No they aren't. When it's just my guy friends around, we roast each other harder and talk about our interests that our wives/female friends don't typically share, from how excited we are about the upcoming NFL season to whatever else. When my wife and her girlfriends are around without guys, they openly discuss the annoyances of menstruation and talk a lot more about sex and they'll be talking about books and movies that they know we don't care about so they wouldn't discuss them as much in mixed company.
Men and women ARE different, and for the most part don't discuss the same things in mixed company as they do in single gender scenarios. That is a fact of life, and is not about any gender relations issue. I don't want to be part of discussions about how sucky it is to have your period, and my wife doesn't want to be part of discussions we might have about the specifics of how badly my balls hurt while I recovered from my vasectomy.
When I'm hanging out with my friends who are girls, we talk about whatever interests we share, but they're not going to talk to me about the same things they talk about to their girlfriends, just like I'm not going to talk to them about the same things I talk to guy friends about. That's ridiculous to expect.
I think we're going to fundamentally disagree here, and the conversation about it would get way off Final Fantasy haha.
No they aren't. When it's just my guy friends around, we roast each other harder and talk about our interests that our wives/female friends don't typically share, from how excited we are about the upcoming NFL season to whatever else.
This has nothing to do with the gender of the participants. You roast each other harder because you're not at risk of accidentally offending a person who loves them, not because there's something about women that makes them unable to handle that sort of humor. You talk about different interests because they're things that you happen to share that they don't, not because those interests are inherently defined by gender. For example, if one of your friends' wives was really into the NFL and happened to be around, you'd talk about the NFL just the same as if she wasn't there.
If FFXV wanted to have conversations among its main cast that revolved around activities that are traditionally male-dominated, all they have to do is include a female character who happens to like this thing, and nothing changes.
When my wife and her girlfriends are around without guys, they openly discuss the annoyances of menstruation and talk a lot more about sex ... I don't want to be part of discussions about how sucky it is to have your period, and my wife doesn't want to be part of discussions we might have about the specifics of how badly my balls hurt while I recovered from my vasectomy.
And these are problems with gender relations that have real consequences. The widespread disgust and misinformation regarding the female period is a direct result of guys refusing to be around it or any discussion of it. It wouldn't take more than a couple conversations before it stops being something super gross, much like how a couple with a newborn get over dirty diapers fairly quickly (or at least the severe reactions to the concept).
Similarly, each gender talking about sex to the exclusion of the other gender contributes to sexual misunderstandings and a lot of other bad things (very commonly: sexism).
That's not to say that every conversation ever should be perfectly okay if it includes your life partner -- that's a special sort of relationship that has a lot of unique attributes and connotations. But that doesn't mean the conversations can only maintain their integrity when it's gender-exclusive.
This isn't even realistic, as we're currently realizing that gender is a spectrum, not a binary, and that people are all over the place on that spectrum. It's highly unlikely that any given group of "men" or "women" even includes people who actually all have precisely the same gender. This ideology is also weirdly exclusive of gay people; if you're a group of people talking about having sex with women, why can't that group of people also include women who have sex with women, and vice-versa? If the FFXV bros want to talk about sex with women and that's somehow real important to the story, it should be able to maintain its integrity if it included lesbian and/or bisexual women in the conversation who are suitably open to talking about such things with close friends.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
That transparent overlay map is great too. Random side addition, I hope they give us a proper map for the great crystal this time. That shit is annoying without a guide. Of course, "annoying without a guide" is FFXII.txt.
No, women don't only talk openly about sex or their periods around other women because of problematic gender relations. They do it because women understand those things from a woman's perspective, and they want to talk about it with other women. Of course there are gender issues in the world. But if you're proposing that gender is not a real thing and men and women should not acknowledge their differences whatsoever and just pretend everybody is the exact same then I disagree completely. Men and women are equals in how much respect they deserve and how they should be treated, but we are different and it's okay to acknowledge that. Suggesting that my wife and our female friends should be totally cool with talking about how they feel about giving blowjobs or period farts or whatever else when me and our male friends are around is completely laughable. Would any of us care? No, but it's perfectly okay that they're only comfortable talking about that stuff with their girlfriends who share their perspective and experiences.
Not going to keep discussing this outside the context of final fantasy because that's not what this thread is for. In terms of FFXV, I personally wish the main cast had women too because it's my personal preference, but that's not the story they decided to tell. If the game is good it'll be good regardless, and meanwhile the rest of the video game industry is doing better every single day at releasing tons of games with kick ass women as main characters, villains, and everything else in between.
I mean, hearing somebody worried that FFXV is going to turn the FF franchise into dudebro central sounds just as silly to me as somebody who would've said while FFX-2 was in development "I worry that if FFX-2 is successful, every game is going to be an all female cast with no male diversity, filled with cheesy j-pop songs and about playing dress up."
FFXV is FFXV. The next game will be a different thing. This particular game's story is about a road trip of a group of guy friends, just like FFX-2 was a story about those 3 girls.
Like over half of the most popular FF characters of all time are female.
I really don't think they're just going to throw that away from here on out.
Now this does seem refreshing and something that would renew my interest in FF.
A thing I hate in JRPGs are male and females characters with no social circle of any kind. Especially males with no friends, make no effort to make them, don't talk to or with anyone but gather up an entire party and have chicks throwing themselves at them while they stare into space. And the girls who, in turn, have no social circle and have nothing better to do than throw themselves at a male protagonist. So I love the JRPG heroes who defy this. For example, Zidane, who is socially savvy, has large, established posse of friends, and demonstrates realistic wisdom and leadership skills, is my all time favorite JRPG character.
When a female character has a best friend in a JRPG, players go "ololol lesbians" and in this when a group of men are friends with each other they go "eww, bromance," because characters with typical realistic social circles are that uncommon in JRPGs.
I'm with you. As much as I do understand being sad that there are no playable female characters in this title, it also feels like it's doing something I haven't seen in an RPG before: focusing on a small group of people who are already friends. Sure, most JRPGs will have one or two party members know each other beforehand, but I can't think of one where the group is just made up of people with established relationships already.
Men and women can also be, you know, friends...
Of course they can. Shit, most of my close friends since high school have been women. I'm saying the entire concept of "the whole party is already friends" is something new. This particular story is about 4 male friends. They could have done a different story with different themes, certainly, but I don't take issue with the one they chose.
I mean, hearing somebody worried that FFXV is going to turn the FF franchise into dudebro central sounds just as silly to me as somebody who would've said while FFX-2 was in development "I worry that if FFX-2 is successful, every game is going to be an all female cast with no male diversity, filled with cheesy j-pop songs and about playing dress up."
FFXV is FFXV. The next game will be a different thing. This particular game's story is about a road trip of a group of guy friends, just like FFX-2 was a story about those 3 girls.
Like over half of the most popular FF characters of all time are female.
I really don't think they're just going to throw that away from here on out.
Now this does seem refreshing and something that would renew my interest in FF.
A thing I hate in JRPGs are male and females characters with no social circle of any kind. Especially males with no friends, make no effort to make them, don't talk to or with anyone but gather up an entire party and have chicks throwing themselves at them while they stare into space. And the girls who, in turn, have no social circle and have nothing better to do than throw themselves at a male protagonist. So I love the JRPG heroes who defy this. For example, Zidane, who is socially savvy, has large, established posse of friends, and demonstrates realistic wisdom and leadership skills, is my all time favorite JRPG character.
