Luke Cage, despite and possibly because of its flaws nailed the character and genre they were riffing on.
It was a fine show, but I don't think I can necessarily agree with the first half of this. The Luke Cage that appears in the MCU is pretty different from the ones from the comics.
Adaptions don't have be completely exact. Some need to tweaked more than others, and some have adaptions with inspired takes. Personally, I thought that was one of the best versions of the character I've ever seen. DD and JJ the characters and their shows/casts also have had differences minor and major to the comics they're adapting. For example, Karen Page is very different from the comics - there she's virtually a carbon copy blonde clone of Mary Jane Watson with a bad past and DD 1 spoilers
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
The intent isn't in question, the believability is. IF did many scenes that were supposed to convey something, yet failed the execution.
I don't see what any of this has to do with my post, to be honest.
The series created its own new version of Luke Cage, which is fine. But it means that I disagree that it "nailed" the character.
Luke Cage, despite and possibly because of its flaws nailed the character and genre they were riffing on.
It was a fine show, but I don't think I can necessarily agree with the first half of this. The Luke Cage that appears in the MCU is pretty different from the ones from the comics.
Adaptions don't have be completely exact. Some need to tweaked more than others, and some have adaptions with inspired takes. Personally, I thought that was one of the best versions of the character I've ever seen. DD and JJ the characters and their shows/casts also have had differences minor and major to the comics they're adapting. For example, Karen Page is very different from the comics - there she's virtually a carbon copy blonde clone of Mary Jane Watson with a bad past and DD 1 spoilers
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
The intent isn't in question, the believability is. IF did many scenes that were supposed to convey something, yet failed the execution.
I don't see what any of this has to do with my post, to be honest.
The series created its own new version of Luke Cage, which is fine. But it means that I disagree that it "nailed" the character.
I thought your post was about comic adaptions, including Luke Cage's? DD and JJ's shows are adaptions, too. They were examples of how they don't have to identical to the comics to be faithful or successful.
Which is fine, but not everyone agrees that that Cage wasn't a faithful adaption to the spirit of the character. You don't have to do a 1 = 1 copy to capture the spirit of a thing. Many adaptions do this to great acclaim.
edit: Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy did this to Batman.
They do establish that in order to become the Iron Fist, Danny had to defeat a dragon. When "able to defeat a dragon" is the baseline level of skill the show sets for the character, the audience would expect something really impressive.
to be clear, in the comics he doesn't so much fight the dragon as hug it real hard.
Which is an impressive feat by itself. And before doing that he had to tear open its heart IIRC.
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops..
Except that the moves don't match up to r
each other even when you ignore the timing.
Schrodinger on
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
The intent isn't in question, the believability is. IF did many scenes that were supposed to convey something, yet failed the execution.
Right my point is that it is believable, and Schrodingers' problem with the scene seems to ignore the point of the scene.
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
The intent isn't in question, the believability is. IF did many scenes that were supposed to convey something, yet failed the execution.
Right my point is that it is believable, and Schrodingers' problem with the scene seems to ignore the point of the scene.
The point of the scene is for Danny to learn specific forms. Is Danny actually learning those forms? No, he is not.
It's basically equivalent to a musical where you're not only singing out of sync, but your not even singing the right lyrics. Your can keep making excuses for the first problem, but what's the excuse for the second?
Or to put it another way: Bakuto is the right shark. His movements seem precise, natural, and smooth. Danny is the left shark. His movements are all over the place. Sometimes they match up, and sometimes they don't.
If it's somehow impossible for Finn to come across as natural with such a short shooting schedule, then how does the other actor pull it off?
Luke Cage, despite and possibly because of its flaws nailed the character and genre they were riffing on.
It was a fine show, but I don't think I can necessarily agree with the first half of this. The Luke Cage that appears in the MCU is pretty different from the ones from the comics.
Adaptions don't have be completely exact. Some need to tweaked more than others, and some have adaptions with inspired takes. Personally, I thought that was one of the best versions of the character I've ever seen. DD and JJ the characters and their shows/casts also have had differences minor and major to the comics they're adapting. For example, Karen Page is very different from the comics - there she's virtually a carbon copy blonde clone of Mary Jane Watson with a bad past and DD 1 spoilers
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
The intent isn't in question, the believability is. IF did many scenes that were supposed to convey something, yet failed the execution.
I don't see what any of this has to do with my post, to be honest.
The series created its own new version of Luke Cage, which is fine. But it means that I disagree that it "nailed" the character.
I thought your post was about comic adaptions, including Luke Cage's? DD and JJ's shows are adaptions, too. They were examples of how they don't have to identical to the comics to be faithful or successful.
Which is fine, but not everyone agrees that that Cage wasn't a faithful adaption to the spirit of the character. You don't have to do a 1 = 1 copy to capture the spirit of a thing. Many adaptions do this to great acclaim.
edit: Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy did this to Batman.
Despite the grounded nature Nolan's Batman is considered by many to be true to spirit of the characters and franchise.
I never said anything remotely along the lines of "if an adaptation isn't 100% identical to the original comic it's an unfaithful failure". I gave my opinion on a specific adaptation of a specific character.
To use one of your other examples, I much prefer the Karen Page on the DD show. But that doesn't mean that I think they "nailed" the character, which, as you mention, was either a bland generic 60's Marvel female character or a strung-out heroin addict depending on the period of comics. They changed the character pretty radically, which was the right thing to do.
I wanted to like Danny Rand in this show, and I even came to appreciate what they're doing with the character (the kung fu equivalent of a privileged organic hipster gym rat), but Jones flubbed the physical requirements so hard that even my most apologist leanings can't defend it. The kata scene looked incredibly amateurish, like third graders in a dance class. If they intended to convey that he was a "natural," then they should have had Bakuto mention that he's not mirroring properly, and Danny saying something about it "feeling right anyway." Or Bakuto is impressed by Danny's grasp of it to the point where HE learns something.
So many scenes in this show could have been saved by decent writing, despite Finn Jones's weakness in the area, or saved by Jones giving a stellar performance that rises above the material (and justifies casting a "real actor" rather than a talented physical actor like Lewis Tan), but neither of those things happened. That we saw that scene and the director decided that this was the best they were going to get speaks volumes.
Part of problem with the "bullet penetrates like three things then solid steel, doesn't ricochet at all, and still cracks the windshield" bit, or the kata scene, or the Colleen/Danny initial sparring scene, or the "martial arts superstar attacks businessman, then beats feet to give him time to recover" scene, or all of the quick-cut fight scenes, is that, individually, they're not problems. They might get a passing "LOL," but there is a lot of forgiveness in genre entertainment (look at DC's Legends of Tomorrow: we started liking it at exactly the point where it stopped taking its realistic approach seriously instead of talking a big game about time travel consequences and failing to execute in action). Lump all of that together on top of an ostensibly serious premise, you get the reaction to Iron Fist.
It's just the cumulation of dozens of poor choices. Does that mean that it's wrong to like it? Hell no. I actually enjoyed certain parts of Iron Fist a lot. Colleen, Claire, the child abuse theme, the brave choice of side-stepping the material's innate cultural appropriation message by making the White Savior an unsympathetic toolbox... there's stuff in there to like, and it may set the stage for some good stuff in The Defenders.
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
That's not anything like what Danny Rand is supposed to be. On any level.
Where do people keep getting this stuff from?
Danny Rand is not the best martial artist on the planet. Danny Rand is not the best martial artist in K'un Lun. I would go so far as to say that Danny Rand is not even the best martial artist in New York. He is not any of those things in any context. In any form. In any media.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
Danny is generally considered one of the best martial artists on the planet. And most of his rivals for that title do not currently exist in the MCU (i.e., Shang-Chi).
