Even broader [insert race, gender, identity here] representation in Marvel films will come. It need not be unduly "forced" to happen to satisfy some grander expectation. And it need not considered ignored because it hasn't happened to any particular person's satisfaction.
No one in charge of these films is sitting in a darkened room rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over the success of "straight white men on film."
Proper representation of "minorities" matters now more than ever before. And if they (or anyone) get it wrong, the backlash will ALWAYS be worse than if they took the time to give it well deserved and respectful consideration. We live in a world where missteps in those areas can cause considerable damage, even with the best of intentions. So give it time and have faith that they are working to give us a great Capt. Marvel, Black Panther, etc... We know it's in development and we know that they want to do them with all the passion and honor we've come to recognize in their efforts.
We have Luke Cage & Jessica Jones definitively expected soon as well. It won't be long.
One other point, and as example I'll use Captain America. First Avenger had both strong female and black roles. Winter Soldier had both strong female & black roles.
If the stories are good, and the representations are heroic (AND inoffensive)... in the end, who cares if the strong minority had the title role for it?
Sooner or later they will.
All of those who believe in human equality should consider that in the scope of all of this there was a time not so long ago when NONE of what we have on film from Marvel would have been acceptable in our society. That time is nothing to be proud of... but where we are now, and certainly where we are going IS.
I just find many accusations that it's not being done "well enough" myopically dismissive of the fact that it is being done at all, and in ways that are positive and moving the industry and society forward.
We want more, and we WILL get it.
But let's also all appreciate some of what has been achieved in the effort and look forward to the promise of what's to come.
Because it IS coming, and those standing in the way of it are fewer in number with every day that passes.
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Even broader [insert race, gender, identity here] representation in Marvel films will come. It need not be unduly "forced" to happen to satisfy some grander expectation. And it need not considered ignored because it hasn't happened to any particular person's satisfaction.
No one in charge of these films is sitting in a darkened room rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over the success of "straight white men on film."
Proper representation of "minorities" matters now more than ever before. And if they (or anyone) get it wrong, the backlash will ALWAYS be worse than if they took the time to give it well deserved and respectful consideration. We live in a world where missteps in those areas can cause considerable damage, even with the best of intentions. So give it time and have faith that they are working to give us a great Capt. Marvel, Black Panther, etc... We know it's in development and we know that they want to do them with all the passion and honor we've come to recognize in their efforts.
We have Luke Cage & Jessica Jones definitively expected soon as well. It won't be long.
One other point, and as example I'll use Captain America. First Avenger had both strong female and black roles. Winter Soldier had both strong female & black roles.
If the stories are good, and the representations are heroic (AND inoffensive)... in the end, who cares if the strong minority had the title role for it?
Sooner or later they will.
All of those who believe in human equality should consider that in the scope of all of this there was a time not so long ago when NONE of what we have on film from Marvel would have been acceptable in our society. That time is nothing to be proud of... but where we are now, and certainly where we are going IS.
I just find many accusations that it's not being done "well enough" myopically dismissive of the fact that it is being done at all, and in ways that are positive and moving the industry and society forward.
We want more, and we WILL get it.
But let's also all appreciate some of what has been achieved in the effort and look forward to the promise of what's to come.
Because it IS coming, and those standing in the way of it are fewer in number with every day that passes.
Having nick fury be his ultimate version I think should at least calm some of the more militant voices he's a great character and really well done.
No one in charge of these films is sitting in a darkened room rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over the success of "straight white men on film."
Nobody is suggesting that and in fact I specifically said otherwise several times.
The idea of a minority or female led action movie has been notoriously hard to sell to studios. It comes out less as someone saying "yesss only straight white men on the big screen", and more like "I will pass on this female/minority led action movie if there isn't at least one strong male counterpart".
Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Even broader [insert race, gender, identity here] representation in Marvel films will come. It need not be unduly "forced" to happen to satisfy some grander expectation. And it need not considered ignored because it hasn't happened to any particular person's satisfaction.
Why is it when a movie with a minority or female lead movie it's forced, but when they're in a supporting role it's not? Was Black Widow's role in Winter Soldier forced? Was Peggy's? If they can do those right, why can't they do it with those kinds of characters as movie leads? Marvel isn't stupid, it knows how to make excellent movies with strong female and minority characters. Yet we're left with zero examples when it comes to putting them into movie leads. As I said, the movie division needs to pay attention to the tv division on this subject. We know they're willing to do something about it without any excuses.
No one in charge of these films is sitting in a darkened room rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over the success of "straight white men on film."
That's good since no one in this thread thought they were.
Proper representation of "minorities" matters now more than ever before. And if they (or anyone) get it wrong, the backlash will ALWAYS be worse than if they took the time to give it well deserved and respectful consideration. We live in a world where missteps in those areas can cause considerable damage, even with the best of intentions. So give it time and have faith that they are working to give us a great Capt. Marvel, Black Panther, etc... We know it's in development and we know that they want to do them with all the passion and honor we've come to recognize in their efforts.
That's the problem, they have had more than enough time for this. They should have had at least one movie about a minority or female lead by now but nope. Still batting a zero. Phase 2 was when they should have moved and they blinked. Now we have to wait for Phase 3 and we don't have any definite evidence a movie with a minority or female lead is on the fast track. Ant-Man and Strange have had movement, even rumors, for years - we have absolutely nothing on movies like Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Forgive me for being skeptical.
We have Luke Cage & Jessica Jones definitively expected soon as well. It won't be long.
That's the tv division, the discussion is about the movie division.
One other point, and as example I'll use Captain America. First Avenger had both strong female and black roles. Winter Soldier had both strong female & black roles.
If the stories are good, and the representations are heroic (AND inoffensive)... in the end, who cares if the strong minority had the title role for it?
Sooner or later they will.
All of those who believe in human equality should consider that in the scope of all of this there was a time not so long ago when NONE of what we have on film from Marvel would have been acceptable in our society. That time is nothing to be proud of... but where we are now, and certainly where we are going IS.
People do care about this. It's a subject worthy to be critical of Marvel. Sure they've done great movies with supporting characters that are minorities and female characters but it's ridiculous how long this is taking. It appears like this isn't a big a priority to solve for Marvel, especially with lead characters who can be given to actors that aren't white - like Stephen Strange, who Joaquin Phoenix was in negotiations to play. Even the James Bond franchise publicly offered roles to minority actors, we don't know if Marvel is doing that with their movies. Ant-man has only one minority cast in a movie filled with white people.
I just find many accusations that it's not being done "well enough" myopically dismissive of the fact that it is being done at all, and in ways that are positive and moving the industry and society forward.
It's appreciated but they past that stage with Phase 1.
We want more, and we WILL get it.
But let's also all appreciate some of what has been achieved in the effort and look forward to the promise of what's to come.
Because it IS coming, and those standing in the way of it are fewer in number with every day that passes.
I'd believe what your saying more if we had proof to back up that Marvel does consider this a huge priority and it is, in the tv division. It's the movie division whose being too conservative with the subject. This will only happen when Marvel thinks it's a main priority and I haven't got much evidence that this is the case. If it was noticeable that this is what they're doing we wouldn't be having this discussion but here we are.
Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
Marvel's got a lot of them.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
I really want them to make a movie with a female or minority if it makes sense....I'd hate for them to throw one out there just to check a box.
With that said, Captain Marvel, Black Widow, and She-Hulk would all make sense with what they've build at this point. Black Panther is one that people have been asking for forever too. Doctor Strange would probably be one of the easiest characters to make a minority without making comic guys freak out. Personally I really want Falcon or Rhodie get their own movie before Black Panther, but that's just because I find BP super boring.
I wouldn't say BW was a major character in IM2. She was only slightly more prominent than Tony's chauffeur.
She's definitely interesting enough to get her own film, though. Her implied backstory is compelling and she's fun to watch. Renner's Hawkeye is boring as fuck, though. I'm not a big Renner fan anyway, but if I was just going on his portrayal in the movies I would have no interest in watching him for two hours.
Gonna be straight here.
If you'd told me The Bourne Legacy was a Hawkeye origin, I'd believe you.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I really want them to make a movie with a female or minority if it makes sense....I'd hate for them to throw one out there just to check a box.
Except all their movies are there for box checking for setting up specific events. Phase 1 was setting up every Avenger and Tesseract. Phase 2 is about discovering new Infinite Stones, Winter Soldier
was there to destroy SHIELD, be HYDA's rebirth and possibly the algorithism could be setting up Ultron.
