so large. It really has nothing to do with performance/hardware. Development scope is the big issue.
Here's some comparative stats:
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion -- 16 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind -- 6 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall -- 62 square miles
That's right.
But most of Daggerfall's world was procedurally/randomly generated.
I just don't see them going to that scope ever again. If they want to sculpt everything individually, then there's a flat zero percent chance.
I'm not going to argue which is better or worse. Both methods have their pros and cons. But in my opinion, a car would only work in a giant game world like Daggerfall's. And in all likelihood, we're never going to see that again.
i just finished playing daggerfall on monday. 62 square miles of empty nothingness between towns that all look the same filled with repeating buggy quests filled with npcs who all look the same. nothing outside of the main quest is even remotely interesting aside from maybe the daedric stuff and that shit like the rest of the game is just a buggy mess. (oh the wereboar cure quest was fun as hell with a gut punching twist i loved)
give me 6 square miles of actual content anyday. daggerfall has 36 hours playtime recorded and im done with it, morrowind, oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3/nv all have up to and over 200 hours.
so yes, thank god we're not gonna see a game world like daggerfall again. (i still had fun though with those 36 hours, shame they couldn't add more)
That's great for you but I found the random quests and interactions with random NPCs much more interesting than the main quest in Daggerfall. So many random situations (quests/NPCs) led to situations that are unrivaled by anything I experienced in my combined 900+ hours across Fallout 3, New Vegas, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I've shared anecdotes in the past. I'll see if I can find one of them later.
I don't think we'll ever get that kind of world again because Bethesda has adopted a different design policy. And their new design policy works! Skyrim was fantastic. I really loved Oblivion and Morrowind as well. Fallout 3 was kind of meh but I liked what they were going for. Regardless, I enjoy the new design philosophy. But I also really enjoyed what they attempted to do in Daggerfall. They fell short because of the unbelievable bugs, but Daggerfall had some characteristics that were just lost when they created Morrowind. There were a ton of improvements too so it rather balances out - but I absolutely loved the sprawling world of Daggerfall. I also love the world of Skyrim.
Remember: I'm not making a Daggerfall vs. Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim argument here. I'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other. I'm not even trying to argue that the world of one is better than the other. I'm arguing that we will never see a world as large as Daggerfall's again. Whether you think it's totally empty or not, landmass-wise (which is the relevant piece of this argument), it was gigantic. We will not see that in future TES games. I believe you and I and most others agree on that.
The only reason I started talking about this is because of the discussion on cars/vehicles. Unless the world IS as large as Daggerfalls, adding cars to the game would be a total disaster for so many reasons:
1) World is too small with too many walls/obstacles to necessitate or even support the use of a vehicle. I don't want vast stretches of emptiness in a ~10 square mile world filled to the brim with content.
2) Would there be other cars? Would raiders have them? Brotherhood of Steel? If not, why am I the only one with a car? If so, might as well just call it Fallout: Roadblasters.
In short, I'm not arguing that Daggerfall is better. I'm arguing that cars may work in a world of Daggerfall's size - which we will never see again - and not at all in a world of any post-Daggerfall Bethesda world's size. Just...no.
(Also no dual wielding please. Yeah, let's resurrect that argument too.)
I feel like a car would be awesome in Fallout IV but only if the game world is as big as Daggerfall, which is never going to happen. All the Bethesda worlds post-Daggerfall are just way too small for that kind it vehicle.
I'm hoping the next iteration (and I can only assume with the texa$ this franchise hauls in that there WILL be a next iteration despite the lack of news...) will be PC and next-gen consoles only, which presumably will allow more content and a larger world.
Larger world maybe but I wouldn't get my hopes up. There was a stark change in design philosophies between Daggerfall and Morrowind. Morrowind and post-Morrowind is waaaaay more scripted than Daggerfall, and way smaller as a result. When every character is scripted to some degree, you can only make your world so large. It really has nothing to do with performance/hardware. Development scope is the big issue.
Here's some comparative stats:
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion -- 16 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind -- 6 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall -- 62 square miles
That's right.
But most of Daggerfall's world was procedurally/randomly generated.
I just don't see them going to that scope ever again. If they want to sculpt everything individually, then there's a flat zero percent chance.
I'm not going to argue which is better or worse. Both methods have their pros and cons. But in my opinion, a car would only work in a giant game world like Daggerfall's. And in all likelihood, we're never going to see that again.
i just finished playing daggerfall on monday. 62 square miles of empty nothingness between towns that all look the same filled with repeating buggy quests filled with npcs who all look the same. nothing outside of the main quest is even remotely interesting aside from maybe the daedric stuff and that shit like the rest of the game is just a buggy mess. (oh the wereboar cure quest was fun as hell with a gut punching twist i loved)
give me 6 square miles of actual content anyday. daggerfall has 36 hours playtime recorded and im done with it, morrowind, oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3/nv all have up to and over 200 hours.