When a female character has a best friend in a JRPG, players go "ololol lesbians" and in this when a group of men are friends with each other they go "eww, bromance," because characters with typical realistic social circles are that uncommon in JRPGs.
I'm with you. As much as I do understand being sad that there are no playable female characters in this title, it also feels like it's doing something I haven't seen in an RPG before: focusing on a small group of people who are already friends. Sure, most JRPGs will have one or two party members know each other beforehand, but I can't think of one where the group is just made up of people with established relationships already.
Men and women can also be, you know, friends...
Of course they can. Shit, most of my close friends since high school have been women. I'm saying the entire concept of "the whole party is already friends" is something new. This particular story is about 4 male friends. They could have done a different story with different themes, certainly, but I don't take issue with the one they chose.
Sorry, I'm slightly confused. No one is upset that they are all friends. That's cool and all. It's the "they're all male" part, and the reasoning, that is a problem (with the main party). I feel like we are mauve talking past each other
But if you're proposing that gender is not a real thing and men and women should not acknowledge their differences whatsoever and just pretend everybody is the exact same then I disagree completely.
If that's what you got from my post then you aren't even reading it. I disagree with you completely, and I take personal affront to having my position be described as "completely laughable." Fuck right on off with that. At this point the topic has become too painful, so I'm bowing out.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
... this bit stands out from the rest of the post in a rather stark manner, and it seems to be coming from a fairly common misconception about why sexualization makes a lot of people uncomfortable. So I just want to address this idea, hopefully in a way that doesn't leave you feeling attacked...
I don't feel attacked. And I can see what you mean. To bring it right back on topic it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with Cidney's character if you could choose the level of 'sexiness' that she displayed. I can certainly appreciate having more control vs. less. But generally I don't expect that level of control from games. To be quite honest when I see Cidney's outfit I think "that's silly" but it's not a deal-breaker for me. If I see inappropriate armor on a guy or gal character, or see a weapon that's just being used completely unrealisitcally (like how 99% of sword just cleave through multiple baddies wearing heavy armor), I also think "that's silly" and don't get enjoyment out of that particular aspect of the game, but I can still appreciate the other parts of the experience. And I know that Cidney isn't your only problem with the game, but it's an example of what I see on the PA forums with a lot of frequency: I don't like this particular aspect of the game and therefore don't like the game as a whole. Only a lot of the time it comes off as 'I don't like this particular aspect of the game because it's bad/wrong, and therefore the game is bad/wrong' and sometimes brought further to 'people who like said game are also bad/wrong.' That's super oversimplifying the argument, and not meant as an accusation toward you in particular. But here is an example:
...For better or worse, they wanted XV to be about a group of guy friends. And yes, men are different when it's just men around, and women are different when it's just women around, period. The conversations you have in mixed company are different from those you have with just the guys or just the girls.
And nearly every one of those differences and conversations revolve around or are sourced from problematic gender relations and/or gender roles, which is precisely the sort of thing I like to get away from when I'm playing video games. If a game is going to delve into that territory, it should be doing so from a perspective of commentary where it's saying something useful, which is absolutely not what FFXV is going to be doing if its marketing is any indication.
Here Josh is making a point about how it's a common experience that men and women act differently in single sexed v. mixed sex groups and you point to the fact that it's a problem and so is it's inclusion in video games unless it's subverted in a good way. You may not be wrong, but this point that you're asserting is still up for debate as far as I know. My common experience is the same: men and women are different in some ways. What I learned as part of my sociolinguistics classes backed that up. The text from my human sexuality class supported this. I don't agree that this is wholly problematic or unnatural or completely a product of one's environment. As an example I just don't think that as many women are drawn to military service as men. Certainly there are a lot of reasons you could point to in the US. But looking at the Isreali Defense Force you could also draw some conclusions: in a country where military service is required and being in the military carries social prestige (and declining has a stigma) more women than men continue to opt out and fewer women stay in as a career. 51% of their officer corps is female, which is pretty awesome, but if you take a closer look at which roles that they perform it's heavily skewed towards combat support. There are a few roles that our outright denied to them, but even in the direct combat roles that are open to women they are a minority. This mirrors the distribution in the US forces; services and administrative roles are dominated by women. Intelligence has a fair mix. Women are a minority in flying units, and in fighter units there are so few that when they fly together it makes headlines.
This circles back around to my original comment of American woman having more hang-ups that then Japanese. Like I said, it's not just about sex. I feel like there's a strong social push right now to assert that men and women are the same. Not just equal, but completely the same. We as a society want to divorce the thought that certain beliefs, tendencies, or roles are attached to certain genders. And I don't disagree most of the time; cooking and cleaning aren't female activities. Bachelorette pads can be just as messy as their counterparts. But on a whole do women generally care more about the overall appearance of their house? That's certainly been my experience. And I say that as the one who does the majority of the cooking and cleaning in my current relationship.
Cidney bugs me less because of the outfit itself (though that's still quite dumb), but more because of the attitude the team (or at least the head guy doing responses to fans, I suppose) have taken in the wake of it. Stuff like "don't worry, she'll just be there to fix the car, not mess with the group dynamic", or "why are people saying they want female party members, but are also complaining about Cidney's outfit being too sexy", and stuff like that.
It's entirely possible that some of that was mistranslated, or there was some sort of change in the time that I haven't really been watching trailers, but it's the kind of thing that makes me think "do I really want to give money to this team?"
.
I mean, hearing somebody worried that FFXV is going to turn the FF franchise into dudebro central sounds just as silly to me as somebody who would've said while FFX-2 was in development "I worry that if FFX-2 is successful, every game is going to be an all female cast with no male diversity, filled with cheesy j-pop songs and about playing dress up."
FFXV is FFXV. The next game will be a different thing. This particular game's story is about a road trip of a group of guy friends, just like FFX-2 was a story about those 3 girls.
Like over half of the most popular FF characters of all time are female.
I really don't think they're just going to throw that away from here on out.
Now this does seem refreshing and something that would renew my interest in FF.
A thing I hate in JRPGs are male and females characters with no social circle of any kind. Especially males with no friends, make no effort to make them, don't talk to or with anyone but gather up an entire party and have chicks throwing themselves at them while they stare into space. And the girls who, in turn, have no social circle and have nothing better to do than throw themselves at a male protagonist. So I love the JRPG heroes who defy this. For example, Zidane, who is socially savvy, has large, established posse of friends, and demonstrates realistic wisdom and leadership skills, is my all time favorite JRPG character.
When a female character has a best friend in a JRPG, players go "ololol lesbians" and in this when a group of men are friends with each other they go "eww, bromance," because characters with typical realistic social circles are that uncommon in JRPGs.
I'm with you. As much as I do understand being sad that there are no playable female characters in this title, it also feels like it's doing something I haven't seen in an RPG before: focusing on a small group of people who are already friends. Sure, most JRPGs will have one or two party members know each other beforehand, but I can't think of one where the group is just made up of people with established relationships already.
Men and women can also be, you know, friends...
Of course they can. Shit, most of my close friends since high school have been women. I'm saying the entire concept of "the whole party is already friends" is something new. This particular story is about 4 male friends. They could have done a different story with different themes, certainly, but I don't take issue with the one they chose.
Sorry, I'm slightly confused. No one is upset that they are all friends. That's cool and all. It's the "they're all male" part, and the reasoning, that is a problem (with the main party). I feel like we are mauve talking past each other
No, I understand what people are upset about. I'm saying the "they're all friends" thing is itself unique enough that I'm excited about, regardless of the makeup of that group of friends.
