I wish man, all of my buds lay out 4-6 hours at a time in wow but think it is too geekish to P&P. Any tips for converting them?
First step:
Ask them why they play WoW. If they say "its fun" ask them "Why is it fun?"
Eventually you will come to the fact they either like to complete the quests, or they like to kill the monsters, or they like to have a cool character.
Then tell them that DnD has all of those things except the stories are cooler and unique, the monsters are badass and unique, and your characters are legitimatly cool and not be be out-cooled by other people with their epic mounted night elf mohawks.
Litejedi, why the hell do you care so much about the setting they are making for 4th edition? The setting is not hard-coded into the rules, so if you don't like it, don't USE it. There, problem solved, that was so hard?
The problem is, that becomes the default setting for damn near everyone, and it changes the way people percieve the game. Everyone here says "Oh well the core stuff sounds like rubbish, we'll do something else" but many people will not. Most people I would say, will not disgard these rules.
In my experience most people end up using one of the in-depth published settings (Forgotten Realms...sadly, Planescape, Eberron, etc) or homebrewing.
Remember the "default setting" is extremely bare-bones; there's really not much to it at all. Any "default setting" game will be 90% homebrewed by necessity.
You dont need the goonies to save the world when the President can get on the phone and Dial Delta Force.
As such, you end up being relegated to doing stuff that isnt really "epic"
edit: For instance in Eberron, which is a setting i love. You are the heroes. There are only a handful of characters over level 5 and only a smattering more that have PC classes.
This means that when something happens in the world. You are the ones who have to go fix it. There is no Deux Ex Machina, and there is no wondering why some Deus Ex Machina doesnt come along and save you. It makes it easier to understand why you get recruited to do any number of things. Because even at level 1, people like you are rare.
I think we actually had the same discussion at the beginning of the LAST 4ed thread, and the general consensus was that if this is even a remote issue in your games, whoever is running it is largely at fault. There are plenty of amazing stories that can take place, even yes *gasp* epic ones, without popular heroes always being there to save the day. The world is a big place. Hell, think about the Baulders gate games, neverwinter nights and icewind dale. You may interact with some of the big names, but YOU are the hero. That kind of defeats the "there are better heroes" logic.
On the same page you can have amazing games without "saving the world".
see, they're already geeks, and WoW like any other game of its kind bears a resemblance to DnD.
you only have to get them to play once
and then they will have that moment when they realize it's more awesome than an rpg videogame
wait... so i can be part rogue and part druid?
i can be whatever race/class combo i want?
i don't have to just use the same ability again and again?
yes, my friend, yes
and the server is never down
and nobody ninjas your loot
and you don't have to grind for faction
welcome to the promised land
Still gotta watch out for those goddamned gold farmers tho. :P
Also, why are people bitching that "Points of Light" isn't a fully developed campaign? When have you ever gotten a fully fleshed-out campaign in the core rulebooks? Or am I the only person that remembers the old campaign boxed sets you had to buy? Or, if you want to get smarmy, it wasn't really Greyhawk unless you bought the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, so the miniscule campaign-specific stuff in the 3E core books doesn't count.
There's the real similarity between WoW and 4E: if you give people more content for free, they bitch about it, because it's not as fleshed out as the purchased content.
/violin
delroland on
EVE: Online - the most fun you will ever have not playing a game.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Also, why are people bitching that "Points of Light" isn't a fully developed campaign? When have you ever gotten a fully fleshed-out campaign in the core rulebooks?
Many if not most other RPGs come with settings in the core book(s).
It's a feature many people enjoy. Let's them all play in the same world.
That said, I like D&D in that it encourages homebrewing... I've never even heard of a White Wolf homebrew toolkit.
You dont need the goonies to save the world when the President can get on the phone and Dial Delta Force.
As such, you end up being relegated to doing stuff that isnt really "epic"
edit: For instance in Eberron, which is a setting i love. You are the heroes. There are only a handful of characters over level 5 and only a smattering more that have PC classes.
This means that when something happens in the world. You are the ones who have to go fix it. There is no Deux Ex Machina, and there is no wondering why some Deus Ex Machina doesnt come along and save you. It makes it easier to understand why you get recruited to do any number of things. Because even at level 1, people like you are rare.
