Saying that it's 'masturbatory' to want to play the hero in an RPG is pretty stupid. The entire exercise is pretty masturbatory. I don't want my character to 'strive to be like Drizzt' -- I want Drizzt to strive to be more like my character.
Eberron managed to make an awesome setting without making other adventurers 'cornerstones' of the setting. If I'm playing DND to be the hero, why is it masturbatory (lolz) for me to want to be actual hero and not the supporting role?
What he's saying is it's masturbatory to want to be THE ONLY or THE MOST IMPORTANT hero in the entire game world. And it is. It's fine being the hero of your game, but if you're not happy unless your character is the end all be all cornerstone of the entire game world, guess what, you're the same npc's that you hate so much. If thats how you play, thats fine, but I'm personally out to play a GOOD STORY. If I'm not the cornerstone of the whole goddamn world, thats fine, as long as I'm having fun. My ego doesn't demand that everyone suck my dick because I'm a player character. And really, a lot of the FR hate I've seen over the years boils down to just that, ego.
From a world building perspective however it helps to have a lot of "room" for the PCs to get involved, rather than the expectation that Someone Else Will Take Care Of It.
You can have, say, a wise and powerful king- but if his Kingdom is being threatened by the Dragon Liche Lord Evil Guy at the start of the campaign, then it's got to be the PCs who go and save it. Even if the king is a pretty badass dude himself.
Now if the campaign is about the PCs and their bumbling adventures on a trading vessel, then Someone Else can handle the Liche Lord, or maybe the Liche Lord wins, or whatever. But if it gets to the point where PCs are rejecting plot hooks based on the expectation that better heroes will go do the hero-ing for them, then there is a problem.
Again, central figures in whatever conflict the campaign is about. Vital. Even if the campaign is about "grunts in a brutal military campaign where death is omnipresent and arbitrary."
INeedNoSaltwith blood on my teethRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
You can't become the NPCs I hate so much because I hate them because they're the NPCs. I hate them because they're good guy NPCs. I hate them because if I have to interact them, it's me supporting them and not them supporting me. These are characters that are so powerful that, unless you ignore them outright, they mandate stealing the spotlight. And that's lame. The spotlight belongs to the player characters.
From a world building perspective however it helps to have a lot of "room" for the PCs to get involved, rather than the expectation that Someone Else Will Take Care Of It.
You can have, say, a wise and powerful king- but if his Kingdom is being threatened by the Dragon Liche Lord Evil Guy at the start of the campaign, then it's got to be the PCs who go and save it. Even if the king is a pretty badass dude himself.
Now if the campaign is about the PCs and their bumbling adventures on a trading vessel, then Someone Else can handle the Liche Lord, or maybe the Liche Lord wins, or whatever. But if it gets to the point where PCs are rejecting plot hooks based on the expectation that better heroes will go do the hero-ing for them, then there is a problem.
Again, central figures in whatever conflict the campaign is about. Vital. Even if the campaign is about "grunts in a brutal military campaign where death is omnipresent and arbitrary."
Like I said before, if this is happening in a campaign, your gm is at fault, or has a LOLHARDON for elminster, and again, is at fault. Even in the novels, theres no way that the cornerstone heroes can do everything or be everywhere. Some of them, like Elminster, may have their hands in various plots and subplots, but its just largely to get the attention of OTHER people so that he can sit on his ever widening ass in his tower and whore it up with the Simbul. I've been recruited by elminster to kill a dracolich and kind of fuck with Manshoon in a campaign before. Why? Not because he was too busy, not because we wouldn't have found our way their by ourselves, but because it was a good plot hook. Could Elminster have tackled it himself? Quite possible, but he didn't want to, and more importantly, our GM was BETTER THAN THAT.
Seriously, seek new games if this is an issue in yours. If its not, and you're just speculating that it is, not all groups work that way. I'm in no way a FR fanboy, but I am a big fan of well run, well played games. If you're not in one, you're cheating yourself.
Well, that second bit is the problem. There's nothing wrong with powerful NPCs operating in the setting, not in general.
But the PCs are, practically by definition, the main characters. Whatever conflict the campaign is about, the PCs are vitally important to it. They are central figures of the story you are telling, because you are telling their stories.