There is a stark difference between statistical trends and exclusionary differences. I expect there is a statistical trend that shooter games are preferred more by men than women. Going from there to "we can't have a woman character talking about shooter games with her guy friends because women don't like shooter games" is clearly a problem. It transforms a trend into a gender role. It erases every woman that does enjoy shooters, and it reinforces all environmental factors that contribute to the difference in the first place. This is why Square's argument is so bankrupt.
Asserting that men and women are the same effectively erases trans people, which would be an egregiously self-defeating thing for me to do. That doesn't mean veering all the way toward "every man and woman is different from each other in <x> manner" is appropriate either.
Anyway I have no problem with people who like FFXV. I like plenty of problematic things myself. I wouldn't be able to play many video games otherwise.
I said I was bowing out of the topic, but this felt like a different take and from a different user, so I was able to post without anger making me unable to type words properly.
Fleur de Alys on
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
Brotherhood ep2 was pretty nice. I like Prompto more now. The kid has a good heart.
And sadly some fat apologists are hilariously already attacking it because it shows that previously large as a kid Prompto got motivated and trained hard to become skinny and athletic.
I mean, hearing somebody worried that FFXV is going to turn the FF franchise into dudebro central sounds just as silly to me as somebody who would've said while FFX-2 was in development "I worry that if FFX-2 is successful, every game is going to be an all female cast with no male diversity, filled with cheesy j-pop songs and about playing dress up."
FFXV is FFXV. The next game will be a different thing. This particular game's story is about a road trip of a group of guy friends, just like FFX-2 was a story about those 3 girls.
Like over half of the most popular FF characters of all time are female.
I really don't think they're just going to throw that away from here on out.
Now this does seem refreshing and something that would renew my interest in FF.
A thing I hate in JRPGs are male and females characters with no social circle of any kind. Especially males with no friends, make no effort to make them, don't talk to or with anyone but gather up an entire party and have chicks throwing themselves at them while they stare into space. And the girls who, in turn, have no social circle and have nothing better to do than throw themselves at a male protagonist. So I love the JRPG heroes who defy this. For example, Zidane, who is socially savvy, has large, established posse of friends, and demonstrates realistic wisdom and leadership skills, is my all time favorite JRPG character.
When a female character has a best friend in a JRPG, players go "ololol lesbians" and in this when a group of men are friends with each other they go "eww, bromance," because characters with typical realistic social circles are that uncommon in JRPGs.
One of the many criticisms I had with FFXII.
In past FFs, the heroines in the party would form their own bonds of friendship alongside whatever love interests they may or may not have. I continue to praise FFVII for not making Tifa and Aerith persistently "catty" with each other due to falling for the same guy, in addition to familial bonds like Yuna/Rikku and (arguably) Garnet and Eiko.
In FFXII Ashe and Penelo don't say a single goddamn word to each other. I bet Ashe wouldn't remember her name if they met again years later.
That's because in FFXII Vaan and Penelo might as well not exist being added into the story last minute after most of the story, banter, and dialog was already written.
I mean, hearing somebody worried that FFXV is going to turn the FF franchise into dudebro central sounds just as silly to me as somebody who would've said while FFX-2 was in development "I worry that if FFX-2 is successful, every game is going to be an all female cast with no male diversity, filled with cheesy j-pop songs and about playing dress up."
FFXV is FFXV. The next game will be a different thing. This particular game's story is about a road trip of a group of guy friends, just like FFX-2 was a story about those 3 girls.
Like over half of the most popular FF characters of all time are female.
I really don't think they're just going to throw that away from here on out.
Now this does seem refreshing and something that would renew my interest in FF.
A thing I hate in JRPGs are male and females characters with no social circle of any kind. Especially males with no friends, make no effort to make them, don't talk to or with anyone but gather up an entire party and have chicks throwing themselves at them while they stare into space. And the girls who, in turn, have no social circle and have nothing better to do than throw themselves at a male protagonist. So I love the JRPG heroes who defy this. For example, Zidane, who is socially savvy, has large, established posse of friends, and demonstrates realistic wisdom and leadership skills, is my all time favorite JRPG character.
When a female character has a best friend in a JRPG, players go "ololol lesbians" and in this when a group of men are friends with each other they go "eww, bromance," because characters with typical realistic social circles are that uncommon in JRPGs.
One of the many criticisms I had with FFXII.
In past FFs, the heroines in the party would form their own bonds of friendship alongside whatever love interests they may or may not have. I continue to praise FFVII for not making Tifa and Aerith persistently "catty" with each other due to falling for the same guy, in addition to familial bonds like Yuna/Rikku and (arguably) Garnet and Eiko.
In FFXII Ashe and Penelo don't say a single goddamn word to each other. I bet Ashe wouldn't remember her name if they met again years later.
Does anyone say anything to Penelo post-rescue? Even Vaan barely gets more than the occasional "Shut up Vaan". Other than Fran/Balthier, I feel like XII's party is all about being there for their own individual reasons. They're not friends, but united by purpose.
SE considering making another game using the gambit system from FF12.
FF12's and Dragon Age 2's gambits were so good. I'd love to see more games with AI-controlled party members use Gambits. It takes out the frustration.
I will always wonder why Bioware replaced their amazing evolution of the Gambit system with the shitty and horrible 'your AI is retarded and will suicide repeatedly' system they used for DA:I.
SE considering making another game using the gambit system from FF12.
FF12's and Dragon Age 2's gambits were so good. I'd love to see more games with AI-controlled party members use Gambits. It takes out the frustration.
I will always wonder why Bioware replaced their amazing evolution of the Gambit system with the shitty and horrible 'your AI is retarded and will suicide repeatedly' system they used for DA:I.
Yeah, I love "Program the AI your way, manually control who/when you choose to" systems. It makes me feel a bit closer to the RPG.
I mean, hearing somebody worried that FFXV is going to turn the FF franchise into dudebro central sounds just as silly to me as somebody who would've said while FFX-2 was in development "I worry that if FFX-2 is successful, every game is going to be an all female cast with no male diversity, filled with cheesy j-pop songs and about playing dress up."
FFXV is FFXV. The next game will be a different thing. This particular game's story is about a road trip of a group of guy friends, just like FFX-2 was a story about those 3 girls.
Like over half of the most popular FF characters of all time are female.
I really don't think they're just going to throw that away from here on out.
Now this does seem refreshing and something that would renew my interest in FF.
A thing I hate in JRPGs are male and females characters with no social circle of any kind. Especially males with no friends, make no effort to make them, don't talk to or with anyone but gather up an entire party and have chicks throwing themselves at them while they stare into space. And the girls who, in turn, have no social circle and have nothing better to do than throw themselves at a male protagonist. So I love the JRPG heroes who defy this. For example, Zidane, who is socially savvy, has large, established posse of friends, and demonstrates realistic wisdom and leadership skills, is my all time favorite JRPG character.
When a female character has a best friend in a JRPG, players go "ololol lesbians" and in this when a group of men are friends with each other they go "eww, bromance," because characters with typical realistic social circles are that uncommon in JRPGs.
One of the many criticisms I had with FFXII.
In past FFs, the heroines in the party would form their own bonds of friendship alongside whatever love interests they may or may not have. I continue to praise FFVII for not making Tifa and Aerith persistently "catty" with each other due to falling for the same guy, in addition to familial bonds like Yuna/Rikku and (arguably) Garnet and Eiko.