so yes, thank god we're not gonna see a game world like daggerfall again. (i still had fun though with those 36 hours, shame they couldn't add more)
That's great for you but I found the random quests and interactions with random NPCs much more interesting than the main quest in Daggerfall. So many random situations (quests/NPCs) led to situations that are unrivaled by anything I experienced in my combined 900+ hours across Fallout 3, New Vegas, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I've shared anecdotes in the past. I'll see if I can find one of them later.
there were like 5 unique or less quests outside the main in total with 5-6 other fetch quests that just kept repeating over and over and over forever. i had to check the wikies out to make sure it was correct. my fav quests were the ones where you are sent to kill X creature in random dungeon and spend 7 hours going through the same corridors of one of the 500 samey insanely stupidly large complex dungeons (to be fair they were not as bad as the castle dungeons oh my god) and never finding X creature at all after checking every nook and cranny.
I feel like a car would be awesome in Fallout IV but only if the game world is as big as Daggerfall, which is never going to happen. All the Bethesda worlds post-Daggerfall are just way too small for that kind it vehicle.
I'm hoping the next iteration (and I can only assume with the texa$ this franchise hauls in that there WILL be a next iteration despite the lack of news...) will be PC and next-gen consoles only, which presumably will allow more content and a larger world.
Larger world maybe but I wouldn't get my hopes up. There was a stark change in design philosophies between Daggerfall and Morrowind. Morrowind and post-Morrowind is waaaaay more scripted than Daggerfall, and way smaller as a result. When every character is scripted to some degree, you can only make your world so large. It really has nothing to do with performance/hardware. Development scope is the big issue.
Here's some comparative stats:
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion -- 16 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind -- 6 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall -- 62 square miles
That's right.
But most of Daggerfall's world was procedurally/randomly generated.
I just don't see them going to that scope ever again. If they want to sculpt everything individually, then there's a flat zero percent chance.
I'm not going to argue which is better or worse. Both methods have their pros and cons. But in my opinion, a car would only work in a giant game world like Daggerfall's. And in all likelihood, we're never going to see that again.
i just finished playing daggerfall on monday. 62 square miles of empty nothingness between towns that all look the same filled with repeating buggy quests filled with npcs who all look the same. nothing outside of the main quest is even remotely interesting aside from maybe the daedric stuff and that shit like the rest of the game is just a buggy mess. (oh the wereboar cure quest was fun as hell with a gut punching twist i loved)
give me 6 square miles of actual content anyday. daggerfall has 36 hours playtime recorded and im done with it, morrowind, oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3/nv all have up to and over 200 hours.
so yes, thank god we're not gonna see a game world like daggerfall again. (i still had fun though with those 36 hours, shame they couldn't add more)
That's great for you but I found the random quests and interactions with random NPCs much more interesting than the main quest in Daggerfall. So many random situations (quests/NPCs) led to situations that are unrivaled by anything I experienced in my combined 900+ hours across Fallout 3, New Vegas, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I've shared anecdotes in the past. I'll see if I can find one of them later.
I don't think we'll ever get that kind of world again because Bethesda has adopted a different design policy. And their new design policy works! Skyrim was fantastic. I really loved Oblivion and Morrowind as well. Fallout 3 was kind of meh but I liked what they were going for. Regardless, I enjoy the new design philosophy. But I also really enjoyed what they attempted to do in Daggerfall. They fell short because of the unbelievable bugs, but Daggerfall had some characteristics that were just lost when they created Morrowind. There were a ton of improvements too so it rather balances out - but I absolutely loved the sprawling world of Daggerfall. I also love the world of Skyrim.
Remember: I'm not making a Daggerfall vs. Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim argument here. I'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other. I'm not even trying to argue that the world of one is better than the other. I'm arguing that we will never see a world as large as Daggerfall's again. Whether you think it's totally empty or not, landmass-wise (which is the relevant piece of this argument), it was gigantic. We will not see that in future TES games. I believe you and I and most others agree on that.
The only reason I started talking about this is because of the discussion on cars/vehicles. Unless the world IS as large as Daggerfalls, adding cars to the game would be a total disaster for so many reasons:
1) World is too small with too many walls/obstacles to necessitate or even support the use of a vehicle. I don't want vast stretches of emptiness in a ~10 square mile world filled to the brim with content.
2) Would there be other cars? Would raiders have them? Brotherhood of Steel? If not, why am I the only one with a car? If so, might as well just call it Fallout: Roadblasters.
In short, I'm not arguing that Daggerfall is better. I'm arguing that cars may work in a world of Daggerfall's size - which we will never see again - and not at all in a world of any post-Daggerfall Bethesda world's size. Just...no.
(Also no dual wielding please. Yeah, let's resurrect that argument too.)
Skyrim feels like its fake emergent gameplay. Really the choices are which quests to take and sometimes a small decision at the end of them that usually makes only trivial difference. It's not so much a sandbox as a chose your own adventure. Fallout is in a similar box the choices generally just feel a little more impactful.
I'm playing it now and enjoying it a lot but I see it's limitations.