Now this doesn't mean there aren't other stories going on who have their own central figures, of course, it just means that the bulk of screen time, in actual play, has to go to the PCs. No one wants to watch Elminster make a sandwich, save the world, then go to bed.
No, but again, as said above, watching NPCs is a case of terrible DMing, not a badly put together world.
The idea shouldn't be that you watch Elminster save the world.
The idea is that Elminster should be a valid force in the world, as a way to take care of errant players without resorting to dropping cows from orbit, as a plot device to get the characters moving, and as an adversary (not necessarily antagonist!), ally, or interested party in your doings once you get to Epic Levels and begin to get nearer to his power level.
You shouldn't be watching Elminster do anything. You should be integrally involved. If Elminster's trying to save the world, and you're level 20 or so, unless your DM is pretending he's a cleric of Loviatar just to torment you as players, by god, you should be doing some important shit too.
Saving the world isn't always about one baddie, one evil plot. If Elminster needs to be there to face off against Demogorgon, by god, your players should be right there facing off against Tiamat, Asmodeus, and their dozen Pit Fiend minions. That suddenly changes the dynamic of the scene from "you're Elminster's bitches" to "he's going to be utterly crushed without you."
Obviously I'm not being specific here, I'm just going for dramatic effect.
But the idea should never be that these NPCs exist to make your players inconsequential. Quite the opposite.
They can and should be used to make your characters struggles even more mighty and epic. Your four characters, no matter how powerful, cannot turn the entire might of the Abyss alone. Your characters, supported by Drizzt, Elminster, Pregerine Paladinson, the good Lord Nasher, High Lady Alustriel, and every goddamn other good guy, versus every denizen of the Lower Planes that the bastards running the renewed church of Bane can summon up with Fzoul at their head, perhapos even with that little bitch Volothamp sitting in a corner writing about it and praying nobody notices he's there. Hopefully he gets eaten by a grue or something.
This isn't a scene where you're unimportant. This is a scene where you're living legends, heroes and demigods amongst men, standing against the full wrath and fury of the Lower Planes.
Scenes using these characters should not be trivial. these are not trivial people. They do not exist to boss around PCs or make them feel useless. These characters should be involved in the epic plots worthy of them, and by god, so should your players. And your players are the stars, so treat them that way. This means that when your players are involved in a major plot to save Waterdeep from an army of Drow coming out of the sewers, those NPCs find their way into supporting roles. Its your guys who go down there and put a stop to it. If it's not your guys' jobs, then why in Christ's name are you running this plot?
They're set pieces, as I said. They exist for a reason, and that reason is valid. Some people may not like them, hey, that's fine, personally I don't like a lot of things that a lot of D&D players take for granted. But they're there for a reason, and they should be used to enhance a plot, not take it over.
the core books being spread out over three months is basically how retailers want it
wotc would like to release all three books at once, but the retailers will shit a cat over that
Erm, I'm not sure about the retailer thing, but WotC's original plan was to release one book a month, just like they did for 2nd Ed, 3E, and v3.5, but they recently changed that for undisclosed reasons.
The current release schedule per the WotC site is all three books in June.
They've got their own stories. But when it's the Argo, by god, they're not there to steal the spotlight, they're there to be a useful addition to the story.
@ Incenjucar- If you're still taking sign-ups for prospective future gaming I will tentatively say I'm so effing in
I'm game for any class or role. Frankly, it's been eight years, and I think it would just be fun to give it another shot.
Commenting on the game itself, I'm a real fan of the roles system they've got going. I've always been partially to utility type characters (rogue/engineer/what-have-you) but they always get out gunned or gunned down in combat and their skills get trumped by the other characters once a certain level is reached. Making it no fun. But with the roles scheme, every class is specifically geared towards doing certain shit very well and everyone else has to keep their fingers out of it. And any new class has to fall in with that setup, so it isn't useless or overpowered.
I am a little put off by the WoW/anime vibe that seems to be popping up, but actual balance in the gameplay sounds delicious.
OhtheVogonity on
Oh freddled gruntbuggly...thy micturations are to me/ As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee
I've never understood wanting to be the only important people in the world.
