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Superman vs Goku: Who would win??

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »

    no, I'm mostly talking about his tendency to be EXTREME for its own sake

    this isn't a thing that happens in his max run really though

    the super explicit shit is maybe 10% of the violence in the book

    and it's brief enough to be shocking without getting old

    and it usually serves a purpose (which is usually showing exactly how fucked a situation is/how pissed off frank is)

    read The Slavers

    it is seriously the height of his run and requires basically zero knowledge of the rest of the series

    i agree that ennis has a tendency to be super extreme but in the last few years he's managed to reign himself in and at least have the extreme shit have a narrative purpose

    that was not the impression I got

    and it shows in the dialogue, too

    like there's a part early in punisher MAX where some goombas are in a place where clam chowder is traditionally tomato-based and therefore red, not white

    one of them orders some for lunch and is not pleased with this

    he yells at the waitress and tells her to bring take it back and bring him chowder that "she didn't have her period in"

    hrrrrRRRRRRRRGHGHHGHGHHG

    that is so fucking stupid

    SO STUPID

    the dumbest

    that dude is also explicitly a psychopath with horrendous rage issues so maybe oging "ugh the super mad crazy guy acted super mad and crazy" is a bad argument

    read The Slavers

    nobody doesn't like The Slavers

    umm I don't think you know what "explicitly" means

    at no point before that had anyone said, "he is a psychopath"

    and that was just one example of all the stupid bullshit dialogue

    no, I'm not reading anymore of it

    I gave it a chance, it was exactly as stupid as all the other dumb horseshit Ennis couldn't help sneaking into Hitman and Preacher on occasion, except it was all the time

    same with The Boys

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    TrippyJing wrote: »
    Antimatter wrote: »
    i've read silver age comics since i was 6 Buttlord


    suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick



    honestly, a lot of this argument comes from ignorance

    it's entirely more likely that people in the arguments have seen or read all of Dragonball Z than have seen or read all of Superman's media

    so, you know, entirely understandable that people don't know what Superman can do, what he does do, why he's so goddamn great

    I thought we were ignoring Silver Age.

    Because Silver Age is just silly.

    that citing of silver age was in response to buttlord posting that thing that girls didn't actually know about comics


    and the Silver Age was not entirely silly! hell, the darkest moment of the Silver Age is darker than anything after it.

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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Shorty wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »

    no, I'm mostly talking about his tendency to be EXTREME for its own sake

    this isn't a thing that happens in his max run really though

    the super explicit shit is maybe 10% of the violence in the book

    and it's brief enough to be shocking without getting old

    and it usually serves a purpose (which is usually showing exactly how fucked a situation is/how pissed off frank is)

    read The Slavers

    it is seriously the height of his run and requires basically zero knowledge of the rest of the series

    i agree that ennis has a tendency to be super extreme but in the last few years he's managed to reign himself in and at least have the extreme shit have a narrative purpose

    that was not the impression I got

    and it shows in the dialogue, too

    like there's a part early in punisher MAX where some goombas are in a place where clam chowder is traditionally tomato-based and therefore red, not white

    one of them orders some for lunch and is not pleased with this

    he yells at the waitress and tells her to bring take it back and bring him chowder that "she didn't have her period in"

    hrrrrRRRRRRRRGHGHHGHGHHG

    that is so fucking stupid

    SO STUPID

    the dumbest

    that dude is also explicitly a psychopath with horrendous rage issues so maybe oging "ugh the super mad crazy guy acted super mad and crazy" is a bad argument

    read The Slavers

    nobody doesn't like The Slavers

    umm I don't think you know what "explicitly" means

    at no point before that had anyone said, "he is a psychopath"

    and that was just one example of all the stupid bullshit dialogue

    no, I'm not reading anymore of it

    I gave it a chance, it was exactly as stupid as all the other dumb horseshit Ennis couldn't help sneaking into Hitman and Preacher on occasion, except it was all the time

    same with The Boys

    you are absolutely one hundred percent wrong on both counts

    you're judging 60+ issues on the contents of the first (few) arcs of each series

    which are absolutely the weakest for both series

    read it or not but don't be a goose about it

    also if we're going to do the UH EXCUSE ME YOU USED THE WRONG WORD thing again then fine pretend i said implicitly there jesus fuckin christ

    it does not invalidate my argument unless you can't figure out what i meant because you're too busy being a goose

