Nah. Monica Rambeau, Manifold, Falcon, Luke Cage, Brother Voodoo, War Machine, Nick Fury (if you want to count being inpossible to kill off as a power), Cyborg, Green Lantern, and some others that I can't remember the names to right now are all non-electric.
In the movies there's what, Electro and Static Shock? Static is the only one out of the comics I can think of that's a black guy with electric powers.
Yes, but think of characters with electric powers and note how many are black.
I'm trying really hard not to be snarky here, so I'm just gonna say that your links do not self-evidently support your argument.
I'm going through them and I really don't see an overwhelming amount of black people there.
EDIT: I'm even sitting here with a note pad making ticks in two columns here.
EDIT EDIT: Ok, I will say this much: On the DC side it does start to skew. Some of the bigger names on there all happen to be black people (and seriously, Black Power? What the fuck?). So, as someone who predominantly reads Marvel and has always avoided DC I'm just gonna plead general ignorance there, but I did state from the get go that I know fuckall about DC.
Hollywood has a pretty bad track record with magical black men who somehow improve the life of a white guy. Bagger Vance et. al. Asian mystics are such a hoary trope that even Quentin Tarantino played it straight in Kill Bill: Part 2.
They don't have to play it straight, though. That's a juicy role for any Asian actor to have. They can subvert it in any number of entertaining ways. Write it as a wise mentor who happens to be Asian, not an Asian who happens to be a wise mentor. The MCU's excelled at this when they're motivated. That's why Nick Fury, Falcon and Helen Cho worked.
Neither Fury nor Falcon nor Cho are doing that at all. They are all just characters who happen to be black. There is no stereotype to play in to there.
Exactly, that's why I listed those as positive examples. There's always negative stereotypes for minority actors to play in roles, Marvel simply rose above it and exceeded expectations.
They aren't positive examples though. They are just not examples. They are not playing to or against any stereotypes. It's in no way analogous to the situation being discussed.
Your wise ancient sage who teaches the broken wandering white hero how to harness his inner power is asian because of course (s)he fucking is, they always are cause that's the stereotype.
It's a negative stereotype if it's written that way, hiring an Asian actor doesn't mean they have to do that anymore than having a black actor for Nick Fury means he has to be black negative stereotype. It's on the writers, not the actor - no matter their ethnicity. We know Marvel can do this, and having an Asian actor isn't going to force them to write negative stereotypes. If that was the case Marvel wouldn't touch Luke Cage, not give him a series on Netflix. There's also a dearth of Asian roles in the movie branch, this is their opportunity to give a major role to them.
No, it's a stereotype by it's very existence. The character itself, the entire setup, is the stereotype. The wise asian mentor is the stereotype.
Your Nick Fury analogy, I will repeat again, does not make any sense. You could make him stereotypical by piling a bunch of black stereotypes on his character, but the role itself (black spy organization leader) is not a stereotype so there's no stereotype to play into or avoid just by making Nick Fury black.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Nah. Monica Rambeau, Manifold, Falcon, Luke Cage, Brother Voodoo, War Machine, Nick Fury (if you want to count being inpossible to kill off as a power), Cyborg, Green Lantern, and some others that I can't remember the names to right now are all non-electric.
In the movies there's what, Electro and Static Shock? Static is the only one out of the comics I can think of that's a black guy with electric powers.
Yes, but think of characters with electric powers and note how many are black.
I'm trying really hard not to be snarky here, so I'm just gonna say that your links do not self-evidently support your argument.
I'm going through them and I really don't see an overwhelming amount of black people there.
EDIT: I'm even sitting here with a note pad making ticks in two columns here.
EDIT EDIT: Ok, I will say this much: On the DC side it does start to skew. Some of the bigger names on there all happen to be black people (and seriously, Black Power? What the fuck?). So, as someone who predominantly reads Marvel and has always avoided DC I'm just gonna plead general ignorance there, but I did state from the get go that I know fuckall about DC.
I'm convinced that Nick Fury is black because "Wooo, it's the Ultimate Universe, let's do something different!" (then was shortly afterwards modeled after SLJ, so when it came time to do the movies it was 'We pretty much have to'). Which isn't a bad thing and they could have easily gone way overboard and stereotype him, but they didn't. Actually with the movies they might be creating a "black spymaster" trope, but it will be a while before we know if that is the case and I really hope it isn't.
