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Obama and the Mormons

2

Posts

  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    cherv1 wrote: »
    So does their genealogy on his African side go all the way to Cain, or do their records not stretch back that far?
    lulz! That would have been rich.

  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    cherv1 wrote: »
    So does their genealogy on his African side go all the way to Cain, or do their records not stretch back that far?

    Okay, you win the thread.

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  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User
    edited July 2009
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    It's like the world's biggest LARP, and everybody is a "Lawful-Neutral Human Breeder."

    I'm thinking is the Mark of Cain sort of like a Tiefling?

    the GOP shouldn't give a rats ass about them since they won't vote for them. If someone won't vote for you they might as well not exist.
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Zimmydoom wrote: »
    kildy wrote: »
    I can't see any advantage gained by being a douchebag to the mormons at this point in time.

    Personal satisfaction.

    I know this be new for some Americans but I think you finally have a president above such things....

    steam_sig.png
    gamertag: Canadianllama
  • tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    huh...curse of cain. I'm a black guy and the LDS people have been on my doorstep many of a time(lots of repeats). You would think that it would have come up.

    I guess it would be the equivalent of a used car salesmen telling me about the fucked up muffler on the vehicle I'm about to purchase.

  • PhonehandPhonehand Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    tallgeeze wrote: »
    huh...curse of cain. I'm a black guy and the LDS people have been on my doorstep many of a time(lots of repeats). You would think that it would have come up.

    I guess it would be the equivalent of a used car salesmen telling me about the fucked up muffler on the vehicle I'm about to purchase.

    or perhaps the church was run by old racist white men 30 years ago and the church has progressed a little beyond that

    pmdunk.jpg
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Phonehand wrote: »
    or perhaps the church was run by old racist white men 30 years ago and the church has progressed a little beyond that
    You might have a point ... if the beliefs of those old racist white men weren't permanently enshrined in the church's dogma.

  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I feel compelled to clarify a handful of misconception ITT. Please consult the Wiki articles on "blacks and mormonism" and "blacks and the LDS church" for greater detail. None of this is supposed to be a defense of the LDS institutions. There's no denying that they were decidedly late to the party, not eliminating all policy distinctions until 1978!

    1. Mark of Cain is not the same as Curse of Cain.
    2. Joseph Smith (founder, Mormonism) himself ordained black ministers.
    3. In the LDS church (the president of which Obama met), there's no policy or doctrinal distinction between whites and blacks since the "divine revelation" of 1978. From their point of view, God himself prohibits racism in the church.
    4. Among the non-mainstream ("fundamentalist") Mormon churches, there are those that are openly racist. This is not unique to Mormonism.

    Two personal observations:
    1. I do think the LDS church should officially apologize for its racist past. I expect that eventually they will.
    2. Refusing to talk to people is no way to overcome bigotry.

    Alright, I'll slip into my asbestos suit now.

  • RecklessReckless Registered User
    edited July 2009
    Archgarth wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Arch, I'm not seeing the percentage in Obama raising these issues during a brief visit with Mormon leadership, especially considering it came on the heels of an outstanding speech given at the 100th anniversary of the NAACP. Nobody would gain anything. Mormons aren't constructing social policy in the greater United States.

    The millions of homosexuals who had their rights stripped in California would disagree with you.

    I bow to your point. I've been so wrapped up in my own state's east-coast battle for gay rights, I completely forgot the influence that the Utah-based LDS must've had over the vote on Prop 8 given the geographical proximity.

    Edit: Also remember that, historically speaking, it takes Churches a fairly long time to apologize for doing stupid things. See Galileo.

    Arch wrote: »
    That much sex will make you stay with ANY kind of crazy bitch.
  • firewaterwordfirewaterword Tighter than R. Kelly in his teens. Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Curse of Cain? Is that a sequel to Defiance? I kid, I kid.

    But having just finished reading Under the Banner of Heaven, I've become pretty fascinated with Mormons/LDS/FLDS. I wonder if they presented Mr. Obama with magic underwear...

    They're gonna bury you, they're gonna finish. They're gonna stand 'em up six by six by six.
  • YarYar Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    tallgeeze wrote: »
    huh...curse of cain. I'm a black guy and the LDS people have been on my doorstep many of a time(lots of repeats). You would think that it would have come up.