    Buttlord on
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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    TrippyJing wrote: »
    Antimatter wrote: »
    i've read silver age comics since i was 6 Buttlord


    suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck myyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick



    honestly, a lot of this argument comes from ignorance

    it's entirely more likely that people in the arguments have seen or read all of Dragonball Z than have seen or read all of Superman's media

    so, you know, entirely understandable that people don't know what Superman can do, what he does do, why he's so goddamn great

    I thought we were ignoring Silver Age.

    Because Silver Age is just silly.

    that citing of silver age was in response to buttlord posting that thing that girls didn't actually know about comics


    and the Silver Age was not entirely silly! hell, the darkest moment of the Silver Age is darker than anything after it.

    what was the darkest moment

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    TrippyJingTrippyJing Moses supposes his toeses are roses. But Moses supposes erroneously.Registered User regular
    Wait, I thought we were talking DC.

    b1ehrMM.gif
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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    Gwen Stacy's death

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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    like i'm pretty fuckin sure when someone says "hey pittsy and ink are coming to town" someone actually says "holy shit what the fuck no those guys are nuts"

    but

    whatever

    i dont feel like digging out my copy of in the beginning over you being a goose
    Antimatter wrote: »
    Gwen Stacy's death

    i always thought that was bronze age

    i always though the silver age ended about the time marvel started doing their Thing

    Buttlord on
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    Butler For Life #1Butler For Life #1 Twinning is WinningRegistered User regular
    Watchmen and DKR

    the no-fun age

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    like i'm pretty fuckin sure when someone says "hey pittsy and ink are coming to town" someone actually says "holy shit what the fuck no those guys are nuts"

    but

    whatever

    i dont feel like digging out my copy of in the beginning over you being a goose
    Antimatter wrote: »
    Gwen Stacy's death

    i always thought that was bronze age

    i always though the silver age ended about the time marvel started doing their Thing

    preeeeettty sure that post-gwen stacy's death is the bronze age, and then the bronze age ended after Watchmen and DKR

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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    really

    huh

    i mean i knew bronze age moved into the "dark age" or whatever want to call it after Watchmen and DKR did their whole fuckin shit but for some reason i always correlate the rise of marvel and their style with the end of the silver age

    learnin shit i guess

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    you know what i really, really love

    that Morrison had the balls to talk about the various ages of superheroes within his Flash run, who incidentally is his favorite superhero


    Golden age, Silver Age, Bronze age, Dark age, and the modern era were all discussed, but in the context of them being descriptors that people referred to for their reality

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    unintentionalunintentional smelly Registered User regular
    Watchmen and DKR

    the no-fun age

    donkey kong: revolution

    After donkey kong lets power go to his head, play as tiny kong as she leads the rebel kongs through a campaign of gorilla warfare to take down the lead ape

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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    i don't remember that at all

    but

    i haven't read GMo's flash in years

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    Watchmen and DKR

    the no-fun age

    donkey kong: revolution

    After donkey kong lets power go to his head, play as tiny kong as she leads the rebel kongs through a campaign of gorilla warfare to take down the lead ape
    you are joking and obviously don't care but fuck you saying anyway



    Dark Knight Returns

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    ZayZay yes i am zay Registered User regular
    Watchmen and DKR

    the no-fun age

    donkey kong: revolution

    After donkey kong lets power go to his head, play as tiny kong as she leads the rebel kongs through a campaign of gorilla warfare to take down the lead ape

    it's Donkey Konga Revolution you phillistine

    Gotta fight off the woes of deforestation the only way you know how: one Pokemon song at a time

    sthbuf0g7b7y.png
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    Butler For Life #1Butler For Life #1 Twinning is WinningRegistered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    you know what i really, really love

    that Morrison had the balls to talk about the various ages of superheroes within his Flash run, who incidentally is his favorite superhero


    Golden age, Silver Age, Bronze age, Dark age, and the modern era were all discussed, but in the context of them being descriptors that people referred to for their reality