I feel like a car would be awesome in Fallout IV but only if the game world is as big as Daggerfall, which is never going to happen. All the Bethesda worlds post-Daggerfall are just way too small for that kind it vehicle.
I'm hoping the next iteration (and I can only assume with the texa$ this franchise hauls in that there WILL be a next iteration despite the lack of news...) will be PC and next-gen consoles only, which presumably will allow more content and a larger world.
Larger world maybe but I wouldn't get my hopes up. There was a stark change in design philosophies between Daggerfall and Morrowind. Morrowind and post-Morrowind is waaaaay more scripted than Daggerfall, and way smaller as a result. When every character is scripted to some degree, you can only make your world so large. It really has nothing to do with performance/hardware. Development scope is the big issue.
Here's some comparative stats:
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion -- 16 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind -- 6 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall -- 62 square miles
That's right.
But most of Daggerfall's world was procedurally/randomly generated.
I just don't see them going to that scope ever again. If they want to sculpt everything individually, then there's a flat zero percent chance.
I'm not going to argue which is better or worse. Both methods have their pros and cons. But in my opinion, a car would only work in a giant game world like Daggerfall's. And in all likelihood, we're never going to see that again.
i just finished playing daggerfall on monday. 62 square miles of empty nothingness between towns that all look the same filled with repeating buggy quests filled with npcs who all look the same. nothing outside of the main quest is even remotely interesting aside from maybe the daedric stuff and that shit like the rest of the game is just a buggy mess. (oh the wereboar cure quest was fun as hell with a gut punching twist i loved)
give me 6 square miles of actual content anyday. daggerfall has 36 hours playtime recorded and im done with it, morrowind, oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3/nv all have up to and over 200 hours.
so yes, thank god we're not gonna see a game world like daggerfall again. (i still had fun though with those 36 hours, shame they couldn't add more)
That's great for you but I found the random quests and interactions with random NPCs much more interesting than the main quest in Daggerfall. So many random situations (quests/NPCs) led to situations that are unrivaled by anything I experienced in my combined 900+ hours across Fallout 3, New Vegas, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I've shared anecdotes in the past. I'll see if I can find one of them later.
there were like 5 unique or less quests outside the main in total with 5-6 other fetch quests that just kept repeating over and over and over forever. i had to check the wikies out to make sure it was correct. my fav quests were the ones where you are sent to kill X creature in random dungeon and spend 7 hours going through the same corridors of one of the 500 samey insanely stupidly large complex dungeons (to be fair they were not as bad as the castle dungeons oh my god) and never finding X creature at all after checking every nook and cranny.
OK. I'm not discounting your opinion, but I liked Daggerfall and that's not going to retroactively change. It was definitely a very flawed game, but I liked it regardless. I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm just saying that I did. And it's not really why I posted about Daggerfall in the first place. Again, my whole point is about landmass. The landmass of Daggerfall is measurably, significantly larger than any of the other games. *shrug*
Regarding quests: The random quests may not have had a lot of archetypes to pull from, but the situations you could get into still felt very unique.
For instance, my favorite anecdote (without looking it up):
I got a quest where the questgiver claimed that a Shopkeeper had stolen a weapon from him. He paid me to go and retrieve it for him. I accepted and went to the shop after hours. The sword was propped up (albeit in 2D) against the side of the shopkeeper's counter. I examined the sword and it was awesome. It was MUCH better than the crap I was already using. So...I decided to keep it. A couple of days later a random courier found me in a city and gave me a letter from the original questgiver saying he'd heard I took the sword from the shopkeeper and was looking forward to getting it back via me. I ignored it. A day later, the shopkeeper sent a letter via courier saying he found out I stole the sword from him and demanded it back. Ignored! Less than a week later, I get a letter from the questgiver telling me I was going to be sorry for not completing the quest and giving him the sword. A day later I got a similar letter from the shopkeeper. Suddenly, I have assassins sent by BOTH the questgiver and the shopkeeper hunting me down over this sword.
I don't know how to explain it but I still remember that. I remember a smattering of things from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim too but nothing was as memorable as a few of my Daggerfall anecdotes.
The game was definitely a buggy mess. I often call it "the best game that was simultaneously the most buggy game I ever played."
So, it was buggy. It was flawed. The level up system was kind of dinky. There were tons of issues with it. But I loved it anyway.
I'm not saying I'd take that kind of mess over the polish of Skyrim ever again. But it was a great game nonetheless, in my opinion.
And I feel like some things are missing from the later games that Daggerfall had:
- Sprawl, especially with regard to NPC density
- Scale, interiors and exteriors as well as the entire world
- More randomness to non-story quests
I actually feel like scale is the biggest one - especially interiors - and it's gotten smaller and smaller since then. I can't recall one dungeon in Skyrim that felt that large to me. A lot of dungeons will loop around and around and around over the same area so they take awhile to get through, but not many of them actually feel cavernous. The one dungeon that connects to like ten others is pretty much the only one I can recall right now. Even the Dwemer ruins felt tiny compared to what I remember of Morrowind and Oblivion.
