I think Ward is the best character/actor on the show.
Through five episodes I'm legitimately wondering if his character will later be revealed to be a lobotomy patient
This character is crap, and this guy can't save it
Why?
I'm with Atomika; I loved the character arc but the character himself, all the way down to the way he talks, make me think he is "slow" - i think the actor is trying to portray stick up the butt but all I get is "kicked in the head by a mule when he was five"
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
+1
Options
KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
If you're going to be making a TV series about people who program ATMs for a living, then you should probably hire people who are familiar with the subject. Or at least willing to research the subject. And at least one of those people will tell you, "ATM machine is not a real phrase." Likewise, if you're going to direct a TV series centered around martial arts, then you should hire people who know or are willing to research the fact that "Bushido Code" is not a real phrase.
If you can't bother hire experts or do basic research on the thing you're making a TV series about, then you're being extremely disrespectful to the subject matter. And in this case, the thing you're being disrespectful to is a foreign culture.
Language is malleable. Once a certain tipping point is reached, it doesn't matter how grammatically incorrect something was to begin with - if enough of the populace uses a particular word, or phrase, or grammatical construct it eventually becomes correct. You can say "ATM machine is not a real phrase" until you're blue in the face, but your feelings on the matter will be crushed under the weight of people who use the term "ATM machine" regularly. See, for example, "bored of." If I would have said that I was "bored of" something when I was in grammar school, my English teachers would have broken me of the habit immediately. As far as I'm concerned based on standards for English when I was in school, "bored of" is some serious bullshit. But people use it all the time now, to the point that it is considered to be correct more often than not. So, you know, c'est la vie. I shrug my shoulders and accept it, even if I won't ever say it myself. If "Bushido Code" is more understandable to audiences than simply saying "Bushido" then go ahead and run with it. Getting hung up on something like that is a losing proposition.
As far as hiring experts or doing basic research on the thing you're making a TV series about: lolololololol. See 99% of all series ever centered around medicine, hacking or other tech-centric topics, and pretty much anything else with a technical basis that has been portrayed fictionally. Hell, anything involving courtroom drama or the law, for the most part. Giving viewers the wrong idea about how CPR works, or other life-saving interventions in a hospital-setting, is way more harmful than giving them the wrong idea about Bushido, or martial arts. Nobody in Hollywood bothers to portray aspects of medicine correctly that actually affect people on a regular basis, so why would we hold them to a higher standard for portrayals of kung fu or Bushido that are far less likely to actually result in a misunderstanding in the daily lives of viewers?
As far as hiring experts or doing basic research on the thing you're making a TV series about: lolololololol. See 99% of all series ever centered around medicine, hacking or other tech-centric topics, and pretty much anything else with a technical basis that has been portrayed fictionally. Hell, anything involving courtroom drama or the law, for the most part. Giving viewers the wrong idea about how CPR works, or other life-saving interventions in a hospital-setting, is way more harmful than giving them the wrong idea about Bushido, or martial arts. Nobody in Hollywood bothers to portray aspects of medicine correctly that actually affect people on a regular basis, so why would we hold them to a higher standard for portrayals of kung fu or Bushido that are far less likely to actually result in a misunderstanding in the daily lives of viewers?
Medical shows that get basic medicine wrong and hacking shows that get technology wrong are mocked and made fun of all the time. Usually they can get away with it if the characters are compelling enough to serve as a distraction, which isn't the case in Iron Fist.
The lack of respect of Iron First goes way beyond phrasing. The kata scenes are absolutely horrible. Even a total lay audience with no background on martial arts can tell that the movements don't match up at all, and that's something that a director who actually cares about the end product should have caught and corrected. But that's not the case here.
There's a difference between creative license and total lack of respect. Portraying CPR unrealistically is creative license. Talking about chi as if it grants superhuman abilities is creative license. Failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about is lack of respect.
+3
Options
KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
As far as hiring experts or doing basic research on the thing you're making a TV series about: lolololololol. See 99% of all series ever centered around medicine, hacking or other tech-centric topics, and pretty much anything else with a technical basis that has been portrayed fictionally. Hell, anything involving courtroom drama or the law, for the most part. Giving viewers the wrong idea about how CPR works, or other life-saving interventions in a hospital-setting, is way more harmful than giving them the wrong idea about Bushido, or martial arts. Nobody in Hollywood bothers to portray aspects of medicine correctly that actually affect people on a regular basis, so why would we hold them to a higher standard for portrayals of kung fu or Bushido that are far less likely to actually result in a misunderstanding in the daily lives of viewers?
Medical shows that get basic medicine wrong and hacking shows that get technology wrong are mocked and made fun of all the time. Usually they can get away with it if the characters are compelling enough to serve as a distraction, which isn't the case in Iron Fist.
The lack of respect of Iron First goes way beyond phrasing. The kata scenes are absolutely horrible. Even a total lay audience with no background on martial arts can tell that the movements don't match up at all, and that's something that a director who actually cares about the end product should have caught and corrected. But that's not the case here.
There's a difference between creative license and total lack of respect. Portraying CPR unrealistically is creative license. Talking about chi as if it grants superhuman abilities is creative license. Failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about is lack of respect.
What, pray tell, is the difference between creative license and failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about?
Because my wife, who is a doctor, would absolutely class CPR portrayal (along with most other practice of medicine portrayal) in the vast majority of television shows under failure to give a damn rather than creative license. Most other medical professionals I know would as well. So what is that defines the difference between the two areas to you, objectively?
Beyond that though, even if you chalk abysmal CPR portrayal up to creative license, the negative impact it has upon people who go on to expect absurd and unrealistic life-saving efforts on the part of doctors treating their loved ones far outweighs any realistic negative impact on/caused by people who develop an incorrect understanding of Bushido or the practice of kung fu. So, again, why should I expect better from Hollywood when it comes to the latter than I do with the former?
Ketar on
+4
Options
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The fact that literally every single other actor in the show can rise above the material except the main character is pretty telling, in my opinion. Like I said before, it's hard to place all the blame on Finn Jones - Danny Rand is the most underwritten character on the show outside of the characters who were introduced outside of it, and the direction on the vast majority of episodes can't even keep basic things like continuity of whether or not he has a backpack straight. But he has to take some responsibility for his performance.
What, pray tell, is the difference between creative license and failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about?
A lot depends on why the error is occurring. Is it because the writers didn't bother to care, or is it because it was a necessary change in order to move the plot? i.e., I'm pretty sure that there aren't any magical schools of Wizardry in real world Britain, but you can't have the story of Harry Potter without it.
No one is criticizing Iron Fist on the basis that "K'un Lun" isn't a real city, or on the basis that punching through steel doors is physically impossible for a human being. Because we understand that those things are necessary to move the story. Likewise, CPR in movies is often a necessary device to ensure that characters don't die. Because letting the characters die would mess up the plot. But that's very different from what Iron Fist is criticized for. It's not creative license when Finn Jones can't perform a basic kata.
