When I first read this, a few hours ago, I that that said "My body is ready".
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I've had an invitation to the Temple Club kicking around and I decided to use it. It's beneath the Forgotten Quarter, built around a fountain and a silver tree like the one from the Fourth City, except this fountain has snake-statues that barf booze and fermented mare's milk. The club has a bunch of cool little things you can do there, including an alternate way to get Premises at the Bazaar, but I only get the one visit unless I'm invited back or somehow figure out how to become a member.
And then my dude noticed something weird in the fireplace...
The outlines of a warrior and a robed man fighting. Then I started having other visions. A robed figure holding a chest. The skyline of Paris.
And I investigated further...
Drowning
You walk over to the fountain. The serpent spews airag with ophidian calm. The smell of it is all around you. It's overpowering. Now you can taste it. It fills your mouth. Your lungs. You're drowning in airag. You cough and retch. Other members come over to help you, but they can do nothing. You black out.
And then it's gone. You can breathe again. The others are staring at you. 'No need to shout,' says a red-faced aristocrat. You beg his pardon. 'You were ranting! And in a funny accent, no less! Lot of nonsense.'
You enquire further. 'Warn the kings of the West', you said, and 'The Bazaar cannot be allowed to deal in Europe. Its eye must not fall on a Christian city!'
Someone chuckles. 'Bit late for that! And it hasn't turned out so badly, what?' People laugh, awkwardly.
You never again see patterns in dust or dancing flames in the Temple Club. The serpent is still. Whatever spirit frequents the Temple Club apparently considers its message delivered.
Hm. Hmmmm!
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
Pretty sure I sent the last one, another is on the way
Edit: membership to the club was a perk to their Kickstarter a while back. Not sure if they opened it up to everyone else since, or not.
Caulk Bite 6 on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited January 2017
Oh, sweet, okay. That means maybe there'll be another opportunity with the Sunless Skies Kickstarter.
Jacobkosh on
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
Just need to grind up 20 Making Waves over the next few days, and I'll be a Midnighter.
I've started to go on expeditions to the Forgotten Quarter, since I need university access for something (for what? Now I don't remember my plan). I am not a huge fan. I'm farming whispered hints by attending courtly functions, which is not bad, but not too fun.
@Aersien invited me on a date to the house of chimes and took secrets from me?!
These ulterior motivations...
Steam, LoL: credeiki
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
I feel like Docks Favours are really the way to go for gathering supplies
4 supplies per, no challenge and only 50 rostygold required
the only problem is the fairly sporadic nature of acquiring them, but you can increase chances by having a Taciturn Mynah from Watchmaker's Hill, or certain other Fate-based opportunities
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
The change to the favors system means that if you don't have a connected pet that grants favors, you done fucked up.
Switching my crappy mole to a Bandaged Raven was well worth it.
Unlike @credeiki I really like expeditions. They feel weighty, but I like it a lot more than getting locked into something like flash lays or pickpocket's promenade. I've also been paying entirely with Favours: Docks, so I go expeditioning when my supplies are built up.
But I'm now at the point where my next expedition is probably supposed to be The Cave of the Nadir. Which is fine, once I get back to 60 supplies, but I'm not sure why. I've got two shifty companions, one of whom seems to have bought into the deepest horrors of the revolutionary agenda. I don't understand why they want to go to the Cave, which worries me. I have no idea why I'd want to go to the Cave regardless of them. Was some of this revealed in the long chain of opportunity cards I've forgotten?
Oh, and it needs an Eyeless Skull. I found one a few weeks ago, but it gave me terrible opportunity cards so I sold it. Plus I've gathered that all the illumination items are somehow tied to the revolutionaries and the Liberation of Night.
Really the whole enterprise screams bad idea from the outset. If there were an option up to this point to tell my partners in this thing to hash out their dysfunctional marriage ins someone else's parlor I probably would have, but the game seems very set on my going to this place. I'm just missing the motivation beyond "it's there" which in Fallen London is how you end up eating your own teeth and such.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
The husband says that there's a secret there about the nature of the Bazaar, and that it's older than the Bazaar (or something like this). The wife says that she can sell it to the Surface powers for a lot of money. Secrets and cash seem like ok motivations.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
You should do it because one day we will be free of all light and law
'Cause you might get a chance to lock them both in the damn cave, and take the McGuffin for yourself as a nice bit for the mantel, right next to the rat of glory.