It makes the world seem flat, fake, and like there's a strong masturbatory lack of verisimilitude.
I'd rather have the other power chjaracters involved. I don't want them to save the day every time something goes wrong, but I DO want to look at them as the, well, goddamit, heroes of this world. And I want my character to JOIN their ranks as a hero, not surpass every other living thing except these three dudes I'm wandering the world with.
Besides, they're pretty spread out, the really "epic" characters. Yeah, it's pretty easy to find a level 12 or 13 Fighter or Wizard, but if you really look at the vast majority of character stats given (for example, Volo's Guides give a lot of random NPCs stats if they're exceptional), you tend to find that those people will not match a PC of equivalent level, because their stats are lower, their gear is more limited, and they generally (unless they're Wizards, most of whom never seem to get the 18 Intelligence that many players feel is a prerequosite to enjoying a wizard), have a limited amount of magic available to them and generally rely on small magics to get by.
The "major" characters, like Elminster, Drizzt, Manshoon, etc, are all insanely powerful, yes, but they're also the "cornerstones" of the setting. They're set pieces. They exist, in a metagame sense, because they're what everyone should strive to become. They're the results of a well-played PC, whereas the 12th level fighter inkeeper over there is the example of an NPC who got out of the adventuring business because they wanted a simpler life.
Not the only important characters in the world, but the only Heroes. The fact that you list Elminster, Drizzt, Manshoon, and then "the rest" means that there are all these doods out there that ought to have fixed the problem that I am off to fix. I mean, come on, a demon is conspiring to destroy the world, the drow are going to invade the overworld and enslave all the surfacedwellers, why wouldnt these dudes get involved?
So, whenever things happen these characters are going to be involved, and because they are the set pieces they are going to be the cornerstone of the campaign.
But i dont want a fucking NPC to be the cornerstone of the campaign, I want to be the cornerstone of the campaign!
Campaign set pieces are things like artifacts, cities, nations, and villians. It should not be easy to find a level 13th fighter or wizard or anything. These people are heroes and villians of near mythic proportions. How in the hell do you have low level encounters when fucking inn keepers are 12th level?
12th level NPCs have so much wealth they would never have to ever work a day in their life. And he is a fucking innkeeper? Yea, maybe he sold all his loot and owns a chain of inns, restaurants and a couple mansions in the hills.
I mean shit, lets take a pretty standard villian. A vampire. The basic templated Werewolf in the SRD is CR3. Do 1/10th of the inn keepers in the forgotten realms make nearly every single low level adventure an excercize in frustration as to why other, more powerful people havent taken care of this minor threat yet.
Eberron does this really well. There are only a smattering of people over level 6 in the game. The majority of those that are have half their levels in NPC classes, the other half can be called anything but heroes, and a few that might be called so are explicitly limited[Head of the Silver Flame, the old tree]
This means that when something comes up in the low levels, the guard cant deal with it because they are roughlt the same strength as I am. And then when you are like level 5 or 6 you are notable people in the world. A reputation for getting things done. And when you are level 10 you are a paragon competing with the best of the best of the world. And when you are level 15 you're elminster. And all the time, when something heroic needs to be done.
Who ya gonna call? The fucking PCs are who im gonna call.
I mean, you watch starwars, and you sit there, and you go "Oh man, wouldnt be is awesome to play second fiddle to Luke Skywalker!". That is what the forgotten realms feels like
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
the core books being spread out over three months is basically how retailers want it
wotc would like to release all three books at once, but the retailers will shit a cat over that
Erm, I'm not sure about the retailer thing, but WotC's original plan was to release one book a month, just like they did for 2nd Ed, 3E, and v3.5, but they recently changed that for undisclosed reasons.
The current release schedule per the WotC site is all three books in June.
If you have a DM that is making level 12 Innkeeprs then there is a problem.
Much of the forgotten realms is like that. The only sensible way to make high level heroes work is if they are dead, crippled by old age, or some other malady.
On the subject of high level PCs and NPC reaction, I'm planning on starting a new Darksun campaign with a few players, and its going to be pretty nasty if the players hit 20. Because thats the point where the powers that be descend upon upstart newcomers and possibly kill them outright, depending on class.