Another major difference is that even when shows like "House" get plenty of medical information wrong, it's clear that they still did do a lot of research to come up with terminology that 99% of the population would be otherwise familiar with. Mistakes still happen, but that's because medicine is really, really hard even when you try. Where as "Iron Fist" should no intellectual curiosity on behalf of the writers whatsoever. It's just one established pop culture cliche after another. Not just in terms of martial arts, but also in terms of corporate politics.
Beyond that though, even if you chalk abysmal CPR portrayal up to creative license, the negative impact it has upon people who go on to expect absurd and unrealistic life-saving efforts on the part of doctors treating their loved ones far outweighs any realistic negative impact on/caused by people who develop an incorrect understanding of Bushido or the practice of kung fu. So, again, why should I expect better from Hollywood when it comes to the latter than I do with the former?
No one is blaming Iron Fist for the fact that it gives people unrealistic expectations that you can destroy buildings by punching them really hard, so that's a very bad counter example.
The fact that literally every single other actor in the show can rise above the material except the main character is pretty telling, in my opinion. Like I said before, it's hard to place all the blame on Finn Jones - Danny Rand is the most underwritten character on the show outside of the characters who were introduced outside of it, and the direction on the vast majority of episodes can't even keep basic things like continuity of whether or not he has a backpack straight. But he has to take some responsibility for his performance.
I don't think he's underwritten at all. His character is actually extremely consistent and clear across the series. The plotting just generally isn't as sharp as it needs to be and doesn't highlight this. By the same extent while Finn Jones ain't the world's greatest actor, he seems to nail the majority of what Danny Rand is in his scenes.
shryke on
+4
Options
KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
What, pray tell, is the difference between creative license and failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about?
A lot depends on why the error is occurring. Is it because the writers didn't bother to care, or is it because it was a necessary change in order to move the plot? i.e., I'm pretty sure that there aren't any magical schools of Wizardry in real world Britain, but you can't have the story of Harry Potter without it.
No one is criticizing Iron Fist on the basis that "K'un Lun" isn't a real city, or on the basis that punching through steel doors is physically impossible for a human being. Because we understand that those things are necessary to move the story. Likewise, CPR in movies is often a necessary device to ensure that characters don't die. Because letting the characters die would mess up the plot. But that's very different from what Iron Fist is criticized for. It's not creative license when Finn Jones can't perform a basic kata.
Another major difference is that even when shows like "House" get plenty of medical information wrong, it's clear that they still did do a lot of research to come up with terminology that 99% of the population would be otherwise familiar with. Mistakes still happen, but that's because medicine is really, really hard even when you try. Where as "Iron Fist" should no intellectual curiosity on behalf of the writers whatsoever. It's just one established pop culture cliche after another. Not just in terms of martial arts, but also in terms of corporate politics.
Beyond that though, even if you chalk abysmal CPR portrayal up to creative license, the negative impact it has upon people who go on to expect absurd and unrealistic life-saving efforts on the part of doctors treating their loved ones far outweighs any realistic negative impact on/caused by people who develop an incorrect understanding of Bushido or the practice of kung fu. So, again, why should I expect better from Hollywood when it comes to the latter than I do with the former?
No one is blaming Iron Fist for the fact that it gives people unrealistic expectations that you can destroy buildings by punching them really hard, so that's a very bad counter example.
Your reply betrays such a tragic misunderstanding of modern medicine and portrayals thereof that I honestly don't know how to respond.
For starters, most medical shows on television are "one established pop culture cliche after another." Using appropriate terminology doesn't matter for shit if the actual medicine being portrayed is unrealistic to the point of having almost no resemblance to real life beyond terminology. And the truth is that the terminology is usually completely wrong as well. Being familiar to people does not equate to being remotely correct.
You have a poor understanding of what makes for a good or bad example, as well. Give me a good reason why I should care about technical expertise and correctness in portrayals of subjects such as kung fu or Bushido in Iron Fist more than I should care about such expertise and correctness in medical dramas, legal dramas, computing/hacking dramas and so on and so forth. I provided an example of why such areas should be of more importance. The fact is that the vast majority of television viewers don't give a shit about technical expertise and correctness in any of those areas. So why should we begin to care now, with Iron Fist? What makes the subject matter of Iron Fist more important to be portrayed correctly than the areas I mentioned? How are the creators of the Iron Fist show being more disrespectful than the creators of any typical medical/legal/hacking/military/technical whatever drama? Be specific.
Finn Jones is a great Danny Rand and a great Iron Fist, unlike what I expected when they announced the casting. Like with all the other Marvel Netflix shows, they know what they're doing with regards to casting... I never thought Ritter could work as JJ, but she was perfect. I feel the same way about Jones!
A common acting exercise involves "mirroring." Not Kung Fu acting, but regular acting. The process involves two partners stand face to face, and one partner attempts to "mirror" the other in real time by paying attention to subtle cues.
Everyone gets a partner. (If there is an odd number, someone can go twice.) Partners stand in two lines, facing each other, about a meter apart. One is the leader, the other, the “mirror.” Moving only from the waist up, the leader begins to make simple gestures or movements. The “mirror” duplicates the leader’s movements exactly–just as a mirror would. (Some students have trouble with the right-left shift. If the leader raises his right hand, the “mirror” should raise his left, just as the figure in a real mirror would.
The goal is to mirror the partner perfectly, so the leader must move carefully so that the ‘mirror’ won’t fall behind. If they are doing a good job, we cannot tell who is the leader and who is the “mirror.” (The audience can be kept engaged by watching for when the reflection is exact and when it is not) Side-coach them to use smooth, continuous movements. Abrupt movements almost always catch the “mirror” lagging. Encourage them to maintain eye contact rather than look at their partner’s hands.
The fact that the directors never tested Finn on such a basic acting skill is shameful. It's like auditioning someone for a musical and not testing for whether they can sing on key. And then being told that this is the best singer on the entire planet far superior to every other singer.
A common acting exercise involves "mirroring." Not Kung Fu acting, but regular acting. The process involves two partners stand face to face, and one partner attempts to "mirror" the other in real time by paying attention to subtle cues.
Everyone gets a partner. (If there is an odd number, someone can go twice.) Partners stand in two lines, facing each other, about a meter apart. One is the leader, the other, the “mirror.” Moving only from the waist up, the leader begins to make simple gestures or movements. The “mirror” duplicates the leader’s movements exactly–just as a mirror would. (Some students have trouble with the right-left shift. If the leader raises his right hand, the “mirror” should raise his left, just as the figure in a real mirror would.
The goal is to mirror the partner perfectly, so the leader must move carefully so that the ‘mirror’ won’t fall behind. If they are doing a good job, we cannot tell who is the leader and who is the “mirror.” (The audience can be kept engaged by watching for when the reflection is exact and when it is not) Side-coach them to use smooth, continuous movements. Abrupt movements almost always catch the “mirror” lagging. Encourage them to maintain eye contact rather than look at their partner’s hands.
The fact that the directors never tested Finn on such a basic acting skill is shameful. It's like auditioning someone for a musical and not testing for whether they can sing on key. And then being told that this is the best singer on the entire planet far superior to every other singer.
Your drama exercise and the clip from the show are not the same thing.