Guardians was setting up
Thanos and open up the MCU cosmic universe.
Dr. Strange is going to explore the MCU's magical side.
@hippofant
I thought you were going to post one of the two worst cases of Marvel's misplays with female characters, but instead you post an example from...green lantern? You know he's DC right?
Let me help you out.
Death of Gwen Stacey
Rape of Ms Marvel.
There, you've got the two best cases of Marvel mishandling female characters. However, both happened several decades ago under completely different writers and creative teams.
Um. The webpage is a link to a list of all (many) of the women who'd been mutilated or whatnot in some way in comics, initially begun by Gail Simone back in the... I want to say late 90s. It's called Women in Refrigerators because that was just one of the most ridiculous examples they had. Emphasis on the "one of the" because there were a lot of similarly insane ones.
Marvel's not perfect with female characters in the movies, which is why they need to keep on improving.... Fox and WB do have one advantage over Marvel Studios with this and minorities, they made solo movies about them. They may be terrible but they still tried.
I don't know that this is one of those things like... making a cake, where doing it repeatedly means you "improve". Similarly, I don't think Fox and WB have that "advantage" over Marvel Studios. I don't consider Fox's production of Elektra to be somehow a ... burnishing of its feminist credentials. This ain't kindergarten; I don't give out marks for trying and epically failing. Especially when these firms didn't go into it hoping to send a feminist message and just misfired, and doubly so because these sorts of epic fails have a chilling effect on future efforts (as irrational as it may be, given that epic bombs featuring white males haven't deterred movie studios from continuing to make films with white male leads).
I don't know that this is one of those things like... making a cake, where doing it repeatedly means you "improve".
It means they learn from mistakes from their previous movies, which Marvel does. Marvel isn't fucking up MCU world building like they did in Iron Man 2 and Winter Soldier improved everything from The First Avenger.
Similarly, I don't think Fox and WB have that "advantage" over Marvel Studios. I don't consider Fox's production of Elektra to be somehow a ... burnishing of its feminist credentials. This ain't kindergarten; I don't give out marks for trying and epically failing.
I didn't say they got it for making quality movies or were good for feminism. They got one thing right which Marvel hasn't, made female lead movies. That's all.
Especially when these firms didn't go into it hoping to send a feminist message and just misfired, and doubly so because these sorts of epic fails have a chilling effect on future efforts (as irrational as it may be, given that epic bombs featuring white males haven't deterred movie studios from continuing to make films with white male leads).
It is irrational. A behavior I think a promising studio like Marvel should realize is wrong. They're meant to be better than their competitors, so why are they still clinging to sexist and racist ideas about movies with those leads like they're life depends on it? Every time they have a shot at doing this, they choke. Every time. From Marvel's history with movies I also believe they won't fuck those movies up like their competition did. But they're acting like the problem will be solved by giving vague hopeful interviews and avoiding the movies with them like it's poison and they have zilch to show for it in development for those movies. We don't even have a few solid reports or rumors that they're going ahead with these movies, and they're not talking about the reasons openly about why it's taking so long. Can't find directors? Scripting issues? Actors not interested? If that's the case hiding it behind closed doors isn't giving critics any reason to believe they're working on it. They need to convince people they're taking this seriously and they're not doing it. Which is disappointing.
Black Panther has been rumored to have a script floating around for awhile now, and Stan Lee keeps blabbing that they've got a film in development.
Having a film "in development" can mean anything and nothing. It means a studio wants to make it but doesn't tell you how far they are along with it. When a movie has new rumors floating around constantly, even if the people involved leave the project (like with Ant-man) it's making progress. When a movie hasn't got rumors or reports about what's happening for years it's effectively dead.
Black Panther has been rumored to have a script floating around for awhile now, and Stan Lee keeps blabbing that they've got a film in development.
Having a film "in development" can mean anything and nothing. It means a studio wants to make it but doesn't tell you how far they are along with it. When a movie has new rumors floating around constantly, even if the people involved leave the project (like with Ant-man) it's making progress. When a movie hasn't got rumors or reports about what's happening for years it's effectively dead.
Until its corpse rises to walk again, like with Spider-Man or Superman Returns or John Carter or any other number of films that fell into limbo again and again only to keep resurfacing. Not all of them have made it to the screen, but...
Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
none of these seem that interesting to me if I'm being honest (does marvel have elektra back?)
rambeau and jones seem the most likely candidates, but neither seems like a big enough deal to headline a movie with
I really want them to make a movie with a female or minority if it makes sense....I'd hate for them to throw one out there just to check a box.
Except all their movies are there for box checking for setting up specific events. Phase 1 was setting up every Avenger and Tesseract. Phase 2 is about discovering new Infinite Stones, Winter Soldier
was there to destroy SHIELD, be HYDA's rebirth and possibly the algorithism could be setting up Ultron.
Guardians was setting up
Thanos and open up the MCU cosmic universe.
Dr. Strange is going to explore the MCU's magical side.
so, what are we asking for to happen then? Do people think there's a female character who should be playing a major part in the MCU story that Marvel is avoiding?
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Black Panther has been rumored to have a script floating around for awhile now, and Stan Lee keeps blabbing that they've got a film in development.
Having a film "in development" can mean anything and nothing. It means a studio wants to make it but doesn't tell you how far they are along with it. When a movie has new rumors floating around constantly, even if the people involved leave the project (like with Ant-man) it's making progress. When a movie hasn't got rumors or reports about what's happening for years it's effectively dead.
If your going to move goalposts, then fine, but Black Panther film does have some rumors floating around about it.
Black Panther has been rumored to have a script floating around for awhile now, and Stan Lee keeps blabbing that they've got a film in development.
Having a film "in development" can mean anything and nothing. It means a studio wants to make it but doesn't tell you how far they are along with it. When a movie has new rumors floating around constantly, even if the people involved leave the project (like with Ant-man) it's making progress. When a movie hasn't got rumors or reports about what's happening for years it's effectively dead.
Until its corpse rises to walk again, like with Spider-Man or Superman Returns or John Carter or any other number of films that fell into limbo again and again only to keep resurfacing. Not all of them have made it to the screen, but...
True, the difference is that those movies kept regaining momentum and they were made into movies. Marvel hasn't gotten that far with any minority or female lead movies yet. Also it helps when the characters are icons like Superman and Spider-man. Those characters were going to get new movies eventually, obscure comics aren't that lucky. Once Marvel movies reach a certain stage, like being announced at a convention they have a perfect track record to getting on the big screen, and that has yet to happen to these movies. That's how far behind they are in development.
Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
none of these seem that interesting to me if I'm being honest (does marvel have elektra back?)
rambeau and jones seem the most likely candidates, but neither seems like a big enough deal to headline a movie with
I really want them to make a movie with a female or minority if it makes sense....I'd hate for them to throw one out there just to check a box.
Except all their movies are there for box checking for setting up specific events. Phase 1 was setting up every Avenger and Tesseract. Phase 2 is about discovering new Infinite Stones, Winter Soldier
was there to destroy SHIELD, be HYDA's rebirth and possibly the algorithism could be setting up Ultron.
Guardians was setting up
Thanos and open up the MCU cosmic universe.
Dr. Strange is going to explore the MCU's magical side.
so, what are we asking for to happen then? Do people think there's a female character who should be playing a major part in the MCU story that Marvel is avoiding?
Those were just ones off the top of my head, not a comprehensive list by any means. Like I didn't put Angela on there because she just doesn't have much character right now for me to judge. She Hulk could be an amazing film (my goto idea is She Hulk as Tom Cruise's character in The Firm*).
*I keep bringing up John Grisham novels because I grew up watching movies like The Firm, The Pelican Brief, and A Few Good Men.
+1
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
One of the more annoying statements I hear about discrimination (in this case, casting female/minority/anyone-except-a-white-guy leads) is that people "don't want to do it just to check off some box."
I understand the sentiment behind those words, but the statement is absurd. The point is that if you were trying to cast the best actor for the part, regardless of race/ethnicity/whatever, then basic population demographics (and logic) tells you that a large proportion of those actors should be not white. There are very, very few characters who are defined by their race (in fact, it's usually the non-white characters who have to justify their existence in racial terms; see Black Panther). Wanting to see more non-white, non-male actors in leading roles has nothing to do with checking off nonexistent boxes and more with wanting to see a more realistic representation of the actual population. Anything short of a representative sample is strong evidence that discrimination exists.