You have some really odd opinions. But I guess that's all it boils down to is what your opinion of a good game/setting is as opposed to other people's opinion. Some will agree with you, some will agree with myself and Krata, and others are in an entirely different camp.
You have some really odd opinions. But I guess that's all it boils down to is what your opinion of a good game/setting is as opposed to other people's opinion. Some will agree with you, some will agree with myself and Krata, and others are in an entirely different camp.
I would be very surprised if my opinions on this matter were not the mainstream.
Also, for the record, i would just like to say that it was Krata who brought up the innkeepers.
You have some really odd opinions. But I guess that's all it boils down to is what your opinion of a good game/setting is as opposed to other people's opinion. Some will agree with you, some will agree with myself and Krata, and others are in an entirely different camp.
I would be very surprised if my opinions on this matter were not the mainstream.
Also, for the record, i would just like to say that it was Krata who brought up the innkeepers.
Honestly? Unless I'm just living in a hole, I've never heard anything like the type of games you're interested in. I've played under many, many GM's, ran for a wide group of players, and even organized an in house campaign for the store I used to work at. We took a poll to see what kind of game people were looking to play, so we could sort people into like minded groups, to more easily suit their needs. About 2 people out of 40+ wanted to be the all powerful heroes that saved the world.
I'm not saying you're wrong, or it doesn't exist, this is just the first time I've encountered that particular mindset.
I know Krata brought up the innkeepers. I don't see a problem with a level 12 whatever innkeeper that has retired and has stories and adventures of his own to share. I find it harder to believe that a group of 4 heroes were the first people to ever decide to start an adventuring career, and are the only people in the entire world capable of such an act, or say, advancing past 1st level. FR provides a more believable setting for me because of that. Like I said though, it all falls to matter of opinion, and what types of games you like to play in and or run.
Honestly? Unless I'm just living in a hole, I've never heard anything like the type of games you're interested in. I've played under many, many GM's, ran for a wide group of players, and even organized an in house campaign for the store I used to work at. We took a poll to see what kind of game people were looking to play, so we could sort people into like minded groups, to more easily suit their needs. About 2 people out of 40+ wanted to be the all powerful heroes that saved the world.
I'm not saying you're wrong, or it doesn't exist, this is just the first time I've encountered that particular mindset.
I know Krata brought up the innkeepers. I don't see a problem with a level 12 whatever innkeeper that has retired and has stories and adventures of his own to share. I find it harder to believe that a group of 4 heroes were the first people to ever decide to start an adventuring career, and are the only people in the entire world capable of such an act, or say, advancing past 1st level. FR provides a more believable setting for me because of that. Like I said though, it all falls to matter of opinion, and what types of games you like to play in and or run.
Not sure I'm following the discussion but the "Where do all the adventurers go?" is pretty dependent upon how common you think adventurers are and the mortality rate of the profession.
No, its really just a disagreement of established heroic npc's vs. the players being the only heroic characters in the entire game world. It really deviated from "why people think FR sucks" and more importantly, we're hogging page space that could be used for actual 4ed discussion. So, my bad on that front.
I find it's not so much how powerful the NPC's are as how much they overshadow everyone else that's the problem. FR is the worst for that because their uber powered Gary Stu NPC is everywhere and does everything.
Granted I've mostly run superhero games, but players seem to be okay with other folks as powerful, even more powerful than them. It's when those other folks start showing up and upstaging them that the problems start.
Actually, having one particular group that tries and sometimes succeeds in upstaging the players can be a lot of fun. Rivals can fuel players like nothing else, sometimes.
But yeah, having some Deus Ex Machina dude showing up all the time and doing the player's job for them would suck.
Oh man, one time the DM had our rivals sneak in during the night and steal all our gear and sold it to some black market cartel (my group was practically famous for having terrible spot and listen scores, except for my character, and I botched my rolls that night) so they could get a head start on us on some mission. Our party was filled with such righteous fury. Good times.
Which again, is not a setting problem, its a GM problem.