Also it's become clear from interviews given before the show aired that Finn would be first given these moves to act out 15-20 minutes before shooting sometimes. Which is also probably why there are so many cuts in the fight scenes, way beyond the kind of cuts you get from typical western films. If the actor doesn't have time to learn what to do, then you do takes and make quick cuts to cover for the fact that they can't get it all in one take, or even four takes.
That's not something that being a stunt man would have fixed either. Jesus, not even they would do a job where they got less than half an hour to learn a fight sequence. Yes, the other people got more time, they're also in less fight scenes overall.
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
So the fact that Finn Jones doesn't even possess the skill to the same extent as a first year drama student practicing for non-physical roles is embarrassing. Even more so because -- unlike a drama student -- Finn Jones has the opportunity to learn all of these movements in advance -- rather than having to react in real time (as his character would). Not only that, but these movements are also synced to an actual speech, which means that it's not too different from learning to dance in sync.
Aside from the timing, the movements themselves are completely wrong. i.e., Bakuto has his right hand to his chin and his left arm bent up. Danny has his right hand to the base of his neck and his right arm bent down. It's completely wrong.
But I suppose now you'll tell me that Danny Rand is only supposed to be a martial arts master and not an acting student, so the ability to learn precise muscle movements isn't supposed to be important to his character at all.
And unless I'm mistaken you don't take entry exams for acting jobs, you audition for them.
And since when are basic acting skills not covered under the audition process?
Here's a random youtube clip of a group of senior citizens performing tai chi.
They are not professional performers. They are not auditioning to be the lead in a martial arts people. They're just a group of regular people looking to relax and get some exercise. And they're still doing a better job than Finn Jones.
But I guess it's unrealistic to expect Finn Jones to have more physical coordination than a random senior citizen.
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
That's not anything like what Danny Rand is supposed to be. On any level.
Where do people keep getting this stuff from?
Danny Rand is not the best martial artist on the planet. Danny Rand is not the best martial artist in K'un Lun. I would go so far as to say that Danny Rand is not even the best martial artist in New York. He is not any of those things in any context. In any form. In any media.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
Here's a random youtube clip of a group of senior citizens performing tai chi.
They are not professional performers. They are not auditioning to be the lead in a martial arts people. They're just a group of regular people looking to relax and get some exercise. And they're still doing a better job than Finn Jones.
But I guess it's unrealistic to expect Finn Jones to have more physical coordination than a random senior citizen.
I would be interested in seeing how they each did individually after the first 15 minutes when they first learned that, and not, in some cases, probably 15 years after they first learned it.
Also it's become clear from interviews given before the show aired that Finn would be first given these moves to act out 15-20 minutes before shooting sometimes. Which is also probably why there are so many cuts in the fight scenes, way beyond the kind of cuts you get from typical western films. If the actor doesn't have time to learn what to do, then you do takes and make quick cuts to cover for the fact that they can't get it all in one take, or even four takes.
That's not something that being a stunt man would have fixed either. Jesus, not even they would do a job where they got less than half an hour to learn a fight sequence. Yes, the other people got more time, they're also in less fight scenes overall.
There are two problems here:
a) The producers failed to give the martial arts scenes adequate time
b) The producers failed to give the martial arts scenes adequate talent
This is similar to the classic observation of "Ice cream sales go up when murder rates go up." There is a causal relationship here, but not between "a" and "b". Instead, they are both the result of c:
c) The producers wanted to shoot a martial arts series without showing any real respect for what goes into it.
The producers assumed that they could get away with cutting corners in this production, and those corners show up in the final product.
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
That's not anything like what Danny Rand is supposed to be. On any level.
Where do people keep getting this stuff from?
Danny Rand is not the best martial artist on the planet. Danny Rand is not the best martial artist in K'un Lun. I would go so far as to say that Danny Rand is not even the best martial artist in New York. He is not any of those things in any context. In any form. In any media.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
He is one of the best martial artists on Earth, Rand isn't known for being either mediocre or a poor fighter. To be the Iron Fist requires immense skill and training which goes beyond what we see in our world, too. Unless they want us to think Kun-Lun sabotaged his training on purpose or make real shitty Iron Fists. If this was made in the 90's this type of thing would be more accepted since the quality of super-hero shows weren't as high as they today and today his show is a successor to Netflix's Daredevil. Rand should be the eminently qualified martial artist of the group, because what he's bringing to the table isn't knowledge of the ancient world
DD wouldn't be impressed by what he knows about the Hand pre-New York,
he isn't a strategist, he isn't a leader etc.
There's no shame in being the weakest Immortal Weapon, just to get on that level is being an utterly amazing martial artist. And no, he needn't be the best Iron Fist to walk the Earth but he doesn't have to be to be a huge threat. Aang wasn't the world's best Avatar, either - and when he was a kid he was one of the most dangerous people on the planet.
And for the love of god if this gets a next season the show should try to raise its game on choreography rivaling DD or Into The Badlands. This is a kung fu show in the modern times, if they can't they may as well cancel it instead. Like they should have done with this season until they got their ducks in a row before tainting the Marvel brand.
That's not anything like what Danny Rand is supposed to be. On any level.
Where do people keep getting this stuff from?
Danny Rand is not the best martial artist on the planet. Danny Rand is not the best martial artist in K'un Lun. I would go so far as to say that Danny Rand is not even the best martial artist in New York. He is not any of those things in any context. In any form. In any media.
Danny is generally considered one of the best martial artists on the planet. And most of his rivals for that title do not currently exist in the MCU (i.e., Shang-Chi).
Master Martial Artist: Rand is a master of K'un-Lun's martial arts and is proficient in many of Earth's, including but not limited to: Kunlunquan, Shaolinquan, Judo, Aikido, Ninjutsu, Karate, Boxing and even loose street fighting tactics. Recently, he has gained access to the knowledge, experience and skills of all the Iron Fists before him. When temporarily blinded by Sabretooth, he was able to still defeat the lethal mutant, without even using his chi powers. He is also skilled in unique chi based techniques, such as the "Drunken style" that masks him from such things as Spider-Man's Spider-Sense and Mister X's telepathic reflexes. He is one of the greatest martial artists on Earth; having held his own against Wolverine and Captain America. Rand also holds notable victories over Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Sabretooth, Batroc, Black Dragon, Nightshade, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Colossus, and Nightcrawler. He also possesses infinite ways to kill a man, such as the Black-Black Poison Touch which uses his chi to kill anyone in the close vicinity.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
Those rivals aren't from Earth. Nor are they in this series.
I'm pointing out that Finn Jones physical abilities as an actor are far below that of an entry level actor, and your response is that Danny Rand as a character has martial artists from other dimensions that are even better than he is.
I would be interested in seeing how they each did individually after the first 15 minutes when they first learned that, and not, in some cases, probably 15 years after they first learned it.
The mirroring exercise I pointed to earlier takes place in real time. And it's intended for total amateurs.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth
What??
Since when?
The show doesn't even remotely call him that, and in Marvel comics you could find enough better Martial Artists to eek him out of the top ten.
Fake Edit: oh, sorry. Just scrolled down and saw that you goalpost shiftet to "one of the best". Go on then.