The onus is not on the unrepresented to prove that they somehow need to exist on non-racial terms, especially if the basic facts and numbers are clearly and heavily skewed against them.
Now, if you want to try to argue that the context is somehow causing the skew - for example, that because historically all the characters were white males, so now we naturally gravitate towards those same qualities in current incarnations - then I would have to point out that the sins of the past should not be dictating the actions of the future. If anything, living in a supposedly less-racist world, it should be easy to identify those qualities of these characters that are essential and those that are merely an aesthetic choice based on the historical context. As an example: making Superman white because he's always been white vs. making Superman always wear his cape because he's always worn a cape. The interesting thing here is that there are plenty of examples where Superman doesn't have his cape, but there are no examples of where he is not white*. To what extent are these traits intrinsic or representative of the character and to what extent are they just anachronisms?
*the Clark Kent Superman, and at least as far as I know (based on my admittedly small knowledge of comic books)
Marvel has no reason to make a movie about <different character> until what they're doing stops making money. They're plan is to make money, what they've been doing is making money. So it makes sense for them to not change the characters they have and keep making movies as they have. As an example: Black Widow doesn't deserve a movie any more than Hawkeye does, in that they both aren't as interesting as the rest of the crew, so no movies for them. But then again, they're making Ant-Man, so maybe someone will try and cash in on Black Widow after the baby.
But your basically saying that A. Marvel can't make money with female or minority heroes (which is bullshit), or b. Marvel values maximum profit over trying to be a little be more inclusive, which is exactly the kind of thing people are bitching at them about.
Also, Ant-Man happened because they had a director who was really gung-ho on a specific vision and they let him sit on a script long enough that they're now stuck with that vision even though he's gone. I imagine if Edgar Wright bowed out early on, we'd be getting a very different ant-man, or one not at all.
Fair enough. Which female hero would you have made a movie about so far, and which of the existing movies would you scrap in it's place? Are you thinking we burn Thor and put Captain Marvel in his place? Ditch Cap for Black Widow?
Or are you thinking we more just remake one of those characters as a female or minority? Captain America as a black chick, maybe? The Hulk as an Inuit?
Ditching films? Well, Iron Man 2 was the weakest entry, IMO, though It made scads so that may break the bottom line barrier. Plus it was Phase 1, I'll give them a little bit more leeway during Phase 1, just because they were still trying to build this crazy thing. Phase 2, however, Thor 2 could go, IMO. It was easily the weakest phase 2 movie, one of the weakest MCU movies, and probably only made as much as it did due to the avengers bump (which, in theory, all phase 2 movies received)
But beyond dropping movies, as Harry mentioned it also took them five years and five movies to get to Avengers. There wasn't even an MCU movie in 2009. (Though, again, Phase 1) We're getting to Avengers 2 in four movies and 3 years. I'd be totally down with them giving another years wait and fit in a Black Panther or Captain Marvel movie (or both) in there.
As for swapping out people with PoC or women, I'm surprised you skipped the most obvious candidate. Peter Quill is nearly unrecognizable from his comic self; making him Black or Latino (Seriously, for making up 16% of the US population (4% more than african americans) how many MCU character's have been of latino or hispanic descent? Sitwell is the only one who comes to mind) would have probably been the easiest move in the world. You'd get the normal right-wing crybabies of course, but given they would have never heard about the character until the same sentance as "is now hispanic" I can't say I particular care what they think.
But ultimately, you're demonstrating the entire point. It's super easy to come up with excuse after excuse, show why it'd be hard or why it's not in the cards. I know it's easy because it's been going on for decades. Marvel isn't being malicious or callous here; they're part of a system that puts representation as either not-important or of less value than several other factors (every other factor?) and then nothing gets done. That's how this shit keeps propogating. EVERYBODY thinks "well, it's not my job to improve this" or "I'd like to help, but I just can't right now" and then nothing gets done about it.
EDIT: I mean, you can go down the list and justify the existence of every single MCU movie. Why it was chosen and what made it the best movie to go with. And they can all be 100% correct and justified. That is the problem: apparently the best choices are movies with white male leads. That is like the crux of the issue here, that somehow the default "best" option has become to not put women or PoC into lead roles.
See, I don't think it's as simple as you say to ditch or swap out movies.
Firstly, sorry for leaving you on the hook for so long, I had a post half-typed up and it got et when I tried to preview it, and then work happened. My bad.
Anywho, swapping out out a film wouldn't have been my first choice, I'd have rather they slotted in an additional movie somewhere, especially in the surprisingly short Phase 2. Though I would say that "nothing worth doing is easy" may apply here. Certainly it wouldn't be easy to swap a movie like that, but I'm sure it wasn't easy to build an entire movie studio from the ground up either. Would a Captain Marvel or Black Panther film been as easy to make advance their ongoing plot as, say, Thor 2 was? Perhaps not, but would it the added difficulty defeat the benefits of doing it?
So then which ones can we do without? I agree that IM2 and Thor 2 were among the weaker entries (though I enjoyed them both), but that's not necessarily a good argument for having scrapped them and given us, say, a BW movie and a Black Panther movie earlier and a... whatever else movie. Again, look at this from a marketing perspective. These films were intended as franchises from the get-go. A direct sequel to a successful MCU film makes a helluva lot more sense than an unproven character film. And that has nothing to do with women or minorities, that just has to do with recognition. IM2 and Thor 2 were safer bets than Doctor Strange, too. They were safer than Ant Man. (Don't forget that Thor 2 began development before The Avengers released, so the popularity of comparatively minor characters - say, Black Widow - was uncertain.)
Marvel founded an entire studio on unproven (or floundering in the case of Hulk) characters. Seriously, their very first movie was an unproven IP, followed by a sequel to a critically panned film, two more films based on cinematicly unproven characters and then a completely unprecedented team-up movie. Iron Man 2 was the only film out of that bunch that wasn't a big risk. But now that they've proven the Avengers formula works, they took a three movie break to iterate on sequels, popped in a super risky ensemble film that still had a white male lead, and then will be jumping straight into an Avengers 2 sequel, followed by at least two more movies starring white male leads.
Meanwhile, Hunger Games is doing quite well, and this year we've gotten Maleficent (from Disney, no less) and Lucy from Universal which were big successes. Why are these companies now taking bigger risks than Marvel when it comes to casting women? Especially now they have serious clout from their long string of successes?
Marvel has been slowly ramping up the number of MCU movies until now we're getting about three per year. Saturation or market burn-out was a legitimate concern early on, and no sane company is going to go from 0 to three movies per year without any idea how well those movies will be received. I submit that the number of movies we've been getting is a pretty rational rate. As people watch more movies and get hooked on the concept of a shared universe, they're willing to tolerate more. Early on, probably not. Which means that, "Well, they should have just given us a random movie about a woman and one or two with minorities in addition to all the ones we got," as Harry suggests, strikes me as non-viable.
The MCU began with a core set of heroes that would comprise the Avengers. Once they picked that core set, they were committed to multiple films for each of them, with a relative proximity to designed to capitalize on their popularity.
Basically, once this whole project kicked into gear, you were stuck with Iron Man, Thor, Cap, and Hulk movies for the immediate future. And so criticizing Marvel specifically for not giving us women/minority leads prior to, say, Cap2 or so is kind of short-sighted.
Again, as I said, you can come up with valid justification for every single movie they've done so far, why they did it when they did it and why it was probably the best decision according to the plan they have. The issue stems from the fact that their plan, no matter how intricate or planned out, or successful, is still a plan that involves going at least 13 movies before a film starring a woman or PoC in a lead role is on the plate, and it's possible (though not confirmed, I will stress that point) given what we know that they'll get all the way to Avengers 3 and still not do that. That's potentially 18 movies! You can say they have a plan all they want, and it's just not time yet for a movie without a white male lead according to that plan, but it's unfortunate they made a plan like that, and I absolutely think it's something you can be critical of them for.
I'm not meaning to implying Marvel is malicious, or callous, or dumb. Just shortsighted, for reasons that are really deeply engrained into Hollywood as a whole, if not the public itself. What Marvel is doing isn't evil or spiteful, but it is non-optimal and something I feel people should voice criticism about.