In FFXII Ashe and Penelo don't say a single goddamn word to each other. I bet Ashe wouldn't remember her name if they met again years later.
Does anyone say anything to Penelo post-rescue? Even Vaan barely gets more than the occasional "Shut up Vaan". Other than Fran/Balthier, I feel like XII's party is all about being there for their own individual reasons. They're not friends, but united by purpose.
Fran and Penelo have a couple of interactions, and that's kind of it.
The party interaction in FFXII sucks hard. I'm excited for Zodiac Arc, but I'm not looking forward to being disappointed about that aspect again.
... this bit stands out from the rest of the post in a rather stark manner, and it seems to be coming from a fairly common misconception about why sexualization makes a lot of people uncomfortable. So I just want to address this idea, hopefully in a way that doesn't leave you feeling attacked...
I don't feel attacked. And I can see what you mean. To bring it right back on topic it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with Cidney's character if you could choose the level of 'sexiness' that she displayed. I can certainly appreciate having more control vs. less. But generally I don't expect that level of control from games. To be quite honest when I see Cidney's outfit I think "that's silly" but it's not a deal-breaker for me. If I see inappropriate armor on a guy or gal character, or see a weapon that's just being used completely unrealisitcally (like how 99% of sword just cleave through multiple baddies wearing heavy armor), I also think "that's silly" and don't get enjoyment out of that particular aspect of the game, but I can still appreciate the other parts of the experience. And I know that Cidney isn't your only problem with the game, but it's an example of what I see on the PA forums with a lot of frequency: I don't like this particular aspect of the game and therefore don't like the game as a whole. Only a lot of the time it comes off as 'I don't like this particular aspect of the game because it's bad/wrong, and therefore the game is bad/wrong' and sometimes brought further to 'people who like said game are also bad/wrong.' That's super oversimplifying the argument, and not meant as an accusation toward you in particular. But here is an example:
...For better or worse, they wanted XV to be about a group of guy friends. And yes, men are different when it's just men around, and women are different when it's just women around, period. The conversations you have in mixed company are different from those you have with just the guys or just the girls.
And nearly every one of those differences and conversations revolve around or are sourced from problematic gender relations and/or gender roles, which is precisely the sort of thing I like to get away from when I'm playing video games. If a game is going to delve into that territory, it should be doing so from a perspective of commentary where it's saying something useful, which is absolutely not what FFXV is going to be doing if its marketing is any indication.
Here Josh is making a point about how it's a common experience that men and women act differently in single sexed v. mixed sex groups and you point to the fact that it's a problem and so is it's inclusion in video games unless it's subverted in a good way. You may not be wrong, but this point that you're asserting is still up for debate as far as I know. My common experience is the same: men and women are different in some ways. What I learned as part of my sociolinguistics classes backed that up. The text from my human sexuality class supported this. I don't agree that this is wholly problematic or unnatural or completely a product of one's environment. As an example I just don't think that as many women are drawn to military service as men. Certainly there are a lot of reasons you could point to in the US. But looking at the Isreali Defense Force you could also draw some conclusions: in a country where military service is required and being in the military carries social prestige (and declining has a stigma) more women than men continue to opt out and fewer women stay in as a career. 51% of their officer corps is female, which is pretty awesome, but if you take a closer look at which roles that they perform it's heavily skewed towards combat support. There are a few roles that our outright denied to them, but even in the direct combat roles that are open to women they are a minority. This mirrors the distribution in the US forces; services and administrative roles are dominated by women. Intelligence has a fair mix. Women are a minority in flying units, and in fighter units there are so few that when they fly together it makes headlines.
This circles back around to my original comment of American woman having more hang-ups that then Japanese. Like I said, it's not just about sex. I feel like there's a strong social push right now to assert that men and women are the same. Not just equal, but completely the same. We as a society want to divorce the thought that certain beliefs, tendencies, or roles are attached to certain genders. And I don't disagree most of the time; cooking and cleaning aren't female activities. Bachelorette pads can be just as messy as their counterparts. But on a whole do women generally care more about the overall appearance of their house? That's certainly been my experience. And I say that as the one who does the majority of the cooking and cleaning in my current relationship.
This is because of cultural reinforcement.
Genetically speaking, none of the things being discussed are different between the males and females outside of periods and erections.
The concepts of man and of woman are already divorced from male and female and always will be. Women develop mindsets because of cultural indoctrination, same as men.
So men and women aren't the same, no, but males and females pretty much are. Given a tabula rasa and no cultural indoctrination a male or a female could develop any traits or mindsets across our modern concept of male and female.
In other words, men and women aren't necessarily different. They are only different because of cultural influence.
... this bit stands out from the rest of the post in a rather stark manner, and it seems to be coming from a fairly common misconception about why sexualization makes a lot of people uncomfortable. So I just want to address this idea, hopefully in a way that doesn't leave you feeling attacked...
I don't feel attacked. And I can see what you mean. To bring it right back on topic it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with Cidney's character if you could choose the level of 'sexiness' that she displayed. I can certainly appreciate having more control vs. less. But generally I don't expect that level of control from games. To be quite honest when I see Cidney's outfit I think "that's silly" but it's not a deal-breaker for me. If I see inappropriate armor on a guy or gal character, or see a weapon that's just being used completely unrealisitcally (like how 99% of sword just cleave through multiple baddies wearing heavy armor), I also think "that's silly" and don't get enjoyment out of that particular aspect of the game, but I can still appreciate the other parts of the experience. And I know that Cidney isn't your only problem with the game, but it's an example of what I see on the PA forums with a lot of frequency: I don't like this particular aspect of the game and therefore don't like the game as a whole. Only a lot of the time it comes off as 'I don't like this particular aspect of the game because it's bad/wrong, and therefore the game is bad/wrong' and sometimes brought further to 'people who like said game are also bad/wrong.' That's super oversimplifying the argument, and not meant as an accusation toward you in particular. But here is an example:
...For better or worse, they wanted XV to be about a group of guy friends. And yes, men are different when it's just men around, and women are different when it's just women around, period. The conversations you have in mixed company are different from those you have with just the guys or just the girls.
And nearly every one of those differences and conversations revolve around or are sourced from problematic gender relations and/or gender roles, which is precisely the sort of thing I like to get away from when I'm playing video games. If a game is going to delve into that territory, it should be doing so from a perspective of commentary where it's saying something useful, which is absolutely not what FFXV is going to be doing if its marketing is any indication.
Here Josh is making a point about how it's a common experience that men and women act differently in single sexed v. mixed sex groups and you point to the fact that it's a problem and so is it's inclusion in video games unless it's subverted in a good way. You may not be wrong, but this point that you're asserting is still up for debate as far as I know. My common experience is the same: men and women are different in some ways. What I learned as part of my sociolinguistics classes backed that up. The text from my human sexuality class supported this. I don't agree that this is wholly problematic or unnatural or completely a product of one's environment. As an example I just don't think that as many women are drawn to military service as men. Certainly there are a lot of reasons you could point to in the US. But looking at the Isreali Defense Force you could also draw some conclusions: in a country where military service is required and being in the military carries social prestige (and declining has a stigma) more women than men continue to opt out and fewer women stay in as a career. 51% of their officer corps is female, which is pretty awesome, but if you take a closer look at which roles that they perform it's heavily skewed towards combat support. There are a few roles that our outright denied to them, but even in the direct combat roles that are open to women they are a minority. This mirrors the distribution in the US forces; services and administrative roles are dominated by women. Intelligence has a fair mix. Women are a minority in flying units, and in fighter units there are so few that when they fly together it makes headlines.