They do establish that in order to become the Iron Fist, Danny had to defeat a dragon. When "able to defeat a dragon" is the baseline level of skill the show sets for the character, the audience would expect something really impressive.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth
What??
Since when?
The show doesn't even remotely call him that, and in Marvel comics you could find enough better Martial Artists to eek him out of the top ten.
Fake Edit: oh, sorry. Just scrolled down and saw that you goalpost shiftet to "one of the best". Go on then.
How many of those other martial artists who can eek him out are within the MCU?
According to his bio, he's beaten Daredevil and is even with Captain America. And Captain America has the benefit of a super soldier serum, so that's not a test of pure skill.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth
What??
Since when?
The show doesn't even remotely call him that, and in Marvel comics you could find enough better Martial Artists to eek him out of the top ten.
Fake Edit: oh, sorry. Just scrolled down and saw that you goalpost shiftet to "one of the best". Go on then.
How many of those other martial artists who can eek him out are within the MCU?
According to his bio, he's beaten Daredevil and is even with Captain America. And Captain America has the benefit of a super soldier serum, so that's not a test of pure skill.
Depends, how many Martial Artists are there in the MCU right now?
But you seem to confuse me with someone who thinks that Finn's Martial Arts ability's were at all sufficient for someone potraying the Iron Fist.
Please don't. I was solely interested in pointing out that he isn't "the best", I have zero problems with calling him one of the best or being less than happy with the time they gave the actor to prepare for the role.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth
What??
Since when?
The show doesn't even remotely call him that, and in Marvel comics you could find enough better Martial Artists to eek him out of the top ten.
Fake Edit: oh, sorry. Just scrolled down and saw that you goalpost shiftet to "one of the best". Go on then.
How many of those other martial artists who can eek him out are within the MCU?
According to his bio, he's beaten Daredevil and is even with Captain America. And Captain America has the benefit of a super soldier serum, so that's not a test of pure skill.
Actually, it is. Cap may have an advantage with his super serum, but he isn't an untrained amateur. He's a very highly skilled combatant. Not sure I'd call him a martial artist per se, but he is an expert with close quarters combat systems.
I will take the better actor every time for something like a Marvel film, because the character is super important.
Plus, you can train a guy to look "good enough" given enough time that special effects, body doubles and stuntpeople can fill in the rest.
The "given enough time" is the biggest issue here. He clearly was not.
You're right, but they knew they didn't have the time for this and they crippled themselves further by not having IF wear a super-hero costume. I'm not saying they should have gotten the best martial artist in the world with no acting skill, merely the bare minimum of the knowledge of skill to fake it without being an embarrassment. They also had the option of re-slotting other actors from other roles who could this, like Henwick if she was cast first, but obviously Danny being white meant more to Buck than having an Asian or woman in the role who might be more qualified. It's not like there aren't numerous people in Hollywood going to auditions he could have chosen, and it's not like he was looking for a big star for the main role either.
I really want the press to interrogate Scott Buck about these stupid decisions.
+1
Options
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Cap is a martial artist. He doesn't exclusively portray an Asian martial art, but he is undoubtedly a martial artist.
Regardless of whether or not you think the Iron Fist is supposed to be "the best" martial artist or "one of the best" martial artists in the Marvel universe, the fact of the matter is that he's supposed to be a really, really good one. And the scene Shrodinger highlights is glaring because Jones just doesn't look good doing a basic form.
Frankly, it doesn't matter if Jones "only" had 15 minutes to learn a scene before filming. Any dancer or martial artist would be able to pull that off no problem. That scene with Bakuto would take me a good 10 minutes to learn. It is a very simple form with about 15 movements and it takes 20 seconds to actually complete. And I am a mediocre martial artist. I'm betting there are hundreds of actors out there who could do the same who aren't even actual martial artists.
If they knew their constraints going in with regards to the amount of time the actor would have to learn fight scenes, they should've casted appropriately. That's really the long and short of it. This has nothing to do with race. It's akin to casting a musical and then not hiring someone who can sing even though you only have a week to prepare. At the very least, the actor has to be able to learn the song, and sing it in key, in that period of time. If not, then you should not be considering the actor for that part.
+4
Options
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
I biggest thing I don't get is the seeming need for people that disliked the show to make others dislike it. With Luke Cage, people that disliked it said their piece and moved on. I was one of them.
Iron Fist is different. The people that dislike it seem to have this inner need to hang around and try to convince those that enjoyed it that they shouldn't have enjoyed it.
Kind of weird seeing it happen.
+8
Options
Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
I biggest thing I don't get is the seeming need for people that disliked the show to make others dislike it. With Luke Cage, people that disliked it said their piece and moved on. I was one of them.
Iron Fist is different. The people that dislike it seem to have this inner need to hang around and try to convince those that enjoyed it that they shouldn't have enjoyed it.
Kind of weird seeing it happen.
Luke Cage, despite and possibly because of its flaws nailed the character and genre they were riffing on.
Iron Fist has fuckawful fight choreography and dude is supposed to be better than Daredevil.
I biggest thing I don't get is the seeming need for people that disliked the show to make others dislike it.
Except that whenever people say they genuinely liked the show, no one tries to correct them or make them change their mind.
The question of whether or not Scott Buck is a competent director is completely separate from the question of whether or not specific individuals enjoyed it.
I biggest thing I don't get is the seeming need for people that disliked the show to make others dislike it. With Luke Cage, people that disliked it said their piece and moved on. I was one of them.
Iron Fist is different. The people that dislike it seem to have this inner need to hang around and try to convince those that enjoyed it that they shouldn't have enjoyed it.
Kind of weird seeing it happen.
I disagree, all I see is people giving their opinions there isn't peer pressure to like the show. If you like it, cool - I have no beef with that.
I wouldn't say this is like Luke Cage, which was flawed, IF is polarising and/or getting mixed reception. That's why it's getting this heat, any Marvel (this goes double for Netflix) show that was a disappointment to a large enough fan base/ reviewers will get a similar reception. This has also occurred to films like Iron Man 2, Incredible Hulk and Age of Ultron.
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
So the fact that Finn Jones doesn't even possess the skill to the same extent as a first year drama student practicing for non-physical roles is embarrassing. Even more so because -- unlike a drama student -- Finn Jones has the opportunity to learn all of these movements in advance -- rather than having to react in real time (as his character would). Not only that, but these movements are also synced to an actual speech, which means that it's not too different from learning to dance in sync.
Aside from the timing, the movements themselves are completely wrong. i.e., Bakuto has his right hand to his chin and his left arm bent up. Danny has his right hand to the base of his neck and his right arm bent down. It's completely wrong.
But I suppose now you'll tell me that Danny Rand is only supposed to be a martial arts master and not an acting student, so the ability to learn precise muscle movements isn't supposed to be important to his character at all.
And unless I'm mistaken you don't take entry exams for acting jobs, you audition for them.
And since when are basic acting skills not covered under the audition process?
lol, show me someone who, when being shown a new martial arts technique by a teacher, immediately copies it perfectly, in perfect sync with the teacher, the first time it's shown, and you MIGHT have a point. (Hint: you won't be able to.)
lol, show me someone who, when being shown a new martial arts technique by a teacher, immediately copies it perfectly, in perfect sync with the teacher, the first time it's shown, and you MIGHT have a point. (Hint: you won't be able to.)