    I guess it would be the equivalent of a used car salesmen telling me about the fucked up muffler on the vehicle I'm about to purchase.
    They got word that heaven is running out of servants.

  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    Phonehand wrote: »
    or perhaps the church was run by old racist white men 30 years ago and the church has progressed a little beyond that
    You might have a point ... if the beliefs of those old racist white men weren't permanently enshrined in the church's dogma.
    ...until it attracts negative attention and becomes politically inxpedient, at which point it will be nullified by a new 'divine revelation'. I'd think you would be more forgiving of the concept of ongoing revelation, given your usual tirades against what you see as the intellectual dishonesty of supposedly bilbically founded Christian groups adapting their world view to reflect more modern systems of morality.

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  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hachface wrote: »
    Archgarth wrote: »
    Due to several excellent points in this thread, I retract my opinion that he should not have met with them.

    However, would a "greater good" have been served by pointing out current bigotry? Making the church's struggles (or reluctance) to deal with racism a more national issue?

    Depending on exactly what Obama said, it would land somewhere between awkward embarrassment and unmitigated disaster.

    It is not for the president to chastise any church for its beliefs, past or present.

    It's a trap anyways.

    It wouldn't be 2 seconds before Obama finished his last sentence chastising the Mormons that every two-bit pundit on TV would be screaming about Jeremiah Wright and "Obama was on a magazine cover with Farakkhan blah blah blah" all over again.

  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    On a related note the mormon lineage recording thing is kinda creepy

    Mostly because they retroactively baptize people.

    11793-1.png
    Spoiler:
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Is there anything like the Blacks-from-Cain thing in other religions? The only thing I can think of is that Medieval Jews occasionally used the term "Edomites" to refer to Romans and, by extension, Christians, with a negative connotation (as opposed to "Children of Esau," which tended to be used in a more neutral manner).

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • firewaterwordfirewaterword Tighter than R. Kelly in his teens. Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Is there anything like the Blacks-from-Cain thing in other religions? The only thing I can think of is that Medieval Jews occasionally used the term "Edomites" to refer to Romans and, by extension, Christians, with a negative connotation (as opposed to "Children of Esau," which tended to be used in a more neutral manner).

    I guess one could out the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    ...the curse which Noah pronounced upon Canaan was the origin of the black race. Certain it is that when Noah said, "Cursed be Canaan, a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren," he pictured the future of the Colored race. They have been and are a race of servants, but now in the dawn of the twentieth century, we are all coming to see this matter of service in its true light and to find that the only real joy in life is in serving others; not bossing them. There is no servant in the world as good as a good Colored servant, and the joy that he gets from rendering faithful service is one of the purest joys there is in the world
    Mind you, I'm not arguing either side here. In fact, I think the argument against them being a bunch of racists is stronger.

    I don't really care much either way though - they don't celebrate birthdays, and that's just wrong.

    They're gonna bury you, they're gonna finish. They're gonna stand 'em up six by six by six.
  • Element BrianElement Brian Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    To start off, I'm a returned missonary, 7th generation member of the church. (The church was Restored in 1830, my great-great-great-great-grandfather joined the church in 1833)

    I voted for Obama, and I think Glenn Beck (politically) is one of the biggest morons on tv.

    Ok, I'm not going to deny that many members in the past were probably racist. All of us probably have ancestors who had some belief that we arn't too proud of, just like some of my ancestors were probably racists, because, well, they lived a hundred years ago and people were stupid back then; I wouldn't doubt that many of you had racists ancestors back then too. Theres nothing we can do about it, thats the way things were.

    As for the limitation of the priesthood, whats important to understand is that, 1st, this didn't limit membership in the church, only priesthood responsibilities and temple participation. Other than that, they were still baptized into the church, recieved the holy ghost, just like everyone else.

    2. As for the reason, its...not very clear. In fact, there was never any decree by God through the Prophet that they couldn't recieve the priesthood. (Which is why Joseph Smith and others earlier had no problem ordaining them to the priesthood). I think part of the reason was simply, a lot of people were racists and God waited untill a time when the Church was strong enough to set them straight. (or maybe I'm wrong, I dunno, I guess we'll just find out after the millenium and all the other mysteries are revealed)

    Anyway, here are some articles about the subject.