It's a setting problem when you can't travel a mile in any direction without hitting an Epic Level NPC. If you detail a world so much and fill it with high powered folks at every corner you can easily run in to a problem with your players having nowhere to go without being knee deep in someones back yard, and then you have to explain why the 5 guys who live here who could take care of the problem with a snap of their fingers haven't.
Which again, is not a setting problem, its a GM problem.
It's a setting problem when you can't travel a mile in any direction without hitting an Epic Level NPC. If you detail a world so much and fill it with high powered folks at every corner you can easily run in to a problem with your players having nowhere to go without being knee deep in someones back yard, and then you have to explain why the 5 guys who live here who could take care of the problem with a snap of their fingers haven't.
Because they are off romping on a different elemental plane dealing with shit that is actually worth their time?
Just an idea.
Which again, is not a setting problem, its a GM problem.
It's a setting problem when you can't travel a mile in any direction without hitting an Epic Level NPC. If you detail a world so much and fill it with high powered folks at every corner you can easily run in to a problem with your players having nowhere to go without being knee deep in someones back yard, and then you have to explain why the 5 guys who live here who could take care of the problem with a snap of their fingers haven't.
Because they are off romping on a different elemental plane dealing with shit that is actually worth their time?
Just an idea.
And that's a case of a GM making it work.
But if you have to do that for every single adventure, if you have to always explain why the folks who could take care of this from their chair at the pub haven't, then it gets real old.
In other words, a good GM can work with a mediocre setting, but that doesn't stop it from being a mediocre setting. Places like FR work for novels, not so well for gaming.
Which again, is not a setting problem, its a GM problem.
It's a setting problem when you can't travel a mile in any direction without hitting an Epic Level NPC. If you detail a world so much and fill it with high powered folks at every corner you can easily run in to a problem with your players having nowhere to go without being knee deep in someones back yard, and then you have to explain why the 5 guys who live here who could take care of the problem with a snap of their fingers haven't.
That's really a gross exaggeration. Yes, FR has more epic level NPC's than some other settings. Can you go an entire campaign without seeing one? Absolutely. Because of the reasons you mentioned, a highly detailed world, there is so much to do and so many locations with rich story and ideas for you to run a game in. Hell, I've played an entire campaign without leaving Cormyr, because its just THAT BIG, and more importantly that detailed. Is there still room for a good GM to come in and write fantastic material? Again, absolutely. We played till about level 15 before people just had too many real world issues and the we brought the story to a close. We never encountered an epic level npc, never had powerful npc's come save us or showboat. We SAW the Regent from a distance, never even looked upon the actual Queen, and had a few choice run-ins with the Purple Dragon Knights and the War Wizards, and I believe the game was so much better because there was so much fantastic material to go off of already.
Having plentiful material to build a good campaign off of is never a bad thing, and if you don't like the flavor, or you would rather play in another world setting, thats fine. Hell, I love Eberonn, I just happen to like FR better. Saying a fleshed out game world is bad, or bad design though, well that's just wrong. Not my opinion, that's just wrong. I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers either, so don't get the wrong impression.
All I keep hearing is "My DM sucks, and continually forces into situations where his npc's can rescue us" or "My DM writes incredibly terrible story, and doesn't fully grasp how to utilize the game tools in front of him".
I've played in plenty of campaigns where we were constantly rescued by high level npc's, or made to look bad because they stole the show. And every single time it was because the GM had a severe ego issue and was using the campaign to run his own personal power trip. Every. Single. Time.
Shit, MAY was far enough away. On the one hand, having to wait 2 months after that to get the remaining books to run a proper game seemed like no fun, but at least we got the PHB in May. On the other hand, having to wait a few weeks more for any books and getting all 3 at once doesn't seem like too too bad of a trade off. As it stands, my girlfriend wants me to teach her how to play NOW, and I want to wait till the new books come out.
hey pony or anyone else who has seen the races and classes book:
is the art new and cool-lookin?
or is it recycled and/or crappy?
Everything not done by the guy responsible for the halfling art is awesome, although some would complain about the armor not being realistic. The female dragonborn is the exception, it's terrible.