Show me someone who's managed to master their inner chi to create an iron fist.
Once again: Mirroring is a common technique taught to entry level actors as a warmup exercise.
But somehow, the idea of a fictional character who's mastered his inner chi being able to do the same or better is completely unreasonable.
In real life, normal people don't randomly break out in improvised song and dance numbers in perfect sync with one another. And yet this seems to happen in musicals all the time. What gives? Do you know what the secret is? It's because we hire these people called "actors" who are paid to learn their instructions in advance, in order to generate a performance that would be otherwise unattainable. If you have a dance number where one of the actors is completely out of sync with everyone else, people notice.
Shouting, "But in real life, being in perfect sync for a dance number is hard!" isn't an excuse.
The same thing applies to Kung Fu movies. Do you think that that "Drunken Master" is a realistic depiction of Jackie Chan when he's drunk? Of course it isn't. Do you think that the fight scenes are being filmed in real time, and the performers are simply making it up on the fly? Nope. Good Kung Fu scenes require a lot of very precise coordination that would never happen in the real world. If Finn can't nail something as basic as a tai chi exercise, then he has no business working in this genre.
You also disregarded the part where even if you ignore the timing, the actual forms themselves do not match up.
Edit: There's also a limited number of basic tai chi forms out there, just like there's a limited number of keys on a piano. There is variation on how you order the keys, but it's not like you have to re-learn what "middle c" is every time you learn a new song. If Danny Rand really did learn to master his inner chi, then he should already be familiar with all the forms, and the only thing left to learn is the actual sequence.
What, pray tell, is the difference between creative license and failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about?
A lot depends on why the error is occurring. Is it because the writers didn't bother to care, or is it because it was a necessary change in order to move the plot? i.e., I'm pretty sure that there aren't any magical schools of Wizardry in real world Britain, but you can't have the story of Harry Potter without it.
No one is criticizing Iron Fist on the basis that "K'un Lun" isn't a real city, or on the basis that punching through steel doors is physically impossible for a human being. Because we understand that those things are necessary to move the story. Likewise, CPR in movies is often a necessary device to ensure that characters don't die. Because letting the characters die would mess up the plot. But that's very different from what Iron Fist is criticized for. It's not creative license when Finn Jones can't perform a basic kata.
Another major difference is that even when shows like "House" get plenty of medical information wrong, it's clear that they still did do a lot of research to come up with terminology that 99% of the population would be otherwise familiar with. Mistakes still happen, but that's because medicine is really, really hard even when you try. Where as "Iron Fist" should no intellectual curiosity on behalf of the writers whatsoever. It's just one established pop culture cliche after another. Not just in terms of martial arts, but also in terms of corporate politics.
Beyond that though, even if you chalk abysmal CPR portrayal up to creative license, the negative impact it has upon people who go on to expect absurd and unrealistic life-saving efforts on the part of doctors treating their loved ones far outweighs any realistic negative impact on/caused by people who develop an incorrect understanding of Bushido or the practice of kung fu. So, again, why should I expect better from Hollywood when it comes to the latter than I do with the former?
No one is blaming Iron Fist for the fact that it gives people unrealistic expectations that you can destroy buildings by punching them really hard, so that's a very bad counter example.
Your reply betrays such a tragic misunderstanding of modern medicine and portrayals thereof that I honestly don't know how to respond.
For starters, most medical shows on television are "one established pop culture cliche after another." Using appropriate terminology doesn't matter for shit if the actual medicine being portrayed is unrealistic to the point of having almost no resemblance to real life beyond terminology. And the truth is that the terminology is usually completely wrong as well. Being familiar to people does not equate to being remotely correct.
You have a poor understanding of what makes for a good or bad example, as well. Give me a good reason why I should care about technical expertise and correctness in portrayals of subjects such as kung fu or Bushido in Iron Fist more than I should care about such expertise and correctness in medical dramas, legal dramas, computing/hacking dramas and so on and so forth. I provided an example of why such areas should be of more importance. The fact is that the vast majority of television viewers don't give a shit about technical expertise and correctness in any of those areas. So why should we begin to care now, with Iron Fist? What makes the subject matter of Iron Fist more important to be portrayed correctly than the areas I mentioned? How are the creators of the Iron Fist show being more disrespectful than the creators of any typical medical/legal/hacking/military/technical whatever drama? Be specific.
So first of all, "this other thing is done poorly in other shows, so you can't complain about this thing being done poorly in this show" is a very silly argument. Unrealistic portrayals of CPR and so on are bad, and should be called out for being bad and harmful to the general population's expectations and understanding of medical treatment. But the fact that they are bad does not then absolve everything else that is also bad. "Fuck it, Chicago Hope doesn't do CPR right, no one should ever try to do anything right on film ever again!"
I agree with you that consistent unrealistic portrayal of, for example, CPR, is more harmful to society than a poor portrayal of martial arts on a kung fu show. But that's not really the issue. The issue is this: I've taken a couple of first-aid courses in my life, but I'm not a doctor and I have basically no experience with any of that. When I see CPR on TV, it's not obvious to me that it isn't realistic. I only know that it isn't from reading discussions like this online. A doctor character could be doing things completely incorrectly and I wouldn't know. When it comes to martial arts, I have even less real-world experience. I've seen people practicing tai chi in the park, and I took maybe three hours of kung fu classes 15 years ago. But when I watch Finn Jones in Iron Fist, it is glaringly obvious that he's a beginner. The show tells us that he's a master (the best? one of the best? super-good? whatever) martial artist but it's showing me clear as day that he isn't. That's the difference.
Again, I don't think it's fair to bag on Finn Jones for that. If I'd had the opportunity to audition for that part, and they'd offered it to me, I'd have taken it. He wasn't given enough time to become believable as a martial arts expert. I think it is absolutely fair to call out the producers for rushing this, and for choosing to cast someone with no martial arts experience given that they knew there wouldn't be time for him to learn it properly. If it's true that they were giving them the choreography less than an hour before shooting, that is absolutely awful. I think it's pretty fair to say that the people in charge really didn't care that much or have the appropriate respect for what they were supposed to have been doing.
Yeah, the shooting school bungling isn't Finn's fault he did what he could. I'm not going to fault him for screwing up, though that doesn't absolve the fact it's obvious whatever he did wasn't enough to fake it for the audiences. Ultimately the responsibility rests on Buck, and Marvel/Netflix not giving the show the proper production schedule needed to get it right. That said, they shouldn't been caught this badly off-guard after, what was it? 2 years in development and this all we got. I hope everyone learnt the right lessons from this and Buck isn't allowed 100 meters near a Marvel show again*.
* it's to bad they're in the middle of filming Inhuman with him right now, so that's possibly another series he's going to screw over and hopefully that one wasn't screwed with on the production side like IF was
Luke Cage, despite and possibly because of its flaws nailed the character and genre they were riffing on.
It was a fine show, but I don't think I can necessarily agree with the first half of this. The Luke Cage that appears in the MCU is pretty different from the ones from the comics.
