I kind of want to go in the Snowden thread, but that is one of the rare topics where I don't even understand the position the other side takes, so I should probably steer clear. I literally do not think you can think he is a whistleblower unless you don't understand what a whistleblower is.
uh huh
I usually see both sides. That is distinct from when I say I don't understand something because I actuelly lack knowledge of it.
Snowden just isn't a whistleblower, by definition. It's a legal concept. He does not satisfy it under any applicable test.
Could the reason for that be mostly semantics to do with the fact that he's tattling on the structure that sets that very definition?
Not rhetorical
He was not. NSA is distinct from the DOJ. DOL protects whistleblowers. So the correct action as a whisteblower is to go up the chain of command. If you are not heard all the way up, then you go to DOJ. Of course, he stole the data in the first place and whistleblower rules would not protect him from that because it was theft and that was illegal, but that he feared prosecution for a felony he committed doesn't somehow make him a whistleblower.
I have probably a decent grasp on the NSA and DOJ being different entities, but they're largely part of the same machine. It seems to me there's a fairly unified front at the federal level in favor of the ridiculous amount of fucked up surveillance that's been happening for the last 10 years. Not that a vast conspiracy or centralized corruption is at work or anything, but that it makes a lot of people's jobs easier and the people who might otherwise A: think that it is a massive overstep not worth the dubiously purported safety, and/or B: Could at least reasonably agree it's not a necessity, are motivated by a fucked up political climate that dissuades people from taking a step back from the war on terror.
Basically, while you are most assuredly right in that he's not technically a whistleblower, I don't have a lot of faith that a bona fide whistleblower could get an inch of traction in this climate. I would not be surprised to find that someone making that move would as likely land quietly in a supermax as on the front page of The Guardian.
1 - Hypothetical self-interest is not sufficient justification for violation of the law. That's a fundamental concept in Civil Disobedience.
2 - Whistleblowing covers revelation of violations of law. The vast majority of what Snowden revealed was not a violation of the law, just what he thought was the correct policy. Even the subset of activities he identified that were in violation of the law were so vague as to make actions to bring wrongdoers to justice or rectify policies impossible. "Some" people were listening to things without authority. "Some" justifications were fabricated.
Whistleblowing doesn't cover revelation of classified activities you think are bad, just ones that are illegal.
So he went over the head of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and of the President of the United States, directly to the American People.
Unorthodox, but I'll allow it.
This is not particularly coherent considering the NSA is not included in that organizational chart. The NSA is not part of the DoD proper. (Ed the NSA reports to the Director of National Intelligence who reports directly to the PotUS and sits on the NSC)
Its also the equivalent of telling a cop "I pay your salary!"
So apparently Putin hasn't been seen officially for a week and now there's rampant speculation about him being dead etc.
That says a lot about how Russia works. I wonder what kind of insane power struggles there will be when Putin kicks the bucket.
He did just totally murder the opposition leader. Wouldn't surprise me if he's in hiding
One article claims that the murder is a power struggle between FSB and the pro-Putin Chechen leader, and he's in hiding until he decides how to deal with that.
+1
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
I kind of want to go in the Snowden thread, but that is one of the rare topics where I don't even understand the position the other side takes, so I should probably steer clear. I literally do not think you can think he is a whistleblower unless you don't understand what a whistleblower is.
uh huh
I usually see both sides. That is distinct from when I say I don't understand something because I actuelly lack knowledge of it.
Snowden just isn't a whistleblower, by definition. It's a legal concept. He does not satisfy it under any applicable test.
Could the reason for that be mostly semantics to do with the fact that he's tattling on the structure that sets that very definition?
Not rhetorical
He was not. NSA is distinct from the DOJ. DOL protects whistleblowers. So the correct action as a whisteblower is to go up the chain of command. If you are not heard all the way up, then you go to DOJ. Of course, he stole the data in the first place and whistleblower rules would not protect him from that because it was theft and that was illegal, but that he feared prosecution for a felony he committed doesn't somehow make him a whistleblower.