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What he's saying is it's masturbatory to want to be THE ONLY or THE MOST IMPORTANT hero in the entire game world. And it is. It's fine being the hero of your game, but if you're not happy unless your character is the end all be all cornerstone of the entire game world, guess what, you're the same npc's that you hate so much. If thats how you play, thats fine, but I'm personally out to play a GOOD STORY. If I'm not the cornerstone of the whole goddamn world, thats fine, as long as I'm having fun. My ego doesn't demand that everyone suck my dick because I'm a player character. And really, a lot of the FR hate I've seen over the years boils down to just that, ego.
You can have, say, a wise and powerful king- but if his Kingdom is being threatened by the Dragon Liche Lord Evil Guy at the start of the campaign, then it's got to be the PCs who go and save it. Even if the king is a pretty badass dude himself.
Now if the campaign is about the PCs and their bumbling adventures on a trading vessel, then Someone Else can handle the Liche Lord, or maybe the Liche Lord wins, or whatever. But if it gets to the point where PCs are rejecting plot hooks based on the expectation that better heroes will go do the hero-ing for them, then there is a problem.
Again, central figures in whatever conflict the campaign is about. Vital. Even if the campaign is about "grunts in a brutal military campaign where death is omnipresent and arbitrary."
I do.
http://lexiconmegatherium.tumblr.com/
So, uh, Cheers to 4e Forgotten Realms!
Like I said before, if this is happening in a campaign, your gm is at fault, or has a LOLHARDON for elminster, and again, is at fault. Even in the novels, theres no way that the cornerstone heroes can do everything or be everywhere. Some of them, like Elminster, may have their hands in various plots and subplots, but its just largely to get the attention of OTHER people so that he can sit on his ever widening ass in his tower and whore it up with the Simbul. I've been recruited by elminster to kill a dracolich and kind of fuck with Manshoon in a campaign before. Why? Not because he was too busy, not because we wouldn't have found our way their by ourselves, but because it was a good plot hook. Could Elminster have tackled it himself? Quite possible, but he didn't want to, and more importantly, our GM was BETTER THAN THAT.
Seriously, seek new games if this is an issue in yours. If its not, and you're just speculating that it is, not all groups work that way. I'm in no way a FR fanboy, but I am a big fan of well run, well played games. If you're not in one, you're cheating yourself.
No, but again, as said above, watching NPCs is a case of terrible DMing, not a badly put together world.
The idea shouldn't be that you watch Elminster save the world.
The idea is that Elminster should be a valid force in the world, as a way to take care of errant players without resorting to dropping cows from orbit, as a plot device to get the characters moving, and as an adversary (not necessarily antagonist!), ally, or interested party in your doings once you get to Epic Levels and begin to get nearer to his power level.
You shouldn't be watching Elminster do anything. You should be integrally involved. If Elminster's trying to save the world, and you're level 20 or so, unless your DM is pretending he's a cleric of Loviatar just to torment you as players, by god, you should be doing some important shit too.
Saving the world isn't always about one baddie, one evil plot. If Elminster needs to be there to face off against Demogorgon, by god, your players should be right there facing off against Tiamat, Asmodeus, and their dozen Pit Fiend minions. That suddenly changes the dynamic of the scene from "you're Elminster's bitches" to "he's going to be utterly crushed without you."
Obviously I'm not being specific here, I'm just going for dramatic effect.
But the idea should never be that these NPCs exist to make your players inconsequential. Quite the opposite.
They can and should be used to make your characters struggles even more mighty and epic. Your four characters, no matter how powerful, cannot turn the entire might of the Abyss alone. Your characters, supported by Drizzt, Elminster, Pregerine Paladinson, the good Lord Nasher, High Lady Alustriel, and every goddamn other good guy, versus every denizen of the Lower Planes that the bastards running the renewed church of Bane can summon up with Fzoul at their head, perhapos even with that little bitch Volothamp sitting in a corner writing about it and praying nobody notices he's there. Hopefully he gets eaten by a grue or something.
This isn't a scene where you're unimportant. This is a scene where you're living legends, heroes and demigods amongst men, standing against the full wrath and fury of the Lower Planes.