One of the more annoying statements I hear about discrimination (in this case, casting female/minority/anyone-except-a-white-guy leads) is that people "don't want to do it just to check off some box."
I understand the sentiment behind those words, but the statement is absurd. The point is that if you were trying to cast the best actor for the part, regardless of race/ethnicity/whatever, then basic population demographics (and logic) tells you that a large proportion of those actors should be not white. There are very, very few characters who are defined by their race (in fact, it's usually the non-white characters who have to justify their existence in racial terms; see Black Panther). Wanting to see more non-white, non-male actors in leading roles has nothing to do with checking off nonexistent boxes and more with wanting to see a more realistic representation of the actual population. Anything short of a representative sample is strong evidence that discrimination exists.
The onus is not on the unrepresented to prove that they somehow need to exist on non-racial terms, especially if the basic facts and numbers are clearly and heavily skewed against them.
If we're throwing race in the mix, I gotta say, as an Asian male, I'm not leaping out of my seat every time I hear about a lead Asian character. Cuz odds are he knows kung-fu. And that's, in part, what people are referring to when they're talking about "checking the box": in all honesty, I'd prefer - in a hypothetical world - Marvel not make a movie with an male Asian lead rather than them making movies that portray Asians as they have been like, say, the Mandarin (as conceived of in the comics) or, say, some of the mystic Japanese bullshit that shows up in Wolverine's backstory.* I'd prefer to be able to say, Marvel's never made a movie with an Asian lead than to say, yes, Marvel's made a movie with an Asian lead, but it just feeds into Asian stereotypes so it's just another type of racism that's not exclusionary (yay) but other-ing (boo).
Not everybody will agree with that, not even within the demographic that's being excluded, but in my mind, it's at least easier to talk about exclusion. Maybe I'm not being pragmatic about things: maybe we have to move from exclusion to stereotyping before we can move beyond it, but Mr. Miyagi's existence in the Karate Kid movies didn't really bust down any barriers for me, as far as I know. (I obviously can't see the alternate universe where the mystic Asian wise man stereotype wasn't propagated.)
If I were confident that Marvel or whoever wouldn't run headlong into even the inoffensive stereotypes, then sure. But without any particular indictment against Marvel, I'm none too confident of it. Marvel, or whoever it is, please don't just make a movie with an Asian lead because you just realised that you didn't have one and needed to; if you have a pre-existing story that you wouldn't mind casting John Cho into - without Asian-ing it up in particular, but maybe just acknowledging it - or if you have an actual story that's representative of an authentic, challenging Asian life experience, please, feel free. But you know, I'm not particularly empowered with each successive Jackie Chan movie.
The discrimination's still going to exist. I'd rather have the strong evidence that it exists, I guess is what I'm saying, rather than get entangled in the more difficult conversation about colonialism and tokenization and "positive" stereotypes etc, etc, (See, for example, what Lucy Liu's said on the topic: http://www.xojane.com/entertainment/lucy-liu-talks-racism-in-hollywood)
Edit: Maybe I'm just being difficult. But if someone goes, "Look, your male leads are all white males," I think the response I'd prefer isn't some lame excuse like, "Well, that's what the people want," but also not, "Well shit, we better get right on that," but rather, "Yes, you're right. But it's a problem that's bigger than just who's starring in our movies. It's a deeper problem in our company/industry/society, and we want to make sure that if we tackle it, we're going to be prepared and do it right rather than rushing to deflect possible criticisms."
* Not that Marvel's the only perpetrator and not that Marvel doesn't have bright spots and not that Marvel hasn't been getting better about it. One of the things I've admired about the X-Men series over the years is that the writers have being squeezing in more diversity without making a huge hullabaloo about it, and, perhaps because of the nature of the series and its focus on the Mutant other-ness, the "traditional" diversity of the characters doesn't leap out at the reader screaming, "Look at me! I'm an Asian/queer/Native American/etc, mutant!"
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
One of the more annoying statements I hear about discrimination (in this case, casting female/minority/anyone-except-a-white-guy leads) is that people "don't want to do it just to check off some box."
I understand the sentiment behind those words, but the statement is absurd. The point is that if you were trying to cast the best actor for the part, regardless of race/ethnicity/whatever, then basic population demographics (and logic) tells you that a large proportion of those actors should be not white. There are very, very few characters who are defined by their race (in fact, it's usually the non-white characters who have to justify their existence in racial terms; see Black Panther). Wanting to see more non-white, non-male actors in leading roles has nothing to do with checking off nonexistent boxes and more with wanting to see a more realistic representation of the actual population. Anything short of a representative sample is strong evidence that discrimination exists.
The onus is not on the unrepresented to prove that they somehow need to exist on non-racial terms, especially if the basic facts and numbers are clearly and heavily skewed against them.
If we're throwing race in the mix, I gotta say, as an Asian male, I'm not leaping out of my seat every time I hear about a lead Asian character. Cuz odds are he knows kung-fu. And that's, in part, what people are referring to when they're talking about "checking the box": in all honesty, I'd prefer - in a hypothetical world - Marvel not make a movie with an male Asian lead rather than them making movies that portray Asians as they have been like, say, the Mandarin (as conceived of in the comics) or, say, some of the mystic Japanese bullshit that shows up in Wolverine's backstory.* I'd prefer to be able to say, Marvel's never made a movie with an Asian lead than to say, yes, Marvel's made a movie with an Asian lead, but it just feeds into Asian stereotypes so it's just another type of racism that's not exclusionary (yay) but other-ing (boo).
Not everybody will agree with that, not even within the demographic that's being excluded, but in my mind, it's at least easier to talk about exclusion. Maybe I'm not being pragmatic about things: maybe we have to move from exclusion to stereotyping before we can move beyond it, but Mr. Miyagi's existence in the Karate Kid movies didn't really bust down any barriers for me, as far as I know. (I obviously can't see the alternate universe where the mystic Asian wise man stereotype wasn't propagated.)
If I were confident that Marvel or whoever wouldn't run headlong into even the inoffensive stereotypes, then sure. But without any particular indictment against Marvel, I'm none too confident of it. Marvel, or whoever it is, please don't just make a movie with an Asian lead because you just realised that you didn't have one and needed to; if you have a pre-existing story that you wouldn't mind casting John Cho into - without Asian-ing it up in particular, but maybe just acknowledging it - or if you have an actual story that's representative of an authentic, challenging Asian life experience, please, feel free. But you know, I'm not particularly empowered with each successive Jackie Chan movie.
The discrimination's still going to exist. I'd rather have the strong evidence that it exists, I guess is what I'm saying, rather than get entangled in the more difficult conversation about colonialism and tokenization and "positive" stereotypes etc, etc, (See, for example, what Lucy Liu's said on the topic: http://www.xojane.com/entertainment/lucy-liu-talks-racism-in-hollywood)
Edit: Maybe I'm just being difficult. But if someone goes, "Look, your male leads are all white males," I think the response I'd prefer isn't some lame excuse like, "Well, that's what the people want," but also not, "Well shit, we better get right on that," but rather, "Yes, you're right. But it's a problem that's bigger than just who's starring in our movies. It's a deeper problem in our company/industry/society, and we want to make sure that if we tackle it, we're going to be prepared and do it right rather than rushing to deflect possible criticisms."
* Not that Marvel's the only perpetrator and not that Marvel doesn't have bright spots and not that Marvel hasn't been getting better about it. One of the things I've admired about the X-Men series over the years is that the writers have being squeezing in more diversity without making a huge hullabaloo about it, and, perhaps because of the nature of the series and its focus on the Mutant other-ness, the "traditional" diversity of the characters doesn't leap out at the reader screaming, "Look at me! I'm an Asian/queer/Native American/etc, mutant!"
I totally agree with what you're saying. The point here is that if these characters are not necessarily defined by their race/gender/sexual orientation/whatever, then there should absolutely be no need to say on the casting sheet that only white males should be showing up. The issue of representation is not that YOU MUST HAVE X NUMBER OF ASIANS. It is that being Asian shouldn't be some sort of defining characteristic that almost always correlates with other traits (knowing kung fu, being good at math, being the sidekick, being the mystical master of oriental wisdom, etc. etc. etc.).