Master Martial Artist: Rand is a master of K'un-Lun's martial arts and is proficient in many of Earth's, including but not limited to: Kunlunquan, Shaolinquan, Judo, Aikido, Ninjutsu, Karate, Boxing and even loose street fighting tactics. Recently, he has gained access to the knowledge, experience and skills of all the Iron Fists before him. When temporarily blinded by Sabretooth, he was able to still defeat the lethal mutant, without even using his chi powers. He is also skilled in unique chi based techniques, such as the "Drunken style" that masks him from such things as Spider-Man's Spider-Sense and Mister X's telepathic reflexes. He is one of the greatest martial artists on Earth; having held his own against Wolverine and Captain America. Rand also holds notable victories over Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Sabretooth, Batroc, Black Dragon, Nightshade, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Colossus, and Nightcrawler. He also possesses infinite ways to kill a man, such as the Black-Black Poison Touch which uses his chi to kill anyone in the close vicinity.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
Those rivals aren't from Earth. Nor are they in this series.
Danny has won a lot of fights, but they aren't quite the slam dunk fights you seem to be implying they should be, nor are those all fights against other martial artists. It's also worth pointing out that the fan-made marvel wiki has some serious flaws when it comes to describing power sets with a lot of hyperbole. As should have been obvious by the line "Infinite way to kill a man". Danny in the comics only sounds like the most badass when laid end to end like that, not when he's actually in the comics. Those fight tended to be less one-sided than the wiki makes it sound.
Also, the Immortal Weapons have been on Earth, and they were around for quite a while. Not only that but the previous Immortal Weapons regularly visited earth, and Orson Randall (The previous Iron Fist and rival) was still alive, on Earth, and met Danny.
I'm pointing out that Finn Jones physical abilities as an actor are far below that of an entry level actor, and your response is that Danny Rand as a character has martial artists from other dimensions that are even better than he is.
Stop doing this man, you were talking about THE CHARACTER, I highlighted and then responded to the part about THE CHARACTER.
Since you omitted your post from the quote tree, I added them back in. And here is your post AGAIN since you seem to have forgotten about it
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
Stop moving the goalposts. You talk about the character, I respond about the character, and you say you were talking about the actor. You talk about the actor, I talk about the actor, you say it's about the character. You talk about the martial arts and how a martial artist is supposed to respond, I point out that the guy didn't get more than 20 minutes to go through it with the stunt coordinator, and you say 'no, it's about his acting ability now'.
Trying to have any kind of discussion on this with you is annoying because you keep saying one thing then saying you were talking about something else. I can see your previous posts, because I quote them in my posts!
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I think Ward is the best character/actor on the show.
Through five episodes I'm legitimately wondering if his character will later be revealed to be a lobotomy patient
This character is crap, and this guy can't save it
Why?
I don't know what the actor is trying to portray. Is Ward mentally handicapped? Why does he speak so slowly, and why does his expression always look like he suspects his egg salad sandwich has gone a little off?
I don't understand the character's role yet, either. He is a non-stop terrible decision machine. Two vastly smarter people are around him in Harold and Joy and he still manages to choose to do really stupid shit all the time. He is legitimately one of the most incomprehensibly stupid characters ever put to screen.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
What, pray tell, is the difference between creative license and failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about?
A lot depends on why the error is occurring. Is it because the writers didn't bother to care, or is it because it was a necessary change in order to move the plot? i.e., I'm pretty sure that there aren't any magical schools of Wizardry in real world Britain, but you can't have the story of Harry Potter without it.
No one is criticizing Iron Fist on the basis that "K'un Lun" isn't a real city, or on the basis that punching through steel doors is physically impossible for a human being. Because we understand that those things are necessary to move the story. Likewise, CPR in movies is often a necessary device to ensure that characters don't die. Because letting the characters die would mess up the plot. But that's very different from what Iron Fist is criticized for. It's not creative license when Finn Jones can't perform a basic kata.
Another major difference is that even when shows like "House" get plenty of medical information wrong, it's clear that they still did do a lot of research to come up with terminology that 99% of the population would be otherwise familiar with. Mistakes still happen, but that's because medicine is really, really hard even when you try. Where as "Iron Fist" should no intellectual curiosity on behalf of the writers whatsoever. It's just one established pop culture cliche after another. Not just in terms of martial arts, but also in terms of corporate politics.
Beyond that though, even if you chalk abysmal CPR portrayal up to creative license, the negative impact it has upon people who go on to expect absurd and unrealistic life-saving efforts on the part of doctors treating their loved ones far outweighs any realistic negative impact on/caused by people who develop an incorrect understanding of Bushido or the practice of kung fu. So, again, why should I expect better from Hollywood when it comes to the latter than I do with the former?
No one is blaming Iron Fist for the fact that it gives people unrealistic expectations that you can destroy buildings by punching them really hard, so that's a very bad counter example.
Your reply betrays such a tragic misunderstanding of modern medicine and portrayals thereof that I honestly don't know how to respond.
For starters, most medical shows on television are "one established pop culture cliche after another." Using appropriate terminology doesn't matter for shit if the actual medicine being portrayed is unrealistic to the point of having almost no resemblance to real life beyond terminology. And the truth is that the terminology is usually completely wrong as well. Being familiar to people does not equate to being remotely correct.
You have a poor understanding of what makes for a good or bad example, as well. Give me a good reason why I should care about technical expertise and correctness in portrayals of subjects such as kung fu or Bushido in Iron Fist more than I should care about such expertise and correctness in medical dramas, legal dramas, computing/hacking dramas and so on and so forth. I provided an example of why such areas should be of more importance. The fact is that the vast majority of television viewers don't give a shit about technical expertise and correctness in any of those areas. So why should we begin to care now, with Iron Fist? What makes the subject matter of Iron Fist more important to be portrayed correctly than the areas I mentioned? How are the creators of the Iron Fist show being more disrespectful than the creators of any typical medical/legal/hacking/military/technical whatever drama? Be specific.
So first of all, "this other thing is done poorly in other shows, so you can't complain about this thing being done poorly in this show" is a very silly argument. Unrealistic portrayals of CPR and so on are bad, and should be called out for being bad and harmful to the general population's expectations and understanding of medical treatment. But the fact that they are bad does not then absolve everything else that is also bad. "Fuck it, Chicago Hope doesn't do CPR right, no one should ever try to do anything right on film ever again!"
I agree with you that consistent unrealistic portrayal of, for example, CPR, is more harmful to society than a poor portrayal of martial arts on a kung fu show. But that's not really the issue. The issue is this: I've taken a couple of first-aid courses in my life, but I'm not a doctor and I have basically no experience with any of that. When I see CPR on TV, it's not obvious to me that it isn't realistic. I only know that it isn't from reading discussions like this online. A doctor character could be doing things completely incorrectly and I wouldn't know. When it comes to martial arts, I have even less real-world experience. I've seen people practicing tai chi in the park, and I took maybe three hours of kung fu classes 15 years ago. But when I watch Finn Jones in Iron Fist, it is glaringly obvious that he's a beginner. The show tells us that he's a master (the best? one of the best? super-good? whatever) martial artist but it's showing me clear as day that he isn't. That's the difference.
