Man that aint the theory, writing something other then what the author wrote in their own fucking book is just editing, you aren't adjusting shit to some true vision.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
For books its intended when the race of the character isn't addressed. It's a writer technique to have you adjust the cast to your taste and connect with them better.
But.. what makes it bad when Hollywood does it?
Hollywood is after-all an American thing where the majority of the population is white.
To me it's not really "bad" or anything. It's an easy way to make money, by assuming the majority of the movie-going public is a) mostly white, and/or b) used to seeing whites in leading roles. Catering to the demographic, and all that.
However, you can see why people would get upset about it when it's a white person taking the lead role of "The Last of the Mohicans" or "The Last Samurai". While it does appeal to the correct demographics, it sacrifices quite a few things such as realism, historical accuracy, blah blah blah political correctness.
But I understand why Hollywood does it. Visuals are much more impacting than reading a novel since you can go an entire book without ever thinking about the protagonist's face, whereas in a movie you see it like 100% of screentime.
Not to completely disagree, but an appeal to the market doesn't make something "good".
I mean your entire post is pretty much accurate, I disagree that it isn't "bad".
I mean this isn't a binary though- it may not be "bad" per se, but it is certainly not good
Well yeah, not good, but it's what happens for pretty understandable reasons.
Man, I don't get people who get their knickers in a twist about whitewashed films. If you don't like it, don't watch it and hope it'll be a commercial failure so moviemakers might be a bit more careful about whitewashing in the future.
Alternatively write in to your local newspaper or get movie critics to get annoyed at the whitewashing.
Bitching about it online because it's some sort of perceived racism (which is generally wouldn't be unless you've got some strange KKK director in charge of the movie or something) is just dumb.
For context, I immensely enjoyed blue Avatar, even in spite of it being indicative of what I see as not necessarily a problem, but definitely an uncomfortable trend
I don't think it's a moral failing on the part of the author/screenwriter/etc, but I think it's perfectly fair to point out when a book or movie offers a simplistic, superficial depiction of a different culture.
It might not even be that damning. In the case of Avatar, the whole movie is simplistic. I don't expect anything more from it. And it's offering a simplistic view of a fantasy race; I don't think that the Navi are directly comparable enough to any one real Earth culture to be considered a veiled allegory.
In the case of a movie like Dances With Wolves, though, it is a lot more damning. I don't think DWW survives as a story if you remove/ignore the Native American stereotypes, and I think a lot of its appeal at the time was it's well-meaning, but condescending, sensitivity towards Sioux.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
For context, I immensely enjoyed blue Avatar, even in spite of it being indicative of what I see as not necessarily a problem, but definitely an uncomfortable trend
I don't think it's a moral failing on the part of the author/screenwriter/etc, but I think it's perfectly fair to point out when a book or movie offers a simplistic, superficial depiction of a different culture.
It might not even be that damning. In the case of Avatar, the whole movie is simplistic. I don't expect anything more from it. And it's offering a simplistic view of a fantasy race; I don't think that the Navi are directly comparable enough to any one real Earth culture to be considered a veiled allegory.
In the case of a movie like Dances With Wolves, though, it is a lot more damning. I don't think DWW survives as a story if you remove/ignore the Native American stereotypes, and I think a lot of its appeal at the time was it's well-meaning, but condescending, sensitivity towards Sioux.
I had a whole thing typed up about people reacting to Avatar more for the trope it seems to fit in rather than its specifics, but I lost it when the thread closed
Wasn't thunderheart based on a real story? And I'm pretty sure that Kilmer was supposed to be part native american right?
it's kind of loosely based on a real incident
and yeah, his character is supposed to be half-indian and discovering his roots, IIRC
So its more about Hollywood using Kilmer in the role? Or I'm at a loss why you pointed it out?
Well, basically yeah. He's still kind of the white guy going into the other place and learning the thing and saving them, although at least with the whole it's-a-part-of-my-heritage-I'm-learning-about-now angle. No idea if that part is factual or was introduced in the movie-fication
Senjutsu on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
at first i didn't think anything of it, but now i'm positive she's a horrible racist. i bet she looks at that word every time it comes up and thinks 'yeah, that's what I'M talking about'
For books its intended when the race of the character isn't addressed. It's a writer technique to have you adjust the cast to your taste and connect with them better.
But.. what makes it bad when Hollywood does it?
Hollywood is after-all an American thing where the majority of the population is white.
To me it's not really "bad" or anything. It's an easy way to make money, by assuming the majority of the movie-going public is a) mostly white, and/or b) used to seeing whites in leading roles. Catering to the demographic, and all that.
However, you can see why people would get upset about it when it's a white person taking the lead role of "The Last of the Mohicans" or "The Last Samurai". While it does appeal to the correct demographics, it sacrifices quite a few things such as realism, historical accuracy, blah blah blah political correctness.
But I understand why Hollywood does it. Visuals are much more impacting than reading a novel since you can go an entire book without ever thinking about the protagonist's face, whereas in a movie you see it like 100% of screentime.
Not to completely disagree, but an appeal to the market doesn't make something "good".
