I kind of assumed that any Big Boss game after MGS3 would kind of lose the emotional thread that made that game resonate with me, where it basically suggested that grief and pain warped the sense of justice of a good man into something darker, more sinister
Like I spent years assuming that Outer Heaven was literally a monument to what he thought the Boss's principles would have been, but his love was so fierce and his pain so blinding that he lost his way
I have a feeling that all the BB games since then haven't exactly held to that idea
MGS2's "crazy ending nobody understands" boils down to "there's a shadow government running America, Solidus is trying to destroy it, also the entire Big Shell incident was an operation recreating Shadow Moses to try and see if the Patriots can create their own soldier on the level of Solid Snake, but the actual Snake appearing fucked it all up"
And a huge huge theme of that game is obfuscation and keeping secrets
I don't see what the stuff with multiple Snakes could possibly add to Phantom Pain
I kind of assumed that any Big Boss game after MGS3 would kind of lose the emotional thread that made that game resonate with me, where it basically suggested that grief and pain warped the sense of justice of a good man into something darker, more sinister
Like I spent years assuming that Outer Heaven was literally a monument to what he thought the Boss's principles would have been, but his love was so fierce and his pain so blinding that he lost his way
I have a feeling that all the BB games since then haven't exactly held to that idea
That's actually kind of exactly what Peace Walker does?
The main thing motivating Big Boss in that game is even the slightest chance of seeing The Boss again, even if it turns out to be a created AI
He eventually decides to take what that AI does as an extension of The Boss herself and, in his delusion, decides she is a traitor to the cause of soldiers and makes his plans for MSF and Outer Heaven even crazier
I kind of assumed that any Big Boss game after MGS3 would kind of lose the emotional thread that made that game resonate with me, where it basically suggested that grief and pain warped the sense of justice of a good man into something darker, more sinister
Like I spent years assuming that Outer Heaven was literally a monument to what he thought the Boss's principles would have been, but his love was so fierce and his pain so blinding that he lost his way
I have a feeling that all the BB games since then haven't exactly held to that idea
That's actually kind of exactly what Peace Walker does?
The main thing motivating Big Boss in that game is even the slightest chance of seeing The Boss again, even if it turns out to be a created AI
He eventually decides to take what that AI does as an extension of The Boss herself and, in his delusion, decides she is a traitor to the cause of soldiers and makes his plans for MSF and Outer Heaven even crazier
This may be the most distasteful plot summary I've read in the past day
MGS2's "crazy ending nobody understands" boils down to "there's a shadow government running America, Solidus is trying to destroy it, also the entire Big Shell incident was an operation recreating Shadow Moses to try and see if the Patriots can create their own soldier on the level of Solid Snake, but the actual Snake appearing fucked it all up"
And a huge huge theme of that game is obfuscation and keeping secrets
I don't see what the stuff with multiple Snakes could possibly add to Phantom Pain
I too don't know how it could have anything to do with tpp. Almost as if it hasn't been released yet....
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miscellaneousinsanitygrass grows, birds fly, sun shines,and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered Userregular
I think you're misrepresenting what happened a liiittle bit
Continued in spoilers cos wyborn hasn't played PW I guess
Snake decided to take the mission from Zadornov because the Boss may have been alive in Costa Rica, yes
But he was never 'deluded' by the AI, he was certainly thoroughly shaken by being confronted by such a traumatic part of his past but it's not like the Boss AI was actually the continuing consciousness of the Boss
It's though the AIs actions at the end that Snake and Strangelove come to understand why the Boss did what she did but that's not the same thing
copyin this part from the wiki
Huey deduced that, in a similar function to the human brain, Peace Walker must have used functional compensation to take over its tasks, as a result of the Mammal and Reptile Pods essentially acting as one. Strangelove wondered if her memories remained in her through the song. Huey then mentioned that it was not thinking clearly, and was instead using its heart. Miller then stated that The Boss's innocence had been proven, and requested for Snake to listen to her song. Strangelove then realized and understood why The Boss had done what she did ten years ago: when she went into space as part of the Mercury Project, she saw a beauty other than war. She put down her gun and instead chose to sing. They would all hear her singing, and she sacrificed everything to have her will live on. She couldn't achieve it, but she still sang, hoping for the illusion called peace that could not be found. Snake, after mirroring his salute ten years ago at The Boss's grave, then removed his bandana, where it was lost to the wind.