I think we actually had the same discussion at the beginning of the LAST 4ed thread, and the general consensus was that if this is even a remote issue in your games, whoever is running it is largely at fault. There are plenty of amazing stories that can take place, even yes *gasp* epic ones, without popular heroes always being there to save the day. The world is a big place. Hell, think about the Baulders gate games, neverwinter nights and icewind dale. You may interact with some of the big names, but YOU are the hero. That kind of defeats the "there are better heroes" logic.
On the same page you can have amazing games without "saving the world".
I rather like FR, but I have to agree with the WoW paladin comment last page.
That said, bring on the named-character genocide. Hell, I already killed Elminster myself.
The main thing I have with FR aside from being emotionally scarred from how horny Elminster and his "daughters" were, and often for each other, is that it feels like you're walking through Greenwood's library, rather than some newly-imagined idea.
I mean cripes, Faerun has Little Aztec America and Little Egypt and Little Asian Stereotype and Little Viking Land... bleh.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
edited January 2008
Uhh... little asian stereotype land was actually it's own seperate campaign setting in the days of 1st edition.
It was eventually tossed onto the same planet as FR.
The main thing I have with FR aside from being emotionally scarred from how horny Elminster and his "daughters" were, and often for each other, is that it feels like you're walking through Greenwood's library, rather than some newly-imagined idea.
I mean cripes, Faerun has Little Aztec America and Little Egypt and Little Asian Stereotype and Little Viking Land... bleh.
THAT I can understand. Although several other authors have done wonders to illustrate the world (Greenwood did start the Cormyr saga, but everyone else writing on it really brought it to life.) and I've drawn from many of them over the years while running in FE. I guess the thing I have trouble understanding is the people that sound like they essentially have dick envy of established NPC's. I mean, really?
The main thing I have with FR aside from being emotionally scarred from how horny Elminster and his "daughters" were, and often for each other, is that it feels like you're walking through Greenwood's library, rather than some newly-imagined idea.
I mean cripes, Faerun has Little Aztec America and Little Egypt and Little Asian Stereotype and Little Viking Land... bleh.
THAT I can understand. Although several other authors have done wonders to illustrate the world (Greenwood did start the Cormyr saga, but everyone else writing on it really brought it to life.) and I've drawn from many of them over the years while running in FE. I guess the thing I have trouble understanding is the people that sound like they essentially have dick envy of established NPC's. I mean, really?
It's like the DC universe.
Green Arrow and Aquaman seem kinda useless save through heavy use of dramatic license when you've got the likes of Superman, Captain Atom, and the Green Lantern running around.
Means DMs don't have to listen to as much rules lawyer bitching.
--
The FR NPCs issue can be summed up by one of the intro adventures in 2e for FR:
At some point, while your PCs are in the dungeon, and happen to be damaged, Elminster shows up, walking along with a little scruffy dog, shaking a wand at it and saying Heal! Heal! (it is a wand of Healing) Thus saving your wussy asses. He, of course, disappears before you can get his attention.
Bad writing. I'll continue liking FR, and just be the silent minority I guess. I'm down with that.
As far as 4ed is concerned, I would be all over playing when it rolls around, but theres already a billion people that have thrown their hat into that ring. If we have a list going, sign me up, otherwise I may just be coerced into letting people in on the game I plan on running for a couple of friends that live cross country from me. Using the new online tools of course. Of course.
Yeah, being a noob in D&D isn't that big of a deal, as long as there are one or two more experienced players around.
You could basically say what you want to do each round "I want to heal this dude" or "I want to hurt that enemy" and then the more experienced player can basically tell you good ways to go about doing what you want, thus translating your desire into game mechanics. After playing a few games you pick it up right quick.
Also, why are people bitching that "Points of Light" isn't a fully developed campaign? When have you ever gotten a fully fleshed-out campaign in the core rulebooks?
Many if not most other RPGs come with settings in the core book(s).
It's a feature many people enjoy. Let's them all play in the same world.
That said, I like D&D in that it encourages homebrewing... I've never even heard of a White Wolf homebrew toolkit.