Scenes using these characters should not be trivial. these are not trivial people. They do not exist to boss around PCs or make them feel useless. These characters should be involved in the epic plots worthy of them, and by god, so should your players. And your players are the stars, so treat them that way. This means that when your players are involved in a major plot to save Waterdeep from an army of Drow coming out of the sewers, those NPCs find their way into supporting roles. Its your guys who go down there and put a stop to it. If it's not your guys' jobs, then why in Christ's name are you running this plot?
They're set pieces, as I said. They exist for a reason, and that reason is valid. Some people may not like them, hey, that's fine, personally I don't like a lot of things that a lot of D&D players take for granted. But they're there for a reason, and they should be used to enhance a plot, not take it over.
Woah woah woah, what?
Jordan of Elienor, Human Shaman
But I'm a level seven rogue. So what the hell am I doing when you're rocking out level 13 innkeepers?
D&D games are Jason and the Argonauts.
NPCs are Heracles, Theseus, Perseus, and Orpheus.
They've got their own stories. But when it's the Argo, by god, they're not there to steal the spotlight, they're there to be a useful addition to the story.
Looking for easier marks to steal from, hopefully.
I'm game for any class or role. Frankly, it's been eight years, and I think it would just be fun to give it another shot.
Commenting on the game itself, I'm a real fan of the roles system they've got going. I've always been partially to utility type characters (rogue/engineer/what-have-you) but they always get out gunned or gunned down in combat and their skills get trumped by the other characters once a certain level is reached. Making it no fun. But with the roles scheme, every class is specifically geared towards doing certain shit very well and everyone else has to keep their fingers out of it. And any new class has to fall in with that setup, so it isn't useless or overpowered.
I am a little put off by the WoW/anime vibe that seems to be popping up, but actual balance in the gameplay sounds delicious.
Not the only important characters in the world, but the only Heroes. The fact that you list Elminster, Drizzt, Manshoon, and then "the rest" means that there are all these doods out there that ought to have fixed the problem that I am off to fix. I mean, come on, a demon is conspiring to destroy the world, the drow are going to invade the overworld and enslave all the surfacedwellers, why wouldnt these dudes get involved?
So, whenever things happen these characters are going to be involved, and because they are the set pieces they are going to be the cornerstone of the campaign.
But i dont want a fucking NPC to be the cornerstone of the campaign, I want to be the cornerstone of the campaign!
Campaign set pieces are things like artifacts, cities, nations, and villians. It should not be easy to find a level 13th fighter or wizard or anything. These people are heroes and villians of near mythic proportions. How in the hell do you have low level encounters when fucking inn keepers are 12th level?
12th level NPCs have so much wealth they would never have to ever work a day in their life. And he is a fucking innkeeper? Yea, maybe he sold all his loot and owns a chain of inns, restaurants and a couple mansions in the hills.
I mean shit, lets take a pretty standard villian. A vampire. The basic templated Werewolf in the SRD is CR3. Do 1/10th of the inn keepers in the forgotten realms make nearly every single low level adventure an excercize in frustration as to why other, more powerful people havent taken care of this minor threat yet.
Eberron does this really well. There are only a smattering of people over level 6 in the game. The majority of those that are have half their levels in NPC classes, the other half can be called anything but heroes, and a few that might be called so are explicitly limited[Head of the Silver Flame, the old tree]
This means that when something comes up in the low levels, the guard cant deal with it because they are roughlt the same strength as I am. And then when you are like level 5 or 6 you are notable people in the world. A reputation for getting things done. And when you are level 10 you are a paragon competing with the best of the best of the world. And when you are level 15 you're elminster. And all the time, when something heroic needs to be done.
Who ya gonna call? The fucking PCs are who im gonna call.
I mean, you watch starwars, and you sit there, and you go "Oh man, wouldnt be is awesome to play second fiddle to Luke Skywalker!". That is what the forgotten realms feels like
2008 product release schedule. All three books are listed for June.
Jordan of Elienor, Human Shaman
Much of the forgotten realms is like that. The only sensible way to make high level heroes work is if they are dead, crippled by old age, or some other malady.
I would be very surprised if my opinions on this matter were not the mainstream.
Also, for the record, i would just like to say that it was Krata who brought up the innkeepers.