I have probably a decent grasp on the NSA and DOJ being different entities, but they're largely part of the same machine. It seems to me there's a fairly unified front at the federal level in favor of the ridiculous amount of fucked up surveillance that's been happening for the last 10 years. Not that a vast conspiracy or centralized corruption is at work or anything, but that it makes a lot of people's jobs easier and the people who might otherwise A: think that it is a massive overstep not worth the dubiously purported safety, and/or B: Could at least reasonably agree it's not a necessity, are motivated by a fucked up political climate that dissuades people from taking a step back from the war on terror.
Basically, while you are most assuredly right in that he's not technically a whistleblower, I don't have a lot of faith that a bona fide whistleblower could get an inch of traction in this climate. I would not be surprised to find that someone making that move would as likely land quietly in a supermax as on the front page of The Guardian.
I kind of want to go in the Snowden thread, but that is one of the rare topics where I don't even understand the position the other side takes, so I should probably steer clear. I literally do not think you can think he is a whistleblower unless you don't understand what a whistleblower is.
uh huh
I usually see both sides. That is distinct from when I say I don't understand something because I actuelly lack knowledge of it.
Snowden just isn't a whistleblower, by definition. It's a legal concept. He does not satisfy it under any applicable test.
Could the reason for that be mostly semantics to do with the fact that he's tattling on the structure that sets that very definition?
Not rhetorical
He was not. NSA is distinct from the DOJ. DOL protects whistleblowers. So the correct action as a whisteblower is to go up the chain of command. If you are not heard all the way up, then you go to DOJ. Of course, he stole the data in the first place and whistleblower rules would not protect him from that because it was theft and that was illegal, but that he feared prosecution for a felony he committed doesn't somehow make him a whistleblower.
I have probably a decent grasp on the NSA and DOJ being different entities, but they're largely part of the same machine. It seems to me there's a fairly unified front at the federal level in favor of the ridiculous amount of fucked up surveillance that's been happening for the last 10 years. Not that a vast conspiracy or centralized corruption is at work or anything, but that it makes a lot of people's jobs easier and the people who might otherwise A: think that it is a massive overstep not worth the dubiously purported safety, and/or B: Could at least reasonably agree it's not a necessity, are motivated by a fucked up political climate that dissuades people from taking a step back from the war on terror.
Basically, while you are most assuredly right in that he's not technically a whistleblower, I don't have a lot of faith that a bona fide whistleblower could get an inch of traction in this climate. I would not be surprised to find that someone making that move would as likely land quietly in a supermax as on the front page of The Guardian.
So we agree he isn't a whistleblower, and just disagree as to whether he was right to commit a felony against the US government, release a ton of sensitive data publicly that could have compromised the US's diplomatic relationships and ongoing antiterrorism initiatives and flee justice to our nation's enemies based on his own personal morality. I'm fine with that as the disagreement. I can see that there are two sides, even if I find one very weak.
+1
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Whole lotta Lawful Neutrals all up in this thread.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
+2
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
So he went over the head of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and of the President of the United States, directly to the American People.
Unorthodox, but I'll allow it.
This is not particularly coherent considering the NSA is not included in that organizational chart. The NSA is not part of the DoD proper.
Its also the equivalent of telling a cop "I pay your salary!"
Director of National Intelligence is on the chart.
And it's more akin to telling the cop "I'm going to tell people about this and they will be more able to make an informed choice in the next election".
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Whole lotta Lawful Neutrals all up in this thread.
I'm cool with civil disobedience. But part of that is accepting punishment so that people see how unfair it is that the law demanded you be punished for your actions. If you flee justice you don't get to pull the civil disobedience card.
+1
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Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
Yes, selling a Baa3 rated bond with an 8 year maturity to an elderly investor in poor health who indicated low risk tolerance on all of his account opening forms was totes okay because you disclosed the risks to him and it was within his investment objectives.
*flips table*
that wasn't the only thing in his portfolio, was it?
Oh, of course it was.
But the agent tells me it was suitable so we're okay right?
oh what the fuck
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Whole lotta Lawful Neutrals all up in this thread.
I'm cool with civil disobedience. But part of that is accepting punishment so that people see how unfair it is that the law demanded you be punished for your actions. If you flee justice you don't get to pull the civil disobedience card.
That's insane.
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
+2
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Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
Whole lotta Lawful Neutrals all up in this thread.