Again, I don't think it's fair to bag on Finn Jones for that. If I'd had the opportunity to audition for that part, and they'd offered it to me, I'd have taken it. He wasn't given enough time to become believable as a martial arts expert. I think it is absolutely fair to call out the producers for rushing this, and for choosing to cast someone with no martial arts experience given that they knew there wouldn't be time for him to learn it properly. If it's true that they were giving them the choreography less than an hour before shooting, that is absolutely awful. I think it's pretty fair to say that the people in charge really didn't care that much or have the appropriate respect for what they were supposed to have been doing.en
I never said that you can't complain about it. That wasn't my point at all. My point was that not hiring an expert or doing research to portray something correctly is standard operating procedure for Hollywood. That the inaccuracies being called out repeatedly here are no more or less typical than the inaccuracies in virtually any other television show ever. And so I find it difficult to view as being particularly disrespectful when it is absolutely just the way things are done in television.
To me, castigating the writers for phrasing it as "the Bushido code" rather than simply "Bushido" is downright silly when you compare it to something like typical portrayals of CPR and other life-saving care on television. The inaccuracies with the latter lead to actual physical suffering, unnecessary financial issues, anger and resentment towards actual physicians that sometimes results in absurd complaints being filed and occasionally even lawsuits, and a host of other problems. People see patients on television being shocked back to life so regularly that they expect and demand life-saving measures that are frequently entirely inappropriate for their loved ones. Doctors can tell a family that there is no chance of bringing their loved one back - that based on test/scan results and the amount of time their brain went without oxygen and whatnot that they will never regain consciousness - and family members will still incur horrific costs for keeping them on life support because they've seen people miraculously brought back on television. They'll demand heroic measures in the event of heart stoppage rather than allowing their loved one to die gracefully. And so on.
So yeah, you can absolutely complain about those issues. It would be nice if such inaccuracies didn't occur. I just find some of the ones cited thus far rather frivolous in comparison to other issues that are portrayed far more inaccurately, far more often, with far greater real world consequences - and with little to no protestation from anyone outside of frustrated healthcare workers who have generally given up on such protests by now anyway.
I think Ward is the best character/actor on the show.
Through five episodes I'm legitimately wondering if his character will later be revealed to be a lobotomy patient
This character is crap, and this guy can't save it
Why?
I don't know what the actor is trying to portray. Is Ward mentally handicapped? Why does he speak so slowly, and why does his expression always look like he suspects his egg salad sandwich has gone a little off?
I don't understand the character's role yet, either. He is a non-stop terrible decision machine. Two vastly smarter people are around him in Harold and Joy and he still manages to choose to do really stupid shit all the time. He is legitimately one of the most incomprehensibly stupid characters ever put to screen.
Okay, without spoiling anything, there's a reason for the non-stop terrible decisions. You just have to get to the point where you realize he's not mad at Danny, or explicitly trying to fuck Danny over. It's not about Danny at all for him.
I think Ward is the best character/actor on the show.
Through five episodes I'm legitimately wondering if his character will later be revealed to be a lobotomy patient
This character is crap, and this guy can't save it
Why?
I don't know what the actor is trying to portray. Is Ward mentally handicapped? Why does he speak so slowly, and why does his expression always look like he suspects his egg salad sandwich has gone a little off?
I don't understand the character's role yet, either. He is a non-stop terrible decision machine. Two vastly smarter people are around him in Harold and Joy and he still manages to choose to do really stupid shit all the time. He is legitimately one of the most incomprehensibly stupid characters ever put to screen.
I thought that, too, until I didn't. I absolutely hated Ward McBusinessman, capitalist asshole, right from episode 1. I don't think it was until the last 2 or 3 episodes where I thought, holy shit, he's kind of a real person.
I may be grading his arc on too much of a curve, because everything else was a mess. As for his speech, I think he was going for Patrick Bateman. Same voice, hair, suits, completely just playing a character from another movie.
What, pray tell, is the difference between creative license and failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about?
A lot depends on why the error is occurring. Is it because the writers didn't bother to care, or is it because it was a necessary change in order to move the plot? i.e., I'm pretty sure that there aren't any magical schools of Wizardry in real world Britain, but you can't have the story of Harry Potter without it.
No one is criticizing Iron Fist on the basis that "K'un Lun" isn't a real city, or on the basis that punching through steel doors is physically impossible for a human being. Because we understand that those things are necessary to move the story. Likewise, CPR in movies is often a necessary device to ensure that characters don't die. Because letting the characters die would mess up the plot. But that's very different from what Iron Fist is criticized for. It's not creative license when Finn Jones can't perform a basic kata.
Another major difference is that even when shows like "House" get plenty of medical information wrong, it's clear that they still did do a lot of research to come up with terminology that 99% of the population would be otherwise familiar with. Mistakes still happen, but that's because medicine is really, really hard even when you try. Where as "Iron Fist" should no intellectual curiosity on behalf of the writers whatsoever. It's just one established pop culture cliche after another. Not just in terms of martial arts, but also in terms of corporate politics.
Beyond that though, even if you chalk abysmal CPR portrayal up to creative license, the negative impact it has upon people who go on to expect absurd and unrealistic life-saving efforts on the part of doctors treating their loved ones far outweighs any realistic negative impact on/caused by people who develop an incorrect understanding of Bushido or the practice of kung fu. So, again, why should I expect better from Hollywood when it comes to the latter than I do with the former?
No one is blaming Iron Fist for the fact that it gives people unrealistic expectations that you can destroy buildings by punching them really hard, so that's a very bad counter example.
Your reply betrays such a tragic misunderstanding of modern medicine and portrayals thereof that I honestly don't know how to respond.
For starters, most medical shows on television are "one established pop culture cliche after another." Using appropriate terminology doesn't matter for shit if the actual medicine being portrayed is unrealistic to the point of having almost no resemblance to real life beyond terminology. And the truth is that the terminology is usually completely wrong as well. Being familiar to people does not equate to being remotely correct.
You have a poor understanding of what makes for a good or bad example, as well. Give me a good reason why I should care about technical expertise and correctness in portrayals of subjects such as kung fu or Bushido in Iron Fist more than I should care about such expertise and correctness in medical dramas, legal dramas, computing/hacking dramas and so on and so forth. I provided an example of why such areas should be of more importance. The fact is that the vast majority of television viewers don't give a shit about technical expertise and correctness in any of those areas. So why should we begin to care now, with Iron Fist? What makes the subject matter of Iron Fist more important to be portrayed correctly than the areas I mentioned? How are the creators of the Iron Fist show being more disrespectful than the creators of any typical medical/legal/hacking/military/technical whatever drama? Be specific.
So first of all, "this other thing is done poorly in other shows, so you can't complain about this thing being done poorly in this show" is a very silly argument. Unrealistic portrayals of CPR and so on are bad, and should be called out for being bad and harmful to the general population's expectations and understanding of medical treatment. But the fact that they are bad does not then absolve everything else that is also bad. "Fuck it, Chicago Hope doesn't do CPR right, no one should ever try to do anything right on film ever again!"
I agree with you that consistent unrealistic portrayal of, for example, CPR, is more harmful to society than a poor portrayal of martial arts on a kung fu show. But that's not really the issue. The issue is this: I've taken a couple of first-aid courses in my life, but I'm not a doctor and I have basically no experience with any of that. When I see CPR on TV, it's not obvious to me that it isn't realistic. I only know that it isn't from reading discussions like this online. A doctor character could be doing things completely incorrectly and I wouldn't know. When it comes to martial arts, I have even less real-world experience. I've seen people practicing tai chi in the park, and I took maybe three hours of kung fu classes 15 years ago. But when I watch Finn Jones in Iron Fist, it is glaringly obvious that he's a beginner. The show tells us that he's a master (the best? one of the best? super-good? whatever) martial artist but it's showing me clear as day that he isn't. That's the difference.