This circles back around to my original comment of American woman having more hang-ups that then Japanese. Like I said, it's not just about sex. I feel like there's a strong social push right now to assert that men and women are the same. Not just equal, but completely the same. We as a society want to divorce the thought that certain beliefs, tendencies, or roles are attached to certain genders. And I don't disagree most of the time; cooking and cleaning aren't female activities. Bachelorette pads can be just as messy as their counterparts. But on a whole do women generally care more about the overall appearance of their house? That's certainly been my experience. And I say that as the one who does the majority of the cooking and cleaning in my current relationship.
This is because of cultural reinforcement.
Genetically speaking, none of the things being discussed are different between the males and females outside of periods and erections.
The concepts of man and of woman are already divorced from male and female and always will be. Women develop mindsets because of cultural indoctrination, same as men.
So men and women aren't the same, no, but males and females pretty much are. Given a tabula rasa and no cultural indoctrination a male or a female could develop any traits or mindsets across our modern concept of male and female.
In other words, men and women aren't necessarily different. They are only different because of cultural influence.
I'll admit, my experience and knowledge in this area are VERY limited, but it seems unlikely to me that males and females have virtually no innate differences in their behavioral tendencies. Men and women have different hormone balances, and hormones influence behavior. Trans people report differences in their behavior when they undergo HRT. I don't understand how men and women can be the same if those things hold true.
But of course, that's just my thoughts based off of no focused study. Feel free to inform me
... this bit stands out from the rest of the post in a rather stark manner, and it seems to be coming from a fairly common misconception about why sexualization makes a lot of people uncomfortable. So I just want to address this idea, hopefully in a way that doesn't leave you feeling attacked...
I don't feel attacked. And I can see what you mean. To bring it right back on topic it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with Cidney's character if you could choose the level of 'sexiness' that she displayed. I can certainly appreciate having more control vs. less. But generally I don't expect that level of control from games. To be quite honest when I see Cidney's outfit I think "that's silly" but it's not a deal-breaker for me. If I see inappropriate armor on a guy or gal character, or see a weapon that's just being used completely unrealisitcally (like how 99% of sword just cleave through multiple baddies wearing heavy armor), I also think "that's silly" and don't get enjoyment out of that particular aspect of the game, but I can still appreciate the other parts of the experience. And I know that Cidney isn't your only problem with the game, but it's an example of what I see on the PA forums with a lot of frequency: I don't like this particular aspect of the game and therefore don't like the game as a whole. Only a lot of the time it comes off as 'I don't like this particular aspect of the game because it's bad/wrong, and therefore the game is bad/wrong' and sometimes brought further to 'people who like said game are also bad/wrong.' That's super oversimplifying the argument, and not meant as an accusation toward you in particular. But here is an example:
...For better or worse, they wanted XV to be about a group of guy friends. And yes, men are different when it's just men around, and women are different when it's just women around, period. The conversations you have in mixed company are different from those you have with just the guys or just the girls.
And nearly every one of those differences and conversations revolve around or are sourced from problematic gender relations and/or gender roles, which is precisely the sort of thing I like to get away from when I'm playing video games. If a game is going to delve into that territory, it should be doing so from a perspective of commentary where it's saying something useful, which is absolutely not what FFXV is going to be doing if its marketing is any indication.
Here Josh is making a point about how it's a common experience that men and women act differently in single sexed v. mixed sex groups and you point to the fact that it's a problem and so is it's inclusion in video games unless it's subverted in a good way. You may not be wrong, but this point that you're asserting is still up for debate as far as I know. My common experience is the same: men and women are different in some ways. What I learned as part of my sociolinguistics classes backed that up. The text from my human sexuality class supported this. I don't agree that this is wholly problematic or unnatural or completely a product of one's environment. As an example I just don't think that as many women are drawn to military service as men. Certainly there are a lot of reasons you could point to in the US. But looking at the Isreali Defense Force you could also draw some conclusions: in a country where military service is required and being in the military carries social prestige (and declining has a stigma) more women than men continue to opt out and fewer women stay in as a career. 51% of their officer corps is female, which is pretty awesome, but if you take a closer look at which roles that they perform it's heavily skewed towards combat support. There are a few roles that our outright denied to them, but even in the direct combat roles that are open to women they are a minority. This mirrors the distribution in the US forces; services and administrative roles are dominated by women. Intelligence has a fair mix. Women are a minority in flying units, and in fighter units there are so few that when they fly together it makes headlines.
This circles back around to my original comment of American woman having more hang-ups that then Japanese. Like I said, it's not just about sex. I feel like there's a strong social push right now to assert that men and women are the same. Not just equal, but completely the same. We as a society want to divorce the thought that certain beliefs, tendencies, or roles are attached to certain genders. And I don't disagree most of the time; cooking and cleaning aren't female activities. Bachelorette pads can be just as messy as their counterparts. But on a whole do women generally care more about the overall appearance of their house? That's certainly been my experience. And I say that as the one who does the majority of the cooking and cleaning in my current relationship.
This is because of cultural reinforcement.
Genetically speaking, none of the things being discussed are different between the males and females outside of periods and erections.
The concepts of man and of woman are already divorced from male and female and always will be. Women develop mindsets because of cultural indoctrination, same as men.
So men and women aren't the same, no, but males and females pretty much are. Given a tabula rasa and no cultural indoctrination a male or a female could develop any traits or mindsets across our modern concept of male and female.
In other words, men and women aren't necessarily different. They are only different because of cultural influence.
I'll admit, my experience and knowledge in this area are VERY limited, but it seems unlikely to me that males and females have virtually no innate differences in their behavioral tendencies. Men and women have different hormone balances, and hormones influence behavior. Trans people report differences in their behavior when they undergo HRT. I don't understand how men and women can be the same if those things hold true.
But of course, that's just my thoughts based off of no focused study. Feel free to inform me
This is veering wildly off-topic and should probably move into PMs in terms of future questions (I am not a mod). A short answer is that people within a given sex don't all have the same chemical composition. There are statistical differences, but there is overlap. You can have a particular cis man who has less testosterone than a particular cis woman, for instance. And many of the more recognizable differences (like, say, hobby choices) are trivially shown to be more attributable to culture than anything else (by examining trend differences across cultures and/or through time).
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
... this bit stands out from the rest of the post in a rather stark manner, and it seems to be coming from a fairly common misconception about why sexualization makes a lot of people uncomfortable. So I just want to address this idea, hopefully in a way that doesn't leave you feeling attacked...
I don't feel attacked. And I can see what you mean. To bring it right back on topic it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with Cidney's character if you could choose the level of 'sexiness' that she displayed. I can certainly appreciate having more control vs. less. But generally I don't expect that level of control from games. To be quite honest when I see Cidney's outfit I think "that's silly" but it's not a deal-breaker for me. If I see inappropriate armor on a guy or gal character, or see a weapon that's just being used completely unrealisitcally (like how 99% of sword just cleave through multiple baddies wearing heavy armor), I also think "that's silly" and don't get enjoyment out of that particular aspect of the game, but I can still appreciate the other parts of the experience. And I know that Cidney isn't your only problem with the game, but it's an example of what I see on the PA forums with a lot of frequency: I don't like this particular aspect of the game and therefore don't like the game as a whole. Only a lot of the time it comes off as 'I don't like this particular aspect of the game because it's bad/wrong, and therefore the game is bad/wrong' and sometimes brought further to 'people who like said game are also bad/wrong.' That's super oversimplifying the argument, and not meant as an accusation toward you in particular. But here is an example:
...For better or worse, they wanted XV to be about a group of guy friends. And yes, men are different when it's just men around, and women are different when it's just women around, period. The conversations you have in mixed company are different from those you have with just the guys or just the girls.