I mean your entire post is pretty much accurate, I disagree that it isn't "bad".
I mean this isn't a binary though- it may not be "bad" per se, but it is certainly not good
Of course. I think it's a pretty clear-cut "hmm there's something manipulative about this whole thing" vibe going on, but as far as Hollywood is concerned, they do whatever has to be done to continue being successful.
Eddy on
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Oh my dear God. I just heard Michele Bachmann is talking about running for president. If by some fluke that awful, crazy bitch gets elected, I swear to God I will flee to Canada, or just flat-out kill myself to avoid the consequences.
Ellie on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
For context, I immensely enjoyed blue Avatar, even in spite of it being indicative of what I see as not necessarily a problem, but definitely an uncomfortable trend
I don't think it's a moral failing on the part of the author/screenwriter/etc, but I think it's perfectly fair to point out when a book or movie offers a simplistic, superficial depiction of a different culture.
It might not even be that damning. In the case of Avatar, the whole movie is simplistic. I don't expect anything more from it. And it's offering a simplistic view of a fantasy race; I don't think that the Navi are directly comparable enough to any one real Earth culture to be considered a veiled allegory.
In the case of a movie like Dances With Wolves, though, it is a lot more damning. I don't think DWW survives as a story if you remove/ignore the Native American stereotypes, and I think a lot of its appeal at the time was it's well-meaning, but condescending, sensitivity towards Sioux.
It doesn't work well with them either. But it is a pretty racist movie.
at first i didn't think anything of it, but now i'm positive she's a horrible racist. i bet she looks at that word every time it comes up and thinks 'yeah, that's what I'M talking about'
She has each page containing that word bookmarked, and the word highlighted. She's added the page number and word placement on the page to her huge Excel spreadsheet of books with the n-word in them. She can cross-reference by, author, publishing house, date...
Oh my dear God. I just heard Michele Bachmann is talking about running for president. If by some fluke that awful, crazy bitch gets elected, I swear to God I will flee to Canada, or just flat-out kill myself to avoid the consequences.
Suicide pact?
Last one to die, please turn out the lights.
Jokerman on
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AriviaI Like A ChallengeEarth-1Registered Userregular
at first i didn't think anything of it, but now i'm positive she's a horrible racist. i bet she looks at that word every time it comes up and thinks 'yeah, that's what I'M talking about'
She has each page containing that word bookmarked, and the word highlighted. She's added the page number and word placement on the page to her huge Excel spreadsheet of books with the n-word in them. She can cross-reference by, author, publishing house, date...
Oh my dear God. I just heard Michele Bachmann is talking about running for president. If by some fluke that awful, crazy bitch gets elected, I swear to God I will flee to Canada, or just flat-out kill myself to avoid the consequences.
If her and Palin are the candidates for the Republican nom in 2012, I am watching the news 24/7 because that will be better than any movie.
Well, basically yeah. He's still kind of the white guy going into the other place and learning the thing and saving them, although at least with the whole it's-a-part-of-my-heritage-I'm-learning-about-now angle. No idea if that part is factual or was introduced in the movie-fication
Quigley Down Under kind of had that, but I don't really put it in the same thing, because its not like he taught the aboriginees to fight, he was just more skilled at killing their actual oponents with his technology.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Oh my dear God. I just heard Michele Bachmann is talking about running for president. If by some fluke that awful, crazy bitch gets elected, I swear to God I will flee to Canada, or just flat-out kill myself to avoid the consequences.
If her and Palin are the candidates for the Republican nom in 2012, I am watching the news 24/7 because that will be better than any movie.
I know, right? I will not be able to get enough of Rachel Maddow if it's a Palin/Bachmann ticket of any sort. But I will still lose a lot of faith in my country if either of them manages to get elected. Not kidding.
at first i didn't think anything of it, but now i'm positive she's a horrible racist. i bet she looks at that word every time it comes up and thinks 'yeah, that's what I'M talking about'
She has each page containing that word bookmarked, and the word highlighted. She's added the page number and word placement on the page to her huge Excel spreadsheet of books with the n-word in them. She can cross-reference by, author, publishing house, date...
Forget the LHC, put Palin and Bachmann in a room and make them duke it out for the Republican presidential nomination. Things will be colliding at the speed of light in no time.
Well, basically yeah. He's still kind of the white guy going into the other place and learning the thing and saving them, although at least with the whole it's-a-part-of-my-heritage-I'm-learning-about-now angle. No idea if that part is factual or was introduced in the movie-fication
Quigley Down Under kind of had that, but I don't really put it in the same thing, because its not like he taught the aboriginees to fight, he was just more skilled at killing their actual oponents with his technology.
I'm also not really sure that Huck Finn is suitable for middle school or high school, but even if that were the case, the answer isn't to Bowdlerize it, but to choose a different work.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Also I've always enjoyed how people who edit old works pull out the "It's closer to what the author really meant" reasoning. You pretentious fuck, it's words written on paper by the author's actual hand. I'm pretty sure what the author meant is what they wrote down by using the writing implement in their hand that was attached to their body, being controlled by their brain.