It's called WoD 2.0, aka the nWoD, although "Homebrewing" in this case is generally in regards to anything plot/setting related and deciding whether or not you give a damn about the supplements.
I kind of wish they were Planescape tieflings, with matching DiTerlizzi art.
Man, that curvy tiefling with checkered pants in the Planescape Monster Compendium was HAWT.
DiTerlizzi makes hot womens. Planescape was chock full of 'em.
I like most of Reynold's art, but I would like to see some other artists in there now. I'm a little over Ron Spencer now, but maybe Steve Prescott?
It's too bad that DiTerlizzi is out of the gaming business. He made Planescape and Changeling: the Dreaming.
I've already got a few ideas for 4th Edition - a Spelljammer conversion, a Planescape conversion and a homebrew campaign revolving around discovering a lost continent.
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Also, why are people bitching that "Points of Light" isn't a fully developed campaign? When have you ever gotten a fully fleshed-out campaign in the core rulebooks?
Many if not most other RPGs come with settings in the core book(s).
It's a feature many people enjoy. Let's them all play in the same world.
That said, I like D&D in that it encourages homebrewing... I've never even heard of a White Wolf homebrew toolkit.
It's called WoD 2.0, aka the nWoD, although "Homebrewing" in this case is generally in regards to anything plot/setting related and deciding whether or not you give a damn about the supplements.
the nWoD takes a toolkit approach, but I wouldn't call it a homebrew approach.
Now is the best time to be a D&D noob, because you won't have to unlearn the old system.
Not to mention that there's no longer 8 years of piled up rules and corrections to deal with.
Or 700 PRC's to look through if you are making a character above 1st level, or 4 GAJILLION TRILLION DILLION spells to look through if you want to play a spellcaster. Holy hell.
We're playing an epic campaign right now, and I just made a wizard as my backup, and I spent no less than 2 weeks agonizing over spell selection.
I'm usually just asked to NOT play the wizard. I don't intentionally powergame, but back when I was learning how to play 2nd ed, I played under the most ruthless, brutal DM imaginable. It was not uncommon to have 3-4 player deaths each game. Until I learned the ropes, I had like 10 extra characters with me as backup at all times. Since then, I've just had to watch myself or I'll overpower a spellcaster without thinking about it.
I made my current character, a 12 Scout/ 8 Ranger/ 1 Divine Emmissary (we all had to take it for story reasons) / 1 wizard / 1 Abjurant Champion. Before I even took the DE level, I was already more powerful than the GM had intended, and so now combat is a chore for everyone else in the party because I made what I thought at the time was a NEAT character. The story and concept came first for a change, and then I made picked the classes. Wizard and AB just seemed to help out with things that were missing in the party, as well as make my level progression useful while not adding even more damage in the form of higher scout attack bonuses.
I'll totally jump on the wizard spot, though I was planning on doing say, cleric or something.
You dont need the goonies to save the world when the President can get on the phone and Dial Delta Force.
As such, you end up being relegated to doing stuff that isnt really "epic"
edit: For instance in Eberron, which is a setting i love. You are the heroes. There are only a handful of characters over level 5 and only a smattering more that have PC classes.
This means that when something happens in the world. You are the ones who have to go fix it. There is no Deux Ex Machina, and there is no wondering why some Deus Ex Machina doesnt come along and save you. It makes it easier to understand why you get recruited to do any number of things. Because even at level 1, people like you are rare.
I've never understood wanting to be the only important people in the world.
It makes the world seem flat, fake, and like there's a strong masturbatory lack of verisimilitude.
I'd rather have the other power chjaracters involved. I don't want them to save the day every time something goes wrong, but I DO want to look at them as the, well, goddamit, heroes of this world. And I want my character to JOIN their ranks as a hero, not surpass every other living thing except these three dudes I'm wandering the world with.
Besides, they're pretty spread out, the really "epic" characters. Yeah, it's pretty easy to find a level 12 or 13 Fighter or Wizard, but if you really look at the vast majority of character stats given (for example, Volo's Guides give a lot of random NPCs stats if they're exceptional), you tend to find that those people will not match a PC of equivalent level, because their stats are lower, their gear is more limited, and they generally (unless they're Wizards, most of whom never seem to get the 18 Intelligence that many players feel is a prerequosite to enjoying a wizard), have a limited amount of magic available to them and generally rely on small magics to get by.