As a fellow Asian who grew up on Jet Li and Jackie Chan movies, this is one of those things that bothers me the most. Those guys are wonderful, but for a variety of reasons (not necessarily in their control) they have essentially defined what being Asian is to entire generations of Westerners. Like, you can be an Asian lead and not know kung fu. It's not so much about seeing an Asian Superman so much as seeing, say, an Asian John Cusack. Or the Black Ethan Hawke. Why can't you just be the lead character who just happens to be Asian?
And really, that's the point when it comes to these roles, at least from my perspective. I don't really care if Tony Stark is a white guy. Or a black guy. Or a woman. I only care when everyone is a white guy, because that tells me that the casting process is being unnecessarily restrictive and, in practice, institutionally discriminatory.
Marvel has no reason to make a movie about <different character> until what they're doing stops making money. They're plan is to make money, what they've been doing is making money. So it makes sense for them to not change the characters they have and keep making movies as they have. As an example: Black Widow doesn't deserve a movie any more than Hawkeye does, in that they both aren't as interesting as the rest of the crew, so no movies for them. But then again, they're making Ant-Man, so maybe someone will try and cash in on Black Widow after the baby.
But your basically saying that A. Marvel can't make money with female or minority heroes (which is bullshit), or b. Marvel values maximum profit over trying to be a little be more inclusive, which is exactly the kind of thing people are bitching at them about.
Also, Ant-Man happened because they had a director who was really gung-ho on a specific vision and they let him sit on a script long enough that they're now stuck with that vision even though he's gone. I imagine if Edgar Wright bowed out early on, we'd be getting a very different ant-man, or one not at all.
Fair enough. Which female hero would you have made a movie about so far, and which of the existing movies would you scrap in it's place? Are you thinking we burn Thor and put Captain Marvel in his place? Ditch Cap for Black Widow?
Or are you thinking we more just remake one of those characters as a female or minority? Captain America as a black chick, maybe? The Hulk as an Inuit?
Ditching films? Well, Iron Man 2 was the weakest entry, IMO, though It made scads so that may break the bottom line barrier. Plus it was Phase 1, I'll give them a little bit more leeway during Phase 1, just because they were still trying to build this crazy thing. Phase 2, however, Thor 2 could go, IMO. It was easily the weakest phase 2 movie, one of the weakest MCU movies, and probably only made as much as it did due to the avengers bump (which, in theory, all phase 2 movies received)
But beyond dropping movies, as Harry mentioned it also took them five years and five movies to get to Avengers. There wasn't even an MCU movie in 2009. (Though, again, Phase 1) We're getting to Avengers 2 in four movies and 3 years. I'd be totally down with them giving another years wait and fit in a Black Panther or Captain Marvel movie (or both) in there.
As for swapping out people with PoC or women, I'm surprised you skipped the most obvious candidate. Peter Quill is nearly unrecognizable from his comic self; making him Black or Latino (Seriously, for making up 16% of the US population (4% more than african americans) how many MCU character's have been of latino or hispanic descent? Sitwell is the only one who comes to mind) would have probably been the easiest move in the world. You'd get the normal right-wing crybabies of course, but given they would have never heard about the character until the same sentance as "is now hispanic" I can't say I particular care what they think.
But ultimately, you're demonstrating the entire point. It's super easy to come up with excuse after excuse, show why it'd be hard or why it's not in the cards. I know it's easy because it's been going on for decades. Marvel isn't being malicious or callous here; they're part of a system that puts representation as either not-important or of less value than several other factors (every other factor?) and then nothing gets done. That's how this shit keeps propogating. EVERYBODY thinks "well, it's not my job to improve this" or "I'd like to help, but I just can't right now" and then nothing gets done about it.
EDIT: I mean, you can go down the list and justify the existence of every single MCU movie. Why it was chosen and what made it the best movie to go with. And they can all be 100% correct and justified. That is the problem: apparently the best choices are movies with white male leads. That is like the crux of the issue here, that somehow the default "best" option has become to not put women or PoC into lead roles.
See, I don't think it's as simple as you say to ditch or swap out movies.
Firstly, sorry for leaving you on the hook for so long, I had a post half-typed up and it got et when I tried to preview it, and then work happened. My bad.
Anywho, swapping out out a film wouldn't have been my first choice, I'd have rather they slotted in an additional movie somewhere, especially in the surprisingly short Phase 2. Though I would say that "nothing worth doing is easy" may apply here. Certainly it wouldn't be easy to swap a movie like that, but I'm sure it wasn't easy to build an entire movie studio from the ground up either. Would a Captain Marvel or Black Panther film been as easy to make advance their ongoing plot as, say, Thor 2 was? Perhaps not, but would it the added difficulty defeat the benefits of doing it?
So then which ones can we do without? I agree that IM2 and Thor 2 were among the weaker entries (though I enjoyed them both), but that's not necessarily a good argument for having scrapped them and given us, say, a BW movie and a Black Panther movie earlier and a... whatever else movie. Again, look at this from a marketing perspective. These films were intended as franchises from the get-go. A direct sequel to a successful MCU film makes a helluva lot more sense than an unproven character film. And that has nothing to do with women or minorities, that just has to do with recognition. IM2 and Thor 2 were safer bets than Doctor Strange, too. They were safer than Ant Man. (Don't forget that Thor 2 began development before The Avengers released, so the popularity of comparatively minor characters - say, Black Widow - was uncertain.)
Marvel founded an entire studio on unproven (or floundering in the case of Hulk) characters. Seriously, their very first movie was an unproven IP, followed by a sequel to a critically panned film, two more films based on cinematicly unproven characters and then a completely unprecedented team-up movie. Iron Man 2 was the only film out of that bunch that wasn't a big risk. But now that they've proven the Avengers formula works, they took a three movie break to iterate on sequels, popped in a super risky ensemble film that still had a white male lead, and then will be jumping straight into an Avengers 2 sequel, followed by at least two more movies starring white male leads.
Meanwhile, Hunger Games is doing quite well, and this year we've gotten Maleficent (from Disney, no less) and Lucy from Universal which were big successes. Why are these companies now taking bigger risks than Marvel when it comes to casting women? Especially now they have serious clout from their long string of successes?
Marvel has been slowly ramping up the number of MCU movies until now we're getting about three per year. Saturation or market burn-out was a legitimate concern early on, and no sane company is going to go from 0 to three movies per year without any idea how well those movies will be received. I submit that the number of movies we've been getting is a pretty rational rate. As people watch more movies and get hooked on the concept of a shared universe, they're willing to tolerate more. Early on, probably not. Which means that, "Well, they should have just given us a random movie about a woman and one or two with minorities in addition to all the ones we got," as Harry suggests, strikes me as non-viable.
The MCU began with a core set of heroes that would comprise the Avengers. Once they picked that core set, they were committed to multiple films for each of them, with a relative proximity to designed to capitalize on their popularity.
Basically, once this whole project kicked into gear, you were stuck with Iron Man, Thor, Cap, and Hulk movies for the immediate future. And so criticizing Marvel specifically for not giving us women/minority leads prior to, say, Cap2 or so is kind of short-sighted.
Again, as I said, you can come up with valid justification for every single movie they've done so far, why they did it when they did it and why it was probably the best decision according to the plan they have. The issue stems from the fact that their plan, no matter how intricate or planned out, or successful, is still a plan that involves going at least 13 movies before a film starring a woman or PoC in a lead role is on the plate, and it's possible (though not confirmed, I will stress that point) given what we know that they'll get all the way to Avengers 3 and still not do that. That's potentially 18 movies! You can say they have a plan all they want, and it's just not time yet for a movie without a white male lead according to that plan, but it's unfortunate they made a plan like that, and I absolutely think it's something you can be critical of them for.
I'm not meaning to implying Marvel is malicious, or callous, or dumb. Just shortsighted, for reasons that are really deeply engrained into Hollywood as a whole, if not the public itself. What Marvel is doing isn't evil or spiteful, but it is non-optimal and something I feel people should voice criticism about.
I think you're partly arguing against a sentiment I don't actually hold. I'm saying that while Marvel was kind of locked into their first half dozen movies or so, it's perfectly valid to criticise them NOW for continuing to have all white male leads.
That said, I think cap 2 did a good job of portraying non white males. BW and Falcon were both awesome and engaging characters who were not at all defined by their race or sex.
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I think you're partly arguing against a sentiment I don't actually hold. I'm saying that while Marvel was kind of locked into their first half dozen movies or so, it's perfectly valid to criticise them NOW for continuing to have all white male leads.