Oh well.
Again, I like the later games. But Daggerfall was good too.
I feel like a car would be awesome in Fallout IV but only if the game world is as big as Daggerfall, which is never going to happen. All the Bethesda worlds post-Daggerfall are just way too small for that kind it vehicle.
I'm hoping the next iteration (and I can only assume with the texa$ this franchise hauls in that there WILL be a next iteration despite the lack of news...) will be PC and next-gen consoles only, which presumably will allow more content and a larger world.
Larger world maybe but I wouldn't get my hopes up. There was a stark change in design philosophies between Daggerfall and Morrowind. Morrowind and post-Morrowind is waaaaay more scripted than Daggerfall, and way smaller as a result. When every character is scripted to some degree, you can only make your world so large. It really has nothing to do with performance/hardware. Development scope is the big issue.
Here's some comparative stats:
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion -- 16 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind -- 6 square miles
- The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall -- 62 square miles
That's right.
But most of Daggerfall's world was procedurally/randomly generated.
I just don't see them going to that scope ever again. If they want to sculpt everything individually, then there's a flat zero percent chance.
I'm not going to argue which is better or worse. Both methods have their pros and cons. But in my opinion, a car would only work in a giant game world like Daggerfall's. And in all likelihood, we're never going to see that again.
i just finished playing daggerfall on monday. 62 square miles of empty nothingness between towns that all look the same filled with repeating buggy quests filled with npcs who all look the same. nothing outside of the main quest is even remotely interesting aside from maybe the daedric stuff and that shit like the rest of the game is just a buggy mess. (oh the wereboar cure quest was fun as hell with a gut punching twist i loved)
give me 6 square miles of actual content anyday. daggerfall has 36 hours playtime recorded and im done with it, morrowind, oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3/nv all have up to and over 200 hours.
so yes, thank god we're not gonna see a game world like daggerfall again. (i still had fun though with those 36 hours, shame they couldn't add more)
That's great for you but I found the random quests and interactions with random NPCs much more interesting than the main quest in Daggerfall. So many random situations (quests/NPCs) led to situations that are unrivaled by anything I experienced in my combined 900+ hours across Fallout 3, New Vegas, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I've shared anecdotes in the past. I'll see if I can find one of them later.
I don't think we'll ever get that kind of world again because Bethesda has adopted a different design policy. And their new design policy works! Skyrim was fantastic. I really loved Oblivion and Morrowind as well. Fallout 3 was kind of meh but I liked what they were going for. Regardless, I enjoy the new design philosophy. But I also really enjoyed what they attempted to do in Daggerfall. They fell short because of the unbelievable bugs, but Daggerfall had some characteristics that were just lost when they created Morrowind. There were a ton of improvements too so it rather balances out - but I absolutely loved the sprawling world of Daggerfall. I also love the world of Skyrim.
Remember: I'm not making a Daggerfall vs. Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim argument here. I'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other. I'm not even trying to argue that the world of one is better than the other. I'm arguing that we will never see a world as large as Daggerfall's again. Whether you think it's totally empty or not, landmass-wise (which is the relevant piece of this argument), it was gigantic. We will not see that in future TES games. I believe you and I and most others agree on that.
The only reason I started talking about this is because of the discussion on cars/vehicles. Unless the world IS as large as Daggerfalls, adding cars to the game would be a total disaster for so many reasons:
1) World is too small with too many walls/obstacles to necessitate or even support the use of a vehicle. I don't want vast stretches of emptiness in a ~10 square mile world filled to the brim with content.
2) Would there be other cars? Would raiders have them? Brotherhood of Steel? If not, why am I the only one with a car? If so, might as well just call it Fallout: Roadblasters.
In short, I'm not arguing that Daggerfall is better. I'm arguing that cars may work in a world of Daggerfall's size - which we will never see again - and not at all in a world of any post-Daggerfall Bethesda world's size. Just...no.
(Also no dual wielding please. Yeah, let's resurrect that argument too.)
Skyrim feels like its fake emergent gameplay. Really the choices are which quests to take and sometimes a small decision at the end of them that usually makes only trivial difference. It's not so much a sandbox as a chose your own adventure. Fallout is in a similar box the choices generally just feel a little more impactful.
I'm playing it now and enjoying it a lot but I see it's limitations.
I like Skyrim a great deal - I think it's the best one since Daggerfall and probably even better than Daggerfall - but I agree with you. I feel like many of the quest choices are of the "choose your reward" variety and that's about it.
The Pitt definitely had the hardest moral decision in the game for me.
Was hoping New Vegas would bring some more of that "oh my god, I can't believe they convinced me to side with a slaver, I hate myself" feeling with Caesar's Legion but the Legion are pretty iredeemable. Theres no end goal they're working towards that doesn't turn mankind into barbaric monsters.