    The first is by a black member of the church who used to be extremely "anti" and converted to the church (imagine someone like Quingu becoming Mormon and you have an idea of what this guy was kinda like)

    He isn't an authority in the church, just a member talking about his feelings about it. He especially acknowledes how there were racists comments made before and we shouldn't ignore that.

    http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2002_Dispelling_the_Black_Myth.html

    Here is a sort of timeline of different instances of blacks in the church.

    http://www.blacklds.org/history

    Theres also http://www.fairlds.org/

    Which is an apologetics page attempting to answer some of the criticism of the church (most of the stuff the op talked about).

    Yea I know how you feel, blah blah blah mormon apologetics blah blah. But either you can just sit here and fume over something that happened years ago which no ones really proud of, or you can maybe try to see some of our theories as to why it might have been that way or what it really meant...

    Ok I'm done, you can go back to hating us again.

    I like the idea of the carbonation in your pop being too much for your mormon body

    too worldly nooooo
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    In fact, there was never any decree by God through the Prophet that they couldn't recieve the priesthood.
    The last nine words of this statement are unnecessary.
    I think part of the reason was simply, a lot of people were racists and God waited untill a time when the Church was strong enough to set them straight.
    God does work in conspicuously convenient ways. :)

  • cherv1cherv1 Registered User
    edited July 2009
    Element Brian you seem to have a severe victim complex.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    (or maybe I'm wrong, I dunno, I guess we'll just find out after the millenium and all the other mysteries are revealed)
    Poppycock. It's only what, 100? 200? years before the singularity and we all become beings of pure thought?

    steam_sig.png
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    I think part of the reason was simply, a lot of people were racists and God waited untill a time when the Church was strong enough to set them straight.
    God does work in conspicuously convenient ways. :)

    God is a lazy son of a bitch.

  • Element BrianElement Brian Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    cherv1 wrote: »
    Element Brian you seem to have a severe victim complex.

    Eh, I would hope not. Actually i'm not sure I said anything that would really give off that assumption...

    I like the idea of the carbonation in your pop being too much for your mormon body

    too worldly nooooo
  • cherv1cherv1 Registered User
    edited July 2009
    cherv1 wrote: »
    Element Brian you seem to have a severe victim complex.

    Eh, I would hope not. Actually i'm not sure I said anything that would really give off that assumption...

    "Ok I'm done, you can go back to hating us again."? What about how you constantly refer to anyone who criticises Mormonism as an "anti"? It's like Sarah Palin calling people who disagree with her "haters" or whatever it is. It's ridiculous.

  • Element BrianElement Brian Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    cherv1 wrote: »
    cherv1 wrote: »
    Element Brian you seem to have a severe victim complex.

    Eh, I would hope not. Actually I'm not sure I said anything that would really give off that assumption...

    "Ok I'm done, you can go back to hating us again."? What about how you constantly refer to anyone who criticizes Mormonism as an "anti"? It's like Sarah Palin calling people who disagree with her "haters" or whatever it is. It's ridiculous.

    1. Anti is how THEY refer to themselves. These are people who make it their past time to try and scare people away from the church. I'm not even complaining about them, I was just giving you information on the guy who wrote the article and how he used to be of that ilk.

    2. Don't for the love of all that is holy ever compare me to Sarah Palin. I might have to go shower now.


    3. Theres been people in this forum sanctioning the killing of Mormons before. Saying that these threads are usually a hate fest is less than an exaggeration.

    Acknowledging how people feel about us, or treat us, is far less than complaining about it or playing the victim, (which I wasn't doing).

    But seriously, Sarah Palin? That hurts...

    I like the idea of the carbonation in your pop being too much for your mormon body

    too worldly nooooo
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    To start off, I'm a returned missonary, 7th generation member of the church. (The church was Restored in 1830, my great-great-great-great-grandfather joined the church in 1833).

    Do you think the Garden of Even was in Missouri?

    Seriously J not only are you a monumentally umpleasant person when you start uttering the nonsense that passes for philosophy in your mind (shame on whatever institution you graduated in, and shame on your tutors for creating such a monster), but your sense of humor, such as it is, is awful.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    I think part of the reason was simply, a lot of people were racists and God waited untill a time when the Church was strong enough to set them straight.
    God does work in conspicuously convenient ways. :)

    Yeah, crazy fucking Mormons. Haven't you been paying attention to Catholics and such?

