ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
It's been a while since I played, but I'll try to dredge up some memories:
1) Recoil gloves should be listed as "very rare".
2) Psykers are fucking bonkers. If one of your players rolles up a Biomancy psyker, good luck. I houseruled that the healing power could only be used once per day per person, just to put in some tension that characters could maybe be killed (they couldn't, because that heal was fucking silly).
3) I haven't gotten a hold of 2nd ed yet, but it looks pretty.
Play Second Edition instead. I've played in a Rogue Trader and Black Crusade game, RT is DH 1E style and BC is DH 2E style, and the new rules are much cleaner in all regards.
There's just a huge list of issues to go over really, a lot of things that would be hard to explain out of context (like the change in how "Unnatural" attributes worked) but the new iteration of the rules are simply much better. You can generally still use all the old material as sourcebooks, just cherry pick the non-ridiculous items, etc.
Anyone run a game of Dark Heresy?
I've got the first ed rulebook and I'm planning to run a game for my group. Most of them are only passingly familiar with 40k so I think it'll be a good way to explore the universe.
I'm worried about rules/balance issues though. Is 2nd ed worth tracking down? Any tips or house rules you've used in the pas you wanna share?
I'll stick up some ideas about my campaign later if anyone wants to read them and/or give suggestions...
Dark Heresy is punishingly difficult if you're not careful. You die at the drop of a hat.
I ran a two year long campaign of Dark Heresy using some of the published adventures spiced up with my own stories and such. I loved it. I love that it is cripplingly punishing. Don't f up. If there's cover, use it. PM me if you'd like me to send you some of my campaign notes and custom NPCs.
I played Dark Heresy for a few years and by the end, we had thoroughly broke that system. I'll try to remember some things we houseruled, but like other's have said, each successive version (dark heresy < rogue trader < black crusade < dark heresy 2nd ed) gets progressively cleaner and less shenaniganery.
The main thing I recall is that it scales horribly. Early on, when youre all squishy humans shooting laspistols at other squishy humans, it works out pretty well. Later on, when everyone has powerfists and meltaguns, and theyre fighting lictors and daemons and space-marines and everyone has like an 80% skill rate at everything, the game gets hyper-lethal. Everything will kill everything else in a hit or two -if it hits-, and so everything breaks down to who fails a dodge roll fist. Classes between characters also scaled poorly. Our GM had a lot of trouble crafting challenging encounters because one player could reliably dickpunch a greater daemon into oblivion, but everyone else would get vaporized if the daemon so much as looked at them. Super easy for one player. Impossible for everyone else.
What we settled on being the most fun was boosting up the role playing aspects of it, and downplaying straightforward dungeon crawls. Getting into fights had serious consequences, and picking when, where, how, and what to fight had major implications. Play up up the detective-ness of dark heresy, and the subtlety. Killing a simple gang leader could destabalize an entire hive-level, start a mutant revolution, and land the players in even deeper shit. In our later Black Crusade campaigns, we were a party of apostles of a new, non-evil chaos god, one that our actions and motivations shaped. We had a whole planet to try and gain followers to our new god, made of several competing political factions: A newly founded Imperial Cathedral, a nomadic cult led by a disguised necron lord, and borderline chaotic warshipping natives. Our goals were not in beating the crap out of bosses and getting loot, it was about trying to infiltrate and influence these different factions so we could sway them to our own side. Sometimes that involved murdering people (we pushed the imperial abbot down some stairs and then covered it up as an accident), but they always had far reaching consequences.
Some basic houserules I think we changed:
-If damage goes through armour and starts biting into toughness reduction, the character takes at least 1 damage (even if the damage doesn't fully penetrate). Otherwise big things get stupid invulnerable to certain weapons and its just a slog.
-Dodging and parrying must be declared and BEFORE the enemy rolls to hit. You only get one reaction a round, and just saving it until something hits you makes these defensive moves extremely powerful (especially later). Reducing the power of dodging/parrying makes players seek cover a lot more.
-If someone is abusing an ability (especially warp powers. we had one character with far-sight who was just scouting around everything at every opportunity and making ridiculous sniping shots with it) don't be afraid to just slap down some GM justice into the story. Introduce recurring daemons, or forwarning ghosts, or anything to apply a bit of a limiter to dumb things. If a psyker is using that broken-ass healing spell every chance they get, just have it melt their own hands into their ally every 2nd or 3rd attempt. Or just start rolling dice and writing something down whenever they do something. Makes any player edgy.