Also technically right before you wnter the cave has the most "efficient" way to convert Fate into echoes, at 312 echoes per action & 50 fate, along with a lot of unique items for another couple actions each time.
If you want to just blow 50 bucks on getting rich or something, I mean.
I feel like Docks Favours are really the way to go for gathering supplies
4 supplies per, no challenge and only 50 rostygold required
the only problem is the fairly sporadic nature of acquiring them, but you can increase chances by having a Taciturn Mynah from Watchmaker's Hill, or certain other Fate-based opportunities
I bought a tankard in order to get the requisite amount of docks reknown and it didn't take me all the way up to 5 reknown (maybe I didn't start with maxed out favors? Probably should have checked.) The thought of buying another pricy tankard annoys me, so I'm just gathering whispered hints. (Plus I don't have a reliable way of getting docks favors, either.)
I guess I do like opening the mystery bundle at the end of the expedition? That feels cool.
Maybe my problem is that I'm entirely unmoved by archaeologists and don't envision my fallen londoner as one, so spending a lot of actions at something I am not really invested in is a bit annoying.
I feel like Docks Favours are really the way to go for gathering supplies
4 supplies per, no challenge and only 50 rostygold required
the only problem is the fairly sporadic nature of acquiring them, but you can increase chances by having a Taciturn Mynah from Watchmaker's Hill, or certain other Fate-based opportunities
I bought a tankard in order to get the requisite amount of docks reknown and it didn't take me all the way up to 5 reknown (maybe I didn't start with maxed out favors? Probably should have checked.) The thought of buying another pricy tankard annoys me, so I'm just gathering whispered hints. (Plus I don't have a reliable way of getting docks favors, either.)
I guess I do like opening the mystery bundle at the end of the expedition? That feels cool.
Maybe my problem is that I'm entirely unmoved by archaeologists and don't envision my fallen londoner as one, so spending a lot of actions at something I am not really invested in is a bit annoying.
Using the tankard for renown should not have expended it. Double check your inventory and it should still be there. I have used mine quite a few times and I think the only way to lose it would be one of the fate locked options.
Whoops! I can't dip souls in my leftover lacre anymore because I have no Urchin renown, and I can't get any because they forgot to update the carnival action (which now just does nothing).
Switch: SW-2431-2728-9604 || 3DS: 0817-4948-1650
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
I feel like Docks Favours are really the way to go for gathering supplies
4 supplies per, no challenge and only 50 rostygold required
the only problem is the fairly sporadic nature of acquiring them, but you can increase chances by having a Taciturn Mynah from Watchmaker's Hill, or certain other Fate-based opportunities
I bought a tankard in order to get the requisite amount of docks reknown and it didn't take me all the way up to 5 reknown (maybe I didn't start with maxed out favors? Probably should have checked.) The thought of buying another pricy tankard annoys me, so I'm just gathering whispered hints. (Plus I don't have a reliable way of getting docks favors, either.)
I guess I do like opening the mystery bundle at the end of the expedition? That feels cool.
Maybe my problem is that I'm entirely unmoved by archaeologists and don't envision my fallen londoner as one, so spending a lot of actions at something I am not really invested in is a bit annoying.
a simple way to get to 5 renown with any of the factions that have it implemented is to go to Ms Plenty's Carnival at either the Big Top or the Sideshows, depending on which faction
while it might cost 2-3 actions per it's very reliable and I would suggest raising renown via that way before buying the favours -> renown conversion item since the Carnival option ceases being available when you reach 5 renown IIRC
I prefer connections to favor/renown. In part because they seem to be trying very hard to make favors less reliably obtained even though there are things that really rely on having the factions as an expendable resource.