Again, I don't think it's fair to bag on Finn Jones for that. If I'd had the opportunity to audition for that part, and they'd offered it to me, I'd have taken it. He wasn't given enough time to become believable as a martial arts expert. I think it is absolutely fair to call out the producers for rushing this, and for choosing to cast someone with no martial arts experience given that they knew there wouldn't be time for him to learn it properly. If it's true that they were giving them the choreography less than an hour before shooting, that is absolutely awful. I think it's pretty fair to say that the people in charge really didn't care that much or have the appropriate respect for what they were supposed to have been doing.en
I never said that you can't complain about it. That wasn't my point at all. My point was that not hiring an expert or doing research to portray something correctly is standard operating procedure for Hollywood. That the inaccuracies being called out repeatedly here are no more or less typical than the inaccuracies in virtually any other television show ever. And so I find it difficult to view as being particularly disrespectful when it is absolutely just the way things are done in television.
To me, castigating the writers for phrasing it as "the Bushido code" rather than simply "Bushido" is downright silly when you compare it to something like typical portrayals of CPR and other life-saving care on television. The inaccuracies with the latter lead to actual physical suffering, unnecessary financial issues, anger and resentment towards actual physicians that sometimes results in absurd complaints being filed and occasionally even lawsuits, and a host of other problems. People see patients on television being shocked back to life so regularly that they expect and demand life-saving measures that are frequently entirely inappropriate for their loved ones. Doctors can tell a family that there is no chance of bringing their loved one back - that based on test/scan results and the amount of time their brain went without oxygen and whatnot that they will never regain consciousness - and family members will still incur horrific costs for keeping them on life support because they've seen people miraculously brought back on television. They'll demand heroic measures in the event of heart stoppage rather than allowing their loved one to die gracefully. And so on.
So yeah, you can absolutely complain about those issues. It would be nice if such inaccuracies didn't occur. I just find some of the ones cited thus far rather frivolous in comparison to other issues that are portrayed far more inaccurately, far more often, with far greater real world consequences - and with little to no protestation from anyone outside of frustrated healthcare workers who have generally given up on such protests by now anyway.
Yeah, it's because healthcare workers are the only ones who recognize that the CPR and zapping people back to life shown on film is bogus. As you say, most people watching that stuff believe it and think that's how it really works. It's not obvious that it's being portrayed unrealistically unless you have personal experience or knowledge about that stuff.
Whereas, it is pretty apparent that Finn Jones isn't a master martial artist. You can tell just by watching him, you don't need to have any special experience other than maybe having seen other martial arts movies with real martial artists.
So it's not about "which inaccurate portrayal is more harmful to society", it's about "which one jumps out at the viewer as phony".
As for the "bushido code" thing, it didn't jump out at me because I don't speak Japanese or know anything about it. It's not on my personal list of problems with this show. I think it's been brought up as one example which fits a larger pattern of ignorance or lack of effort on the part of the producers, rather than as a prime issue in and of itself.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
If you liked or disliked the show then that's entirely your prerogative. I don't think anyone here is so much of an asshole that they want to go into your house and force you to like or dislike the show just because they did.
I just find it kind of weird that someone would argue that the quality of martial arts in the show don't matter. Like, it's a show based on fighting. The source material is (charitably) "inspired" by a very specific cultural phenomenon that is rooted in Asian martial arts cinema. If the martial arts don't matter then why does this entire genre even exist?
If you liked the show and you enjoyed the fight scenes, then great. Other people disagree. But to just blanket say that they don't matter, and that having the opinion that the fight scenes are bad (or that the movie is bad because the fight scenes are bad) is somehow fundamentally wrong?
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
That's not anything like what Danny Rand is supposed to be. On any level.
Where do people keep getting this stuff from?
Danny Rand is not the best martial artist on the planet. Danny Rand is not the best martial artist in K'un Lun. I would go so far as to say that Danny Rand is not even the best martial artist in New York. He is not any of those things in any context. In any form. In any media.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
Danny is generally considered one of the best martial artists on the planet. And most of his rivals for that title do not currently exist in the MCU (i.e., Shang-Chi).
Master Martial Artist: Rand is a master of K'un-Lun's martial arts and is proficient in many of Earth's, including but not limited to: Kunlunquan, Shaolinquan, Judo, Aikido, Ninjutsu, Karate, Boxing and even loose street fighting tactics. Recently, he has gained access to the knowledge, experience and skills of all the Iron Fists before him. When temporarily blinded by Sabretooth, he was able to still defeat the lethal mutant, without even using his chi powers. He is also skilled in unique chi based techniques, such as the "Drunken style" that masks him from such things as Spider-Man's Spider-Sense and Mister X's telepathic reflexes. He is one of the greatest martial artists on Earth; having held his own against Wolverine and Captain America. Rand also holds notable victories over Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Sabretooth, Batroc, Black Dragon, Nightshade, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Colossus, and Nightcrawler. He also possesses infinite ways to kill a man, such as the Black-Black Poison Touch which uses his chi to kill anyone in the close vicinity.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
Those rivals aren't from Earth. Nor are they in this series.
Did the comic books show him struggling to keep up against amateur improv actors in terms of physical awareness? Because that's what I'm comparing him to.
Or are you implying that amateur improv actors are also above all those other people who Iron Fist has beaten, and therefore it should be of no surprise that they're above Iron Fist as well?
Also, the Immortal Weapons have been on Earth, and they were around for quite a while.
Not in the current MCU, they aren't.
Danny has beaten every martial arts opponent we've seen in the MCU. He's beaten the greatest champions that the Hand has been able to send. So as far as the MCU is concerned (And the series takes place within the context of the MCU), Danny is supposed to be the best. Which makes sense, because that's currently the main thing he brings to the table.
All the other martial artists in Marvel have other skills to rely on. Daredevil has super senses and legal knowledge. Black Widow has espionage. Hawkeye has sharpshooting. Captain America has tactical ability. But take Kung Fu away from Danny Rand, and he's basically just a 10 year old boy in a grown up body. So yeah, as it stands now, I'm going to assume that he's currently the best person at Kung Fu on planet Earth, despite being thoroughly tested by his rivals who tried to prove otherwise.
If I tell you that Liu Kang should have more fighting skills than the average real world senior citizen because he's supposed to be the best fighter on Earth in the Mortal Kombat movie, it doesn't make any sense to reply, "But what about all those other characters from Earth that never appeared in the movie?" And even if I conceded your opinion, it doesn't change the fact that he should still be a better fighter than the average real world senior citizen.
I'm pointing out that Finn Jones physical abilities as an actor are far below that of an entry level actor, and your response is that Danny Rand as a character has martial artists from other dimensions that are even better than he is.
Stop doing this man, you were talking about THE CHARACTER, I highlighted and then responded to the part about THE CHARACTER.
Are you under the impression that Danny Rand the fictional character should have less skill than Finn Jones?
I'm of the belief that Finn Jones physical coordination ought to be above that of a typical improv actor, in order to justify his casting over many other actors. And I'm of the belief that Danny Rand, the fictional character presented on screen, should have physical coordination that greatly exceeds that of real world actor Finn Jones, because of Hollywood magic. For the same reason that Finn Jones lacks the ability to punch through steel doors, but Hollywood designs their scenes to make it look like he can.
Or in other words: a) Amateur Improv Actors < b) Finn Jones < c) Other Martial Artists in the MCU < d) Danny Rand.
Where as you seem to be of the belief that it should look like this: Danny Rand < Finn Jones <= Amateur Improv Actors <= Other Martial Artists in the MCU.