The "major" characters, like Elminster, Drizzt, Manshoon, etc, are all insanely powerful, yes, but they're also the "cornerstones" of the setting. They're set pieces. They exist, in a metagame sense, because they're what everyone should strive to become. They're the results of a well-played PC, whereas the 12th level fighter inkeeper over there is the example of an NPC who got out of the adventuring business because they wanted a simpler life.
Well, that second bit is the problem. There's nothing wrong with powerful NPCs operating in the setting, not in general.
But the PCs are, practically by definition, the main characters. Whatever conflict the campaign is about, the PCs are vitally important to it. They are central figures of the story you are telling, because you are telling their stories.
Now this doesn't mean there aren't other stories going on who have their own central figures, of course, it just means that the bulk of screen time, in actual play, has to go to the PCs. No one wants to watch Elminster make a sandwich, save the world, then go to bed.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Just read the thread from page 1, and I'm pretty fucking excited. I had no idea this was even coming, so :^: . I do hope adapting monsters as PCs will be somewhat easy... I started new campaigns in 3e and 3.5e both as weird race/classes (Tiefling Druid, and Kobold Paladin, respectively), and I'd love to continue that trend.
From http://www.enworld.org/
In this post and this thread, Clark Peterson discusses the plans Necromancer Games has for 4E.
<snip>
2. Advanced Player's Guide: Designed in part by industry insider Ari Marmell, if they left classes and races out, we put them back in (Of course, we can't say if bards or druids or barbarians or gnomes or half-orc are or arent in 4th edition, but we know some stuff has been cut, and whatever is missing we will create for you with work by respected designer Ari Marmell.)
Reading what we know about the classes so far, not sure what to tell from this... are they adding new progression for fighters to branch into barbarians? I mean, I'm interested... it's just so hard to not know.
Edit: I was a little disappointed to read this regarding Half-Orcs
Half-orcs are a bit tricky, because they imply a very ugly backstory that we frankly don't want to dwell on very much. I think it's possible to posit a better backstory, like "long ago a god of evil mixed the races of orcs and humans, and to this day atavistic throwbacks are born to each from time to time." We'll see where we get to on that score when we get serious about updating the half-orc. So far we've just had other fish to fry first.
Really? We're pussy-footing around it now?
Also, fuck you guys for making me now stay up all night reading about this..
Well said Krata. Thats what I've been trying to get out, but haven't really had the wordiness to do today. I agree 100%.
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INeedNoSaltwith blood on my teethRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Saying that it's 'masturbatory' to want to play the hero in an RPG is pretty stupid. The entire exercise is pretty masturbatory. I don't want my character to 'strive to be like Drizzt' -- I want Drizzt to strive to be more like my character.
Eberron managed to make an awesome setting without making other adventurers 'cornerstones' of the setting. If I'm playing DND to be the hero, why is it masturbatory (lolz) for me to want to be actual hero and not the supporting role?
Just read the thread from page 1, and I'm pretty fucking excited. I had no idea this was even coming, so :^: . I do hope adapting monsters as PCs will be somewhat easy... I started new campaigns in 3e and 3.5e both as weird race/classes (Tiefling Druid, and Kobold Paladin, respectively), and I'd love to continue that trend.
From http://www.enworld.org/
Reading what we know about the classes so far, not sure what to tell from this... are they adding new progression for fighters to branch into barbarians? I mean, I'm interested... it's just so hard to not know.
I'd be a little surprised if we didn't see Barbarians. They seem like a good fit for the "Heavy Striker" role since the fighter is a Defender....
Posts
But... but... I play wow every now and again too
But at least now you know how to fix the problem.
Go get your bat.
First step:
Ask them why they play WoW. If they say "its fun" ask them "Why is it fun?"
Eventually you will come to the fact they either like to complete the quests, or they like to kill the monsters, or they like to have a cool character.
Then tell them that DnD has all of those things except the stories are cooler and unique, the monsters are badass and unique, and your characters are legitimatly cool and not be be out-cooled by other people with their epic mounted night elf mohawks.