    I like Morrison's commentary on early '90s comics with Flex Mentallo

    at the end of his first appearance he talks about how he sees superheroes being sad and that's not right

    so he's going to put a smile on everyone's face

    I love Flex Mentallo

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    chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Do you think it's trademarked?Registered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    like i'm pretty fuckin sure when someone says "hey pittsy and ink are coming to town" someone actually says "holy shit what the fuck no those guys are nuts"

    but

    whatever

    i dont feel like digging out my copy of in the beginning over you being a goose
    Antimatter wrote: »
    Gwen Stacy's death

    i always thought that was bronze age

    i always though the silver age ended about the time marvel started doing their Thing

    It's a fine line, and Stacey is almost definitely Bronze, but it's WAY after Marvel became the house Stan and Jack built.

    People talk about Silver Age Marvel all the time. Stan and Jack (and Ditko and Romita and so on) were doing amazing new stuff while DC was going into its rut.

    I mean, there were stinkers sometimes, but generally every issue of FF was doing something new, daring, something that comics weren't supposed to do.

    The Fantastic Four went broke due to Reed Richards sucking at the stock market in their first year.

    Next issue? Dr. Doom breaks into the Marvel offices to hold Stan and Jack at gunpoint. This is a key story beat.

    Heroes were human and vulnerable. Villains reformed. An entity who was about as close to God as the CCA would allow in an antagonist showed up to eat Earth for brunch.

    The next issue was a character study of a one off mad scientist.

    Silver Age was Marvel doing their thing. It's where their thing was invented.

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    Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    preacher is hilarious and you shan't convince me otherwise

    it's the same sense of humour as tarantino and exploitation films

    but even more so because in comics you can do anything

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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    i really dislike preacher because it felt like he was trying too hard to be edgy

    like it is a fine line to do shit like that and not look like an asshole

    the end of inglorious basterds toes that line beautifully with the "this is my masterpiece" line

    preacher just felt way too much like a guy going "and then the DESCENDENT OF JESUS IS RETARDED" and thinking it's incredible and it's not

    but like i said before he's gotten a lot better about grounding that kind of shit with the characters since then

    so hey i can't be too mad

    true story i can't spell descendents right because of the band spelling it with no A

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »

    no, I'm mostly talking about his tendency to be EXTREME for its own sake

    this isn't a thing that happens in his max run really though

    the super explicit shit is maybe 10% of the violence in the book

    and it's brief enough to be shocking without getting old

    and it usually serves a purpose (which is usually showing exactly how fucked a situation is/how pissed off frank is)

    read The Slavers

    it is seriously the height of his run and requires basically zero knowledge of the rest of the series

    i agree that ennis has a tendency to be super extreme but in the last few years he's managed to reign himself in and at least have the extreme shit have a narrative purpose

    that was not the impression I got

    and it shows in the dialogue, too

    like there's a part early in punisher MAX where some goombas are in a place where clam chowder is traditionally tomato-based and therefore red, not white

    one of them orders some for lunch and is not pleased with this

    he yells at the waitress and tells her to bring take it back and bring him chowder that "she didn't have her period in"

    hrrrrRRRRRRRRGHGHHGHGHHG

    that is so fucking stupid

    SO STUPID

    the dumbest

    that dude is also explicitly a psychopath with horrendous rage issues so maybe oging "ugh the super mad crazy guy acted super mad and crazy" is a bad argument

    read The Slavers

    nobody doesn't like The Slavers

    umm I don't think you know what "explicitly" means

    at no point before that had anyone said, "he is a psychopath"

    and that was just one example of all the stupid bullshit dialogue

    no, I'm not reading anymore of it

    I gave it a chance, it was exactly as stupid as all the other dumb horseshit Ennis couldn't help sneaking into Hitman and Preacher on occasion, except it was all the time

    same with The Boys

    you are absolutely one hundred percent wrong on both counts

    you're judging 60+ issues on the contents of the first (few) arcs of each series

    which are absolutely the weakest for both series

    read it or not but don't be a goose about it

    also if we're going to do the UH EXCUSE ME YOU USED THE WRONG WORD thing again then fine pretend i said implicitly there jesus fuckin christ