I'm cool with civil disobedience. But part of that is accepting punishment so that people see how unfair it is that the law demanded you be punished for your actions. If you flee justice you don't get to pull the civil disobedience card.
That's insane.
No, that is almost the rote definition of civil disobedience.
People do sit ins at the capital, and when the cops come with the handcuffs they allow themselves to be arrested, preferably on camera, just because they were protesting the wages of teachers being cut / unions being dissolved.
Civil disobedience as a form of protest against injustice isn't breaking the law and then fleeing from the cops.
syndalis on
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
+1
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Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
when the government comes for me I give them two scimitars to the face!
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
+3
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Celebrimbor is the great smith of the elves who basically invented binding magic into physical objects
Sauron showed up in his kingdom and was like, what is happening fellow elves? it's a great day to be an elf and not a dark lord amirite?
I have a "make your own golden rings" starter kit, anyone want to play with it? also while you're at it why not bind some magic to them because it's fun to watch other people do that even though I totally know how to do that already
and he watched them make the rings and that's how he figured out how to make magic shit, so he made the one ring in secret to control the other ones (but they need to be tainted? I assume he has to wear them on his dick while he fucks an orc? the elven rings were never tainted)
TLDR:
No, but he did make or help make all of the rings of power except the one ring and he accidentally taught Sauron how to make the one ring
Celebrimbor was tricked by Sauron into forging the Rings of Power. He was from the Ñoldor clan of Elves.
[Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
Scimitar!
Scimitar!
*twirls*
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
+1
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HakkekageSpace Whore Academysumma cum laudeRegistered Userregular
I always get excited when well-known people post in internet comment threads. Like Maurice LaMarche posting in this io9 article about how he was born a whole 4 days earlier than Alec Baldwin, so Alec Baldwin is copying him
No, celebrimbor was a smith dude and sauron was all like, I'm totally not an evil wizard dude lets be BFFs you should make me some sweet sweet rings of power. So celly made the rings cause he thought they were bros but then he realized he was actually an evil wizard after it was too late
The government says "Pay your taxes"
I say "The fuck I will!"
I practice uncivil obedience.
"Here's your fucking taxes."
[Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
Getting mired in discussions of one man's character or the legal definitions of whistle blowing and civil disobedience is 100% missing the issue and failing to have the much more important conversation about the supra-legal and self-interested intelligence apparatus fyi hth
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simonwolfi can feel a differencetoday, a differenceRegistered Userregular
Whenever I hear LotR summaries I get the urge to say "gesundheit" every other sentence
No, that is almost the rote definition of civil disobedience.
People do sit ins at the capital, and when the cops come with the handcuffs they allow themselves to be arrested, preferably on camera, just because they were protesting the wages of teachers being cut / unions being dissolved.
Civil disobedience as a form of protest against injustice isn't breaking the law and then fleeing from the cops.
Again, Lawful Neutrals.
Getting arrested doesn't change the legitimacy of the complaint. It only affects how you get to be perceived as a martyr, dependent upon the the media being compliant with your point.
The problem of the NSA harvesting huge amounts of data with no public oversight is not made any more or less legitimate by whether Snowden spends the rest of his life in a cell without a door.
So apparently Putin hasn't been seen officially for a week and now there's rampant speculation about him being dead etc.
That says a lot about how Russia works. I wonder what kind of insane power struggles there will be when Putin kicks the bucket.
He did just totally murder the opposition leader. Wouldn't surprise me if he's in hiding
A lot of people think it wasn't him.
Solely based on the fact that it doesn't really benefit him; you would have to look very hard for someone who would honestly claim that they thought Putin wouldn't have people in his way killed.
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Sir Landsharkresting shark faceRegistered Userregular
edited March 2015
literally the only fantasy novels I ever got my wife to read were the Drizz't books
and then later the...Lilith beanre? (some young drow wizard) spinoff series that my wife maybe identified a bit too closely with
Sir Landshark on
Please consider the environment before printing this post.
Posts
1 - Hypothetical self-interest is not sufficient justification for violation of the law. That's a fundamental concept in Civil Disobedience.