I'm actually curious, since the Internet was much, much younger but still very much a thing when the Ultimate universe started what was the fan reaction to Fury being black? I don't remember anything when Iron Man came out because, see above.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Initially Nick Fury was white in the Ultimate Universe for one issue (Ultimate Marvel Team Up), then he was black in Ultimate X-Men but looked more like Will Smith, then he turned into Samuel L Jackson in Ultimates.
People were more WTF about the constant changes, even then it wasn't a big deal because the Ultimate Universe meant anyone can be anything.
The tv shows are, somewhat appropriately given the history of the material they're going over specifically, much better than the movies about diversity.
I'm not super cool with giving out roles that are established in the comics as being minorities to white actors, but at the same time I'd hate to keep seeing the only minority actors in the films be those in a specific role that called for it.
As the universe expands they need to be taking the opportunity to cast more underrepresented groups in roles that aren't defined by their race. Falcon would be a good start if he weren't already black in the comics.
I'm convinced that Nick Fury is black because "Wooo, it's the Ultimate Universe, let's do something different!" (then was shortly afterwards modeled after SLJ, so when it came time to do the movies it was 'We pretty much have to').
Pretty sure SLJ heard about the homage and called Marvel up saying "Call me if you do a movie with him"
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I thought it was originally a joke thing Favreau did because he's a comic book guy, told Jackson "hey, do this little easter egg for this movie I'm making, one day of work, because the character is modeled on your likeness."
And then Iron Man made lots of money, a franchise was realized, so they snatched him up.
I'm convinced that Nick Fury is black because "Wooo, it's the Ultimate Universe, let's do something different!" (then was shortly afterwards modeled after SLJ, so when it came time to do the movies it was 'We pretty much have to').
Pretty sure SLJ heard about the homage and called Marvel up saying "Call me if you do a movie with him"
Actually, IIRC the way it went was that Marvel called SLJ and asked if they could use is likeness for Ultimate Nick Fury, and SLJ's response was, "Only if I get to play him."
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Psychotic OneThe Lord of No PantsParts UnknownRegistered Userregular
If they ever introduce Death into Deadpool I hope they just go looney tunes like they did in the video game
Nah. Monica Rambeau, Manifold, Falcon, Luke Cage, Brother Voodoo, War Machine, Nick Fury (if you want to count being inpossible to kill off as a power), Cyborg, Green Lantern, and some others that I can't remember the names to right now are all non-electric.
In the movies there's what, Electro and Static Shock? Static is the only one out of the comics I can think of that's a black guy with electric powers.
Yes, but think of characters with electric powers and note how many are black.
I'm trying really hard not to be snarky here, so I'm just gonna say that your links do not self-evidently support your argument.
I'm going through them and I really don't see an overwhelming amount of black people there.
EDIT: I'm even sitting here with a note pad making ticks in two columns here.
EDIT EDIT: Ok, I will say this much: On the DC side it does start to skew. Some of the bigger names on there all happen to be black people (and seriously, Black Power? What the fuck?). So, as someone who predominantly reads Marvel and has always avoided DC I'm just gonna plead general ignorance there, but I did state from the get go that I know fuckall about DC.
Skew as in 50-50, or skew in terms of the proportion of black characters, period? What was your final count?
Is there a stereotype about black people stealing electricity or something I don't know about that even prompted this tangent?
Rumor has it that Jaden Smith is going to play Static Shock. Which started this tangent. Jamie Fox played Electro in the last Spider-man movie, which probably makes it stand out as fresh in everyone's mind.
They aren't positive examples though. They are just not examples. They are not playing to or against any stereotypes. It's in no way analogous to the situation being discussed.
They're positive examples of minorities in roles Marvel has made.
No, it's a stereotype by it's very existence. The character itself, the entire setup, is the stereotype. The wise asian mentor is the stereotype.
It is a stereotype, what it doesn't have to be is a bad stereotype. Unless I'm mistaken what you're suggesting is a complete ban on Asians being mentors in fiction, which is ridiculous. It also ignores how the MCU has used stereotypes in their productions. May has this position to Skye in AoS season 2, white businessmen being bad guys in the Iron Man movies has been done 3 times, Raza is a Middle Eastern stereotype, Skye being a genius with computers was a stereotype for smart Asians in season 1, Helen Cho is a smart Asian stereotype - if she was a mentor to an Avenger in the movie would that ok with you?
Movies with acclaimed Asian mentors.
George Lucas originally planned to hire Toshiro Mifune for Obi-Wan Kenobi in A New Hope.