Because that's the only way your rebuttal shows any relevance.
You also seem to be obsessed with where "Other Martial Artists in the MCU" fits into that list, even though it's the least relevant one my original point. Other martial artists being above Danny Rand does not justify Danny Rand being below amateur improv actors.
Stop moving the goalposts
You're the one moving the goalpost by citing people who haven't appeared on Earth yet, or by citing people from outside the MCU even though we're discussing the MCU version of Danny Rand.
Which isn't even relevant to my main point, because once again... my main point is to compare Danny Rand to amateur improv actors.
To me, castigating the writers for phrasing it as "the Bushido code" rather than simply "Bushido" is downright silly when you compare it to something like typical portrayals of CPR and other life-saving care on television. The inaccuracies with the latter lead to actual physical suffering, unnecessary financial issues, anger and resentment towards actual physicians that sometimes results in absurd complaints being filed and occasionally even lawsuits, and a host of other problems. People see patients on television being shocked back to life so regularly that they expect and demand life-saving measures that are frequently entirely inappropriate for their loved ones.
That's like complaining that "Batman" gives carjack victims unrealistic expectations that a caped crusader will prevent their car from getting carjacked. Or that the movie "Ghost" gives people unrealistic expectations that the spirit of their deceased loved ones will visit them during private pottery sessions.
I'm complaining about writer apathy. You're complaining about plot devices. These are not the same thing. You can claim that plot devices do more harm to society, but that's a completely different discussion.
Doctors can tell a family that there is no chance of bringing their loved one back - that based on test/scan results and the amount of time their brain went without oxygen and whatnot that they will never regain consciousness - and family members will still incur horrific costs for keeping them on life support because they've seen people miraculously brought back on television. They'll demand heroic measures in the event of heart stoppage rather than allowing their loved one to die gracefully. And so on.
People who lose loved ones are often in a state of denial.
Therefore, shitty writing should not be criticized as shitty.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Knew basically nothing about the show or the character, big fan of previous Marvel shows. It was... not good. Badly written, badly acted, the characters are all idiots, and entire scenes were just dull. The first fight scene in the lobby felt like it was moving in slow motion, too. I'll obviously give it a shot because Marvel, but man that was not a good first impression.
To me, castigating the writers for phrasing it as "the Bushido code" rather than simply "Bushido" is downright silly when you compare it to something like typical portrayals of CPR and other life-saving care on television. The inaccuracies with the latter lead to actual physical suffering, unnecessary financial issues, anger and resentment towards actual physicians that sometimes results in absurd complaints being filed and occasionally even lawsuits, and a host of other problems. People see patients on television being shocked back to life so regularly that they expect and demand life-saving measures that are frequently entirely inappropriate for their loved ones.
That's like complaining that "Batman" gives carjack victims unrealistic expectations that a caped crusader will prevent their car from getting carjacked. Or that the movie "Ghost" gives people unrealistic expectations that the spirit of their deceased loved ones will visit them during private pottery sessions.
What? No it isn't. Batman doesn't exist. Doctors, CPR, and defibrillators do. Since most people don't have direct experience with CPR and defibrillation, all they get is what they see on TV and in movies. These fictional portrayals become the basis for belief about how CPR and defibrillators work.
The use of clicheed conventions like the scene where someone seems to be dead, and then gets CPR, and it seems like it isn't working, and the person says "Don't you die on me damn you!", and people nearby try to pull them away, but they doggedly refuse, but finally they give up, and just when people are starting to get up and cry, that's when the person takes a dramatic breath and the music swells and blahblah... That's absolutely lazy writing and/or directing. The people doing that couldn't be bothered to come up with a realistic way to create drama, so they just pulled a scene out of the cliche box. It seems weird to me that you want to defend it.
To me, castigating the writers for phrasing it as "the Bushido code" rather than simply "Bushido" is downright silly when you compare it to something like typical portrayals of CPR and other life-saving care on television. The inaccuracies with the latter lead to actual physical suffering, unnecessary financial issues, anger and resentment towards actual physicians that sometimes results in absurd complaints being filed and occasionally even lawsuits, and a host of other problems. People see patients on television being shocked back to life so regularly that they expect and demand life-saving measures that are frequently entirely inappropriate for their loved ones.
That's like complaining that "Batman" gives carjack victims unrealistic expectations that a caped crusader will prevent their car from getting carjacked. Or that the movie "Ghost" gives people unrealistic expectations that the spirit of their deceased loved ones will visit them during private pottery sessions.
What? No it isn't. Batman doesn't exist. Doctors, CPR, and defibrillators do. Since most people don't have direct experience with CPR and defibrillation, all they get is what they see on TV and in movies. These fictional portrayals become the basis for belief about how CPR and defibrillators work.
The use of clicheed conventions like the scene where someone seems to be dead, and then gets CPR, and it seems like it isn't working, and the person says "Don't you die on me damn you!", and people nearby try to pull them away, but they doggedly refuse, but finally they give up, and just when people are starting to get up and cry, that's when the person takes a dramatic breath and the music swells and blahblah... That's absolutely lazy writing and/or directing. The people doing that couldn't be bothered to come up with a realistic way to create drama, so they just pulled a scene out of the cliche box. It seems weird to me that you want to defend it.
I'm not defending the practice. I'm saying it's a different category.
"Bushido code" can be corrected without changing the story. The main challenge is whether or not the writers bother to care enough to look into it in the first place. "Hey, how about instead of saying 'bushido code', you say 'bushido training'? Or, 'I was trained in Bushido, it goes against our code.' Or just 'my code,' and then they'll just assume that it was part of your warrior training, which is what bushido means?"
Or as another example: The fact that the original writer can't be bothered to learn that Asian people like to be referred to as "Asian," and not "Oriental."
OTOH, the CPR scene requires a total rewrite of the story. Since it usually happens at the climax, it means the entire script goes out the window. There's no easy correction.
You can say that both actions result from laziness. But the laziness comes from a different place. One of them is "I don't really give a shit if Asian people don't like to be referred to as Oriental." And the other one is, "I need to figure out how to end the story and this is the only thing I could come up with."
Iron Fist star Finn Jones is well aware of the early critical mauling that the new Netflix series has received – and thinks it has something to do with President Donald Trump.
The actor admitted to RadioTimes.com that he understood why some early viewers might have struggled to warm to the hero with the titular 'iron fist' because of the character's privileged background.
"I think the world has changed a lot since we were filming that television show," he said. "I’m playing a white American billionaire superhero, at a time when the white American billionaire archetype is public enemy number one, especially in the US.
"We filmed the show way before Trump’s election, and I think it’s very interesting to see how that perception, now that Trump’s in power, how it makes it very difficult to root for someone coming from white privilege, when that archetype is public enemy number one."
The fact that Finn Jones blames Trump-haters for the fact his series has been critically panned makes me question his excuses for why the action scenes are terrible.
That quote is from a couple weeks ago, or at least before the show premiered
And honestly, considering there have been more than a few comments around here underlining the rich/whiteness of the character as a flaw, he's maybe not quite so entirely off-base?
That quote is from a couple weeks ago, or at least before the show premiered
And honestly, considering there have been more than a few comments around here underlining the rich/whiteness of the character as a flaw, he's maybe not quite so entirely off-base?
People were hating the show before they could even watch it.
Did I enjoy it? Sure. Probably won't be revisiting it much, though.
But the fore-lash on it was kinda ridic
edit: To further elaborate before I head off to work for a bit:
It would have been rad if they'd cast an Asian/American for Danny. It absolutely would have, and would have been, in a lot of ways, a very healthy example. There are two problems with this, and I actually don't have time to go into deep detail for either.