FYI the healing power is nerfed in Black Crusade onward (heals after the first have an increasing chance to be rejected by the body), but I don't know why they bothered since someone with Medicae and a decent Int modifier plus the cybernetic implant that makes you count as always "lightly wounded" makes healing trivial anyway.
They also introduced a new weapon mod called Felling which bypasses Unnatural Toughness, so no need for to houserule around that IMO.
The combat system is really streaky and hyper lethal, but I actually found that to be really fun and charming. I wouldn't houserule any of it, just go with the craziness, because each game has a system to cheat death. When you "die" - in a horribly gruesome spectacle as per random tables - you just burn a Fate Point or some Infamy and you don't really die. Black Crusade was really elegant about this as the rise and fall of Infamy was a fun and interesting system.
Basically it's kind of like 40k, you'll have a handful of saves you can roll but if anything actually connects you are annihilated. So you roll to dodge/parry, roll your field save, then the attack pierces all your armor and toughness doesn't reduce enough and you take 50 damage when you have 15 hit points.
Admittedly Black Crusade went crazy in this regard with some of its supplements. If someone tries to attack my character they must first 1, roll Willpower to be able to attack me at all (psychic power) 2, roll Willpower to be able to attack me at all (again, but for melee only) 3, get past my crazy psychically unnatural dodge/parry 4, get past my crazy based-on-my-psy-rating invulnerable save 5, blow blast my armor and toughness and kill me in one shot (for any real threat).
It really keeps you on the edge though, even with 3 90% saves, so 1 in a 1000 chance to die, you can still die on any swing from that Daemon Prince.
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ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
I know about the BC heal change (I'm running a game currently, but no psykers in the group), but that medicae change was the basis for a friend's Heretek.
So far, the biggest problem I've had with BC is getting my Alpha Legion friend to stop dominating the planning phase of every mission with endlessly complicated plans. It's a good problem to have.
Yea BC is amazing, the Compact system in particular is a well thought meta-mechanic - it forces the players to organize and plan, and to generate ideas and drive the plot forward.
Track down 2nd edition if you can. The balance in first edition is pretty shocking, especially full auto vs. single shot or semi auto. Second edition also adds a rather nice Subtlety mechanic, which is a good way of mechanically balancing the option of waving the rosette around vs. being discrete.
Also not having to track every single throne is a blessing.
Chrysis on
Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
Thanks for the replies everyone!
My friend had a copy of 2nd which I can borrow, so I'll run with that.
Anyone who wants to post/pm ideas etc is more than welcome to.
I've DMed a bunch of times but usually using very mechanics-lite systems like FATE. I have a few of the adventure books available to me as well so i was actually planning to steal and re-skin the encounters from that so they would hopefully be semi balanced...
The guy to the left of the Chaos Knight appears to be a Khorne Knight. Especially based on the axe, it looks a bit like a legged version of the Lord of Skulls.
Not that I'd be interested anyway; Khorne is the most boring of all the Chaos gods.
In any case, my body is ready for Slaanesh Knights (if you know what I mean ;-)), but I fear my wallet is not .
I'd like to say to everyone, youre welcome for these new chaos knights. If it wasn't for my recent conversion of my own, these wouldnt have existed.
At least they look like reskinned imperial knight types and a LoS conversion, so I won't have to rip the weapons off of mine.
Here's a better angle on the lord. Bet he still costs 888 points tho!
Oh and i'll also handwave stuff like basic ammo and coins etc. my group isnt a huge fan of too much book keeping
One of the games (I think Rogue Trade) introduced the idea of "the Rule of Three" that, if it isn't mentioned in DH2E, you should rip off: everyone has 3 magazines/grenades/doses/whatever of any consumable they own per game session.
Because it's actually pretty fun to run out of melta bombs or whatever right when you need it, creates the crazy moments.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
I know right? Grab some orks and paint em powder white with motor-oil warpaint. Lots of bikes, a few battlewagon war-rigs, grot tanks, trakks with spines all over, tankbustas with those explosive-lance things as tank-hammers, trukks full of war boyz.
Mad Max is probably the best 40k (and fallout movie) we'll never get.
McGibs on
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
does anyone know of a GW kit that has a beer bottle as a bit? Or a molotov cocktail?
valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
edited May 2015
Well, that does it. If I ever start a 30K army, it will be Imperial Fists also. I think they have the best looking characters. I hope Rogal Dorn looks as great.