Nikita, played by Maggie Q, is a mentor to a young spy in the series of the same title. It's a great series and their relationship partially drives the series. It's engaging story telling.
Your Nick Fury analogy, I will repeat again, does not make any sense. You could make him stereotypical by piling a bunch of black stereotypes on his character, but the role itself (black spy organization leader) is not a stereotype so there's no stereotype to play into or avoid just by making Nick Fury black.
Marvel's been utilizing stereotypes in their movies since Iron Man. They're giving Luke Cage, a black stereotype, a tv show on Netflix. Danny Rand is a negative stereotype and he's getting a tv show as well. It's not about stereotypes which is a problem, or rather as much of a problem as you're suggesting. It's negative stereotypes, which are simple to avoid if the writers know what they're doing - a stereotype doesn't become bad because of an actor's ethnicity. You're ignoring the fact they can change the role to fit the movie if they want, and they probably will for Swinton - and she'll be totally amazing in the part. All they need to do is repeat that process with an Asian actor and the problem solves itself. The Ancient One won't turn into a negative stereotype if they had cast an Asian actor, that's not how bad stereotypes are created. It's about how the writing executes a stereotype that makes it bad, the actor being a specific ethnicity isn't the only consideration for that to occur in a movie. Marvel know what they're doing and they do it well. This would be a walk in the park to solve for them - that's how great they are at writing their characters.
What's your stance on Luke Cage's tv show? Or Luke Cage in general, as he's a character associated with black stereotypes since his inception.
Nick Fury is a black stereotype - he's an angry black man.
They aren't positive examples though. They are just not examples. They are not playing to or against any stereotypes. It's in no way analogous to the situation being discussed.
They're positive examples of minorities in roles Marvel has made.
No, it's a stereotype by it's very existence. The character itself, the entire setup, is the stereotype. The wise asian mentor is the stereotype.
It is a stereotype, what it doesn't have to be is a bad stereotype. Unless I'm mistaken what you're suggesting is a complete ban on Asians being mentors in fiction, which is ridiculous. It also ignores how the MCU has used stereotypes in their productions. May has this position to Skye in AoS season 2, white businessmen being bad guys in the Iron Man movies has been done 3 times, Raza is a Middle Eastern stereotype, Skye being a genius with computers was a stereotype for smart Asians in season 1, Helen Cho is a smart Asian stereotype - if she was a mentor to an Avenger in the movie would that ok with you?
Movies with acclaimed Asian mentors.
George Lucas originally planned to hire Toshiro Mifune for Obi-Wan Kenobi in A New Hope.
Nikita, played by Maggie Q, is a mentor to a young spy in the series of the same title. It's a great series and their relationship partially drives the series. It's engaging story telling.
Your Nick Fury analogy, I will repeat again, does not make any sense. You could make him stereotypical by piling a bunch of black stereotypes on his character, but the role itself (black spy organization leader) is not a stereotype so there's no stereotype to play into or avoid just by making Nick Fury black.
Marvel's been utilizing stereotypes in their movies since Iron Man. They're giving Luke Cage, a black stereotype, a tv show on Netflix. Danny Rand is a negative stereotype and he's getting a tv show as well. It's not about stereotypes which is a problem, or rather as much of a problem as you're suggesting. It's negative stereotypes, which are simple to avoid if the writers know what they're doing - a stereotype doesn't become bad because of an actor's ethnicity. You're ignoring the fact they can change the role to fit the movie if they want, and they probably will for Swinton - and she'll be totally amazing in the part. All they need to do is repeat that process with an Asian actor and the problem solves itself. The Ancient One won't turn into a negative stereotype if they had cast an Asian actor, that's not how bad stereotypes are created. It's about how the writing executes a stereotype that makes it bad, the actor being a specific ethnicity isn't the only consideration for that to occur in a movie. Marvel know what they're doing and they do it well. This would be a walk in the park to solve for them - that's how great they are at writing their characters.
What's your stance on Luke Cage's tv show? Or Luke Cage in general, as he's a character associated with black stereotypes since his inception.
Nick Fury is a black stereotype - he's an angry black man.
Nick Cage Fury is not an angry black man. Holy fuck man that is a kinda racist thing to say frankly. Seriously dude, you've descended to the level of calling Nick Fury an angry black man to try and make your obliviousness continue.
And Iron Fist especially will have to be handled very very carefully for the exact reason I'm talking about. Because his whole comic story is hella racist stereotyping going on. It's actually the exact same stereotype in fact. Just from the other side.