0
Options
JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
Luke Cage, despite and possibly because of its flaws nailed the character and genre they were riffing on.
It was a fine show, but I don't think I can necessarily agree with the first half of this. The Luke Cage that appears in the MCU is pretty different from the ones from the comics.
Adaptions don't have be completely exact. Some need to tweaked more than others, and some have adaptions with inspired takes. Personally, I thought that was one of the best versions of the character I've ever seen. DD and JJ the characters and their shows/casts also have had differences minor and major to the comics they're adapting. For example, Karen Page is very different from the comics - there she's virtually a carbon copy blonde clone of Mary Jane Watson with a bad past and DD 1 spoilers
Umm, that's an in-character scene. Danny is not an actor who went to film school, he's a martial artist copying a teacher.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
The intent isn't in question, the believability is. IF did many scenes that were supposed to convey something, yet failed the execution.
Harry Dresden on
+2
Options
JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
They do establish that in order to become the Iron Fist, Danny had to defeat a dragon. When "able to defeat a dragon" is the baseline level of skill the show sets for the character, the audience would expect something really impressive.
to be clear, in the comics he doesn't so much fight the dragon as hug it real hard.
Posts
I'm with Atomika; I loved the character arc but the character himself, all the way down to the way he talks, make me think he is "slow" - i think the actor is trying to portray stick up the butt but all I get is "kicked in the head by a mule when he was five"
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Language is malleable. Once a certain tipping point is reached, it doesn't matter how grammatically incorrect something was to begin with - if enough of the populace uses a particular word, or phrase, or grammatical construct it eventually becomes correct. You can say "ATM machine is not a real phrase" until you're blue in the face, but your feelings on the matter will be crushed under the weight of people who use the term "ATM machine" regularly. See, for example, "bored of." If I would have said that I was "bored of" something when I was in grammar school, my English teachers would have broken me of the habit immediately. As far as I'm concerned based on standards for English when I was in school, "bored of" is some serious bullshit. But people use it all the time now, to the point that it is considered to be correct more often than not. So, you know, c'est la vie. I shrug my shoulders and accept it, even if I won't ever say it myself. If "Bushido Code" is more understandable to audiences than simply saying "Bushido" then go ahead and run with it. Getting hung up on something like that is a losing proposition.
As far as hiring experts or doing basic research on the thing you're making a TV series about: lolololololol. See 99% of all series ever centered around medicine, hacking or other tech-centric topics, and pretty much anything else with a technical basis that has been portrayed fictionally. Hell, anything involving courtroom drama or the law, for the most part. Giving viewers the wrong idea about how CPR works, or other life-saving interventions in a hospital-setting, is way more harmful than giving them the wrong idea about Bushido, or martial arts. Nobody in Hollywood bothers to portray aspects of medicine correctly that actually affect people on a regular basis, so why would we hold them to a higher standard for portrayals of kung fu or Bushido that are far less likely to actually result in a misunderstanding in the daily lives of viewers?
Medical shows that get basic medicine wrong and hacking shows that get technology wrong are mocked and made fun of all the time. Usually they can get away with it if the characters are compelling enough to serve as a distraction, which isn't the case in Iron Fist.
The lack of respect of Iron First goes way beyond phrasing. The kata scenes are absolutely horrible. Even a total lay audience with no background on martial arts can tell that the movements don't match up at all, and that's something that a director who actually cares about the end product should have caught and corrected. But that's not the case here.
There's a difference between creative license and total lack of respect. Portraying CPR unrealistically is creative license. Talking about chi as if it grants superhuman abilities is creative license. Failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about is lack of respect.
What, pray tell, is the difference between creative license and failure to give a damn about the thing your show is about?
Because my wife, who is a doctor, would absolutely class CPR portrayal (along with most other practice of medicine portrayal) in the vast majority of television shows under failure to give a damn rather than creative license. Most other medical professionals I know would as well. So what is that defines the difference between the two areas to you, objectively?
Beyond that though, even if you chalk abysmal CPR portrayal up to creative license, the negative impact it has upon people who go on to expect absurd and unrealistic life-saving efforts on the part of doctors treating their loved ones far outweighs any realistic negative impact on/caused by people who develop an incorrect understanding of Bushido or the practice of kung fu. So, again, why should I expect better from Hollywood when it comes to the latter than I do with the former?
A lot depends on why the error is occurring. Is it because the writers didn't bother to care, or is it because it was a necessary change in order to move the plot? i.e., I'm pretty sure that there aren't any magical schools of Wizardry in real world Britain, but you can't have the story of Harry Potter without it.
No one is criticizing Iron Fist on the basis that "K'un Lun" isn't a real city, or on the basis that punching through steel doors is physically impossible for a human being. Because we understand that those things are necessary to move the story. Likewise, CPR in movies is often a necessary device to ensure that characters don't die. Because letting the characters die would mess up the plot. But that's very different from what Iron Fist is criticized for. It's not creative license when Finn Jones can't perform a basic kata.
Another major difference is that even when shows like "House" get plenty of medical information wrong, it's clear that they still did do a lot of research to come up with terminology that 99% of the population would be otherwise familiar with. Mistakes still happen, but that's because medicine is really, really hard even when you try. Where as "Iron Fist" should no intellectual curiosity on behalf of the writers whatsoever. It's just one established pop culture cliche after another. Not just in terms of martial arts, but also in terms of corporate politics.
No one is blaming Iron Fist for the fact that it gives people unrealistic expectations that you can destroy buildings by punching them really hard, so that's a very bad counter example.
I don't think he's underwritten at all. His character is actually extremely consistent and clear across the series. The plotting just generally isn't as sharp as it needs to be and doesn't highlight this. By the same extent while Finn Jones ain't the world's greatest actor, he seems to nail the majority of what Danny Rand is in his scenes.
Your reply betrays such a tragic misunderstanding of modern medicine and portrayals thereof that I honestly don't know how to respond.
For starters, most medical shows on television are "one established pop culture cliche after another." Using appropriate terminology doesn't matter for shit if the actual medicine being portrayed is unrealistic to the point of having almost no resemblance to real life beyond terminology. And the truth is that the terminology is usually completely wrong as well. Being familiar to people does not equate to being remotely correct.
You have a poor understanding of what makes for a good or bad example, as well. Give me a good reason why I should care about technical expertise and correctness in portrayals of subjects such as kung fu or Bushido in Iron Fist more than I should care about such expertise and correctness in medical dramas, legal dramas, computing/hacking dramas and so on and so forth. I provided an example of why such areas should be of more importance. The fact is that the vast majority of television viewers don't give a shit about technical expertise and correctness in any of those areas. So why should we begin to care now, with Iron Fist? What makes the subject matter of Iron Fist more important to be portrayed correctly than the areas I mentioned? How are the creators of the Iron Fist show being more disrespectful than the creators of any typical medical/legal/hacking/military/technical whatever drama? Be specific.
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
A common acting exercise involves "mirroring." Not Kung Fu acting, but regular acting. The process involves two partners stand face to face, and one partner attempts to "mirror" the other in real time by paying attention to subtle cues.
https://sdea.org.sg/mirror-exercise-classic-drama-warm-up-activity/
The fact that the directors never tested Finn on such a basic acting skill is shameful. It's like auditioning someone for a musical and not testing for whether they can sing on key. And then being told that this is the best singer on the entire planet far superior to every other singer.