I don't hugely disagree on that sentiment, actually. I mentioned it earlier that I'm okay letting phase 1 slide a bit.
Ditching films? Well, Iron Man 2 was the weakest entry, IMO, though It made scads so that may break the bottom line barrier. Plus it was Phase 1, I'll give them a little bit more leeway during Phase 1, just because they were still trying to build this crazy thing. Phase 2, however, Thor 2 could go, IMO. It was easily the weakest phase 2 movie, one of the weakest MCU movies, and probably only made as much as it did due to the avengers bump (which, in theory, all phase 2 movies received)
But beyond dropping movies, as Harry mentioned it also took them five years and five movies to get to Avengers. There wasn't even an MCU movie in 2009. (Though, again, Phase 1) We're getting to Avengers 2 in four movies and 3 years. I'd be totally down with them giving another years wait and fit in a Black Panther or Captain Marvel movie (or both) in there.
It's just when you look at Phase 1, and then Phase 2, and what Phase 3 is shaping up to be, Phase 1 becomes less of a "well, that's just how it turned out" and retroactively becomes start of an unfortunate pattern. Like I've said Marvel almost certainly has good, well thought out and justified reasons for why each film just wound up having not having a woman or PoC in the lead role. And for like one or two movies, that's fine. Three or four is probably okay too. 5 or 6? You start to notice a pattern. 7 or 8? Explanations start to wear a bit thin. 9 or 10? It starts being a bit troubling. And it just gets more troubling every movie that goes on, up to the 13 we know about, with at least 3 more additionally after that, I'm willing to bet.
That said, I think cap 2 did a good job of portraying non white males. BW and Falcon were both awesome and engaging characters who were not at all defined by their race or sex.
Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
Just want to say that the best Quasar isn't a girl. Phyla was a terrible Quasar and I'd hate for her version to be anywhere in the movies. Funny enough I liked her better as Martyr, but she didn't last long.
Jessica Jones is getting an entire mini-series devoted to her, and I couldn't be more excited about that.
She-Hulk is one of my most wanted movies. I want it to be a courtroom comedy/action film. Basically Phoenix Wright with more smashing.
Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
Just want to say that the best Quasar isn't a girl. Phyla was a terrible Quasar and I'd hate for her version to be anywhere in the movies. Funny enough I liked her better as Martyr, but she didn't last long.
Jessica Jones is getting an entire mini-series devoted to her, and I couldn't be more excited about that.
She-Hulk is one of my most wanted movies. I want it to be a courtroom comedy/action film. Basically Phoenix Wright with more smashing.
Setting her up would make for a good emotional beat for the Hulk, too. Early Avengers 2 scene would be Banner and Jennifer Walters going for a run (She-Hulk's "outfit" always seems to me like exercise clothes), Walters easily outpacing him; all the while, Banner is struggling over whether to tell his cousin the lawyer about his other self (plenty of people saw Hulk, but the transformation may not be known). Later, during or after Ultron's destructive phase, Walters is injured and needs a blood transfusion; Banner of course is the only one who can help. He ultimately agrees to help, and when she comes to, he confesses the "secret". She reveals she already knew, and shows no surprise, fear, or hesitation about it. Post credits stinger is a mirror of the earlier jogging scene, with Walters taller, more muscular, and green.
Takes almost no time in the movie, gives Banner/Hulk an emotional beat that hasn't been tread in earlier movies, and then they can do She-Hulk with the origin already established.
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Other than Danvers (a proper leading role for whom is probably a film or three away, if they want to stick with her kree related origin), who are the best female characters that Marvel actually still has the rights to? We're getting Scarlet Witch and I'll chalk it up as a win if the portrayal of her is merely non-offensive; a lot of the rest of the female marvel characters I want to see are actually X-Men related.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
Just want to say that the best Quasar isn't a girl. Phyla was a terrible Quasar and I'd hate for her version to be anywhere in the movies. Funny enough I liked her better as Martyr, but she didn't last long.
Jessica Jones is getting an entire mini-series devoted to her, and I couldn't be more excited about that.
She-Hulk is one of my most wanted movies. I want it to be a courtroom comedy/action film. Basically Phoenix Wright with more smashing.
Setting her up would make for a good emotional beat for the Hulk, too. Early Avengers 2 scene would be Banner and Jennifer Walters going for a run (She-Hulk's "outfit" always seems to me like exercise clothes), Walters easily outpacing him; all the while, Banner is struggling over whether to tell his cousin the lawyer about his other self (plenty of people saw Hulk, but the transformation may not be known). Later, during or after Ultron's destructive phase, Walters is injured and needs a blood transfusion; Banner of course is the only one who can help. He ultimately agrees to help, and when she comes to, he confesses the "secret". She reveals she already knew, and shows no surprise, fear, or hesitation about it. Post credits stinger is a mirror of the earlier jogging scene, with Walters taller, more muscular, and green.
Takes almost no time in the movie, gives Banner/Hulk an emotional beat that hasn't been tread in earlier movies, and then they can do She-Hulk with the origin already established.
Tie in the abuse he suffered as a child, which created the Hulk personality, and you'be got a solid movie.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yes, I know that Dean Cain has Asian ancestry...
Anyway.
Is there any concern that the Marvel universe could get "too" wacky? GotG benefited from being a bajillion miles away in outer space. So do the Thor movies, for that matter.
Honestly, I'm not sure I want to see tons of people showing up who all have super powers. It's the same problem that X-Men faces - if everyone is special, then nobody is special. It feels like those kinds of things eventually devolve into "let's throw as many of these people together as possible and just have big explosions everywhere and massive fights and blah blah blah". It was one of the biggest concerns with the Avengers movie, and in lesser hands could have easily turned into a massive Michael Bay spectacle with no soul at all.
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Hulk trying to pick up the hammer was the best thing.
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What do you mean?
It'll be a crime if by Avengers 3 Captain America doesn't get a chance to yank it off the floor and smash someone with it.
Chance for a well written, character driven female led part of the MCU.
I'm like 77% sure that it'll happen in AoU.
No one in charge of these films is sitting in a darkened room rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally over the success of "straight white men on film."
Proper representation of "minorities" matters now more than ever before. And if they (or anyone) get it wrong, the backlash will ALWAYS be worse than if they took the time to give it well deserved and respectful consideration. We live in a world where missteps in those areas can cause considerable damage, even with the best of intentions. So give it time and have faith that they are working to give us a great Capt. Marvel, Black Panther, etc... We know it's in development and we know that they want to do them with all the passion and honor we've come to recognize in their efforts.
We have Luke Cage & Jessica Jones definitively expected soon as well. It won't be long.
One other point, and as example I'll use Captain America. First Avenger had both strong female and black roles. Winter Soldier had both strong female & black roles.
If the stories are good, and the representations are heroic (AND inoffensive)... in the end, who cares if the strong minority had the title role for it?
Sooner or later they will.
All of those who believe in human equality should consider that in the scope of all of this there was a time not so long ago when NONE of what we have on film from Marvel would have been acceptable in our society. That time is nothing to be proud of... but where we are now, and certainly where we are going IS.
I just find many accusations that it's not being done "well enough" myopically dismissive of the fact that it is being done at all, and in ways that are positive and moving the industry and society forward.
We want more, and we WILL get it.
But let's also all appreciate some of what has been achieved in the effort and look forward to the promise of what's to come.
Because it IS coming, and those standing in the way of it are fewer in number with every day that passes.
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Having nick fury be his ultimate version I think should at least calm some of the more militant voices he's a great character and really well done.
stuff takes time it will come.
Nobody is suggesting that and in fact I specifically said otherwise several times.
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Why is it when a movie with a minority or female lead movie it's forced, but when they're in a supporting role it's not? Was Black Widow's role in Winter Soldier forced? Was Peggy's? If they can do those right, why can't they do it with those kinds of characters as movie leads? Marvel isn't stupid, it knows how to make excellent movies with strong female and minority characters. Yet we're left with zero examples when it comes to putting them into movie leads. As I said, the movie division needs to pay attention to the tv division on this subject. We know they're willing to do something about it without any excuses.
That's good since no one in this thread thought they were.