One issue is: Danny's family is also in this show. So now you're casting the rest of those characters Asian/American as well. Which, actually, is awesome. It's also something that takes the kind of work that any casting department on any show is clearly not willing to do, which is actually the problem. But also, did they already have Harold/Ward/Joy/Mom/Dad cast before they cast Finn Jones? If so, those actors are fired. People are deeply stupid, and have only the most tenuous grasp on the concept of a mixed family.
Another issue: Kung-Fu Asian Guy. Yes, the community would shit their pants. Yes they would.
Yes they fucking would.
People are already being snarky about the casting of an Asian actor for the martial artist Inhuman.
Yes they would.
Now, as far as the choreography/fighting... yeah, they really should have done better. Absolutely. This is reason number one that I won't be rewatching.
BUT... I found Finn Jones to be at least a better actor than your average CW lead. And he's clearly, by looking at him, a reasonably fit dork. Martial arts choreography takes a lot more to sell than the production was allowed, and more than he was allowed to prepare for.
Well, and it was the result of yet another probe by a news outlet into why this show was so bad that nobody had actually seen all 13 episodes of, yet.
Hey Finn Jones, why is your show bad? Why do so many people hate it who haven't seen it yet? Which candidate did you support in the 2020 election? Why are you such a racist monster? Do you like this picture of my baby?
That quote is from a couple weeks ago, or at least before the show premiered
And honestly, considering there have been more than a few comments around here underlining the rich/whiteness of the character as a flaw, he's maybe not quite so entirely off-base?
People like rich, white super-heroes when they're done right. Arrow, Iron Man, Batman etc are all popular. Danny's got a lot of problems with his character, being an entitled rich white guy is merely one piece of that train wreck. Then there's the series itself.
Finn's caught between a rock and a hard place by: being the face of the franchise, contractual obligation and trying to save his career. This is a distraction and he's running out of excuses.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
To me, castigating the writers for phrasing it as "the Bushido code" rather than simply "Bushido" is downright silly when you compare it to something like typical portrayals of CPR and other life-saving care on television. The inaccuracies with the latter lead to actual physical suffering, unnecessary financial issues, anger and resentment towards actual physicians that sometimes results in absurd complaints being filed and occasionally even lawsuits, and a host of other problems. People see patients on television being shocked back to life so regularly that they expect and demand life-saving measures that are frequently entirely inappropriate for their loved ones.
That's like complaining that "Batman" gives carjack victims unrealistic expectations that a caped crusader will prevent their car from getting carjacked. Or that the movie "Ghost" gives people unrealistic expectations that the spirit of their deceased loved ones will visit them during private pottery sessions.
But sure, your facetious examples are just like that...
Back to the show: how is using the phrase "the Bushido code" an actual example of shitty writing and not caring, as opposed to using a common phrasing because viewers would be more likely to understand it? If you do a Google search for Bushido, 2 of the first four links come up with "Bushido Code" rather than simply Bushido. One of those two is from PBS, which many people would treat as reliable. The two that don't use "Bushido code" in the Google search results both use it in their descriptions of Bushido. If a writer on the show were to get on the internet and research Bushido a little bit, where would they see something that would indicate to them that they were using it incorrectly?
That quote is from a couple weeks ago, or at least before the show premiered
And honestly, considering there have been more than a few comments around here underlining the rich/whiteness of the character as a flaw, he's maybe not quite so entirely off-base?
People were hating the show before they could even watch it.
No, they are skeptical because of the reviews of the first 6 eps - until then there was still hope left. This eroded further when the show was released when those flaws proved true in their eyes to varying degrees.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
One issue is: Danny's family is also in this show. So now you're casting the rest of those characters Asian/American as well. Which, actually, is awesome. It's also something that takes the kind of work that any casting department on any show is clearly not willing to do, which is actually the problem. But also, did they already have Harold/Ward/Joy/Mom/Dad cast before they cast Finn Jones?
Actually I don't think the Meachums are actually related to the Rands. So that wouldn't have been an issue. Of course, they were also really fucking late with finding their main character.
That quote is from a couple weeks ago, or at least before the show premiered
And honestly, considering there have been more than a few comments around here underlining the rich/whiteness of the character as a flaw, he's maybe not quite so entirely off-base?
People like rich, white super-heroes when they're done right. Arrow, Iron Man, Batman etc are all popular. Danny's got a lot of problems with his character, being an entitled rich white guy is merely one piece of that train wreck. Then there's the series itself.
Well he's blaming it on Trump though, who wasn't president when previous billionaire white heroes were on tv/film.
That quote is from a couple weeks ago, or at least before the show premiered
And honestly, considering there have been more than a few comments around here underlining the rich/whiteness of the character as a flaw, he's maybe not quite so entirely off-base?
People were hating the show before they could even watch it.
No, they are skeptical because of the reviews of the first 6 eps - until then there was still hope left. This eroded further when the show was released when those flaws proved true in their eyes to varying degrees.
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I don't see what any of this has to do with my post, to be honest.
The series created its own new version of Luke Cage, which is fine. But it means that I disagree that it "nailed" the character.
I thought your post was about comic adaptions, including Luke Cage's? DD and JJ's shows are adaptions, too. They were examples of how they don't have to identical to the comics to be faithful or successful.
Which is fine, but not everyone agrees that that Cage wasn't a faithful adaption to the spirit of the character. You don't have to do a 1 = 1 copy to capture the spirit of a thing. Many adaptions do this to great acclaim.
edit: Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy did this to Batman.
Compare this to a version similar to the comics.
Despite the grounded nature Nolan's Batman is considered by many to be true to spirit of the characters and franchise.
Which is an impressive feat by itself. And before doing that he had to tear open its heart IIRC.
Except that the moves don't match up to r
each other even when you ignore the timing.
Right my point is that it is believable, and Schrodingers' problem with the scene seems to ignore the point of the scene.
The point of the scene is for Danny to learn specific forms. Is Danny actually learning those forms? No, he is not.
It's basically equivalent to a musical where you're not only singing out of sync, but your not even singing the right lyrics. Your can keep making excuses for the first problem, but what's the excuse for the second?
Or to put it another way: Bakuto is the right shark. His movements seem precise, natural, and smooth. Danny is the left shark. His movements are all over the place. Sometimes they match up, and sometimes they don't.
If it's somehow impossible for Finn to come across as natural with such a short shooting schedule, then how does the other actor pull it off?
I never said anything remotely along the lines of "if an adaptation isn't 100% identical to the original comic it's an unfaithful failure". I gave my opinion on a specific adaptation of a specific character.
To use one of your other examples, I much prefer the Karen Page on the DD show. But that doesn't mean that I think they "nailed" the character, which, as you mention, was either a bland generic 60's Marvel female character or a strung-out heroin addict depending on the period of comics. They changed the character pretty radically, which was the right thing to do.
So many scenes in this show could have been saved by decent writing, despite Finn Jones's weakness in the area, or saved by Jones giving a stellar performance that rises above the material (and justifies casting a "real actor" rather than a talented physical actor like Lewis Tan), but neither of those things happened. That we saw that scene and the director decided that this was the best they were going to get speaks volumes.
Part of problem with the "bullet penetrates like three things then solid steel, doesn't ricochet at all, and still cracks the windshield" bit, or the kata scene, or the Colleen/Danny initial sparring scene, or the "martial arts superstar attacks businessman, then beats feet to give him time to recover" scene, or all of the quick-cut fight scenes, is that, individually, they're not problems. They might get a passing "LOL," but there is a lot of forgiveness in genre entertainment (look at DC's Legends of Tomorrow: we started liking it at exactly the point where it stopped taking its realistic approach seriously instead of talking a big game about time travel consequences and failing to execute in action). Lump all of that together on top of an ostensibly serious premise, you get the reaction to Iron Fist.