At the end of it, Snake concludes in hindsight that the Boss let herself die and that act was a betrayal of her beliefs and takes that as a rejection of even himself http://youtu.be/JqQO1MAltJU
I find this part as powerful as the end of snake eater, it adds an even further dimension to the tragedy and also shows us how, even as devoted as they were to the Boss, Big Boss and Zero could take such stark reactions in different directions
It's this decision that really hits hard when you arrive back at the graveyard in 4
Outer Heaven is only one RACE participating in the false spiral of REVENGE, multiple snakes operating in different factions and opposing each other in multiplayer allows MGSV to focus down on RACE just as MGS3 focused down on SCENE by giving Naked Snake similar GENE and MEME to Solid Snake
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miscellaneousinsanitygrass grows, birds fly, sun shines,and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered Userregular
@Wyborn you can read the above spoilers if you're not going to play PW I guess but it really does hit on all the points you're suggesting, it's my favorite mgs since 3
Outer Heaven is only one RACE participating in the false spiral of REVENGE, multiple snakes operating in different factions and opposing each other in multiplayer allows MGSV to focus down on RACE just as MGS3 focused down on SCENE by giving Naked Snake similar GENE and MEME to Solid Snake
let us define RACE as a group organized around common GENE andor MEME, the identity of which can be altered by SCENE, SENSE, and PEACE
remember that Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land weren't just mercenary groups, they were nations, Big Boss was trying to form a new ethnic group, a RACE if you will, populated by soldiers
why would anyone want to make another Snake? Well, Zero wants to build up Big Boss as the culture hero of the Cipher RACE. It's why the twins and solidus were made in the first place. but they're an investment in the future, Cipher needs someone now.
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miscellaneousinsanitygrass grows, birds fly, sun shines,and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered Userregular
I can't tell, are people actually getting upset at the idea of convoluted bullshit in a metal gear thread?
Not convoluted bullshit in principle, no, but specifically I'm getting annoyed by the idea that it's not Big Boss you're playing as, and specifically the idea that it might be another soldier who thinks he's BB
Big Boss is the one I am emotionally invested in; I care about his story and what happens to and around him and what decisions he makes. That's what I want to see and it's why I've been so excited for this game
If it's some other jagoff then why should I give a shit
all the big RACEs of metal gear are built on MEMEs mutated from the Boss' SENSE, and as such they all want to claim ownership of her inheritor, Big Boss
Les Enfants Terribles are attempts to replicate GENE
Punished Snake and Venom Snake are attempts to replicate SENSE
perhaps this will be the incident by which Zero recognizes the futility of replicating SENSE and decides to instead go with AIs, who exist to replicate MEME and create a stable SCENE that is the war economy, which maintains PEACE through war, controlling the false spiral of REVENGE by depriving it of any emotion or meaning
i think there's been way too much about fakes and decoys and copies in the stuff that's been dropped about TPP for there not to be something up with that thematically
kojima has talked about how frustrating it is to write a story where everybody already knows the ending, and I think he's going to make sure that he takes the most convoluted path possible to keep people on their toes
I can't tell, are people actually getting upset at the idea of convoluted bullshit in a metal gear thread?
Not convoluted bullshit in principle, no, but specifically I'm getting annoyed by the idea that it's not Big Boss you're playing as, and specifically the idea that it might be another soldier who thinks he's BB
Big Boss is the one I am emotionally invested in; I care about his story and what happens to and around him and what decisions he makes. That's what I want to see and it's why I've been so excited for this game
If it's some other jagoff then why should I give a shit
my personal guess is that the game is going to subtly shift your perspective between the two snakes without cluing you into it, in such a way that the story starts to come unraveled until the big reveal, and then going back and replaying it will make things make a lot more sense
so you ARE playing as big boss, you're just also playing as a doppleganger
I can't tell, are people actually getting upset at the idea of convoluted bullshit in a metal gear thread?
Not convoluted bullshit in principle, no, but specifically I'm getting annoyed by the idea that it's not Big Boss you're playing as, and specifically the idea that it might be another soldier who thinks he's BB
Big Boss is the one I am emotionally invested in; I care about his story and what happens to and around him and what decisions he makes. That's what I want to see and it's why I've been so excited for this game
If it's some other jagoff then why should I give a shit
my personal guess is that the game is going to subtly shift your perspective between the two snakes without cluing you into it, in such a way that the story starts to come unraveled until the big reveal, and then going back and replaying it will make things make a lot more sense
so you ARE playing as big boss, you're just also playing as a doppleganger
I hadn't seen this concept art before, but it's right there on Game Informer's MGSV page
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I don't know why I react so violently to this idea but I totally fucking hate it
How about it's a game about Big Boss being driven to evil in a quest for blind revenge
What's wrong with that
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Too simple.
Gotta dream big.
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Are you saying Liquid Snake is definitely part of the story for MGSV: The Phantom Pain??