I feel like Docks Favours are really the way to go for gathering supplies
4 supplies per, no challenge and only 50 rostygold required
the only problem is the fairly sporadic nature of acquiring them, but you can increase chances by having a Taciturn Mynah from Watchmaker's Hill, or certain other Fate-based opportunities
I bought a tankard in order to get the requisite amount of docks reknown and it didn't take me all the way up to 5 reknown (maybe I didn't start with maxed out favors? Probably should have checked.) The thought of buying another pricy tankard annoys me, so I'm just gathering whispered hints. (Plus I don't have a reliable way of getting docks favors, either.)
I guess I do like opening the mystery bundle at the end of the expedition? That feels cool.
Maybe my problem is that I'm entirely unmoved by archaeologists and don't envision my fallen londoner as one, so spending a lot of actions at something I am not really invested in is a bit annoying.
Using the tankard for renown should not have expended it. Double check your inventory and it should still be there. I have used mine quite a few times and I think the only way to lose it would be one of the fate locked options.
*checks inventory; tankard is present*
Hmph well, if my Watchful were high enough to notice that sort of thing, I wouldn't need to go on expeditions in the first place...
I prefer connections to favor/renown. In part because they seem to be trying very hard to make favors less reliably obtained even though there are things that really rely on having the factions as an expendable resource.
The issue with connections is that prior to the favors/renown system everything was really kludged together without a reliable value/generation rate for conmections. Some stuff was effectively ungrindeable, some stuff had reliable grinds that also generated resources, and some stuff (as my huge Constables/Society/Church shows) had absurd boosts that are almost impossible to spend; in my case, my menaces remover doubles as a ridiculously efficient grind for all three.
I ate an engineer
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
it's also silly that doing actions which consume connections is like...impossible to quantify
i've done things where doing actions on one card consumed connections to the point of making me not qualify for another action on the next card and it's like "well, how was i supposed to know i would drop below that specific threshold of Connected required"
favours are nice and tidily quantifiable and since you don't lose Renown for trading in Favours you can track your overall "progress" with a faction much better than you could before with Connected since various actions might randomly increase/lower it
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
Also what's the deal with the posi process
I passsed the 4 100 checks and the barrister said something about getting in touch?
Do i literally just flip cards waiting for the next step because that's fucking dumb
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Dr. ChaosPost nuclear nuisanceRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
All these warnings when taking on this quest to find Mr. Eaten's name..
What the hell am I getting into that they're worried I'm gonna rage about it in an email to them?
I passsed the 4 100 checks and the barrister said something about getting in touch?
Do i literally just flip cards waiting for the next step because that's fucking dumb
Yes. I had to wait about two weeks for the card to show the first time (it gets more common once you are a POSI).
Alternatively a friend with a certain amount of notability can send the card to you.
I just blew 1500 pages of research to get back into the university for... nothing? There's no new story stuff at all. I guess just the searing enigma conversions or whatever.
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
I passsed the 4 100 checks and the barrister said something about getting in touch?
Do i literally just flip cards waiting for the next step because that's fucking dumb
Yes. I had to wait about two weeks for the card to show the first time (it gets more common once you are a POSI).
Alternatively a friend with a certain amount of notability can send the card to you.
I just blew 1500 pages of research to get back into the university for... nothing? There's no new story stuff at all. I guess just the searing enigma conversions or whatever.
All these warnings when taking on this quest to find Mr. Eaten's name..
What the hell am I getting into that they're worried I'm gonna rage about it in an email to them? Weird.
You can apparently actually die
As in, your account literally gets deleted?
In addition to a bunch of other bad shit happening
That's just what I've heard
Well...shit.
Guess that explains it. Going to have to think about this, I guess. I would definitely stop playing if I had to start from scratch at this point.
I really should quantify exactly what SMEN needs since I looked into that much for my play, but at minimum unless you have the right outcome from a fate-locked non-resettable storyline you probably need either 10000 echoes or four months making a classic short story, along with 200 watchful with gear and a ton of time dedicated to dying/being imprisoned/generally fucking yourself up.
I guess it isn't too difficult to just do the unaccountably peckish cards and slowly build the SMEN quality but the candles get ridiculous.