Hey... I'm on to you... you just want me to blow up my PC so I will stop posting!
you only have to get them to play once
and then they will have that moment when they realize it's more awesome than an rpg videogame
wait... so i can be part rogue and part druid?
i can be whatever race/class combo i want?
i don't have to just use the same ability again and again?
yes, my friend, yes
and the server is never down
and nobody ninjas your loot
and you don't have to grind for faction
welcome to the promised land
In my experience most people end up using one of the in-depth published settings (Forgotten Realms...sadly, Planescape, Eberron, etc) or homebrewing.
Remember the "default setting" is extremely bare-bones; there's really not much to it at all. Any "default setting" game will be 90% homebrewed by necessity.
I think we actually had the same discussion at the beginning of the LAST 4ed thread, and the general consensus was that if this is even a remote issue in your games, whoever is running it is largely at fault. There are plenty of amazing stories that can take place, even yes *gasp* epic ones, without popular heroes always being there to save the day. The world is a big place. Hell, think about the Baulders gate games, neverwinter nights and icewind dale. You may interact with some of the big names, but YOU are the hero. That kind of defeats the "there are better heroes" logic.
On the same page you can have amazing games without "saving the world".
Still gotta watch out for those goddamned gold farmers tho. :P
Also, why are people bitching that "Points of Light" isn't a fully developed campaign? When have you ever gotten a fully fleshed-out campaign in the core rulebooks? Or am I the only person that remembers the old campaign boxed sets you had to buy? Or, if you want to get smarmy, it wasn't really Greyhawk unless you bought the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, so the miniscule campaign-specific stuff in the 3E core books doesn't count.
There's the real similarity between WoW and 4E: if you give people more content for free, they bitch about it, because it's not as fleshed out as the purchased content.
/violin
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
Many if not most other RPGs come with settings in the core book(s).
It's a feature many people enjoy. Let's them all play in the same world.
That said, I like D&D in that it encourages homebrewing... I've never even heard of a White Wolf homebrew toolkit.
In other words:
"Forgotten Realms Adventures" and "Eberron Adventures"
or
"Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting" and "Eberron Campaign Setting"
I like the former. :^:
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
That said, bring on the named-character genocide. Hell, I already killed Elminster myself.
I mean cripes, Faerun has Little Aztec America and Little Egypt and Little Asian Stereotype and Little Viking Land... bleh.
It was eventually tossed onto the same planet as FR.
THAT I can understand. Although several other authors have done wonders to illustrate the world (Greenwood did start the Cormyr saga, but everyone else writing on it really brought it to life.) and I've drawn from many of them over the years while running in FE. I guess the thing I have trouble understanding is the people that sound like they essentially have dick envy of established NPC's. I mean, really?
I want to try one but I don't know anyone that plays.
Green Arrow and Aquaman seem kinda useless save through heavy use of dramatic license when you've got the likes of Superman, Captain Atom, and the Green Lantern running around.
Means DMs don't have to listen to as much rules lawyer bitching.
--
The FR NPCs issue can be summed up by one of the intro adventures in 2e for FR:
At some point, while your PCs are in the dungeon, and happen to be damaged, Elminster shows up, walking along with a little scruffy dog, shaking a wand at it and saying Heal! Heal! (it is a wand of Healing) Thus saving your wussy asses. He, of course, disappears before you can get his attention.
Does not make you feel awesome.
As far as 4ed is concerned, I would be all over playing when it rolls around, but theres already a billion people that have thrown their hat into that ring. If we have a list going, sign me up, otherwise I may just be coerced into letting people in on the game I plan on running for a couple of friends that live cross country from me. Using the new online tools of course. Of course.
You could basically say what you want to do each round "I want to heal this dude" or "I want to hurt that enemy" and then the more experienced player can basically tell you good ways to go about doing what you want, thus translating your desire into game mechanics. After playing a few games you pick it up right quick.
--
Er, did you want me to add you to the player list or as a DM or just wait until later...?
It's called WoD 2.0, aka the nWoD, although "Homebrewing" in this case is generally in regards to anything plot/setting related and deciding whether or not you give a damn about the supplements.