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Well actually yes
Like I spent years assuming that Outer Heaven was literally a monument to what he thought the Boss's principles would have been, but his love was so fierce and his pain so blinding that he lost his way
I have a feeling that all the BB games since then haven't exactly held to that idea
MGS2's "crazy ending nobody understands" boils down to "there's a shadow government running America, Solidus is trying to destroy it, also the entire Big Shell incident was an operation recreating Shadow Moses to try and see if the Patriots can create their own soldier on the level of Solid Snake, but the actual Snake appearing fucked it all up"
And a huge huge theme of that game is obfuscation and keeping secrets
I don't see what the stuff with multiple Snakes could possibly add to Phantom Pain
That's actually kind of exactly what Peace Walker does?
The main thing motivating Big Boss in that game is even the slightest chance of seeing The Boss again, even if it turns out to be a created AI
He eventually decides to take what that AI does as an extension of The Boss herself and, in his delusion, decides she is a traitor to the cause of soldiers and makes his plans for MSF and Outer Heaven even crazier
This may be the most distasteful plot summary I've read in the past day
I too don't know how it could have anything to do with tpp. Almost as if it hasn't been released yet....
Continued in spoilers cos wyborn hasn't played PW I guess
But he was never 'deluded' by the AI, he was certainly thoroughly shaken by being confronted by such a traumatic part of his past but it's not like the Boss AI was actually the continuing consciousness of the Boss
It's though the AIs actions at the end that Snake and Strangelove come to understand why the Boss did what she did but that's not the same thing
copyin this part from the wiki
At the end of it, Snake concludes in hindsight that the Boss let herself die and that act was a betrayal of her beliefs and takes that as a rejection of even himself
I find this part as powerful as the end of snake eater, it adds an even further dimension to the tragedy and also shows us how, even as devoted as they were to the Boss, Big Boss and Zero could take such stark reactions in different directions
It's this decision that really hits hard when you arrive back at the graveyard in 4
Peace Walker and MGSV only exist because Kojima really really wanted to not only overwrite portable ops but prevent any sequels to it
I hate you so much
Other than, 'Big Boss founded Outer Heaven, and had a Metal Gear, and he was thwarted by Solid Snake', anything could be retconned.
LIQUID!!!
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remember that Outer Heaven and Zanzibar Land weren't just mercenary groups, they were nations, Big Boss was trying to form a new ethnic group, a RACE if you will, populated by soldiers
My theory: literal fangs
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he's in a desert
Come now Tal that's far too sensible a reason, it has to be something secret and convoluted and bullshit
the sand is actually nanomachines
bullshit
this kind of convoluted bullshit is NOT the kind of convoluted bullshit that i like!!
Not convoluted bullshit in principle, no, but specifically I'm getting annoyed by the idea that it's not Big Boss you're playing as, and specifically the idea that it might be another soldier who thinks he's BB
Big Boss is the one I am emotionally invested in; I care about his story and what happens to and around him and what decisions he makes. That's what I want to see and it's why I've been so excited for this game
If it's some other jagoff then why should I give a shit
i really hope the MG1 bosses are unlockable support characters if they're not part of the story
I wanna be able to deploy Shotgunner and The Machine Gun Kid
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Punished Snake and Venom Snake are attempts to replicate SENSE
perhaps this will be the incident by which Zero recognizes the futility of replicating SENSE and decides to instead go with AIs, who exist to replicate MEME and create a stable SCENE that is the war economy, which maintains PEACE through war, controlling the false spiral of REVENGE by depriving it of any emotion or meaning
kojima has talked about how frustrating it is to write a story where everybody already knows the ending, and I think he's going to make sure that he takes the most convoluted path possible to keep people on their toes
http://www.audioentropy.com/
my personal guess is that the game is going to subtly shift your perspective between the two snakes without cluing you into it, in such a way that the story starts to come unraveled until the big reveal, and then going back and replaying it will make things make a lot more sense
so you ARE playing as big boss, you're just also playing as a doppleganger
http://www.audioentropy.com/
My eyes glaze over and suddenly I'm reading the next post.
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MGS3 is the only game where dopplegangers/opposite pairs of characters aren't a major theme
MGS1 has the twin snakes
MGS2 has raiden and solidus both trying to lay claim to the solid snake identity
MGS4 has ocelot literally say "I am liquid's doppleganger," plus the fake out with solidus' corpse and Big Boss
Peace Walker has the AI duplicate of The Boss
http://www.audioentropy.com/
I can't believe you made this post without mentioning Dirty Duck, leader of the terrorist cell 'Egg Plant'
http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Dirty_Duck
I hadn't seen this concept art before, but it's right there on Game Informer's MGSV page
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