2 - Whistleblowing covers revelation of violations of law. The vast majority of what Snowden revealed was not a violation of the law, just what he thought was the correct policy. Even the subset of activities he identified that were in violation of the law were so vague as to make actions to bring wrongdoers to justice or rectify policies impossible. "Some" people were listening to things without authority. "Some" justifications were fabricated.
Whistleblowing doesn't cover revelation of classified activities you think are bad, just ones that are illegal.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
yeah they lost their step a bit, but I still like it enough that I'm excited for season 4
which is really gonna be a movie or a two part miniseries or something
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
as a reputed frog rammer,
twitch.tv/tehsloth
Inflammable means flammable!
although they might get some traction by pointing out he's a foreigner
This is not particularly coherent considering the NSA is not included in that organizational chart. The NSA is not part of the DoD proper. (Ed the NSA reports to the Director of National Intelligence who reports directly to the PotUS and sits on the NSC)
Its also the equivalent of telling a cop "I pay your salary!"
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
One article claims that the murder is a power struggle between FSB and the pro-Putin Chechen leader, and he's in hiding until he decides how to deal with that.
I would be afraid to ask for his birth certificate. Reading it would probably fracture your mind.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
So we agree he isn't a whistleblower, and just disagree as to whether he was right to commit a felony against the US government, release a ton of sensitive data publicly that could have compromised the US's diplomatic relationships and ongoing antiterrorism initiatives and flee justice to our nation's enemies based on his own personal morality. I'm fine with that as the disagreement. I can see that there are two sides, even if I find one very weak.
Director of National Intelligence is on the chart.
And it's more akin to telling the cop "I'm going to tell people about this and they will be more able to make an informed choice in the next election".
I'm cool with civil disobedience. But part of that is accepting punishment so that people see how unfair it is that the law demanded you be punished for your actions. If you flee justice you don't get to pull the civil disobedience card.
oh what the fuck
im chaotic good like drizz't
Scimitar!
Scimitar!
*twirls*
The government says "Pay your taxes"
I say "The fuck I will!"
No, that is almost the rote definition of civil disobedience.
People do sit ins at the capital, and when the cops come with the handcuffs they allow themselves to be arrested, preferably on camera, just because they were protesting the wages of teachers being cut / unions being dissolved.
Civil disobedience as a form of protest against injustice isn't breaking the law and then fleeing from the cops.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Putting bracers of speed on your legs because your hands were fast enough but you gotta go fast is one of my favorite WTF moments in the books.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Nope
Sauron showed up in his kingdom and was like, what is happening fellow elves? it's a great day to be an elf and not a dark lord amirite?
I have a "make your own golden rings" starter kit, anyone want to play with it? also while you're at it why not bind some magic to them because it's fun to watch other people do that even though I totally know how to do that already
and he watched them make the rings and that's how he figured out how to make magic shit, so he made the one ring in secret to control the other ones (but they need to be tainted? I assume he has to wear them on his dick while he fucks an orc? the elven rings were never tainted)
TLDR:
No, but he did make or help make all of the rings of power except the one ring and he accidentally taught Sauron how to make the one ring
Scimitar!
*twirls*
http://io9.com/why-announcers-voices-sound-so-much-different-than-they-1691157484?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=fridayAM
NNID: Hakkekage
um you mean awesome moments
lightning kick!
scimitar!
scimitar!
*twirls*
twitch.tv/tehsloth
And fit really nicely with the ritual at the start.
EDIT: Also, I appreciate the explanations but I accept that Celly is a person and the history and all that. My question was one of deception.
I practice uncivil obedience.
"Here's your fucking taxes."
Getting arrested doesn't change the legitimacy of the complaint. It only affects how you get to be perceived as a martyr, dependent upon the the media being compliant with your point.
The problem of the NSA harvesting huge amounts of data with no public oversight is not made any more or less legitimate by whether Snowden spends the rest of his life in a cell without a door.
A lot of people think it wasn't him.
Solely based on the fact that it doesn't really benefit him; you would have to look very hard for someone who would honestly claim that they thought Putin wouldn't have people in his way killed.
and then later the...Lilith beanre? (some young drow wizard) spinoff series that my wife maybe identified a bit too closely with
He was a contractor but was hired because the NSA asked the contracting company to hire him.
He also had like every clearance you can have. Man had access to all sorts of shit.