It's just the cumulation of dozens of poor choices. Does that mean that it's wrong to like it? Hell no. I actually enjoyed certain parts of Iron Fist a lot. Colleen, Claire, the child abuse theme, the brave choice of side-stepping the material's innate cultural appropriation message by making the White Savior an unsympathetic toolbox... there's stuff in there to like, and it may set the stage for some good stuff in The Defenders.
But this is not a well-made show.
Then there would be a fight scene and i'd get sad again.
Danny has won a lot of fights, but they aren't quite the slam dunk fights you seem to be implying they should be, nor are those all fights against other martial artists. It's also worth pointing out that the fan-made marvel wiki has some serious flaws when it comes to describing power sets with a lot of hyperbole. As should have been obvious by the line "Infinite way to kill a man". Danny in the comics only sounds like the most badass when laid end to end like that, not when he's actually in the comics. Those fight tended to be less one-sided than the wiki makes it sound.
Also, the Immortal Weapons have been on Earth, and they were around for quite a while. Not only that but the previous Immortal Weapons regularly visited earth, and Orson Randall (The previous Iron Fist and rival) was still alive, on Earth, and met Danny. Stop doing this man, you were talking about THE CHARACTER, I highlighted and then responded to the part about THE CHARACTER.
Since you omitted your post from the quote tree, I added them back in. And here is your post AGAIN since you seem to have forgotten about it
Stop moving the goalposts. You talk about the character, I respond about the character, and you say you were talking about the actor. You talk about the actor, I talk about the actor, you say it's about the character. You talk about the martial arts and how a martial artist is supposed to respond, I point out that the guy didn't get more than 20 minutes to go through it with the stunt coordinator, and you say 'no, it's about his acting ability now'.
Trying to have any kind of discussion on this with you is annoying because you keep saying one thing then saying you were talking about something else. I can see your previous posts, because I quote them in my posts!
I don't know what the actor is trying to portray. Is Ward mentally handicapped? Why does he speak so slowly, and why does his expression always look like he suspects his egg salad sandwich has gone a little off?
I don't understand the character's role yet, either. He is a non-stop terrible decision machine. Two vastly smarter people are around him in Harold and Joy and he still manages to choose to do really stupid shit all the time. He is legitimately one of the most incomprehensibly stupid characters ever put to screen.
I never said that you can't complain about it. That wasn't my point at all. My point was that not hiring an expert or doing research to portray something correctly is standard operating procedure for Hollywood. That the inaccuracies being called out repeatedly here are no more or less typical than the inaccuracies in virtually any other television show ever. And so I find it difficult to view as being particularly disrespectful when it is absolutely just the way things are done in television.
To me, castigating the writers for phrasing it as "the Bushido code" rather than simply "Bushido" is downright silly when you compare it to something like typical portrayals of CPR and other life-saving care on television. The inaccuracies with the latter lead to actual physical suffering, unnecessary financial issues, anger and resentment towards actual physicians that sometimes results in absurd complaints being filed and occasionally even lawsuits, and a host of other problems. People see patients on television being shocked back to life so regularly that they expect and demand life-saving measures that are frequently entirely inappropriate for their loved ones. Doctors can tell a family that there is no chance of bringing their loved one back - that based on test/scan results and the amount of time their brain went without oxygen and whatnot that they will never regain consciousness - and family members will still incur horrific costs for keeping them on life support because they've seen people miraculously brought back on television. They'll demand heroic measures in the event of heart stoppage rather than allowing their loved one to die gracefully. And so on.
So yeah, you can absolutely complain about those issues. It would be nice if such inaccuracies didn't occur. I just find some of the ones cited thus far rather frivolous in comparison to other issues that are portrayed far more inaccurately, far more often, with far greater real world consequences - and with little to no protestation from anyone outside of frustrated healthcare workers who have generally given up on such protests by now anyway.
Okay, without spoiling anything, there's a reason for the non-stop terrible decisions. You just have to get to the point where you realize he's not mad at Danny, or explicitly trying to fuck Danny over. It's not about Danny at all for him.
Full Season Spoiler:
I thought that, too, until I didn't. I absolutely hated Ward McBusinessman, capitalist asshole, right from episode 1. I don't think it was until the last 2 or 3 episodes where I thought, holy shit, he's kind of a real person.
I may be grading his arc on too much of a curve, because everything else was a mess. As for his speech, I think he was going for Patrick Bateman. Same voice, hair, suits, completely just playing a character from another movie.
Don't bring Margaery Tyrell into this!
Edit: Okay Margey isn't Loras's beard, she's his boyfriend's beard. Sue me!
I would be OK with Natalie Dormer playing something. Her particular brand of cuteness really does it for me.
I watched the whole season and thought about it for a week and still didn't realize they are the same person until you made this post.
She was already in the first Cap flick as the thirsty Cap fangirl.
Natalie Dormer is already in the MCU
Yeah, it's because healthcare workers are the only ones who recognize that the CPR and zapping people back to life shown on film is bogus. As you say, most people watching that stuff believe it and think that's how it really works. It's not obvious that it's being portrayed unrealistically unless you have personal experience or knowledge about that stuff.
Whereas, it is pretty apparent that Finn Jones isn't a master martial artist. You can tell just by watching him, you don't need to have any special experience other than maybe having seen other martial arts movies with real martial artists.
So it's not about "which inaccurate portrayal is more harmful to society", it's about "which one jumps out at the viewer as phony".
As for the "bushido code" thing, it didn't jump out at me because I don't speak Japanese or know anything about it. It's not on my personal list of problems with this show. I think it's been brought up as one example which fits a larger pattern of ignorance or lack of effort on the part of the producers, rather than as a prime issue in and of itself.
I just find it kind of weird that someone would argue that the quality of martial arts in the show don't matter. Like, it's a show based on fighting. The source material is (charitably) "inspired" by a very specific cultural phenomenon that is rooted in Asian martial arts cinema. If the martial arts don't matter then why does this entire genre even exist?
If you liked the show and you enjoyed the fight scenes, then great. Other people disagree. But to just blanket say that they don't matter, and that having the opinion that the fight scenes are bad (or that the movie is bad because the fight scenes are bad) is somehow fundamentally wrong?
Did the comic books show him struggling to keep up against amateur improv actors in terms of physical awareness? Because that's what I'm comparing him to.
Or are you implying that amateur improv actors are also above all those other people who Iron Fist has beaten, and therefore it should be of no surprise that they're above Iron Fist as well?
Not in the current MCU, they aren't.
Danny has beaten every martial arts opponent we've seen in the MCU. He's beaten the greatest champions that the Hand has been able to send. So as far as the MCU is concerned (And the series takes place within the context of the MCU), Danny is supposed to be the best. Which makes sense, because that's currently the main thing he brings to the table.
All the other martial artists in Marvel have other skills to rely on. Daredevil has super senses and legal knowledge. Black Widow has espionage. Hawkeye has sharpshooting. Captain America has tactical ability. But take Kung Fu away from Danny Rand, and he's basically just a 10 year old boy in a grown up body. So yeah, as it stands now, I'm going to assume that he's currently the best person at Kung Fu on planet Earth, despite being thoroughly tested by his rivals who tried to prove otherwise.