Welcome to the wild world of literary theory
Careful you don't step in the bullllllshit
Well sometimes I think it'd be ok. Like, I would be cool with retitling The Great Gatsby.
Also, fuck me. I thought chat was just talking about n-words and Huck Finn for kicks. I didnt realize this stupid shit was happening for real.
Also, is it illegal to enter the other gender's bathroom in a restaurant?
Is quigley down under as hilarious as the wikipedia article for it sounds?
I dunno what you mean by hilarious. Its a straight western with Tom Selleck as the lone Gunfighter come to town to take on the evil cattleman in Alan Rickman. Just instead of a pistol, he's packing a huge fucking rifle.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Is quigley down under as hilarious as the wikipedia article for it sounds?
I dunno what you mean by hilarious. Its a straight western with Tom Selleck as the lone Gunfighter come to town to take on the evil cattleman in Alan Rickman. Just instead of a pistol, he's packing a huge fucking rifle.
Posts
(say that in a spooky voice and read matt's post)
pleasepaypreacher.net
what are you a writer
huh
huh???
Well yeah, not good, but it's what happens for pretty understandable reasons.
Man, I don't get people who get their knickers in a twist about whitewashed films. If you don't like it, don't watch it and hope it'll be a commercial failure so moviemakers might be a bit more careful about whitewashing in the future.
Alternatively write in to your local newspaper or get movie critics to get annoyed at the whitewashing.
Bitching about it online because it's some sort of perceived racism (which is generally wouldn't be unless you've got some strange KKK director in charge of the movie or something) is just dumb.
I don't think it's a moral failing on the part of the author/screenwriter/etc, but I think it's perfectly fair to point out when a book or movie offers a simplistic, superficial depiction of a different culture.
It might not even be that damning. In the case of Avatar, the whole movie is simplistic. I don't expect anything more from it. And it's offering a simplistic view of a fantasy race; I don't think that the Navi are directly comparable enough to any one real Earth culture to be considered a veiled allegory.
In the case of a movie like Dances With Wolves, though, it is a lot more damning. I don't think DWW survives as a story if you remove/ignore the Native American stereotypes, and I think a lot of its appeal at the time was it's well-meaning, but condescending, sensitivity towards Sioux.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Actually...
Sadly unpublished, but I think I'm awesome.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Very well put.
This is why I love you.
Well, basically yeah. He's still kind of the white guy going into the other place and learning the thing and saving them, although at least with the whole it's-a-part-of-my-heritage-I'm-learning-about-now angle. No idea if that part is factual or was introduced in the movie-fication
what
I thought all wars prior to ww1 were played out with little army men on a landscaped table
wargaming is a timehonoured tradition handed down from our forefathers, paint jobs the work of honest, good men
waterloo was won when the count of vichy accidentally went loo over the french forces and all that
Dead serious.
That's what an 18th century hand grenade looked like. That's what a Grenadier threw.
oh uh
uh
awwwwkwarrrddddddd
the book has the n-word in it
at first i didn't think anything of it, but now i'm positive she's a horrible racist. i bet she looks at that word every time it comes up and thinks 'yeah, that's what I'M talking about'
On the black screen
Of course. I think it's a pretty clear-cut "hmm there's something manipulative about this whole thing" vibe going on, but as far as Hollywood is concerned, they do whatever has to be done to continue being successful.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
It doesn't work well with them either. But it is a pretty racist movie.
Suicide pact?
Last one to die, please turn out the lights.
also how many times she audibly came.
This [chat] is amphibious!
I hear that if you lick it you'll have hallucinations.
I wish I could give a more nuanced critique, but its just bad.
Quigley Down Under kind of had that, but I don't really put it in the same thing, because its not like he taught the aboriginees to fight, he was just more skilled at killing their actual oponents with his technology.
pleasepaypreacher.net
But these are so much smaller than the ones you see in cartoons!
I edited his nose all broken, critically removed a few teeth to tighten the plot, and filled in the details of his black eyes
I know, right? I will not be able to get enough of Rachel Maddow if it's a Palin/Bachmann ticket of any sort. But I will still lose a lot of faith in my country if either of them manages to get elected. Not kidding.
You mean some sort of racist relational database?
Is quigley down under as hilarious as the wikipedia article for it sounds?
apparently it grows on you, according to robert khoo
(like a brain tumor HEYOOOOO)
On the black screen
oh man, that movie takes me back
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Oversized for humor, ya know nothing is funnier then a bigger bomb.
Well sometimes I think it'd be ok. Like, I would be cool with retitling The Great Gatsby.
Also, fuck me. I thought chat was just talking about n-words and Huck Finn for kicks. I didnt realize this stupid shit was happening for real.
Also, is it illegal to enter the other gender's bathroom in a restaurant?
I dunno what you mean by hilarious. Its a straight western with Tom Selleck as the lone Gunfighter come to town to take on the evil cattleman in Alan Rickman. Just instead of a pistol, he's packing a huge fucking rifle.
pleasepaypreacher.net
but that sounds hilarious
You Grew On Me