And nearly every one of those differences and conversations revolve around or are sourced from problematic gender relations and/or gender roles, which is precisely the sort of thing I like to get away from when I'm playing video games. If a game is going to delve into that territory, it should be doing so from a perspective of commentary where it's saying something useful, which is absolutely not what FFXV is going to be doing if its marketing is any indication.
Here Josh is making a point about how it's a common experience that men and women act differently in single sexed v. mixed sex groups and you point to the fact that it's a problem and so is it's inclusion in video games unless it's subverted in a good way. You may not be wrong, but this point that you're asserting is still up for debate as far as I know. My common experience is the same: men and women are different in some ways. What I learned as part of my sociolinguistics classes backed that up. The text from my human sexuality class supported this. I don't agree that this is wholly problematic or unnatural or completely a product of one's environment. As an example I just don't think that as many women are drawn to military service as men. Certainly there are a lot of reasons you could point to in the US. But looking at the Isreali Defense Force you could also draw some conclusions: in a country where military service is required and being in the military carries social prestige (and declining has a stigma) more women than men continue to opt out and fewer women stay in as a career. 51% of their officer corps is female, which is pretty awesome, but if you take a closer look at which roles that they perform it's heavily skewed towards combat support. There are a few roles that our outright denied to them, but even in the direct combat roles that are open to women they are a minority. This mirrors the distribution in the US forces; services and administrative roles are dominated by women. Intelligence has a fair mix. Women are a minority in flying units, and in fighter units there are so few that when they fly together it makes headlines.
This circles back around to my original comment of American woman having more hang-ups that then Japanese. Like I said, it's not just about sex. I feel like there's a strong social push right now to assert that men and women are the same. Not just equal, but completely the same. We as a society want to divorce the thought that certain beliefs, tendencies, or roles are attached to certain genders. And I don't disagree most of the time; cooking and cleaning aren't female activities. Bachelorette pads can be just as messy as their counterparts. But on a whole do women generally care more about the overall appearance of their house? That's certainly been my experience. And I say that as the one who does the majority of the cooking and cleaning in my current relationship.
This is because of cultural reinforcement.
Genetically speaking, none of the things being discussed are different between the males and females outside of periods and erections.
The concepts of man and of woman are already divorced from male and female and always will be. Women develop mindsets because of cultural indoctrination, same as men.
So men and women aren't the same, no, but males and females pretty much are. Given a tabula rasa and no cultural indoctrination a male or a female could develop any traits or mindsets across our modern concept of male and female.
In other words, men and women aren't necessarily different. They are only different because of cultural influence.
I'll admit, my experience and knowledge in this area are VERY limited, but it seems unlikely to me that males and females have virtually no innate differences in their behavioral tendencies. Men and women have different hormone balances, and hormones influence behavior. Trans people report differences in their behavior when they undergo HRT. I don't understand how men and women can be the same if those things hold true.
But of course, that's just my thoughts based off of no focused study. Feel free to inform me
This is veering wildly off-topic and should probably move into PMs in terms of future questions (I am not a mod). A short answer is that people within a given sex don't all have the same chemical composition. There are statistical differences, but there is overlap. You can have a particular cis man who has less testosterone than a particular cis woman, for instance. And many of the more recognizable differences (like, say, hobby choices) are trivially shown to be more attributable to culture than anything else (by examining trend differences across cultures and/or through time).
A man who has less test than a woman is in bad need of a doctor. Normal test levels for a man on average will be 10 times higher. A man on the very low end of normal test will still have 3 times as much as a woman on the high end of normal production.
Hobbies are not based on sex, and I don't think anybody said they were, but men and women have very different biology, and yes there are big time behavioral impacts from hormones.
Hormones are a crazy thing. I remember at my wedding, my Dad had not yet taken care of his low test problem, and he absolutely could not control himself weeping during the ceremony.
We can all like final fantasy though, that's for sure.
I mean, hearing somebody worried that FFXV is going to turn the FF franchise into dudebro central sounds just as silly to me as somebody who would've said while FFX-2 was in development "I worry that if FFX-2 is successful, every game is going to be an all female cast with no male diversity, filled with cheesy j-pop songs and about playing dress up."
FFXV is FFXV. The next game will be a different thing. This particular game's story is about a road trip of a group of guy friends, just like FFX-2 was a story about those 3 girls.
Like over half of the most popular FF characters of all time are female.
I really don't think they're just going to throw that away from here on out.
Now this does seem refreshing and something that would renew my interest in FF.
A thing I hate in JRPGs are male and females characters with no social circle of any kind. Especially males with no friends, make no effort to make them, don't talk to or with anyone but gather up an entire party and have chicks throwing themselves at them while they stare into space. And the girls who, in turn, have no social circle and have nothing better to do than throw themselves at a male protagonist. So I love the JRPG heroes who defy this. For example, Zidane, who is socially savvy, has large, established posse of friends, and demonstrates realistic wisdom and leadership skills, is my all time favorite JRPG character.
When a female character has a best friend in a JRPG, players go "ololol lesbians" and in this when a group of men are friends with each other they go "eww, bromance," because characters with typical realistic social circles are that uncommon in JRPGs.
One of the many criticisms I had with FFXII.
In past FFs, the heroines in the party would form their own bonds of friendship alongside whatever love interests they may or may not have. I continue to praise FFVII for not making Tifa and Aerith persistently "catty" with each other due to falling for the same guy, in addition to familial bonds like Yuna/Rikku and (arguably) Garnet and Eiko.
In FFXII Ashe and Penelo don't say a single goddamn word to each other. I bet Ashe wouldn't remember her name if they met again years later.
It might because of FFVII's age, but found Tifa and Aerith to be the opposite extreme of hostility, in which they are assumed to be friends neither they or Cloud need or want to have the awkward but necessary talk about it. It becomes most obvious in the final temple when Cait Sith reads Aerith's fortune and Tifa's in the party, she'll stand in the corner and make generic grumpy animations while Cloud, Aerith and Cait Sith pretend she's not there. It feels almost like its cowardly writing.
P4A and Persona's 4 animation counterpart singlehandedly turned me off from JRPGs for a while. They chopped Yu Martystukami's balls off then paraded him around like he's he's so sexy and swag, staring into space, not talking to girls like a baller. Yet the only female he can directly converse with is Nanako. He can't talk about the weather with a female because ololol waifu war! Its the perfect representation of everything wrong with JRPG protagonists.
I got to Exdeath without problems, but my team was too weak to survive Almagest. I realized I could just jump over it to survive, but I decided I'd like to have my team alive through it without having to run 4 jumps, so I grinded up to level 43 which put everyone but Lenna (as Time Mage) safely within survival range. After that is was just getting lucky with Grand Cross attacks (my time attempt resulted in Lenna silenced) and crossing my fingers that Meteor rolled decent damage and Bartz's Rapid Fire shots didn't go too wide. Almost all of the pieces died within 5 turns of each other.
So let's talk about Montblanc. He is a Moogle in FFXII and also in FFTA. He is the greatest Moogle ever. Yes, even greater than Mog.