    The proper way to do it is "Oh, we misintepreted God's words. He actually meant 'Blacks are cool' and we just fucked up the translation. Our bad".

    Jesus, do we have to teach you people EVERYTHING.

  • aspenmgyaspenmgy Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Utah Lighthouse, lulz

    RE- baptisms for the dead. I guess it's better to not give every person the opportunity to accept or reject the ordinance. Let's just send them straight to hell instead. I guess you just can't win.

    damned if you do, damned if you don't :winky:

  • PhonehandPhonehand Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    _J_ wrote: »
    To start off, I'm a returned missonary, 7th generation member of the church. (The church was Restored in 1830, my great-great-great-great-grandfather joined the church in 1833).

    Do you think the Garden of Even was in Missouri?

    that's one of the ones the crazies believe

    pmdunk.jpg
  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Phonehand wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    To start off, I'm a returned missonary, 7th generation member of the church. (The church was Restored in 1830, my great-great-great-great-grandfather joined the church in 1833).

    Do you think the Garden of Even was in Missouri?

    that's one of the ones the crazies believe

    It would be odd to believe in the Garden of Even.

    The libertarian response to anything is, "Sure, that works fine in practice, but it doesn't fly in theory."
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    _J_ wrote: »
    To start off, I'm a returned missonary, 7th generation member of the church. (The church was Restored in 1830, my great-great-great-great-grandfather joined the church in 1833).

    Do you think the Garden of Even was in Missouri?

    Is this supposed to be more, less, or the same ammount of crazy as believing the Garden of Eden was somewhere else?

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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    To start off, I'm a returned missonary, 7th generation member of the church. (The church was Restored in 1830, my great-great-great-great-grandfather joined the church in 1833).

    Do you think the Garden of Even was in Missouri?

    Is this supposed to be more, less, or the same ammount of crazy as believing the Garden of Eden was somewhere else?

    It is supposed to assess the degree to which the individual holds Joseph Smith to be significant.

    Seriously J not only are you a monumentally umpleasant person when you start uttering the nonsense that passes for philosophy in your mind (shame on whatever institution you graduated in, and shame on your tutors for creating such a monster), but your sense of humor, such as it is, is awful.
  • Element BrianElement Brian Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    I like the idea of the carbonation in your pop being too much for your mormon body

    too worldly nooooo
  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    Do...do you have any proof of your position to begin with? Because I can assert that the Garden of Eden was on Jupiter, and you'd most likely have a hard time offering conclusive evidence that it wasn't. Conclusively proving a negative tends to be a bit tricky, you see. That's why most people don't generally go around stating wacky shit and then daring people to disprove it.

    Well, except the damn Flying Spaghetting Monster cultists. But screw them.

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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    It is impossible to prove a universal negative given how proof functions.

    Do you believe that Native Americans were descendants of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

    Seriously J not only are you a monumentally umpleasant person when you start uttering the nonsense that passes for philosophy in your mind (shame on whatever institution you graduated in, and shame on your tutors for creating such a monster), but your sense of humor, such as it is, is awful.
  • Element BrianElement Brian Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    Do...do you have any proof of your position to begin with? Because I can assert that the Garden of Eden was on Jupiter, and you'd most likely have a hard time offering conclusive evidence that it wasn't.

    Well, my reasoning is on my belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Its not me pulling a location out of no where, or randomly asserting that it is in X location.

    I like the idea of the carbonation in your pop being too much for your mormon body

    too worldly nooooo
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    Do...do you have any proof of your position to begin with? Because I can assert that the Garden of Eden was on Jupiter, and you'd most likely have a hard time offering conclusive evidence that it wasn't.

    Well, my reasoning is on my belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Its not me pulling a location out of no where, or randomly asserting that it is in X location.

    Of course, but what proof do you have that Joseph Smith was not pulling a location out of no where? What funds your enterprise of belief in Joseph Smith? For what reason do you have faith in Joseph Smith?