I ate an engineer
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I keep on getting an oppertunity card for the The Affluent Photographer.
But her option requires me to have trailing at 3, but I have it at 2, and can't seem to find a way to raise it.
I've been mining Cheesemonger for Connections and, most importantly, Favours: Docks to buy expedition supplies. But then I accidentally served the Cheesemonger too well and now I no longer get those cards. Oops.
The idea behind favor and renown, basically having an expendable resource and a way to expend it to make the resource more valuable, is solid enough. It also makes sense that a group that likes you can do you favors without liking you less. Just in execution the cap on 7 means favors are all pretty big, and it gets rid of the chance to get a little bit of a stat from an unrelated activity, which I like. And each favor to renown conversion requires its own item, and the items are all fairly pricey, so new players I guess should just figure out that they're supposed to grind up to 5 at the carnival and then stay there for a very long time? I don't think the feeling of it is quite right.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I passsed the 4 100 checks and the barrister said something about getting in touch?
Do i literally just flip cards waiting for the next step because that's fucking dumb
Yes. I had to wait about two weeks for the card to show the first time (it gets more common once you are a POSI).
Alternatively a friend with a certain amount of notability can send the card to you.
I just blew 1500 pages of research to get back into the university for... nothing? There's no new story stuff at all. I guess just the searing enigma conversions or whatever.
That's.... Incredibly silly
@Orphane I think he's talking about Slowcake's Amanuensis, not the next POSI stage. The Amanuensis is how you raise notability after you become a POSI.
the next POSI stage can happen multiple ways from multiple Barrister cards so if you get one and are like pffff fuck that keep flipping because there are others that might be more amenable
Jacobkosh on
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
I passsed the 4 100 checks and the barrister said something about getting in touch?
Do i literally just flip cards waiting for the next step because that's fucking dumb
Yes. I had to wait about two weeks for the card to show the first time (it gets more common once you are a POSI).
Alternatively a friend with a certain amount of notability can send the card to you.
I just blew 1500 pages of research to get back into the university for... nothing? There's no new story stuff at all. I guess just the searing enigma conversions or whatever.
That's.... Incredibly silly
Orphane I think he's talking about Slowcake's Amanuensis, not the next POSI stage. The Amanuensis is how you raise notability after you become a POSI.
the next POSI stage can happen multiple ways from multiple Barrister cards so if you get one and are like pffff fuck that keep flipping because there are others that might be more amenable
Yeah, turns out i flipped the card to get lodgings or w/e
I had enough random currencies on hand to buy all the basic housings so i just did that
The next step requires that i either spend a ton of actions doing stuff I haven't actually been working on or just do the Cheesemonger storyline
I might just work on the dangerous beasts story since i have that unlocked concurrently while i try to flip cards since i didn't actually get started on the Cheesemonger storyline early due to not knowing how to start it for the longest time
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Orphanerivers of redthat run to seaRegistered Userregular
I've been mining Cheesemonger for Connections and, most importantly, Favours: Docks to buy expedition supplies. But then I accidentally served the Cheesemonger too well and now I no longer get those cards. Oops.
The idea behind favor and renown, basically having an expendable resource and a way to expend it to make the resource more valuable, is solid enough. It also makes sense that a group that likes you can do you favors without liking you less. Just in execution the cap on 7 means favors are all pretty big, and it gets rid of the chance to get a little bit of a stat from an unrelated activity, which I like. And each favor to renown conversion requires its own item, and the items are all fairly pricey, so new players I guess should just figure out that they're supposed to grind up to 5 at the carnival and then stay there for a very long time? I don't think the feeling of it is quite right.
I agree that they could stand to present the renown system in a smoother manner, but it seems like the favours/renown system is in and of itself relatively new to Fallen London. They've only implemented it for like 4 (maybe 5 since i think there was an announcement about Urchins) factions so far
Well, now to add urchins to renown grind. I had preemptively bumped my urchin connection up to about 170 which translated to 21 renown. Enough to get the first reward. So close to reward number two...