I'd love to see X|V add Montblanc style moogles in the next expansion. Shit, maybe make them a new playable race or something. The existing VI style moogles are cute and all, but get annoying quickly.
... this bit stands out from the rest of the post in a rather stark manner, and it seems to be coming from a fairly common misconception about why sexualization makes a lot of people uncomfortable. So I just want to address this idea, hopefully in a way that doesn't leave you feeling attacked...
I don't feel attacked. And I can see what you mean. To bring it right back on topic it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with Cidney's character if you could choose the level of 'sexiness' that she displayed. I can certainly appreciate having more control vs. less. But generally I don't expect that level of control from games. To be quite honest when I see Cidney's outfit I think "that's silly" but it's not a deal-breaker for me. If I see inappropriate armor on a guy or gal character, or see a weapon that's just being used completely unrealisitcally (like how 99% of sword just cleave through multiple baddies wearing heavy armor), I also think "that's silly" and don't get enjoyment out of that particular aspect of the game, but I can still appreciate the other parts of the experience. And I know that Cidney isn't your only problem with the game, but it's an example of what I see on the PA forums with a lot of frequency: I don't like this particular aspect of the game and therefore don't like the game as a whole. Only a lot of the time it comes off as 'I don't like this particular aspect of the game because it's bad/wrong, and therefore the game is bad/wrong' and sometimes brought further to 'people who like said game are also bad/wrong.' That's super oversimplifying the argument, and not meant as an accusation toward you in particular. But here is an example:
...For better or worse, they wanted XV to be about a group of guy friends. And yes, men are different when it's just men around, and women are different when it's just women around, period. The conversations you have in mixed company are different from those you have with just the guys or just the girls.
And nearly every one of those differences and conversations revolve around or are sourced from problematic gender relations and/or gender roles, which is precisely the sort of thing I like to get away from when I'm playing video games. If a game is going to delve into that territory, it should be doing so from a perspective of commentary where it's saying something useful, which is absolutely not what FFXV is going to be doing if its marketing is any indication.
Here Josh is making a point about how it's a common experience that men and women act differently in single sexed v. mixed sex groups and you point to the fact that it's a problem and so is it's inclusion in video games unless it's subverted in a good way. You may not be wrong, but this point that you're asserting is still up for debate as far as I know. My common experience is the same: men and women are different in some ways. What I learned as part of my sociolinguistics classes backed that up. The text from my human sexuality class supported this. I don't agree that this is wholly problematic or unnatural or completely a product of one's environment. As an example I just don't think that as many women are drawn to military service as men. Certainly there are a lot of reasons you could point to in the US. But looking at the Isreali Defense Force you could also draw some conclusions: in a country where military service is required and being in the military carries social prestige (and declining has a stigma) more women than men continue to opt out and fewer women stay in as a career. 51% of their officer corps is female, which is pretty awesome, but if you take a closer look at which roles that they perform it's heavily skewed towards combat support. There are a few roles that our outright denied to them, but even in the direct combat roles that are open to women they are a minority. This mirrors the distribution in the US forces; services and administrative roles are dominated by women. Intelligence has a fair mix. Women are a minority in flying units, and in fighter units there are so few that when they fly together it makes headlines.
This circles back around to my original comment of American woman having more hang-ups that then Japanese. Like I said, it's not just about sex. I feel like there's a strong social push right now to assert that men and women are the same. Not just equal, but completely the same. We as a society want to divorce the thought that certain beliefs, tendencies, or roles are attached to certain genders. And I don't disagree most of the time; cooking and cleaning aren't female activities. Bachelorette pads can be just as messy as their counterparts. But on a whole do women generally care more about the overall appearance of their house? That's certainly been my experience. And I say that as the one who does the majority of the cooking and cleaning in my current relationship.
This is because of cultural reinforcement.
Genetically speaking, none of the things being discussed are different between the males and females outside of periods and erections.
The concepts of man and of woman are already divorced from male and female and always will be. Women develop mindsets because of cultural indoctrination, same as men.
So men and women aren't the same, no, but males and females pretty much are. Given a tabula rasa and no cultural indoctrination a male or a female could develop any traits or mindsets across our modern concept of male and female.
In other words, men and women aren't necessarily different. They are only different because of cultural influence.
I would caution that this is hotly debated in the scientific community.
Posts
I think we're going to fundamentally disagree here, and the conversation about it would get way off Final Fantasy haha.
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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If FFXV wanted to have conversations among its main cast that revolved around activities that are traditionally male-dominated, all they have to do is include a female character who happens to like this thing, and nothing changes.
And these are problems with gender relations that have real consequences. The widespread disgust and misinformation regarding the female period is a direct result of guys refusing to be around it or any discussion of it. It wouldn't take more than a couple conversations before it stops being something super gross, much like how a couple with a newborn get over dirty diapers fairly quickly (or at least the severe reactions to the concept).
Similarly, each gender talking about sex to the exclusion of the other gender contributes to sexual misunderstandings and a lot of other bad things (very commonly: sexism).
That's not to say that every conversation ever should be perfectly okay if it includes your life partner -- that's a special sort of relationship that has a lot of unique attributes and connotations. But that doesn't mean the conversations can only maintain their integrity when it's gender-exclusive.
This isn't even realistic, as we're currently realizing that gender is a spectrum, not a binary, and that people are all over the place on that spectrum. It's highly unlikely that any given group of "men" or "women" even includes people who actually all have precisely the same gender. This ideology is also weirdly exclusive of gay people; if you're a group of people talking about having sex with women, why can't that group of people also include women who have sex with women, and vice-versa? If the FFXV bros want to talk about sex with women and that's somehow real important to the story, it should be able to maintain its integrity if it included lesbian and/or bisexual women in the conversation who are suitably open to talking about such things with close friends.
PSN: BrightWing13 FFX|V:ARR Bright Asuna
Not going to keep discussing this outside the context of final fantasy because that's not what this thread is for. In terms of FFXV, I personally wish the main cast had women too because it's my personal preference, but that's not the story they decided to tell. If the game is good it'll be good regardless, and meanwhile the rest of the video game industry is doing better every single day at releasing tons of games with kick ass women as main characters, villains, and everything else in between.
Of course they can. Shit, most of my close friends since high school have been women. I'm saying the entire concept of "the whole party is already friends" is something new. This particular story is about 4 male friends. They could have done a different story with different themes, certainly, but I don't take issue with the one they chose.