"Black guy running a spy agency" is not a stereotype. "Badass asian secret agent" is not a stereotype. ("Badass secret agent" is though)
"Old asian mystic teaches white man ancient asian secrets so he becomes an uber-badass" is a huge racially-charged stereotype. So is "Magical Negro". Both are things you really wanna avoid or have to use very very carefully to not come off looking like an idiot.
That's why casting the Ancient One is a big problem for Marvel. Just like casting the Mandarin would be. Cause both are hella fucking racist characters from back when comics were ok with that kinda thing. And Iron Fist's whole story is a fucking minefield of this shit.
You are being obtuse about this for really inexplicable reasons. Ancient asian mentor is a super super common stereotype.
Nick Cage is not an angry black man. Holy fuck man that is a kinda racist thing to say frankly. Seriously dude, you've descended to the level of calling Nick Fury an angry black man to try and make your obliviousness continue.
Then I apologize profusely and retract it immediately.
And Iron Fist especially will have to be handled very very carefully for the exact reason I'm talking about. Because his whole comic story is hella racist stereotyping going on. It's actually the exact same stereotype in fact. Just from the other side.
Agreed. And they're still going through with it anyway.
"Black guy running a spy agency" is not a stereotype. "Badass asian secret agent" is not a stereotype. ("Badass secret agent" is though)
The stereotype you've been arguing against is Asian mentors, and I've given you examples used by Marvel and others and other stereotypes they've had in the MCU which have been either positive or neutral results. May becoming Skye's mentor and Nikita did for Alex didn't cause a blip on any radar as far as I know. Not to mention negative stereotypes like Raza.
"Old asian mystic teaches white man ancient asian secrets so he becomes an uber-badass" is a huge racially-charged stereotype. So is "Magical Negro". Both are things you really wanna avoid or have to use very very carefully to not come off looking like an idiot.
Which has been my stance from the beginning. They've also gone ahead with stereotypes in the movies and the tv shows by doing this properly.
That's why casting the Ancient One is a big problem for Marvel. Just like casting the Mandarin would be. Cause both are hella fucking racist characters from back when comics were ok with that kinda thing.
I agree this has been a big problem for Marvel. I disagree that Mandarin was unsalvageable, he didn't stop evolving in the comics from those racist depictions as well as other problematic characters - like Luke Cage (as well the fact they can evolve Mandarin further to be less problematic - which they did do, it just wasn't the only way they could get a positive result with the character). They have to be careful with Black Panther too about this. And they still green lit his movie.
And Iron Fist's whole story is a fucking minefield of this shit.
Agreed.
You are being obtuse about this for really inexplicable reasons. Ancient asian mentor is a super super common stereotype.
Which is why they have to be careful with it and I understand why they'd rather cast Tilda than risk this blowing up in their face. I'm being obtuse because when I've shown positive examples which show this wouldn't be the first time Marvel's done this with the MCU and gotten great results. They've used all sorts of negative and positive stereotypes in their movies and tv shows. Especially since they have the option to go anywhere they want with Ancient One: it could be a mantle rather than a single person or a cosmic entity or whatever and succeed with an Asian actor in such a role. Sure, they need to be extra careful with that cast then any other ethnity, but it's not impossible. A negative stereotype isn't negative entirely on the actor's ethnicity, it's various things in the performance that reinforce that stereotype into problematic quarters. Have you seen AoS season 2? They have an ancient Asian mentor on that for Skye.
May becoming her mentor didn't make her a negative stereotype ether. So if they cast an Asian actor as the Ancient One it won't be the first time they've done it in the MCU, and that got a positive reaction from the audience.
AoS seaosn 2 spoiler
She ended up being a bad guy and wanted to destroy SHIELD and anyone in her path to protect the Inhumans.
edit: Daredevil negative stereotypes
Madame Gao, an elderly K'un Lun Chinese lady who was implied to be Fisk's mentor, leader of the Triads in NYC and knocked DD for a loop with martial arts. Nobu was a hot-blooded Japanese ninja from the Hand. Anatoly & Vladimir Ranskahov were Russian gangsters who did human trafficking - an early episode DD had to rescue a child from them. Ben Urich, the only black main cast member (Rosario wasn't in the whole season) was the only main cast member murdered.
Nick Cage is not an angry black man. Holy fuck man that is a kinda racist thing to say frankly. Seriously dude, you've descended to the level of calling Nick Fury an angry black man to try and make your obliviousness continue.