That's the problem, they have had more than enough time for this. They should have had at least one movie about a minority or female lead by now but nope. Still batting a zero. Phase 2 was when they should have moved and they blinked. Now we have to wait for Phase 3 and we don't have any definite evidence a movie with a minority or female lead is on the fast track. Ant-Man and Strange have had movement, even rumors, for years - we have absolutely nothing on movies like Black Panther or Captain Marvel. Forgive me for being skeptical.
That's the tv division, the discussion is about the movie division.
People do care about this. It's a subject worthy to be critical of Marvel. Sure they've done great movies with supporting characters that are minorities and female characters but it's ridiculous how long this is taking. It appears like this isn't a big a priority to solve for Marvel, especially with lead characters who can be given to actors that aren't white - like Stephen Strange, who Joaquin Phoenix was in negotiations to play. Even the James Bond franchise publicly offered roles to minority actors, we don't know if Marvel is doing that with their movies. Ant-man has only one minority cast in a movie filled with white people.
It's appreciated but they past that stage with Phase 1.
I'd believe what your saying more if we had proof to back up that Marvel does consider this a huge priority and it is, in the tv division. It's the movie division whose being too conservative with the subject. This will only happen when Marvel thinks it's a main priority and I haven't got much evidence that this is the case. If it was noticeable that this is what they're doing we wouldn't be having this discussion but here we are.
She-hulk
Quasar
Moondragon
Monica Rambeau
Jessica Jones
Electra
About three dozen more cosmic characters.
Marvel's got a lot of them.
With that said, Captain Marvel, Black Widow, and She-Hulk would all make sense with what they've build at this point. Black Panther is one that people have been asking for forever too. Doctor Strange would probably be one of the easiest characters to make a minority without making comic guys freak out. Personally I really want Falcon or Rhodie get their own movie before Black Panther, but that's just because I find BP super boring.
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Gonna be straight here.
If you'd told me The Bourne Legacy was a Hawkeye origin, I'd believe you.
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Except all their movies are there for box checking for setting up specific events. Phase 1 was setting up every Avenger and Tesseract. Phase 2 is about discovering new Infinite Stones, Winter Soldier
Um. The webpage is a link to a list of all (many) of the women who'd been mutilated or whatnot in some way in comics, initially begun by Gail Simone back in the... I want to say late 90s. It's called Women in Refrigerators because that was just one of the most ridiculous examples they had. Emphasis on the "one of the" because there were a lot of similarly insane ones.
I don't know that this is one of those things like... making a cake, where doing it repeatedly means you "improve". Similarly, I don't think Fox and WB have that "advantage" over Marvel Studios. I don't consider Fox's production of Elektra to be somehow a ... burnishing of its feminist credentials. This ain't kindergarten; I don't give out marks for trying and epically failing. Especially when these firms didn't go into it hoping to send a feminist message and just misfired, and doubly so because these sorts of epic fails have a chilling effect on future efforts (as irrational as it may be, given that epic bombs featuring white males haven't deterred movie studios from continuing to make films with white male leads).
That's clearly not what @Brainiac 8 meant by "checking a box".
It means they learn from mistakes from their previous movies, which Marvel does. Marvel isn't fucking up MCU world building like they did in Iron Man 2 and Winter Soldier improved everything from The First Avenger.
I didn't say they got it for making quality movies or were good for feminism. They got one thing right which Marvel hasn't, made female lead movies. That's all.
It is irrational. A behavior I think a promising studio like Marvel should realize is wrong. They're meant to be better than their competitors, so why are they still clinging to sexist and racist ideas about movies with those leads like they're life depends on it? Every time they have a shot at doing this, they choke. Every time. From Marvel's history with movies I also believe they won't fuck those movies up like their competition did. But they're acting like the problem will be solved by giving vague hopeful interviews and avoiding the movies with them like it's poison and they have zilch to show for it in development for those movies. We don't even have a few solid reports or rumors that they're going ahead with these movies, and they're not talking about the reasons openly about why it's taking so long. Can't find directors? Scripting issues? Actors not interested? If that's the case hiding it behind closed doors isn't giving critics any reason to believe they're working on it. They need to convince people they're taking this seriously and they're not doing it. Which is disappointing.
Having a film "in development" can mean anything and nothing. It means a studio wants to make it but doesn't tell you how far they are along with it. When a movie has new rumors floating around constantly, even if the people involved leave the project (like with Ant-man) it's making progress. When a movie hasn't got rumors or reports about what's happening for years it's effectively dead.
Until its corpse rises to walk again, like with Spider-Man or Superman Returns or John Carter or any other number of films that fell into limbo again and again only to keep resurfacing. Not all of them have made it to the screen, but...
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none of these seem that interesting to me if I'm being honest (does marvel have elektra back?)
rambeau and jones seem the most likely candidates, but neither seems like a big enough deal to headline a movie with
so, what are we asking for to happen then? Do people think there's a female character who should be playing a major part in the MCU story that Marvel is avoiding?
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True, the difference is that those movies kept regaining momentum and they were made into movies. Marvel hasn't gotten that far with any minority or female lead movies yet. Also it helps when the characters are icons like Superman and Spider-man. Those characters were going to get new movies eventually, obscure comics aren't that lucky. Once Marvel movies reach a certain stage, like being announced at a convention they have a perfect track record to getting on the big screen, and that has yet to happen to these movies. That's how far behind they are in development.
Those were just ones off the top of my head, not a comprehensive list by any means. Like I didn't put Angela on there because she just doesn't have much character right now for me to judge. She Hulk could be an amazing film (my goto idea is She Hulk as Tom Cruise's character in The Firm*).
*I keep bringing up John Grisham novels because I grew up watching movies like The Firm, The Pelican Brief, and A Few Good Men.
I understand the sentiment behind those words, but the statement is absurd. The point is that if you were trying to cast the best actor for the part, regardless of race/ethnicity/whatever, then basic population demographics (and logic) tells you that a large proportion of those actors should be not white. There are very, very few characters who are defined by their race (in fact, it's usually the non-white characters who have to justify their existence in racial terms; see Black Panther). Wanting to see more non-white, non-male actors in leading roles has nothing to do with checking off nonexistent boxes and more with wanting to see a more realistic representation of the actual population. Anything short of a representative sample is strong evidence that discrimination exists.
The onus is not on the unrepresented to prove that they somehow need to exist on non-racial terms, especially if the basic facts and numbers are clearly and heavily skewed against them.
Now, if you want to try to argue that the context is somehow causing the skew - for example, that because historically all the characters were white males, so now we naturally gravitate towards those same qualities in current incarnations - then I would have to point out that the sins of the past should not be dictating the actions of the future. If anything, living in a supposedly less-racist world, it should be easy to identify those qualities of these characters that are essential and those that are merely an aesthetic choice based on the historical context. As an example: making Superman white because he's always been white vs. making Superman always wear his cape because he's always worn a cape. The interesting thing here is that there are plenty of examples where Superman doesn't have his cape, but there are no examples of where he is not white*. To what extent are these traits intrinsic or representative of the character and to what extent are they just anachronisms?
*the Clark Kent Superman, and at least as far as I know (based on my admittedly small knowledge of comic books)
Ironically Superman has been played by an Asian actor before.
Firstly, sorry for leaving you on the hook for so long, I had a post half-typed up and it got et when I tried to preview it, and then work happened. My bad.
Anywho, swapping out out a film wouldn't have been my first choice, I'd have rather they slotted in an additional movie somewhere, especially in the surprisingly short Phase 2. Though I would say that "nothing worth doing is easy" may apply here. Certainly it wouldn't be easy to swap a movie like that, but I'm sure it wasn't easy to build an entire movie studio from the ground up either. Would a Captain Marvel or Black Panther film been as easy to make advance their ongoing plot as, say, Thor 2 was? Perhaps not, but would it the added difficulty defeat the benefits of doing it?
Marvel founded an entire studio on unproven (or floundering in the case of Hulk) characters. Seriously, their very first movie was an unproven IP, followed by a sequel to a critically panned film, two more films based on cinematicly unproven characters and then a completely unprecedented team-up movie. Iron Man 2 was the only film out of that bunch that wasn't a big risk. But now that they've proven the Avengers formula works, they took a three movie break to iterate on sequels, popped in a super risky ensemble film that still had a white male lead, and then will be jumping straight into an Avengers 2 sequel, followed by at least two more movies starring white male leads.