    it does not invalidate my argument unless you can't figure out what i meant because you're too busy being a goose

    if a writer can't make me want to read his/her story after a few hours worth of reading then he/she is a shit writer

    that's storytelling 101

    christ that's not even 101

    that's like one of those 98-level classes for people who don't even speak the language

    and you really need to work on not getting bent out of shape when people assume you used the words you used on purpose

    unless you want me to assume that you don't have any idea what you're saying henceforth

    because I can do that

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    i really dislike preacher because it felt like he was trying too hard to be edgy

    like it is a fine line to do shit like that and not look like an asshole

    the end of inglorious basterds toes that line beautifully with the "this is my masterpiece" line

    preacher just felt way too much like a guy going "and then the DESCENDENT OF JESUS IS RETARDED" and thinking it's incredible and it's not

    but like i said before he's gotten a lot better about grounding that kind of shit with the characters since then

    so hey i can't be too mad

    true story i can't spell descendents right because of the band spelling it with no A

    this is what ennis does with everything

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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    Shorty wrote: »
    Buttlord wrote: »
    i really dislike preacher because it felt like he was trying too hard to be edgy

    like it is a fine line to do shit like that and not look like an asshole

    the end of inglorious basterds toes that line beautifully with the "this is my masterpiece" line

    preacher just felt way too much like a guy going "and then the DESCENDENT OF JESUS IS RETARDED" and thinking it's incredible and it's not

    but like i said before he's gotten a lot better about grounding that kind of shit with the characters since then

    so hey i can't be too mad

    true story i can't spell descendents right because of the band spelling it with no A

    this is what ennis does with everything

    i keep saying that he's gotten a lot better since preacher but you don't give a shit so whatever

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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    preacher is absolutely one of the worst comics i've ever tried to read

    there's good parts

    the arc about jesse's childhood i like

    but most of that book is just "heh. religion" and ugh

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    preacher is absolutely one of the worst comics i've ever tried to read

    there's good parts

    the arc about jesse's childhood i like

    but most of that book is just "heh. religion" and ugh

    there's an arc maybe four trades in that is basically the origin story for the saint of killers

    and it's excellent

    mostly dispenses with the RELIGION OH HO HO stuff

    basically Ennis' take on a western vengeance story

    and it's not illustrated by steve dillon

    so, aces

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    Raijin QuickfootRaijin Quickfoot I'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Reading this thread has reminded me that it's still 3 months before the next Scalped trade is due to come out.

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    Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    Steve Dillon needs to learn to draw more than one kind of lips

    but i always felt like the God stuff was the least important part of the book? like really the Big Theme is about friendship and how even your closest mates can fuck you over. i don't think Ennis actually gives a shit about religion one way or the other, it's just there to make the plot tick along

    and i know his sense of humour verges on the childish but i actually think the comedy in Preacher is all really well executed

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    Steve Dillon needs to learn to draw more than one kind of lips

    he needs to learn how to draw more than one kind of face altogether

    seriously he just draws the same face and puts different hair on top

    and normally it's not a huge deal

    but there are some spots where the writing makes it really jarring

    like, way back when Ennis and Dillon were doing Hellblazer together, Constantine was dating this Irish gal

    I think her name was Kit

    she just had the same face Dillon drew on everyone, so she looked like a man

    and there were a couple times when characters would comment on how pretty she was

    and I was all, AHAHAHA NO

    Shorty on
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    Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    Shorty wrote: »
    Steve Dillon needs to learn to draw more than one kind of lips

    he needs to learn how to draw more than one kind of face altogether

    seriously he just draws the same face and puts different hair on top

    and normally it's not a huge deal

    but there are some spots where the writing makes it really jarring

    like, way back when Ennis and Dillon were doing Hellblazer together, Constantine was dating this Irish gal