Your drama exercise and the clip from the show are not the same thing.
And unless I'm mistaken you don't take entry exams for acting jobs, you audition for them.
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
That's not something that being a stunt man would have fixed either. Jesus, not even they would do a job where they got less than half an hour to learn a fight sequence. Yes, the other people got more time, they're also in less fight scenes overall.
The ability to anticipate body language should be a basic skill for any high level martial artists. When someone tries to punch you in the head, you need to move out of the way before it happens, which means you need the ability to see it coming. It's even more important in the movies, where fighters need to develop a level of trust and rapport with one another.
Since Danny is supposed to be the best martial artist on planet Earth and Bakuto is moving at a snails pace, he should have no problem following along. His character should have this skill developed to an extent that excels anyone short of "Taskmaster."
So the fact that Finn Jones doesn't even possess the skill to the same extent as a first year drama student practicing for non-physical roles is embarrassing. Even more so because -- unlike a drama student -- Finn Jones has the opportunity to learn all of these movements in advance -- rather than having to react in real time (as his character would). Not only that, but these movements are also synced to an actual speech, which means that it's not too different from learning to dance in sync.
Aside from the timing, the movements themselves are completely wrong. i.e., Bakuto has his right hand to his chin and his left arm bent up. Danny has his right hand to the base of his neck and his right arm bent down. It's completely wrong.
But I suppose now you'll tell me that Danny Rand is only supposed to be a martial arts master and not an acting student, so the ability to learn precise muscle movements isn't supposed to be important to his character at all.
And since when are basic acting skills not covered under the audition process?
Here's a random youtube clip of a group of senior citizens performing tai chi.
They are not professional performers. They are not auditioning to be the lead in a martial arts people. They're just a group of regular people looking to relax and get some exercise. And they're still doing a better job than Finn Jones.
But I guess it's unrealistic to expect Finn Jones to have more physical coordination than a random senior citizen.
That's not anything like what Danny Rand is supposed to be. On any level.
Where do people keep getting this stuff from?
Danny Rand is not the best martial artist on the planet. Danny Rand is not the best martial artist in K'un Lun. I would go so far as to say that Danny Rand is not even the best martial artist in New York. He is not any of those things in any context. In any form. In any media.
Even in the series that sees him fighting the other Immortal Weapons for the position of K'un Lun in the celestial order, they make it really clear that Danny is neither the best fighter in K'un Lun, or the best Immortal Weapon, or even the best Iron Fist.
I would be interested in seeing how they each did individually after the first 15 minutes when they first learned that, and not, in some cases, probably 15 years after they first learned it.
There are two problems here:
a) The producers failed to give the martial arts scenes adequate time
b) The producers failed to give the martial arts scenes adequate talent
This is similar to the classic observation of "Ice cream sales go up when murder rates go up." There is a causal relationship here, but not between "a" and "b". Instead, they are both the result of c:
c) The producers wanted to shoot a martial arts series without showing any real respect for what goes into it.
The producers assumed that they could get away with cutting corners in this production, and those corners show up in the final product.
He is one of the best martial artists on Earth, Rand isn't known for being either mediocre or a poor fighter. To be the Iron Fist requires immense skill and training which goes beyond what we see in our world, too. Unless they want us to think Kun-Lun sabotaged his training on purpose or make real shitty Iron Fists. If this was made in the 90's this type of thing would be more accepted since the quality of super-hero shows weren't as high as they today and today his show is a successor to Netflix's Daredevil. Rand should be the eminently qualified martial artist of the group, because what he's bringing to the table isn't knowledge of the ancient world
There's no shame in being the weakest Immortal Weapon, just to get on that level is being an utterly amazing martial artist. And no, he needn't be the best Iron Fist to walk the Earth but he doesn't have to be to be a huge threat. Aang wasn't the world's best Avatar, either - and when he was a kid he was one of the most dangerous people on the planet.
And for the love of god if this gets a next season the show should try to raise its game on choreography rivaling DD or Into The Badlands. This is a kung fu show in the modern times, if they can't they may as well cancel it instead. Like they should have done with this season until they got their ducks in a row before tainting the Marvel brand.
Danny is generally considered one of the best martial artists on the planet. And most of his rivals for that title do not currently exist in the MCU (i.e., Shang-Chi).
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Daniel_Rand_(Earth-616)
Master Martial Artist: Rand is a master of K'un-Lun's martial arts and is proficient in many of Earth's, including but not limited to: Kunlunquan, Shaolinquan, Judo, Aikido, Ninjutsu, Karate, Boxing and even loose street fighting tactics. Recently, he has gained access to the knowledge, experience and skills of all the Iron Fists before him. When temporarily blinded by Sabretooth, he was able to still defeat the lethal mutant, without even using his chi powers. He is also skilled in unique chi based techniques, such as the "Drunken style" that masks him from such things as Spider-Man's Spider-Sense and Mister X's telepathic reflexes. He is one of the greatest martial artists on Earth; having held his own against Wolverine and Captain America. Rand also holds notable victories over Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Sabretooth, Batroc, Black Dragon, Nightshade, Spider-Man, Daredevil, Colossus, and Nightcrawler. He also possesses infinite ways to kill a man, such as the Black-Black Poison Touch which uses his chi to kill anyone in the close vicinity.
Those rivals aren't from Earth. Nor are they in this series.
I'm pointing out that Finn Jones physical abilities as an actor are far below that of an entry level actor, and your response is that Danny Rand as a character has martial artists from other dimensions that are even better than he is.
The mirroring exercise I pointed to earlier takes place in real time. And it's intended for total amateurs.
What??
Since when?
The show doesn't even remotely call him that, and in Marvel comics you could find enough better Martial Artists to eek him out of the top ten.
Fake Edit: oh, sorry. Just scrolled down and saw that you goalpost shiftet to "one of the best". Go on then.
How many of those other martial artists who can eek him out are within the MCU?
According to his bio, he's beaten Daredevil and is even with Captain America. And Captain America has the benefit of a super soldier serum, so that's not a test of pure skill.
Depends, how many Martial Artists are there in the MCU right now?
But you seem to confuse me with someone who thinks that Finn's Martial Arts ability's were at all sufficient for someone potraying the Iron Fist.
Please don't. I was solely interested in pointing out that he isn't "the best", I have zero problems with calling him one of the best or being less than happy with the time they gave the actor to prepare for the role.
Actually, it is. Cap may have an advantage with his super serum, but he isn't an untrained amateur. He's a very highly skilled combatant. Not sure I'd call him a martial artist per se, but he is an expert with close quarters combat systems.
His comic self is even better than that.
You're right, but they knew they didn't have the time for this and they crippled themselves further by not having IF wear a super-hero costume. I'm not saying they should have gotten the best martial artist in the world with no acting skill, merely the bare minimum of the knowledge of skill to fake it without being an embarrassment. They also had the option of re-slotting other actors from other roles who could this, like Henwick if she was cast first, but obviously Danny being white meant more to Buck than having an Asian or woman in the role who might be more qualified. It's not like there aren't numerous people in Hollywood going to auditions he could have chosen, and it's not like he was looking for a big star for the main role either.