They could have tried to make Caesar try and convince the PC the horror and slavery was only temporary, only a necessity until the land was whole again
but really, even if he wasn't dying they wouldn't accomplish that in his lifetime
Ashur's goals seemed so attainable, and if they were remotely successful other groups like the DC brotherhood might carry the torch
there's no future to the legion, and Caesar is a madman, and I kind of like that. Not every bad guy needs a silver lining. The NCR has plenty of moral ambiguity
They took too much out of the Legion's lore. The original concept for the Legion from Van Buren was much more complex and interesting.
The general Legion citizenry were supposed to be more skilled and educated. Women were supposed to be part of a priesthood tasked with educating the populace and spreading Caesar's propaganda. They weren't supposed to be Luddites. Their philosophy was more about not being too dependent on technology but they still used it. The most brutal parts of the Legion were for raiders and the more violent tribals. Since the Legion absorbs so many violent raiders and tribes, they couldn't really indoctrinate them all, so they basically just redirect the violence and savagery of those raiders into serving the Legion's expansionist goals.
Yeah, Van Buren's Legion were way cooler. I remember concept art of chariots pulled by car engines and stuff that looked totally wicked. Pity they were made into try hard nonsense.
To elaborate, the orignial Legion, as I recall, was about establishing order using a system that worked, IE Rome, instead of a Luddite band of football playing rapists. If it had been that in New Vegas, it would've wonderfully contrastred with the NCR's democracy and House's whateverthefuck.
Like, people complain about the Enclave in 3 being super blatantly evil, but they weren't cartoon Roman rapists.
To elaborate, the orignial Legion, as I recall, was about establishing order using a system that worked, IE Rome, instead of a Luddite band of football playing rapists. If it had been that in New Vegas, it would've wonderfully contrastred with the NCR's democracy and House's whateverthefuck.
Like, people complain about the Enclave in 3 being super blatantly evil, but they weren't cartoon Roman rapists.
Yeah, I mean..I'm glad we got at least something from Van Buren, but the Legion that we got is really meh.
But, then again, everything else in New Vegas was so astonishingly spectacular that its easily forgiven.
I remember when I first heard the Legion would be a major faction, I figured they would just be the gang that controls Vegas from the Fallout equivalent of Caesar's Palace.
I'm not sure how a compressed time frame equals super shitty writing choices.
Well, a lot of times, material has to be cut, not because it hasn't been written, but because implementing them technically/visually is impossible. Or the ending of a game has to be trimmed down, which often happens in RPGs. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is the most recent example that comes to mind, with a very rapid end-game with a lot of plot holes, and a whole bunch of areas near the end chopped out.
That being said, the differences in the Legion people are discussing don't seem like they'd be like that. Much of it seems like it'd be incorporated into the initial creation of the Legion and much of Caesar's dialogue, which presumably is recorded rather early. I dunno.
If anything, I think I'd have preferred the Legion being a more promising AND flawed option. Because there are 4 choices available to the player, I think that's more interesting. In the Pitt, I didn't really like either choice available to me, and it felt a little more artificial. As it is, in NV, it seems very difficult to choose the Legion on any sort of moral reasoning, especially given that we know of the fall of the Roman empire.
My trouble is that the Legion is cheap. They're literally cannibal rapists. They're misogynist homophobes. They're enslaving conquerors. They're luddites. They're basically written as Lord of the Rings orcs blended with Reavers. They aren't interesting. So it really boils down to NCR, anarchy, or House, and the plot leans pretty heavy to the anarchy ending, at least in my eyes.
If you want an absolute ruler who has an ends justify the means mindset, that's House
after all House is credibly the best bet to restore humanity to an era of high technology, even if he has absolutely no care for what injustices go on under him as long as the trains run on time and his word will be LAW backed by an army of ruthless killing machines
I do, however, want them to rip off the midwestern brotherhood of steel from Fallout: BOS (the PC not the xbox one). The midwestern brotherhood recruits and expands, and towns that offer to join become both subjects and citizens. They're able to send their citizens to boot camp to become knights or scribes. They are despotic, they use prisoners as slave labor (often worked to death), but they put down raiders with ruthless efficiency and by expanding their ranks and educating initiates they create a real plausible future. They also grant mutants and ghouls all the rights and protections under their laws as regular humans
There's the groundwork for "Legion as viable society" laid in some of the deep backstory, but yes, they're basically post-apocalyptic ISIS as envisioned by a disgruntled Classical history professor.
There's the groundwork for "Legion as viable society" laid in some of the deep backstory, but yes, they're basically post-apocalyptic ISIS as envisioned by a disgruntled Classical history professor.
yes this is an accurate assessment
ISIS has as much future establishing a caliphate as the Legion has building a new Rome in the Fallout universe, which is to say, none
but it won't stop them from tearing across the land and murdering lots of people
There's the groundwork for "Legion as viable society" laid in some of the deep backstory, but yes, they're basically post-apocalyptic ISIS as envisioned by a disgruntled Classical history professor.
yes this is an accurate assessment
ISIS has as much future establishing a caliphate as the Legion has building a new Rome in the Fallout universe, which is to say, none
but it won't stop them from tearing across the land and murdering lots of people
Except the Legion has carved out a very large and stable empire in the Midwest.