Then I apologize profusely and retract it immediately.
And Iron Fist especially will have to be handled very very carefully for the exact reason I'm talking about. Because his whole comic story is hella racist stereotyping going on. It's actually the exact same stereotype in fact. Just from the other side.
Agreed. And they're still going through with it anyway.
"Black guy running a spy agency" is not a stereotype. "Badass asian secret agent" is not a stereotype. ("Badass secret agent" is though)
The stereotype you've been arguing against is Asian mentors, and I've given you examples used by Marvel and others and other stereotypes they've had in the MCU which have been either positive or neutral results. May becoming Skye's mentor and Nikita did for Alex didn't cause a blip on any radar as far as I know. Not to mention negative stereotypes like Raza.
No, you haven't. Your examples are not racially-based stereotypes. This is the fundamental issue with your whole argument. You don't seem to know when a stereotype is being used or avoided. Your examples do not match what you are claiming they are. Just the fact that you keep bringing up Skye and May kinda indicates you don't really get what the ancient asian mystic stereotype is. You keep saying "they've done it well before" but your examples are not actually examples of that happening.
To go back to the original point, they would have alot of trouble playing the Ancient One as he's depicted in the comics straight. And they likely know it which is why they avoided it all together.
Iron Fist is gonna be interesting to see what they do. I've seen many calls to make the hero himself an asian-american which ... kinda side-steps the issue but then lands you in a completely different one.
They could use alot more racially diverse casting in the MCU but you also run into exactly the same type of issues if you start playing the rather racist origin stories or what have you of some of these characters that were created many decades ago straight and go with the racial stereotype casting.
The problem isn't with an "Asian mentor," it's specifically the image of the elderly Asian male, possibly Fu Manchu-inspired, who sits there dropping wisdom like it's E at a rave. The AoS examples you gave are beautiful Asian ladies. Skye's mom doesn't even look old enough to have Skye as a daughter. Agent May is uncannily young-looking.
Marvel's been pretty good at subverting stereotypes. I would gladly give up an Asian role for The Ancient One if it meant more diversity overall. Maybe get some better roles for Sakarrans. Like, there's more to them than just being "paper people," Marvel. Christ.
Daredevil had a mystical Asian mentor with Madame Gao and her portrayal was good. She did have some proverbs and "wise saying" but she was played and written to be very low key and disarming. Plus,
she was the evil version of the mentor and used her influence to turn Fisk towards the dark side.
And seriously if you're telling me that the only person who can play an old asian man is Tilda Swinton in heavy makeup then fuck you, because if anything one of the only things Western cinema has allowed asian men to do is play wise old mystics. If you're going to change the role and give it to her, then get rid of the asian component altogether. And give one of the nominally non-asian roles to an asian, while you're at it. (Because fuck you.)
Man, if only Mako Iwamatsu was still alive. That man should get all the roles.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
And Iron Fist's whole story is a fucking minefield of this shit.
Dany Rand is a second generation citizen of Kun Lun, which isn't an ancient asian city, but an alien race.
I can't believe you'd actually try and argue this when Iron Fist is explicitly based off Kung-Fu cinema and involves a guy gaining mystic powers by finding an ancient hidden city in Tibet.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
And Iron Fist's whole story is a fucking minefield of this shit.
Dany Rand is a second generation citizen of Kun Lun, which isn't an ancient asian city, but an alien race.
I can't believe you'd actually try and argue this when Iron Fist is explicitly based off Kung-Fu cinema and involves a guy gaining mystic powers by finding an ancient hidden city in Tibet.
The city isn't in Tibet when he gains his abilities, it doesn't settle in Tibet until much later when Danny forces it to be perminently in Tibet, until that time K'un-Lun only had an entrance to the dimension it resided within in Tibet every 10 years.
Yeah, it's based on Kung-fu films, which are based on Wuxia novels. But kung-fu film isn't Wuxia, and Iron Fist isn't a Kung-fu film.
Additionally, Danny Rand isn't just some white guy who appropriates the K'un-Lun culture. His father was from there and had a life and connection there. Danny Rand grew up there after his father brought him back. It only appears to be the horrible "white ninja" 80s fad if you ignore everything but the least consequential surface details.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
So, Thor is Swedish then? He looks Swedish, or Norwegian, so he must be that right?
He's a hodge-podge of scandinavian stereotypes and myths, yes. This is, like, rather explicit. He's fucking called Thor.