Honestly? Unless I'm just living in a hole, I've never heard anything like the type of games you're interested in. I've played under many, many GM's, ran for a wide group of players, and even organized an in house campaign for the store I used to work at. We took a poll to see what kind of game people were looking to play, so we could sort people into like minded groups, to more easily suit their needs. About 2 people out of 40+ wanted to be the all powerful heroes that saved the world.
I'm not saying you're wrong, or it doesn't exist, this is just the first time I've encountered that particular mindset.
I know Krata brought up the innkeepers. I don't see a problem with a level 12 whatever innkeeper that has retired and has stories and adventures of his own to share. I find it harder to believe that a group of 4 heroes were the first people to ever decide to start an adventuring career, and are the only people in the entire world capable of such an act, or say, advancing past 1st level. FR provides a more believable setting for me because of that. Like I said though, it all falls to matter of opinion, and what types of games you like to play in and or run.
Granted I've mostly run superhero games, but players seem to be okay with other folks as powerful, even more powerful than them. It's when those other folks start showing up and upstaging them that the problems start.
But yeah, having some Deus Ex Machina dude showing up all the time and doing the player's job for them would suck.
Oh man, one time the DM had our rivals sneak in during the night and steal all our gear and sold it to some black market cartel (my group was practically famous for having terrible spot and listen scores, except for my character, and I botched my rolls that night) so they could get a head start on us on some mission. Our party was filled with such righteous fury. Good times.
Because they are off romping on a different elemental plane dealing with shit that is actually worth their time?
Just an idea.
But if you have to do that for every single adventure, if you have to always explain why the folks who could take care of this from their chair at the pub haven't, then it gets real old.
In other words, a good GM can work with a mediocre setting, but that doesn't stop it from being a mediocre setting. Places like FR work for novels, not so well for gaming.
It's really all about homebrew and Eberron, in my opinion.
That's really a gross exaggeration. Yes, FR has more epic level NPC's than some other settings. Can you go an entire campaign without seeing one? Absolutely. Because of the reasons you mentioned, a highly detailed world, there is so much to do and so many locations with rich story and ideas for you to run a game in. Hell, I've played an entire campaign without leaving Cormyr, because its just THAT BIG, and more importantly that detailed. Is there still room for a good GM to come in and write fantastic material? Again, absolutely. We played till about level 15 before people just had too many real world issues and the we brought the story to a close. We never encountered an epic level npc, never had powerful npc's come save us or showboat. We SAW the Regent from a distance, never even looked upon the actual Queen, and had a few choice run-ins with the Purple Dragon Knights and the War Wizards, and I believe the game was so much better because there was so much fantastic material to go off of already.
Having plentiful material to build a good campaign off of is never a bad thing, and if you don't like the flavor, or you would rather play in another world setting, thats fine. Hell, I love Eberonn, I just happen to like FR better. Saying a fleshed out game world is bad, or bad design though, well that's just wrong. Not my opinion, that's just wrong. I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers either, so don't get the wrong impression.
All I keep hearing is "My DM sucks, and continually forces into situations where his npc's can rescue us" or "My DM writes incredibly terrible story, and doesn't fully grasp how to utilize the game tools in front of him".
I've played in plenty of campaigns where we were constantly rescued by high level npc's, or made to look bad because they stole the show. And every single time it was because the GM had a severe ego issue and was using the campaign to run his own personal power trip. Every. Single. Time.
start being about 4th edition dungeons and dragons please.
love,
horseshoe
What I'm trying to say is, 4th edition is to bloody fucking far away.
Every single bit of art for the 4th edition halfling thus far has been junk. They should fire that artist, or at least not pay him for that crap.
is the art new and cool-lookin?
or is it recycled and/or crappy?
I havn't seen anything recycled and I think by and large (with the exception of the aforementioned halflings) the art is pretty excellent.
LoL: failboattootoot
Most of its pretty awesome.
Tiefling weapons look pretty retarded.
I dont really have a problem with the halfling art.
Oh, they also have a picture of a half-elf paladin, probly just someone wanting to draw a half-elf, but I dunno.
Jordan of Elienor, Human Shaman
Everything not done by the guy responsible for the halfling art is awesome, although some would complain about the armor not being realistic. The female dragonborn is the exception, it's terrible.