It was only the poor choice of smashing heads against a nation as big and as powerful as them that leads to their downfall.
There's the groundwork for "Legion as viable society" laid in some of the deep backstory, but yes, they're basically post-apocalyptic ISIS as envisioned by a disgruntled Classical history professor.
yes this is an accurate assessment
ISIS has as much future establishing a caliphate as the Legion has building a new Rome in the Fallout universe, which is to say, none
but it won't stop them from tearing across the land and murdering lots of people
Except the Legion has carved out a very large and stable empire in the Midwest.
It was only the poor choice of smashing heads against a nation as big and as powerful as them that leads to their downfall.
It was not stable. It was one sparked rebellion from collapsing in on itself.
It's interesting how they put a ton of details in some of the minor factions, they even put in a large corn field and an ethanol factory in the Boomers base to explain where they get fuel for their bombs, but didn't really bother to flesh out the Legion.
The Legion just feels really slapped together. Honestly, I wish the Legion's role as evil faction was handled by the Brotherhood of Steel. NCR vs BoS vs House would've been way more interesting.
Yeah the main reason the NCR and the BoS are at odds is because they more or less eliminated the common foe that was the Enclave, and NCR being expansionist dicks turned on the BoS for all their shinies.
The fact that a lot of the Old World stuff in the Mojave is mostly intact thank's to House makes the whole area a treasure trove for the Brotherhood. I'm surprised more of them didn't swarm the place. Then again, given how bad Elijah screwed the pooch there...
Yeah the main reason the NCR and the BoS are at odds is because they more or less eliminated the common foe that was the Enclave, and NCR being expansionist dicks turned on the BoS for all their shinies.
and the NCR thinks they're now advanced enough for some of the sweet prewar tech the BoS insists on hoarding.
There's the groundwork for "Legion as viable society" laid in some of the deep backstory, but yes, they're basically post-apocalyptic ISIS as envisioned by a disgruntled Classical history professor.
yes this is an accurate assessment
ISIS has as much future establishing a caliphate as the Legion has building a new Rome in the Fallout universe, which is to say, none
but it won't stop them from tearing across the land and murdering lots of people
Except the Legion has carved out a very large and stable empire in the Midwest.
It was only the poor choice of smashing heads against a nation as big and as powerful as them that leads to their downfall.
I thought Caesar had basically built an empire in New Mexico and Colorado going west out of tribes after he had been captured during work as a Follower of the Apocalypse and dragged out there. I don't recall anything about reaching the Midwest.
The fact that a lot of the Old World stuff in the Mojave is mostly intact thank's to House makes the whole area a treasure trove for the Brotherhood. I'm surprised more of them didn't swarm the place. Then again, given how bad Elijah screwed the pooch there...
They did, they were just beaten up off screen before NV happened
The fact that a lot of the Old World stuff in the Mojave is mostly intact thank's to House makes the whole area a treasure trove for the Brotherhood. I'm surprised more of them didn't swarm the place. Then again, given how bad Elijah screwed the pooch there...
They did, they were just beaten up off screen before NV happened
I mean, you'd think they'd all have gone down to the Mojave instead of just one chapter.
IIRC, that' all that's left of the west coast BoS. Obviously they don't have communication with the goody too-shoes BoS-in name only people from bethesda's games, and the cannonicity of the midwest BoS is still kind of in question
There's the groundwork for "Legion as viable society" laid in some of the deep backstory, but yes, they're basically post-apocalyptic ISIS as envisioned by a disgruntled Classical history professor.
yes this is an accurate assessment
ISIS has as much future establishing a caliphate as the Legion has building a new Rome in the Fallout universe, which is to say, none
but it won't stop them from tearing across the land and murdering lots of people
Except the Legion has carved out a very large and stable empire in the Midwest.
It was only the poor choice of smashing heads against a nation as big and as powerful as them that leads to their downfall.
I thought Caesar had basically built an empire in New Mexico and Colorado going west out of tribes after he had been captured during work as a Follower of the Apocalypse and dragged out there. I don't recall anything about reaching the Midwest.
Yeah that's a mistake I seem to keep making geographically speaking.
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They could have tried to make Caesar try and convince the PC the horror and slavery was only temporary, only a necessity until the land was whole again
but really, even if he wasn't dying they wouldn't accomplish that in his lifetime
Ashur's goals seemed so attainable, and if they were remotely successful other groups like the DC brotherhood might carry the torch
there's no future to the legion, and Caesar is a madman, and I kind of like that. Not every bad guy needs a silver lining. The NCR has plenty of moral ambiguity
i just finished playing daggerfall on monday. 62 square miles of empty nothingness between towns that all look the same filled with repeating buggy quests filled with npcs who all look the same. nothing outside of the main quest is even remotely interesting aside from maybe the daedric stuff and that shit like the rest of the game is just a buggy mess. (oh the wereboar cure quest was fun as hell with a gut punching twist i loved)
give me 6 square miles of actual content anyday. daggerfall has 36 hours playtime recorded and im done with it, morrowind, oblivion, skyrim, fallout 3/nv all have up to and over 200 hours.
so yes, thank god we're not gonna see a game world like daggerfall again. (i still had fun though with those 36 hours, shame they couldn't add more)
On the other side of this is how I felt.