You're confusing appearance with nationality, which is not a good thing.
No, I'm not. I'm not even bringing up nationality, so this doesn't even make sense.
What I am doing is pointing out that these characters are explicitly based on cultural stereotypes and myths and such. You can fucking google it and find the people who made them literally saying this. Your attempting to pretend otherwise is pathetic.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
So, Thor is Swedish then? He looks Swedish, or Norwegian, so he must be that right?
He's a hodge-podge of scandinavian stereotypes and myths, yes. This is, like, rather explicit. He's fucking called Thor.
You're confusing appearance with nationality, which is not a good thing.
No, I'm not. I'm not even bringing up nationality, so this doesn't even make sense.
What I am doing is pointing out that these characters are explicitly based on cultural stereotypes and myths and such. You can fucking google it and find the people who made them literally saying this. Your attempting to pretend otherwise is pathetic.
You're arguing something that's completely tangential to what I was pointing out, and assuming a lot about my half of the argument in order to continue the argument. I think you might want to go back and actually read what I've been saying and what I was originally replying to.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
So, Thor is Swedish then? He looks Swedish, or Norwegian, so he must be that right?
He's a hodge-podge of scandinavian stereotypes and myths, yes. This is, like, rather explicit. He's fucking called Thor.
You're confusing appearance with nationality, which is not a good thing.
No, I'm not. I'm not even bringing up nationality, so this doesn't even make sense.
What I am doing is pointing out that these characters are explicitly based on cultural stereotypes and myths and such. You can fucking google it and find the people who made them literally saying this. Your attempting to pretend otherwise is pathetic.
You're arguing something that's completely tangential to what I was pointing out, and assuming a lot about my half of the argument in order to continue the argument. I think you might want to go back and actually read what I've been saying and what I was originally replying to.
I guess if your original post was completely tangential to the discussion this would be accurate?
If all you meant to say was "technically K'un-Lun is alien, not asian" and not actually comment on the discussion of racial stereotypes that you were responding to?
Which would be really weird since that's, you know, what the conversation was about.
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
edited May 2015
. . . Is there a problem with basing fantasy characters and places on mythical characters and places?
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EDIT: I'm even sitting here with a note pad making ticks in two columns here.
EDIT EDIT: Ok, I will say this much: On the DC side it does start to skew. Some of the bigger names on there all happen to be black people (and seriously, Black Power? What the fuck?). So, as someone who predominantly reads Marvel and has always avoided DC I'm just gonna plead general ignorance there, but I did state from the get go that I know fuckall about DC.
They aren't positive examples though. They are just not examples. They are not playing to or against any stereotypes. It's in no way analogous to the situation being discussed.
No, it's a stereotype by it's very existence. The character itself, the entire setup, is the stereotype. The wise asian mentor is the stereotype.
Your Nick Fury analogy, I will repeat again, does not make any sense. You could make him stereotypical by piling a bunch of black stereotypes on his character, but the role itself (black spy organization leader) is not a stereotype so there's no stereotype to play into or avoid just by making Nick Fury black.
It was really cool that you did this. /thumbsup
I'm actually curious, since the Internet was much, much younger but still very much a thing when the Ultimate universe started what was the fan reaction to Fury being black? I don't remember anything when Iron Man came out because, see above.
People were more WTF about the constant changes, even then it wasn't a big deal because the Ultimate Universe meant anyone can be anything.
I'm not super cool with giving out roles that are established in the comics as being minorities to white actors, but at the same time I'd hate to keep seeing the only minority actors in the films be those in a specific role that called for it.
As the universe expands they need to be taking the opportunity to cast more underrepresented groups in roles that aren't defined by their race. Falcon would be a good start if he weren't already black in the comics.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Pretty sure SLJ heard about the homage and called Marvel up saying "Call me if you do a movie with him"
And then Iron Man made lots of money, a franchise was realized, so they snatched him up.
Actually, IIRC the way it went was that Marvel called SLJ and asked if they could use is likeness for Ultimate Nick Fury, and SLJ's response was, "Only if I get to play him."
Skew as in 50-50, or skew in terms of the proportion of black characters, period? What was your final count?
They're positive examples of minorities in roles Marvel has made.