    Seriously J not only are you a monumentally umpleasant person when you start uttering the nonsense that passes for philosophy in your mind (shame on whatever institution you graduated in, and shame on your tutors for creating such a monster), but your sense of humor, such as it is, is awful.
  • Element BrianElement Brian Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    _J_ wrote: »
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    It is impossible to prove a universal negative given how proof functions.

    Do you believe that Native Americans were descendants of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

    Yes, yes I do. I'm not sure where your going with this, but I can tell, if you its Church Doctrine, and you are holding it in the correct context, then yes, I can say I believe it.

    The problem is, people usually take our beliefs and dont present them in the light or context from which they derived. Out of that light they might seem foolish, but with the whole puzzle together, I understand and accept it, and dont find it nearly as incomprehensible as any other belief in any other religion.
    _J_ wrote: »
    Of course, but what proof do you have that Joseph Smith was not pulling a location out of no where? What funds your enterprise of belief in Joseph Smith? For what reason do you have faith in Joseph Smith?

    John 7:17 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself"

    I have lived part of my life not following the gospel, not living up to the light or knowledge that I possess. And then I have lived my life following the gospel, doing as this scripture say and following what I believe to be his will.

    Since doing this, I have fealt the spirit more abundantly in my life. I can truly say that I at times feel the presence of God. This would not happen if I had not changed the way I was doing things, and it is not something I was experiencing when I was disobeying the gospel.

    I believe that we all are born with the light of Christ. It prompts us towards choosing the right. The more we heed its promptings, the stronger its influence is and the easier it is to discern its promptings. Even though everyone is born with this light, the more someone does not heed it, the less stronger its influence is, and the harder it is for that person to recognize it.

    As I have lived the gospel, these promptings have become very stronger, and I feel that these promptings are evidence of the truthfullness of the gospel.

    Lastly, I have experienced for myself, certain events of a holier nature. There is one specific time where I had a near death experience, and because of that Light of Christ which I mentioned, because of those promptings, I was able to escape that situation, where as, if I had not had those promptings, I would not be sitting here typing to you right now. There have been other experiences, moments when I have witnessed strong yet reverent spiritual experiences.

    All these things beckon me to believe in God and that Joseph Smith was his Prophet. All in all, I truly believe that God has answered my prayers privately in ways that are discernable to me, that these things are true.

    I like the idea of the carbonation in your pop being too much for your mormon body

    too worldly nooooo
  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    Do...do you have any proof of your position to begin with? Because I can assert that the Garden of Eden was on Jupiter, and you'd most likely have a hard time offering conclusive evidence that it wasn't.

    Well, my reasoning is on my belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Its not me pulling a location out of no where, or randomly asserting that it is in X location.

    The thing is if you are trying to make a reasoned argument then it is the burden of the person making the positive claim (eg: the garden was in Missouri) to provide the proof. That's how reason works.

    Obviously this does not apply if it is an opinion based purely upon blind faith. But in that case it is completely impossible to even discuss the issue. You cannot disprove blind faith with any evidence at all, no matter how concrete, because it is not based on evidence to begin with.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    _J_ wrote: »
    I believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God and through him God Restored his church and keys to the earth in this era.

    So yes, yes I do believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Why, do you happen to have proof to the contrary?

    It is impossible to prove a universal negative given how proof functions.

    Do you believe that Native Americans were descendants of one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

    Yes, yes I do. I'm not sure where your going with this, but I can tell, if you its Church Doctrine, and you are holding it in the correct context, then yes, I can say I believe it.

    The problem is, people usually take our beliefs and dont present them in the light or context from which they derived. Out of that light they might seem foolish, but with the whole puzzle together, I understand and accept it, and dont find it nearly as incomprehensible as any other belief in any other religion.

    What of situations where that fundamental context is at odds with other contexts put forth by science, physics, and the general empirical enterprise of knowledge?

    Asked another way, do you get a flu vaccine and then deny evolution? How does your operative religious context interract with other empirical / scientific contexts?

    Seriously J not only are you a monumentally umpleasant person when you start uttering the nonsense that passes for philosophy in your mind (shame on whatever institution you graduated in, and shame on your tutors for creating such a monster), but your sense of humor, such as it is, is awful.
  • TubeTube Working As Intended Administrator, ClubPA admin
    edited July 2009
    let's not turn this into another buttfuck stupid anti religion thread.

2
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