EDIT: I also wanted to mention, I participated in my first Apocalypse game yesterday. There were some house rules and at least one player was a little perturbed by that. I think the day just wore on. I know my back was killing me by the end of it. We only got thru 4 turns, but I had a blast. I didn't really feel like I accomplished much.
The other side had three titans to our one. Ours got blown up, and we couldn't touch theirs. That wasn't so much fun.
All the Dark Heresy talk has got me looking through my rule books and now I want to play.
Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
I finished painting the first of my Valkyries, the counts-as Sanguinary Priest Eir Læknir ("Dr. Eir" in English).
I honestly think it's the best miniature I've ever painted.
More pics in the painting thread.
@TraceofToxin: Here's the size comparison you wanted, with Eir next to a (significantly worse painted (also by me)) Dark Vengeance Chosen.
As you can see, they're almost identical in height and pretty close in bulk.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Those are fucking incredible, dude.
I am really excited for the upcoming Space Marine relaunch. I've been playing Drop Pod lists but I think I'm going to grab 3 more Rhinos, 2 Predators, and another Vindicator to run a METAL BOX army.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
So here are some pics from our apocalypse game this weekend:
Posts
1) Recoil gloves should be listed as "very rare".
2) Psykers are fucking bonkers. If one of your players rolles up a Biomancy psyker, good luck. I houseruled that the healing power could only be used once per day per person, just to put in some tension that characters could maybe be killed (they couldn't, because that heal was fucking silly).
3) I haven't gotten a hold of 2nd ed yet, but it looks pretty.
There's just a huge list of issues to go over really, a lot of things that would be hard to explain out of context (like the change in how "Unnatural" attributes worked) but the new iteration of the rules are simply much better. You can generally still use all the old material as sourcebooks, just cherry pick the non-ridiculous items, etc.
Dark Heresy is punishingly difficult if you're not careful. You die at the drop of a hat.
The main thing I recall is that it scales horribly. Early on, when youre all squishy humans shooting laspistols at other squishy humans, it works out pretty well. Later on, when everyone has powerfists and meltaguns, and theyre fighting lictors and daemons and space-marines and everyone has like an 80% skill rate at everything, the game gets hyper-lethal. Everything will kill everything else in a hit or two -if it hits-, and so everything breaks down to who fails a dodge roll fist. Classes between characters also scaled poorly. Our GM had a lot of trouble crafting challenging encounters because one player could reliably dickpunch a greater daemon into oblivion, but everyone else would get vaporized if the daemon so much as looked at them. Super easy for one player. Impossible for everyone else.
What we settled on being the most fun was boosting up the role playing aspects of it, and downplaying straightforward dungeon crawls. Getting into fights had serious consequences, and picking when, where, how, and what to fight had major implications. Play up up the detective-ness of dark heresy, and the subtlety. Killing a simple gang leader could destabalize an entire hive-level, start a mutant revolution, and land the players in even deeper shit. In our later Black Crusade campaigns, we were a party of apostles of a new, non-evil chaos god, one that our actions and motivations shaped. We had a whole planet to try and gain followers to our new god, made of several competing political factions: A newly founded Imperial Cathedral, a nomadic cult led by a disguised necron lord, and borderline chaotic warshipping natives. Our goals were not in beating the crap out of bosses and getting loot, it was about trying to infiltrate and influence these different factions so we could sway them to our own side. Sometimes that involved murdering people (we pushed the imperial abbot down some stairs and then covered it up as an accident), but they always had far reaching consequences.
Some basic houserules I think we changed:
-If damage goes through armour and starts biting into toughness reduction, the character takes at least 1 damage (even if the damage doesn't fully penetrate). Otherwise big things get stupid invulnerable to certain weapons and its just a slog.
-Dodging and parrying must be declared and BEFORE the enemy rolls to hit. You only get one reaction a round, and just saving it until something hits you makes these defensive moves extremely powerful (especially later). Reducing the power of dodging/parrying makes players seek cover a lot more.
-If someone is abusing an ability (especially warp powers. we had one character with far-sight who was just scouting around everything at every opportunity and making ridiculous sniping shots with it) don't be afraid to just slap down some GM justice into the story. Introduce recurring daemons, or forwarning ghosts, or anything to apply a bit of a limiter to dumb things. If a psyker is using that broken-ass healing spell every chance they get, just have it melt their own hands into their ally every 2nd or 3rd attempt. Or just start rolling dice and writing something down whenever they do something. Makes any player edgy.