I was glad and found it very refreshing that they didn't bend over backwards to make the "evil" option a chalky flavor of evil-but-only-in-a-sort-of-cool-way-that-is-still-really-palatable-to-gamers.
<40k sperg> It kind of reminds me of when the Emperor cloistered himself away to work on his golden throne and the webway of mankind and kept the whole thing shtum from absolutely everyone, including his primarch sons, which was ultimately his undoing when it engendered discord that led to the Horus heresy </40k sperg>
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That's great for you but I found the random quests and interactions with random NPCs much more interesting than the main quest in Daggerfall. So many random situations (quests/NPCs) led to situations that are unrivaled by anything I experienced in my combined 900+ hours across Fallout 3, New Vegas, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I've shared anecdotes in the past. I'll see if I can find one of them later.
I don't think we'll ever get that kind of world again because Bethesda has adopted a different design policy. And their new design policy works! Skyrim was fantastic. I really loved Oblivion and Morrowind as well. Fallout 3 was kind of meh but I liked what they were going for. Regardless, I enjoy the new design philosophy. But I also really enjoyed what they attempted to do in Daggerfall. They fell short because of the unbelievable bugs, but Daggerfall had some characteristics that were just lost when they created Morrowind. There were a ton of improvements too so it rather balances out - but I absolutely loved the sprawling world of Daggerfall. I also love the world of Skyrim.
Remember: I'm not making a Daggerfall vs. Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim argument here. I'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other. I'm not even trying to argue that the world of one is better than the other. I'm arguing that we will never see a world as large as Daggerfall's again. Whether you think it's totally empty or not, landmass-wise (which is the relevant piece of this argument), it was gigantic. We will not see that in future TES games. I believe you and I and most others agree on that.
The only reason I started talking about this is because of the discussion on cars/vehicles. Unless the world IS as large as Daggerfalls, adding cars to the game would be a total disaster for so many reasons:
1) World is too small with too many walls/obstacles to necessitate or even support the use of a vehicle. I don't want vast stretches of emptiness in a ~10 square mile world filled to the brim with content.
2) Would there be other cars? Would raiders have them? Brotherhood of Steel? If not, why am I the only one with a car? If so, might as well just call it Fallout: Roadblasters.
In short, I'm not arguing that Daggerfall is better. I'm arguing that cars may work in a world of Daggerfall's size - which we will never see again - and not at all in a world of any post-Daggerfall Bethesda world's size. Just...no.
(Also no dual wielding please. Yeah, let's resurrect that argument too.)
there were like 5 unique or less quests outside the main in total with 5-6 other fetch quests that just kept repeating over and over and over forever. i had to check the wikies out to make sure it was correct. my fav quests were the ones where you are sent to kill X creature in random dungeon and spend 7 hours going through the same corridors of one of the 500 samey insanely stupidly large complex dungeons (to be fair they were not as bad as the castle dungeons oh my god) and never finding X creature at all after checking every nook and cranny.
Skyrim feels like its fake emergent gameplay. Really the choices are which quests to take and sometimes a small decision at the end of them that usually makes only trivial difference. It's not so much a sandbox as a chose your own adventure. Fallout is in a similar box the choices generally just feel a little more impactful.
I'm playing it now and enjoying it a lot but I see it's limitations.
OK. I'm not discounting your opinion, but I liked Daggerfall and that's not going to retroactively change. It was definitely a very flawed game, but I liked it regardless. I'm not saying you have to like it. I'm just saying that I did. And it's not really why I posted about Daggerfall in the first place. Again, my whole point is about landmass. The landmass of Daggerfall is measurably, significantly larger than any of the other games. *shrug*
Regarding quests: The random quests may not have had a lot of archetypes to pull from, but the situations you could get into still felt very unique.
For instance, my favorite anecdote (without looking it up):
I got a quest where the questgiver claimed that a Shopkeeper had stolen a weapon from him. He paid me to go and retrieve it for him. I accepted and went to the shop after hours. The sword was propped up (albeit in 2D) against the side of the shopkeeper's counter. I examined the sword and it was awesome. It was MUCH better than the crap I was already using. So...I decided to keep it. A couple of days later a random courier found me in a city and gave me a letter from the original questgiver saying he'd heard I took the sword from the shopkeeper and was looking forward to getting it back via me. I ignored it. A day later, the shopkeeper sent a letter via courier saying he found out I stole the sword from him and demanded it back. Ignored! Less than a week later, I get a letter from the questgiver telling me I was going to be sorry for not completing the quest and giving him the sword. A day later I got a similar letter from the shopkeeper. Suddenly, I have assassins sent by BOTH the questgiver and the shopkeeper hunting me down over this sword.