It is a stereotype, what it doesn't have to be is a bad stereotype. Unless I'm mistaken what you're suggesting is a complete ban on Asians being mentors in fiction, which is ridiculous. It also ignores how the MCU has used stereotypes in their productions. May has this position to Skye in AoS season 2, white businessmen being bad guys in the Iron Man movies has been done 3 times, Raza is a Middle Eastern stereotype, Skye being a genius with computers was a stereotype for smart Asians in season 1, Helen Cho is a smart Asian stereotype - if she was a mentor to an Avenger in the movie would that ok with you?
Movies with acclaimed Asian mentors.
George Lucas originally planned to hire Toshiro Mifune for Obi-Wan Kenobi in A New Hope.
Nikita, played by Maggie Q, is a mentor to a young spy in the series of the same title. It's a great series and their relationship partially drives the series. It's engaging story telling.
Marvel's been utilizing stereotypes in their movies since Iron Man. They're giving Luke Cage, a black stereotype, a tv show on Netflix. Danny Rand is a negative stereotype and he's getting a tv show as well. It's not about stereotypes which is a problem, or rather as much of a problem as you're suggesting. It's negative stereotypes, which are simple to avoid if the writers know what they're doing - a stereotype doesn't become bad because of an actor's ethnicity. You're ignoring the fact they can change the role to fit the movie if they want, and they probably will for Swinton - and she'll be totally amazing in the part. All they need to do is repeat that process with an Asian actor and the problem solves itself. The Ancient One won't turn into a negative stereotype if they had cast an Asian actor, that's not how bad stereotypes are created. It's about how the writing executes a stereotype that makes it bad, the actor being a specific ethnicity isn't the only consideration for that to occur in a movie. Marvel know what they're doing and they do it well. This would be a walk in the park to solve for them - that's how great they are at writing their characters.
What's your stance on Luke Cage's tv show? Or Luke Cage in general, as he's a character associated with black stereotypes since his inception.
Nick Fury is a black stereotype - he's an angry black man.
Marvel Death > DC Death
Nick Cage Fury is not an angry black man. Holy fuck man that is a kinda racist thing to say frankly. Seriously dude, you've descended to the level of calling Nick Fury an angry black man to try and make your obliviousness continue.
And Iron Fist especially will have to be handled very very carefully for the exact reason I'm talking about. Because his whole comic story is hella racist stereotyping going on. It's actually the exact same stereotype in fact. Just from the other side.
"Black guy running a spy agency" is not a stereotype. "Badass asian secret agent" is not a stereotype. ("Badass secret agent" is though)
"Old asian mystic teaches white man ancient asian secrets so he becomes an uber-badass" is a huge racially-charged stereotype. So is "Magical Negro". Both are things you really wanna avoid or have to use very very carefully to not come off looking like an idiot.
That's why casting the Ancient One is a big problem for Marvel. Just like casting the Mandarin would be. Cause both are hella fucking racist characters from back when comics were ok with that kinda thing. And Iron Fist's whole story is a fucking minefield of this shit.
You are being obtuse about this for really inexplicable reasons. Ancient asian mentor is a super super common stereotype.
Well of course not; he's a crazy white man. I'm honestly not even sure why you'd think otherwise.
Then I apologize profusely and retract it immediately.
Agreed. And they're still going through with it anyway.
The stereotype you've been arguing against is Asian mentors, and I've given you examples used by Marvel and others and other stereotypes they've had in the MCU which have been either positive or neutral results. May becoming Skye's mentor and Nikita did for Alex didn't cause a blip on any radar as far as I know. Not to mention negative stereotypes like Raza.
Which has been my stance from the beginning. They've also gone ahead with stereotypes in the movies and the tv shows by doing this properly.
I agree this has been a big problem for Marvel. I disagree that Mandarin was unsalvageable, he didn't stop evolving in the comics from those racist depictions as well as other problematic characters - like Luke Cage (as well the fact they can evolve Mandarin further to be less problematic - which they did do, it just wasn't the only way they could get a positive result with the character). They have to be careful with Black Panther too about this. And they still green lit his movie.
Agreed.
Which is why they have to be careful with it and I understand why they'd rather cast Tilda than risk this blowing up in their face. I'm being obtuse because when I've shown positive examples which show this wouldn't be the first time Marvel's done this with the MCU and gotten great results. They've used all sorts of negative and positive stereotypes in their movies and tv shows. Especially since they have the option to go anywhere they want with Ancient One: it could be a mantle rather than a single person or a cosmic entity or whatever and succeed with an Asian actor in such a role. Sure, they need to be extra careful with that cast then any other ethnity, but it's not impossible. A negative stereotype isn't negative entirely on the actor's ethnicity, it's various things in the performance that reinforce that stereotype into problematic quarters. Have you seen AoS season 2? They have an ancient Asian mentor on that for Skye.