Meanwhile, Hunger Games is doing quite well, and this year we've gotten Maleficent (from Disney, no less) and Lucy from Universal which were big successes. Why are these companies now taking bigger risks than Marvel when it comes to casting women? Especially now they have serious clout from their long string of successes?
Again, as I said, you can come up with valid justification for every single movie they've done so far, why they did it when they did it and why it was probably the best decision according to the plan they have. The issue stems from the fact that their plan, no matter how intricate or planned out, or successful, is still a plan that involves going at least 13 movies before a film starring a woman or PoC in a lead role is on the plate, and it's possible (though not confirmed, I will stress that point) given what we know that they'll get all the way to Avengers 3 and still not do that. That's potentially 18 movies! You can say they have a plan all they want, and it's just not time yet for a movie without a white male lead according to that plan, but it's unfortunate they made a plan like that, and I absolutely think it's something you can be critical of them for.
I'm not meaning to implying Marvel is malicious, or callous, or dumb. Just shortsighted, for reasons that are really deeply engrained into Hollywood as a whole, if not the public itself. What Marvel is doing isn't evil or spiteful, but it is non-optimal and something I feel people should voice criticism about.
If we're throwing race in the mix, I gotta say, as an Asian male, I'm not leaping out of my seat every time I hear about a lead Asian character. Cuz odds are he knows kung-fu. And that's, in part, what people are referring to when they're talking about "checking the box": in all honesty, I'd prefer - in a hypothetical world - Marvel not make a movie with an male Asian lead rather than them making movies that portray Asians as they have been like, say, the Mandarin (as conceived of in the comics) or, say, some of the mystic Japanese bullshit that shows up in Wolverine's backstory.* I'd prefer to be able to say, Marvel's never made a movie with an Asian lead than to say, yes, Marvel's made a movie with an Asian lead, but it just feeds into Asian stereotypes so it's just another type of racism that's not exclusionary (yay) but other-ing (boo).
Not everybody will agree with that, not even within the demographic that's being excluded, but in my mind, it's at least easier to talk about exclusion. Maybe I'm not being pragmatic about things: maybe we have to move from exclusion to stereotyping before we can move beyond it, but Mr. Miyagi's existence in the Karate Kid movies didn't really bust down any barriers for me, as far as I know. (I obviously can't see the alternate universe where the mystic Asian wise man stereotype wasn't propagated.)
If I were confident that Marvel or whoever wouldn't run headlong into even the inoffensive stereotypes, then sure. But without any particular indictment against Marvel, I'm none too confident of it. Marvel, or whoever it is, please don't just make a movie with an Asian lead because you just realised that you didn't have one and needed to; if you have a pre-existing story that you wouldn't mind casting John Cho into - without Asian-ing it up in particular, but maybe just acknowledging it - or if you have an actual story that's representative of an authentic, challenging Asian life experience, please, feel free. But you know, I'm not particularly empowered with each successive Jackie Chan movie.
The discrimination's still going to exist. I'd rather have the strong evidence that it exists, I guess is what I'm saying, rather than get entangled in the more difficult conversation about colonialism and tokenization and "positive" stereotypes etc, etc, (See, for example, what Lucy Liu's said on the topic: http://www.xojane.com/entertainment/lucy-liu-talks-racism-in-hollywood)
Edit: Maybe I'm just being difficult. But if someone goes, "Look, your male leads are all white males," I think the response I'd prefer isn't some lame excuse like, "Well, that's what the people want," but also not, "Well shit, we better get right on that," but rather, "Yes, you're right. But it's a problem that's bigger than just who's starring in our movies. It's a deeper problem in our company/industry/society, and we want to make sure that if we tackle it, we're going to be prepared and do it right rather than rushing to deflect possible criticisms."
* Not that Marvel's the only perpetrator and not that Marvel doesn't have bright spots and not that Marvel hasn't been getting better about it. One of the things I've admired about the X-Men series over the years is that the writers have being squeezing in more diversity without making a huge hullabaloo about it, and, perhaps because of the nature of the series and its focus on the Mutant other-ness, the "traditional" diversity of the characters doesn't leap out at the reader screaming, "Look at me! I'm an Asian/queer/Native American/etc, mutant!"
I totally agree with what you're saying. The point here is that if these characters are not necessarily defined by their race/gender/sexual orientation/whatever, then there should absolutely be no need to say on the casting sheet that only white males should be showing up. The issue of representation is not that YOU MUST HAVE X NUMBER OF ASIANS. It is that being Asian shouldn't be some sort of defining characteristic that almost always correlates with other traits (knowing kung fu, being good at math, being the sidekick, being the mystical master of oriental wisdom, etc. etc. etc.).
As a fellow Asian who grew up on Jet Li and Jackie Chan movies, this is one of those things that bothers me the most. Those guys are wonderful, but for a variety of reasons (not necessarily in their control) they have essentially defined what being Asian is to entire generations of Westerners. Like, you can be an Asian lead and not know kung fu. It's not so much about seeing an Asian Superman so much as seeing, say, an Asian John Cusack. Or the Black Ethan Hawke. Why can't you just be the lead character who just happens to be Asian?
And really, that's the point when it comes to these roles, at least from my perspective. I don't really care if Tony Stark is a white guy. Or a black guy. Or a woman. I only care when everyone is a white guy, because that tells me that the casting process is being unnecessarily restrictive and, in practice, institutionally discriminatory.
I think you're partly arguing against a sentiment I don't actually hold. I'm saying that while Marvel was kind of locked into their first half dozen movies or so, it's perfectly valid to criticise them NOW for continuing to have all white male leads.
That said, I think cap 2 did a good job of portraying non white males. BW and Falcon were both awesome and engaging characters who were not at all defined by their race or sex.
I don't hugely disagree on that sentiment, actually. I mentioned it earlier that I'm okay letting phase 1 slide a bit.
It's just when you look at Phase 1, and then Phase 2, and what Phase 3 is shaping up to be, Phase 1 becomes less of a "well, that's just how it turned out" and retroactively becomes start of an unfortunate pattern. Like I've said Marvel almost certainly has good, well thought out and justified reasons for why each film just wound up having not having a woman or PoC in the lead role. And for like one or two movies, that's fine. Three or four is probably okay too. 5 or 6? You start to notice a pattern. 7 or 8? Explanations start to wear a bit thin. 9 or 10? It starts being a bit troubling. And it just gets more troubling every movie that goes on, up to the 13 we know about, with at least 3 more additionally after that, I'm willing to bet.
Won't disagree there.
Just want to say that the best Quasar isn't a girl. Phyla was a terrible Quasar and I'd hate for her version to be anywhere in the movies. Funny enough I liked her better as Martyr, but she didn't last long.
Jessica Jones is getting an entire mini-series devoted to her, and I couldn't be more excited about that.
She-Hulk is one of my most wanted movies. I want it to be a courtroom comedy/action film. Basically Phoenix Wright with more smashing.
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Setting her up would make for a good emotional beat for the Hulk, too. Early Avengers 2 scene would be Banner and Jennifer Walters going for a run (She-Hulk's "outfit" always seems to me like exercise clothes), Walters easily outpacing him; all the while, Banner is struggling over whether to tell his cousin the lawyer about his other self (plenty of people saw Hulk, but the transformation may not be known). Later, during or after Ultron's destructive phase, Walters is injured and needs a blood transfusion; Banner of course is the only one who can help. He ultimately agrees to help, and when she comes to, he confesses the "secret". She reveals she already knew, and shows no surprise, fear, or hesitation about it. Post credits stinger is a mirror of the earlier jogging scene, with Walters taller, more muscular, and green.
Takes almost no time in the movie, gives Banner/Hulk an emotional beat that hasn't been tread in earlier movies, and then they can do She-Hulk with the origin already established.
Tie in the abuse he suffered as a child, which created the Hulk personality, and you'be got a solid movie.
Not sure if serious...
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Anyway.
Is there any concern that the Marvel universe could get "too" wacky? GotG benefited from being a bajillion miles away in outer space. So do the Thor movies, for that matter.
Honestly, I'm not sure I want to see tons of people showing up who all have super powers. It's the same problem that X-Men faces - if everyone is special, then nobody is special. It feels like those kinds of things eventually devolve into "let's throw as many of these people together as possible and just have big explosions everywhere and massive fights and blah blah blah". It was one of the biggest concerns with the Avengers movie, and in lesser hands could have easily turned into a massive Michael Bay spectacle with no soul at all.