Now is the best time to be a D&D noob, because you won't have to unlearn the old system.
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
You can honestly put me on both lists. I work from home, so I really doubt my schedule is going to change.
DiTerlizzi makes hot womens. Planescape was chock full of 'em.
I like most of Reynold's art, but I would like to see some other artists in there now. I'm a little over Ron Spencer now, but maybe Steve Prescott?
It's too bad that DiTerlizzi is out of the gaming business. He made Planescape and Changeling: the Dreaming.
I've already got a few ideas for 4th Edition - a Spelljammer conversion, a Planescape conversion and a homebrew campaign revolving around discovering a lost continent.
the nWoD takes a toolkit approach, but I wouldn't call it a homebrew approach.
Not to mention that there's no longer 8 years of piled up rules and corrections to deal with.
Or 700 PRC's to look through if you are making a character above 1st level, or 4 GAJILLION TRILLION DILLION spells to look through if you want to play a spellcaster. Holy hell.
We're playing an epic campaign right now, and I just made a wizard as my backup, and I spent no less than 2 weeks agonizing over spell selection.
I expect this is why so few people have expressed interest in playing the wizard so far. That or the stigma against required roles.
Wizard is the new cleric. :P
"Go up, thou bald head." -2 Kings 2:23
I made my current character, a 12 Scout/ 8 Ranger/ 1 Divine Emmissary (we all had to take it for story reasons) / 1 wizard / 1 Abjurant Champion. Before I even took the DE level, I was already more powerful than the GM had intended, and so now combat is a chore for everyone else in the party because I made what I thought at the time was a NEAT character. The story and concept came first for a change, and then I made picked the classes. Wizard and AB just seemed to help out with things that were missing in the party, as well as make my level progression useful while not adding even more damage in the form of higher scout attack bonuses.
I'll totally jump on the wizard spot, though I was planning on doing say, cleric or something.
I've never understood wanting to be the only important people in the world.
It makes the world seem flat, fake, and like there's a strong masturbatory lack of verisimilitude.
I'd rather have the other power chjaracters involved. I don't want them to save the day every time something goes wrong, but I DO want to look at them as the, well, goddamit, heroes of this world. And I want my character to JOIN their ranks as a hero, not surpass every other living thing except these three dudes I'm wandering the world with.
Besides, they're pretty spread out, the really "epic" characters. Yeah, it's pretty easy to find a level 12 or 13 Fighter or Wizard, but if you really look at the vast majority of character stats given (for example, Volo's Guides give a lot of random NPCs stats if they're exceptional), you tend to find that those people will not match a PC of equivalent level, because their stats are lower, their gear is more limited, and they generally (unless they're Wizards, most of whom never seem to get the 18 Intelligence that many players feel is a prerequosite to enjoying a wizard), have a limited amount of magic available to them and generally rely on small magics to get by.
The "major" characters, like Elminster, Drizzt, Manshoon, etc, are all insanely powerful, yes, but they're also the "cornerstones" of the setting. They're set pieces. They exist, in a metagame sense, because they're what everyone should strive to become. They're the results of a well-played PC, whereas the 12th level fighter inkeeper over there is the example of an NPC who got out of the adventuring business because they wanted a simpler life.
But the PCs are, practically by definition, the main characters. Whatever conflict the campaign is about, the PCs are vitally important to it. They are central figures of the story you are telling, because you are telling their stories.
Now this doesn't mean there aren't other stories going on who have their own central figures, of course, it just means that the bulk of screen time, in actual play, has to go to the PCs. No one wants to watch Elminster make a sandwich, save the world, then go to bed.
From http://www.enworld.org/
Reading what we know about the classes so far, not sure what to tell from this... are they adding new progression for fighters to branch into barbarians? I mean, I'm interested... it's just so hard to not know.
Edit: I was a little disappointed to read this regarding Half-Orcs
Really? We're pussy-footing around it now?
Also, fuck you guys for making me now stay up all night reading about this..
Eberron managed to make an awesome setting without making other adventurers 'cornerstones' of the setting. If I'm playing DND to be the hero, why is it masturbatory (lolz) for me to want to be actual hero and not the supporting role?