    I think her name was Kit

    she just had the same face Dillon drew on everyone, so she looked like a man

    and there were a couple times when characters would comment on how pretty she was

    and I was all, AHAHAHA NO

    i remember reading this actually

    it's a pity because the guy's style is really distinct and works really well for a certain type of story, i wouldn't want to see him stop working

    but for fuck's sake dude

    how did you never learn to do this one thing

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    edited April 2012
    some artists just get these huge blind spots and for whatever reason nobody tells them about it

    frank quitely has the same kind of thing

    his linework on figures and especially faces is just so frenetic

    everyone looks like a sack of potatoes

    or like alex ross, whose figures and faces are beautiful

    but dude can't tell a visual story for shit

    those two guys need to collaborate

    quitely does all the layouts and placements, roughs everyone in

    ross does everything else

    and if we're going the allstar route

    fuck it, have warren ellis or grant morrison write it

    Shorty on
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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Antimatter wrote: »
    Gwen Stacy's death

    i always thought that was bronze age

    i always though the silver age ended about the time marvel started doing their Thing

    Nah man, the Silver Age ended when Gwen Stacy died and the Joker started murdering people again. Both of those things happened in 1973.

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    LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    People tend to forget that modern Superman is significantly less powerful than he was decades ago.

    For a long time now, Superman, while being one of the most powerful superheroes on earth, has not been anywhere near godlike. He can no longer move planets around casually, he no longer has a billion powers, he can no longer reverse time by flying really fast. He is far from untouchable.

    You don't need to be magic to hurt Superman. You don't need kryptonite to hurt Superman. You just need to have super strength or another strong ability. It does not take a God to give him a challenge. There are other characters as fast or faster, other characters as strong or stronger.

    Meanwhile, DBZ is fucking crazy. In the very first arc, a dude decides the moon is inconvenient, so he shoots a beam from his finger up into space effortlessly, and blows it the hell up. And this takes nothing out of him. Modern Superman isn't going to zap the moon with his heat vision once and explode it. Meanwhile, the main characters all have comparative super speed and super strength from pretty much the beginning, and projectile attacks capable of incredible devastation. And it just gets stupider and more ridiculous as it goes on. It is a fair fight at best if you're going with Vegeta-arc Goku. Anything later than that and modern Supes doesn't stand much of a chance.

    And that's a good thing. The fact that Superman can be challenged by regular villains and situations and can't just beat everyone with god powers is a positive, and one of the biggest reasons why the massive power-down after the silver age is good for the character.

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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    as far as superman's power goes to make it fair shouldn't you use the superman from the late 80s to mid-90s since that's when dragonball z first aired

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    as far as superman's power goes to make it fair shouldn't you use the superman from the late 80s to mid-90s since that's when dragonball z first aired

    that's still post-crisis, which is when his power was reduced

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    Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    If we take into account that Soulja Boy says he looks like Goku, and "Supermans" hos

    What conclusion can we draw from this

    xmassig2.gif
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    LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that it all comes down to what part of the character's history we're going with.

    Silver Age Supes probably beats early Goku. Goku late in the series trounces modern Superman. Both at their most powerful versions? It would be the most ridiculous fight ever.

    But I think that to a lot of people, Superman is associated with his silver age/Donner films powers despite not being anywhere close to that in decades.

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    DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    that I had forgotten that thing had existed and was happier for it until you brought it up just now

    0BnD8l3.gif
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    ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    Shorty wrote: »
    some artists just get these huge blind spots and for whatever reason nobody tells them about it

    frank quitely has the same kind of thing

    his linework on figures and especially faces is just so frenetic

    everyone looks like a sack of potatoes

    or like alex ross, whose figures and faces are beautiful

    but dude can't tell a visual story for shit

    those two guys need to collaborate

    quitely does all the layouts and placements, roughs everyone in

    ross does everything else

    and if we're going the allstar route

    fuck it, have warren ellis or grant morrison write it

    alex ross' issue is that everything he does looks exactly the same

    and i don't just mean the photorealistic thing

    you ever see his designs for original costumes? they're all the same

    hero's colors on the mask, a triangle on the upper chest, and the gloves

    he designed bucky's cap suit

    and every one of his suit designs looks like that

    dude is incredibly fucking limited

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    PSsoT.jpg
    yerp

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    DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    isn't that just like

    spider-man's costume, but a lot of it is black now

    0BnD8l3.gif
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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    I don't want to get too down on Ross because he's a super-talented guy

    but yes

    he's definitely got areas he could improve in

This discussion has been closed.