If I tell you that Liu Kang should have more fighting skills than the average real world senior citizen because he's supposed to be the best fighter on Earth in the Mortal Kombat movie, it doesn't make any sense to reply, "But what about all those other characters from Earth that never appeared in the movie?" And even if I conceded your opinion, it doesn't change the fact that he should still be a better fighter than the average real world senior citizen.
Are you under the impression that Danny Rand the fictional character should have less skill than Finn Jones?
I'm of the belief that Finn Jones physical coordination ought to be above that of a typical improv actor, in order to justify his casting over many other actors. And I'm of the belief that Danny Rand, the fictional character presented on screen, should have physical coordination that greatly exceeds that of real world actor Finn Jones, because of Hollywood magic. For the same reason that Finn Jones lacks the ability to punch through steel doors, but Hollywood designs their scenes to make it look like he can.
Or in other words: a) Amateur Improv Actors < b) Finn Jones < c) Other Martial Artists in the MCU < d) Danny Rand.
Where as you seem to be of the belief that it should look like this: Danny Rand < Finn Jones <= Amateur Improv Actors <= Other Martial Artists in the MCU.
Because that's the only way your rebuttal shows any relevance.
You also seem to be obsessed with where "Other Martial Artists in the MCU" fits into that list, even though it's the least relevant one my original point. Other martial artists being above Danny Rand does not justify Danny Rand being below amateur improv actors.
You're the one moving the goalpost by citing people who haven't appeared on Earth yet, or by citing people from outside the MCU even though we're discussing the MCU version of Danny Rand.
Which isn't even relevant to my main point, because once again... my main point is to compare Danny Rand to amateur improv actors.
The lady who plays Colleen is also one of the sand snakes.
I mean did this really culminate in
That's like complaining that "Batman" gives carjack victims unrealistic expectations that a caped crusader will prevent their car from getting carjacked. Or that the movie "Ghost" gives people unrealistic expectations that the spirit of their deceased loved ones will visit them during private pottery sessions.
I'm complaining about writer apathy. You're complaining about plot devices. These are not the same thing. You can claim that plot devices do more harm to society, but that's a completely different discussion.
People who lose loved ones are often in a state of denial.
Therefore, shitty writing should not be criticized as shitty.
I thought you were messing with, but omg you are right
Steam: adamjnet
What? No it isn't. Batman doesn't exist. Doctors, CPR, and defibrillators do. Since most people don't have direct experience with CPR and defibrillation, all they get is what they see on TV and in movies. These fictional portrayals become the basis for belief about how CPR and defibrillators work.
The use of clicheed conventions like the scene where someone seems to be dead, and then gets CPR, and it seems like it isn't working, and the person says "Don't you die on me damn you!", and people nearby try to pull them away, but they doggedly refuse, but finally they give up, and just when people are starting to get up and cry, that's when the person takes a dramatic breath and the music swells and blahblah... That's absolutely lazy writing and/or directing. The people doing that couldn't be bothered to come up with a realistic way to create drama, so they just pulled a scene out of the cliche box. It seems weird to me that you want to defend it.
I'm not defending the practice. I'm saying it's a different category.
"Bushido code" can be corrected without changing the story. The main challenge is whether or not the writers bother to care enough to look into it in the first place. "Hey, how about instead of saying 'bushido code', you say 'bushido training'? Or, 'I was trained in Bushido, it goes against our code.' Or just 'my code,' and then they'll just assume that it was part of your warrior training, which is what bushido means?"
Or as another example: The fact that the original writer can't be bothered to learn that Asian people like to be referred to as "Asian," and not "Oriental."
OTOH, the CPR scene requires a total rewrite of the story. Since it usually happens at the climax, it means the entire script goes out the window. There's no easy correction.
You can say that both actions result from laziness. But the laziness comes from a different place. One of them is "I don't really give a shit if Asian people don't like to be referred to as Oriental." And the other one is, "I need to figure out how to end the story and this is the only thing I could come up with."
Same action. Different intent.
The fact that Finn Jones blames Trump-haters for the fact his series has been critically panned makes me question his excuses for why the action scenes are terrible.
That quote is from a couple weeks ago, or at least before the show premiered
And honestly, considering there have been more than a few comments around here underlining the rich/whiteness of the character as a flaw, he's maybe not quite so entirely off-base?
People were hating the show before they could even watch it.
Look, there's plenty wrong with the show
Did I enjoy it? Sure. Probably won't be revisiting it much, though.
But the fore-lash on it was kinda ridic
edit: To further elaborate before I head off to work for a bit:
It would have been rad if they'd cast an Asian/American for Danny. It absolutely would have, and would have been, in a lot of ways, a very healthy example. There are two problems with this, and I actually don't have time to go into deep detail for either.
One issue is: Danny's family is also in this show. So now you're casting the rest of those characters Asian/American as well. Which, actually, is awesome. It's also something that takes the kind of work that any casting department on any show is clearly not willing to do, which is actually the problem. But also, did they already have Harold/Ward/Joy/Mom/Dad cast before they cast Finn Jones? If so, those actors are fired. People are deeply stupid, and have only the most tenuous grasp on the concept of a mixed family.
Another issue: Kung-Fu Asian Guy. Yes, the community would shit their pants. Yes they would.
Yes they fucking would.
People are already being snarky about the casting of an Asian actor for the martial artist Inhuman.
Yes they would.
Now, as far as the choreography/fighting... yeah, they really should have done better. Absolutely. This is reason number one that I won't be rewatching.
BUT... I found Finn Jones to be at least a better actor than your average CW lead. And he's clearly, by looking at him, a reasonably fit dork. Martial arts choreography takes a lot more to sell than the production was allowed, and more than he was allowed to prepare for.
This show should've been delayed three months.
Hey Finn Jones, why is your show bad? Why do so many people hate it who haven't seen it yet? Which candidate did you support in the 2020 election? Why are you such a racist monster? Do you like this picture of my baby?
And then: "Finn Jones said crazy things!"
People like rich, white super-heroes when they're done right. Arrow, Iron Man, Batman etc are all popular. Danny's got a lot of problems with his character, being an entitled rich white guy is merely one piece of that train wreck. Then there's the series itself.
Finn's caught between a rock and a hard place by: being the face of the franchise, contractual obligation and trying to save his career. This is a distraction and he's running out of excuses.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/healthcare-in-the-time-of-greys-anatomy/379087/
http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/entertainment/2009/sept/Do-Medical-Dramas-Skew-Patients--Health-Care-Expectations.html
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2015/07/the-problem-with-medical-tv-shows-a-surgeon-sets-the-record-straight.html
http://newsactivist.com/en/articles/media-ethics-section-10/why-you-should-stop-watching-medical-dramas-tv
But sure, your facetious examples are just like that...
Back to the show: how is using the phrase "the Bushido code" an actual example of shitty writing and not caring, as opposed to using a common phrasing because viewers would be more likely to understand it? If you do a Google search for Bushido, 2 of the first four links come up with "Bushido Code" rather than simply Bushido. One of those two is from PBS, which many people would treat as reliable. The two that don't use "Bushido code" in the Google search results both use it in their descriptions of Bushido. If a writer on the show were to get on the internet and research Bushido a little bit, where would they see something that would indicate to them that they were using it incorrectly?
No, they are skeptical because of the reviews of the first 6 eps - until then there was still hope left. This eroded further when the show was released when those flaws proved true in their eyes to varying degrees.
Actually I don't think the Meachums are actually related to the Rands. So that wouldn't have been an issue. Of course, they were also really fucking late with finding their main character.
Well he's blaming it on Trump though, who wasn't president when previous billionaire white heroes were on tv/film.
Tomato/to-mah-to