They also introduced a new weapon mod called Felling which bypasses Unnatural Toughness, so no need for to houserule around that IMO.
The combat system is really streaky and hyper lethal, but I actually found that to be really fun and charming. I wouldn't houserule any of it, just go with the craziness, because each game has a system to cheat death. When you "die" - in a horribly gruesome spectacle as per random tables - you just burn a Fate Point or some Infamy and you don't really die. Black Crusade was really elegant about this as the rise and fall of Infamy was a fun and interesting system.
Basically it's kind of like 40k, you'll have a handful of saves you can roll but if anything actually connects you are annihilated. So you roll to dodge/parry, roll your field save, then the attack pierces all your armor and toughness doesn't reduce enough and you take 50 damage when you have 15 hit points.
Admittedly Black Crusade went crazy in this regard with some of its supplements. If someone tries to attack my character they must first 1, roll Willpower to be able to attack me at all (psychic power) 2, roll Willpower to be able to attack me at all (again, but for melee only) 3, get past my crazy psychically unnatural dodge/parry 4, get past my crazy based-on-my-psy-rating invulnerable save 5, blow blast my armor and toughness and kill me in one shot (for any real threat).
It really keeps you on the edge though, even with 3 90% saves, so 1 in a 1000 chance to die, you can still die on any swing from that Daemon Prince.
So far, the biggest problem I've had with BC is getting my Alpha Legion friend to stop dominating the planning phase of every mission with endlessly complicated plans. It's a good problem to have.
Also not having to track every single throne is a blessing.
My friend had a copy of 2nd which I can borrow, so I'll run with that.
Anyone who wants to post/pm ideas etc is more than welcome to.
I've DMed a bunch of times but usually using very mechanics-lite systems like FATE. I have a few of the adventure books available to me as well so i was actually planning to steal and re-skin the encounters from that so they would hopefully be semi balanced...
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
This also happened:
And this:
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Extreaminatus get in here and take off your pants we're turning this into a slaaneshi party
What am i looking at in the second picture? Forgeworld paints?
Because I will buy all those paints of only for the old-school pots.
Top 2 rows are pigments
Middle 2 appear to be paints
4th is metallics/medium
5th appears to be washes or glazes
Yes please.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
Not that I'd be interested anyway; Khorne is the most boring of all the Chaos gods.
In any case, my body is ready for Slaanesh Knights (if you know what I mean ;-)), but I fear my wallet is not
At least they look like reskinned imperial knight types and a LoS conversion, so I won't have to rip the weapons off of mine.
Here's a better angle on the lord. Bet he still costs 888 points tho!
One of the games (I think Rogue Trade) introduced the idea of "the Rule of Three" that, if it isn't mentioned in DH2E, you should rip off: everyone has 3 magazines/grenades/doses/whatever of any consumable they own per game session.
Because it's actually pretty fun to run out of melta bombs or whatever right when you need it, creates the crazy moments.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I love the Rule of Three thing. I'm totally using it!
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
When does this become available for purchase? I don't think my dick can handle an erection lasting longer than 4 months.
Well then. This is some interesting can of worms.
Forgeworld gate breaking. Also, some super dirty rules, like 20 berserkers assaulting on turn 1 after their pod crushes whatever it lands on.
Pretty badass I guess.
Mad Max is probably the best 40k (and fallout movie) we'll never get.
Sigismund in the house
EDIT: I also wanted to mention, I participated in my first Apocalypse game yesterday. There were some house rules and at least one player was a little perturbed by that. I think the day just wore on. I know my back was killing me by the end of it. We only got thru 4 turns, but I had a blast. I didn't really feel like I accomplished much.
The other side had three titans to our one. Ours got blown up, and we couldn't touch theirs. That wasn't so much fun.
I finished painting the first of my Valkyries, the counts-as Sanguinary Priest Eir Læknir ("Dr. Eir" in English).
I honestly think it's the best miniature I've ever painted.
More pics in the painting thread.
@TraceofToxin: Here's the size comparison you wanted, with Eir next to a (significantly worse painted (also by me)) Dark Vengeance Chosen.
As you can see, they're almost identical in height and pretty close in bulk.
I am really excited for the upcoming Space Marine relaunch. I've been playing Drop Pod lists but I think I'm going to grab 3 more Rhinos, 2 Predators, and another Vindicator to run a METAL BOX army.
Are "apocolypse" games fun?