Sorry, I'm slightly confused. No one is upset that they are all friends. That's cool and all. It's the "they're all male" part, and the reasoning, that is a problem (with the main party). I feel like we are mauve talking past each other
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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I don't feel attacked. And I can see what you mean. To bring it right back on topic it sounds like you'd be more comfortable with Cidney's character if you could choose the level of 'sexiness' that she displayed. I can certainly appreciate having more control vs. less. But generally I don't expect that level of control from games. To be quite honest when I see Cidney's outfit I think "that's silly" but it's not a deal-breaker for me. If I see inappropriate armor on a guy or gal character, or see a weapon that's just being used completely unrealisitcally (like how 99% of sword just cleave through multiple baddies wearing heavy armor), I also think "that's silly" and don't get enjoyment out of that particular aspect of the game, but I can still appreciate the other parts of the experience. And I know that Cidney isn't your only problem with the game, but it's an example of what I see on the PA forums with a lot of frequency: I don't like this particular aspect of the game and therefore don't like the game as a whole. Only a lot of the time it comes off as 'I don't like this particular aspect of the game because it's bad/wrong, and therefore the game is bad/wrong' and sometimes brought further to 'people who like said game are also bad/wrong.' That's super oversimplifying the argument, and not meant as an accusation toward you in particular. But here is an example:
Here Josh is making a point about how it's a common experience that men and women act differently in single sexed v. mixed sex groups and you point to the fact that it's a problem and so is it's inclusion in video games unless it's subverted in a good way. You may not be wrong, but this point that you're asserting is still up for debate as far as I know. My common experience is the same: men and women are different in some ways. What I learned as part of my sociolinguistics classes backed that up. The text from my human sexuality class supported this. I don't agree that this is wholly problematic or unnatural or completely a product of one's environment. As an example I just don't think that as many women are drawn to military service as men. Certainly there are a lot of reasons you could point to in the US. But looking at the Isreali Defense Force you could also draw some conclusions: in a country where military service is required and being in the military carries social prestige (and declining has a stigma) more women than men continue to opt out and fewer women stay in as a career. 51% of their officer corps is female, which is pretty awesome, but if you take a closer look at which roles that they perform it's heavily skewed towards combat support. There are a few roles that our outright denied to them, but even in the direct combat roles that are open to women they are a minority. This mirrors the distribution in the US forces; services and administrative roles are dominated by women. Intelligence has a fair mix. Women are a minority in flying units, and in fighter units there are so few that when they fly together it makes headlines.
This circles back around to my original comment of American woman having more hang-ups that then Japanese. Like I said, it's not just about sex. I feel like there's a strong social push right now to assert that men and women are the same. Not just equal, but completely the same. We as a society want to divorce the thought that certain beliefs, tendencies, or roles are attached to certain genders. And I don't disagree most of the time; cooking and cleaning aren't female activities. Bachelorette pads can be just as messy as their counterparts. But on a whole do women generally care more about the overall appearance of their house? That's certainly been my experience. And I say that as the one who does the majority of the cooking and cleaning in my current relationship.
It's entirely possible that some of that was mistranslated, or there was some sort of change in the time that I haven't really been watching trailers, but it's the kind of thing that makes me think "do I really want to give money to this team?"
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I wonder if they ever made plushies of them. I'm not one for cute stuff but...
No, I understand what people are upset about. I'm saying the "they're all friends" thing is itself unique enough that I'm excited about, regardless of the makeup of that group of friends.
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There is a stark difference between statistical trends and exclusionary differences. I expect there is a statistical trend that shooter games are preferred more by men than women. Going from there to "we can't have a woman character talking about shooter games with her guy friends because women don't like shooter games" is clearly a problem. It transforms a trend into a gender role. It erases every woman that does enjoy shooters, and it reinforces all environmental factors that contribute to the difference in the first place. This is why Square's argument is so bankrupt.
Asserting that men and women are the same effectively erases trans people, which would be an egregiously self-defeating thing for me to do. That doesn't mean veering all the way toward "every man and woman is different from each other in <x> manner" is appropriate either.
Anyway I have no problem with people who like FFXV. I like plenty of problematic things myself. I wouldn't be able to play many video games otherwise.
And sadly some fat apologists are hilariously already attacking it because it shows that previously large as a kid Prompto got motivated and trained hard to become skinny and athletic.
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One of the many criticisms I had with FFXII.
In past FFs, the heroines in the party would form their own bonds of friendship alongside whatever love interests they may or may not have. I continue to praise FFVII for not making Tifa and Aerith persistently "catty" with each other due to falling for the same guy, in addition to familial bonds like Yuna/Rikku and (arguably) Garnet and Eiko.
In FFXII Ashe and Penelo don't say a single goddamn word to each other. I bet Ashe wouldn't remember her name if they met again years later.
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SE considering making another game using the gambit system from FF12.
Does anyone say anything to Penelo post-rescue? Even Vaan barely gets more than the occasional "Shut up Vaan". Other than Fran/Balthier, I feel like XII's party is all about being there for their own individual reasons. They're not friends, but united by purpose.
FF12's and Dragon Age 2's gambits were so good. I'd love to see more games with AI-controlled party members use Gambits. It takes out the frustration.
I will always wonder why Bioware replaced their amazing evolution of the Gambit system with the shitty and horrible 'your AI is retarded and will suicide repeatedly' system they used for DA:I.
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Yeah, I love "Program the AI your way, manually control who/when you choose to" systems. It makes me feel a bit closer to the RPG.
Fran and Penelo have a couple of interactions, and that's kind of it.
The party interaction in FFXII sucks hard. I'm excited for Zodiac Arc, but I'm not looking forward to being disappointed about that aspect again.
What a goddamn waste.
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This is because of cultural reinforcement.
Genetically speaking, none of the things being discussed are different between the males and females outside of periods and erections.
The concepts of man and of woman are already divorced from male and female and always will be. Women develop mindsets because of cultural indoctrination, same as men.
So men and women aren't the same, no, but males and females pretty much are. Given a tabula rasa and no cultural indoctrination a male or a female could develop any traits or mindsets across our modern concept of male and female.
In other words, men and women aren't necessarily different. They are only different because of cultural influence.
I'll admit, my experience and knowledge in this area are VERY limited, but it seems unlikely to me that males and females have virtually no innate differences in their behavioral tendencies. Men and women have different hormone balances, and hormones influence behavior. Trans people report differences in their behavior when they undergo HRT. I don't understand how men and women can be the same if those things hold true.
But of course, that's just my thoughts based off of no focused study. Feel free to inform me
Of course, I was only speaking in generalities.
Hobbies are not based on sex, and I don't think anybody said they were, but men and women have very different biology, and yes there are big time behavioral impacts from hormones.
Hormones are a crazy thing. I remember at my wedding, my Dad had not yet taken care of his low test problem, and he absolutely could not control himself weeping during the ceremony.
We can all like final fantasy though, that's for sure.
It might because of FFVII's age, but found Tifa and Aerith to be the opposite extreme of hostility, in which they are assumed to be friends neither they or Cloud need or want to have the awkward but necessary talk about it. It becomes most obvious in the final temple when Cait Sith reads Aerith's fortune and Tifa's in the party, she'll stand in the corner and make generic grumpy animations while Cloud, Aerith and Cait Sith pretend she's not there. It feels almost like its cowardly writing.
P4A and Persona's 4 animation counterpart singlehandedly turned me off from JRPGs for a while. They chopped Yu Martystukami's balls off then paraded him around like he's he's so sexy and swag, staring into space, not talking to girls like a baller. Yet the only female he can directly converse with is Nanako. He can't talk about the weather with a female because ololol waifu war! Its the perfect representation of everything wrong with JRPG protagonists.
You summon FF characters in battle, and they each have iconic themes attached to them.
The writing is looking real charming too.
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Sounds about right.
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I got to Exdeath without problems, but my team was too weak to survive Almagest. I realized I could just jump over it to survive, but I decided I'd like to have my team alive through it without having to run 4 jumps, so I grinded up to level 43 which put everyone but Lenna (as Time Mage) safely within survival range. After that is was just getting lucky with Grand Cross attacks (my time attempt resulted in Lenna silenced) and crossing my fingers that Meteor rolled decent damage and Bartz's Rapid Fire shots didn't go too wide. Almost all of the pieces died within 5 turns of each other.
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I'd love to see X|V add Montblanc style moogles in the next expansion. Shit, maybe make them a new playable race or something. The existing VI style moogles are cute and all, but get annoying quickly.
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I would caution that this is hotly debated in the scientific community.