I don't know how to explain it but I still remember that. I remember a smattering of things from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim too but nothing was as memorable as a few of my Daggerfall anecdotes.
The game was definitely a buggy mess. I often call it "the best game that was simultaneously the most buggy game I ever played."
So, it was buggy. It was flawed. The level up system was kind of dinky. There were tons of issues with it. But I loved it anyway.
I'm not saying I'd take that kind of mess over the polish of Skyrim ever again. But it was a great game nonetheless, in my opinion.
And I feel like some things are missing from the later games that Daggerfall had:
- Sprawl, especially with regard to NPC density
- Scale, interiors and exteriors as well as the entire world
- More randomness to non-story quests
I actually feel like scale is the biggest one - especially interiors - and it's gotten smaller and smaller since then. I can't recall one dungeon in Skyrim that felt that large to me. A lot of dungeons will loop around and around and around over the same area so they take awhile to get through, but not many of them actually feel cavernous. The one dungeon that connects to like ten others is pretty much the only one I can recall right now. Even the Dwemer ruins felt tiny compared to what I remember of Morrowind and Oblivion.
Oh well.
Again, I like the later games. But Daggerfall was good too.
I like Skyrim a great deal - I think it's the best one since Daggerfall and probably even better than Daggerfall - but I agree with you. I feel like many of the quest choices are of the "choose your reward" variety and that's about it.
They took too much out of the Legion's lore. The original concept for the Legion from Van Buren was much more complex and interesting.
The general Legion citizenry were supposed to be more skilled and educated. Women were supposed to be part of a priesthood tasked with educating the populace and spreading Caesar's propaganda. They weren't supposed to be Luddites. Their philosophy was more about not being too dependent on technology but they still used it. The most brutal parts of the Legion were for raiders and the more violent tribals. Since the Legion absorbs so many violent raiders and tribes, they couldn't really indoctrinate them all, so they basically just redirect the violence and savagery of those raiders into serving the Legion's expansionist goals.
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Like, people complain about the Enclave in 3 being super blatantly evil, but they weren't cartoon Roman rapists.
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Yeah, I mean..I'm glad we got at least something from Van Buren, but the Legion that we got is really meh.
But, then again, everything else in New Vegas was so astonishingly spectacular that its easily forgiven.
So that could be a big reason for some of the short comings.
edit
Jesus Christ, tomorrow will mark the 4th anniversary of New Vegas's release. Its insane for a game to be this relevant and this alive for this long.
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Well, a lot of times, material has to be cut, not because it hasn't been written, but because implementing them technically/visually is impossible. Or the ending of a game has to be trimmed down, which often happens in RPGs. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is the most recent example that comes to mind, with a very rapid end-game with a lot of plot holes, and a whole bunch of areas near the end chopped out.
That being said, the differences in the Legion people are discussing don't seem like they'd be like that. Much of it seems like it'd be incorporated into the initial creation of the Legion and much of Caesar's dialogue, which presumably is recorded rather early. I dunno.
If anything, I think I'd have preferred the Legion being a more promising AND flawed option. Because there are 4 choices available to the player, I think that's more interesting. In the Pitt, I didn't really like either choice available to me, and it felt a little more artificial. As it is, in NV, it seems very difficult to choose the Legion on any sort of moral reasoning, especially given that we know of the fall of the Roman empire.
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If you want an absolute ruler who has an ends justify the means mindset, that's House
after all House is credibly the best bet to restore humanity to an era of high technology, even if he has absolutely no care for what injustices go on under him as long as the trains run on time and his word will be LAW backed by an army of ruthless killing machines
I do, however, want them to rip off the midwestern brotherhood of steel from Fallout: BOS (the PC not the xbox one). The midwestern brotherhood recruits and expands, and towns that offer to join become both subjects and citizens. They're able to send their citizens to boot camp to become knights or scribes. They are despotic, they use prisoners as slave labor (often worked to death), but they put down raiders with ruthless efficiency and by expanding their ranks and educating initiates they create a real plausible future. They also grant mutants and ghouls all the rights and protections under their laws as regular humans
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
ISIS has as much future establishing a caliphate as the Legion has building a new Rome in the Fallout universe, which is to say, none
but it won't stop them from tearing across the land and murdering lots of people
It makes more sense for the Brotherhood to be opposed by the Enclave, though.
Except the Legion has carved out a very large and stable empire in the Midwest.
It was only the poor choice of smashing heads against a nation as big and as powerful as them that leads to their downfall.
It was not stable. It was one sparked rebellion from collapsing in on itself.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
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and the NCR thinks they're now advanced enough for some of the sweet prewar tech the BoS insists on hoarding.
I thought Caesar had basically built an empire in New Mexico and Colorado going west out of tribes after he had been captured during work as a Follower of the Apocalypse and dragged out there. I don't recall anything about reaching the Midwest.
They did, they were just beaten up off screen before NV happened
I mean, you'd think they'd all have gone down to the Mojave instead of just one chapter.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Yeah that's a mistake I seem to keep making geographically speaking.