May becoming her mentor didn't make her a negative stereotype ether. So if they cast an Asian actor as the Ancient One it won't be the first time they've done it in the MCU, and that got a positive reaction from the audience.
AoS seaosn 2 spoiler
edit: Daredevil negative stereotypes
You saw nothing!
No, you haven't. Your examples are not racially-based stereotypes. This is the fundamental issue with your whole argument. You don't seem to know when a stereotype is being used or avoided. Your examples do not match what you are claiming they are. Just the fact that you keep bringing up Skye and May kinda indicates you don't really get what the ancient asian mystic stereotype is. You keep saying "they've done it well before" but your examples are not actually examples of that happening.
To go back to the original point, they would have alot of trouble playing the Ancient One as he's depicted in the comics straight. And they likely know it which is why they avoided it all together.
Iron Fist is gonna be interesting to see what they do. I've seen many calls to make the hero himself an asian-american which ... kinda side-steps the issue but then lands you in a completely different one.
They could use alot more racially diverse casting in the MCU but you also run into exactly the same type of issues if you start playing the rather racist origin stories or what have you of some of these characters that were created many decades ago straight and go with the racial stereotype casting.
Marvel's been pretty good at subverting stereotypes. I would gladly give up an Asian role for The Ancient One if it meant more diversity overall. Maybe get some better roles for Sakarrans. Like, there's more to them than just being "paper people," Marvel. Christ.
Man, if only Mako Iwamatsu was still alive. That man should get all the roles.
Dany Rand is a second generation citizen of Kun Lun, which isn't an ancient asian city, but an alien race.
Kun'Lun is literally an ancient Chinese version of heaven.
The Marvel versions aren't aliens. They are just the people who passed through the portal to Kun'Lun at some point and settled it, gaining mystical kung fu powers in the process.
No, Marvel's K'un-Lun is an extradimensional city that was populated by humanoid aliens and worshipped by humans because of it's occasional merger with Earth's dimension.
http://marvel.wikia.com/K'un-Lun
I know that the real Kunlun mountains are what it's based on, but arguing that the population of Marvel's Kunlun are Chinese is like arguing that the population of Asgard is Norwegian.
I can't believe you'd actually try and argue this when Iron Fist is explicitly based off Kung-Fu cinema and involves a guy gaining mystic powers by finding an ancient hidden city in Tibet.
So alien!
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090406045652/marveldatabase/images/3/3a/Immortal_Iron_Fist_Vol_1_24_page_24_K'un-Lun.jpg
Not asian at all!
It's still pretty bad. :-P
So, Thor is Swedish then? He looks Swedish, or Norwegian, so he must be that right?
He's a hodge-podge of scandinavian stereotypes and myths, yes. This is, like, rather explicit. He's fucking called Thor.
The city isn't in Tibet when he gains his abilities, it doesn't settle in Tibet until much later when Danny forces it to be perminently in Tibet, until that time K'un-Lun only had an entrance to the dimension it resided within in Tibet every 10 years.
Yeah, it's based on Kung-fu films, which are based on Wuxia novels. But kung-fu film isn't Wuxia, and Iron Fist isn't a Kung-fu film.
Additionally, Danny Rand isn't just some white guy who appropriates the K'un-Lun culture. His father was from there and had a life and connection there. Danny Rand grew up there after his father brought him back. It only appears to be the horrible "white ninja" 80s fad if you ignore everything but the least consequential surface details.
You're confusing appearance with nationality, which is not a good thing.
No, I'm not. I'm not even bringing up nationality, so this doesn't even make sense.
What I am doing is pointing out that these characters are explicitly based on cultural stereotypes and myths and such. You can fucking google it and find the people who made them literally saying this. Your attempting to pretend otherwise is pathetic.
You're arguing something that's completely tangential to what I was pointing out, and assuming a lot about my half of the argument in order to continue the argument. I think you might want to go back and actually read what I've been saying and what I was originally replying to.
I guess if your original post was completely tangential to the discussion this would be accurate?
If all you meant to say was "technically K'un-Lun is alien, not asian" and not actually comment on the discussion of racial stereotypes that you were responding to?
Which would be really weird since that's, you know, what the conversation was about.
No, but it seems people want there to be.