I really want the press to interrogate Scott Buck about these stupid decisions.
Regardless of whether or not you think the Iron Fist is supposed to be "the best" martial artist or "one of the best" martial artists in the Marvel universe, the fact of the matter is that he's supposed to be a really, really good one. And the scene Shrodinger highlights is glaring because Jones just doesn't look good doing a basic form.
Frankly, it doesn't matter if Jones "only" had 15 minutes to learn a scene before filming. Any dancer or martial artist would be able to pull that off no problem. That scene with Bakuto would take me a good 10 minutes to learn. It is a very simple form with about 15 movements and it takes 20 seconds to actually complete. And I am a mediocre martial artist. I'm betting there are hundreds of actors out there who could do the same who aren't even actual martial artists.
If they knew their constraints going in with regards to the amount of time the actor would have to learn fight scenes, they should've casted appropriately. That's really the long and short of it. This has nothing to do with race. It's akin to casting a musical and then not hiring someone who can sing even though you only have a week to prepare. At the very least, the actor has to be able to learn the song, and sing it in key, in that period of time. If not, then you should not be considering the actor for that part.
Iron Fist is different. The people that dislike it seem to have this inner need to hang around and try to convince those that enjoyed it that they shouldn't have enjoyed it.
Kind of weird seeing it happen.
Luke Cage, despite and possibly because of its flaws nailed the character and genre they were riffing on.
Iron Fist has fuckawful fight choreography and dude is supposed to be better than Daredevil.
It is fucking criminal.
Except that whenever people say they genuinely liked the show, no one tries to correct them or make them change their mind.
The question of whether or not Scott Buck is a competent director is completely separate from the question of whether or not specific individuals enjoyed it.
I disagree, all I see is people giving their opinions there isn't peer pressure to like the show. If you like it, cool - I have no beef with that.
I wouldn't say this is like Luke Cage, which was flawed, IF is polarising and/or getting mixed reception. That's why it's getting this heat, any Marvel (this goes double for Netflix) show that was a disappointment to a large enough fan base/ reviewers will get a similar reception. This has also occurred to films like Iron Man 2, Incredible Hulk and Age of Ultron.
lol, show me someone who, when being shown a new martial arts technique by a teacher, immediately copies it perfectly, in perfect sync with the teacher, the first time it's shown, and you MIGHT have a point. (Hint: you won't be able to.)
Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.
I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
Show me someone who's managed to master their inner chi to create an iron fist.
Once again: Mirroring is a common technique taught to entry level actors as a warmup exercise.
But somehow, the idea of a fictional character who's mastered his inner chi being able to do the same or better is completely unreasonable.
In real life, normal people don't randomly break out in improvised song and dance numbers in perfect sync with one another. And yet this seems to happen in musicals all the time. What gives? Do you know what the secret is? It's because we hire these people called "actors" who are paid to learn their instructions in advance, in order to generate a performance that would be otherwise unattainable. If you have a dance number where one of the actors is completely out of sync with everyone else, people notice.
Shouting, "But in real life, being in perfect sync for a dance number is hard!" isn't an excuse.
The same thing applies to Kung Fu movies. Do you think that that "Drunken Master" is a realistic depiction of Jackie Chan when he's drunk? Of course it isn't. Do you think that the fight scenes are being filmed in real time, and the performers are simply making it up on the fly? Nope. Good Kung Fu scenes require a lot of very precise coordination that would never happen in the real world. If Finn can't nail something as basic as a tai chi exercise, then he has no business working in this genre.
You also disregarded the part where even if you ignore the timing, the actual forms themselves do not match up.
Edit: There's also a limited number of basic tai chi forms out there, just like there's a limited number of keys on a piano. There is variation on how you order the keys, but it's not like you have to re-learn what "middle c" is every time you learn a new song. If Danny Rand really did learn to master his inner chi, then he should already be familiar with all the forms, and the only thing left to learn is the actual sequence.
Here's a scene from the Karate Kid remake where a woman martial arts practitioner demonstrates real time mirroring with a snake.
So first of all, "this other thing is done poorly in other shows, so you can't complain about this thing being done poorly in this show" is a very silly argument. Unrealistic portrayals of CPR and so on are bad, and should be called out for being bad and harmful to the general population's expectations and understanding of medical treatment. But the fact that they are bad does not then absolve everything else that is also bad. "Fuck it, Chicago Hope doesn't do CPR right, no one should ever try to do anything right on film ever again!"
I agree with you that consistent unrealistic portrayal of, for example, CPR, is more harmful to society than a poor portrayal of martial arts on a kung fu show. But that's not really the issue. The issue is this: I've taken a couple of first-aid courses in my life, but I'm not a doctor and I have basically no experience with any of that. When I see CPR on TV, it's not obvious to me that it isn't realistic. I only know that it isn't from reading discussions like this online. A doctor character could be doing things completely incorrectly and I wouldn't know. When it comes to martial arts, I have even less real-world experience. I've seen people practicing tai chi in the park, and I took maybe three hours of kung fu classes 15 years ago. But when I watch Finn Jones in Iron Fist, it is glaringly obvious that he's a beginner. The show tells us that he's a master (the best? one of the best? super-good? whatever) martial artist but it's showing me clear as day that he isn't. That's the difference.
Again, I don't think it's fair to bag on Finn Jones for that. If I'd had the opportunity to audition for that part, and they'd offered it to me, I'd have taken it. He wasn't given enough time to become believable as a martial arts expert. I think it is absolutely fair to call out the producers for rushing this, and for choosing to cast someone with no martial arts experience given that they knew there wouldn't be time for him to learn it properly. If it's true that they were giving them the choreography less than an hour before shooting, that is absolutely awful. I think it's pretty fair to say that the people in charge really didn't care that much or have the appropriate respect for what they were supposed to have been doing.
* it's to bad they're in the middle of filming Inhuman with him right now, so that's possibly another series he's going to screw over and hopefully that one wasn't screwed with on the production side like IF was
It was a fine show, but I don't think I can necessarily agree with the first half of this. The Luke Cage that appears in the MCU is pretty different from the ones from the comics.
also, the scene is meant to portray how these moves are actually natural to danny. Which is why he at first clearly follows the teacher, and at some point keeps doing the moves even when the teacher stops.
the intent is clear, and it comes across. who cares if real martial artists can mirror perfectly, it is besides the point.
Adaptions don't have be completely exact. Some need to tweaked more than others, and some have adaptions with inspired takes. Personally, I thought that was one of the best versions of the character I've ever seen. DD and JJ the characters and their shows/casts also have had differences minor and major to the comics they're adapting. For example, Karen Page is very different from the comics - there she's virtually a carbon copy blonde clone of Mary Jane Watson with a bad past and DD 1 spoilers
The intent isn't in question, the believability is. IF did many scenes that were supposed to convey something, yet failed the execution.
to be clear, in the comics he doesn't so much fight the dragon as hug it real hard.