Hopefully it is as good as the defenstrating boots I got from the criminals.
Edit: and I think I just got a hint where the third urchin prize might be hidden. A hidden place far above London, looking down with grey eyes.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
I've been thinking that maybe someday I'll do SMEN with my current dude once I'm satisfied that I've done what I want to do
More likely, I'll just make an alt one of these days with the express purpose of Seeking
Posts
When I first read this, a few hours ago, I that that said "My body is ready".
And then my dude noticed something weird in the fireplace...
And I investigated further...
You walk over to the fountain. The serpent spews airag with ophidian calm. The smell of it is all around you. It's overpowering. Now you can taste it. It fills your mouth. Your lungs. You're drowning in airag. You cough and retch. Other members come over to help you, but they can do nothing. You black out.
And then it's gone. You can breathe again. The others are staring at you. 'No need to shout,' says a red-faced aristocrat. You beg his pardon. 'You were ranting! And in a funny accent, no less! Lot of nonsense.'
You enquire further. 'Warn the kings of the West', you said, and 'The Bazaar cannot be allowed to deal in Europe. Its eye must not fall on a Christian city!'
Someone chuckles. 'Bit late for that! And it hasn't turned out so badly, what?' People laugh, awkwardly.
You never again see patterns in dust or dancing flames in the Temple Club. The serpent is still. Whatever spirit frequents the Temple Club apparently considers its message delivered.
Hm. Hmmmm!
Edit: membership to the club was a perk to their Kickstarter a while back. Not sure if they opened it up to everyone else since, or not.
@Aersien invited me on a date to the house of chimes and took secrets from me?!
These ulterior motivations...
4 supplies per, no challenge and only 50 rostygold required
the only problem is the fairly sporadic nature of acquiring them, but you can increase chances by having a Taciturn Mynah from Watchmaker's Hill, or certain other Fate-based opportunities
Switching my crappy mole to a Bandaged Raven was well worth it.
But I'm now at the point where my next expedition is probably supposed to be The Cave of the Nadir. Which is fine, once I get back to 60 supplies, but I'm not sure why. I've got two shifty companions, one of whom seems to have bought into the deepest horrors of the revolutionary agenda. I don't understand why they want to go to the Cave, which worries me. I have no idea why I'd want to go to the Cave regardless of them. Was some of this revealed in the long chain of opportunity cards I've forgotten?
Oh, and it needs an Eyeless Skull. I found one a few weeks ago, but it gave me terrible opportunity cards so I sold it. Plus I've gathered that all the illumination items are somehow tied to the revolutionaries and the Liberation of Night.
Really the whole enterprise screams bad idea from the outset. If there were an option up to this point to tell my partners in this thing to hash out their dysfunctional marriage ins someone else's parlor I probably would have, but the game seems very set on my going to this place. I'm just missing the motivation beyond "it's there" which in Fallen London is how you end up eating your own teeth and such.
If you want to just blow 50 bucks on getting rich or something, I mean.
I bought a tankard in order to get the requisite amount of docks reknown and it didn't take me all the way up to 5 reknown (maybe I didn't start with maxed out favors? Probably should have checked.) The thought of buying another pricy tankard annoys me, so I'm just gathering whispered hints. (Plus I don't have a reliable way of getting docks favors, either.)
I guess I do like opening the mystery bundle at the end of the expedition? That feels cool.
Maybe my problem is that I'm entirely unmoved by archaeologists and don't envision my fallen londoner as one, so spending a lot of actions at something I am not really invested in is a bit annoying.
Using the tankard for renown should not have expended it. Double check your inventory and it should still be there. I have used mine quite a few times and I think the only way to lose it would be one of the fate locked options.
a simple way to get to 5 renown with any of the factions that have it implemented is to go to Ms Plenty's Carnival at either the Big Top or the Sideshows, depending on which faction
while it might cost 2-3 actions per it's very reliable and I would suggest raising renown via that way before buying the favours -> renown conversion item since the Carnival option ceases being available when you reach 5 renown IIRC
*checks inventory; tankard is present*
Hmph well, if my Watchful were high enough to notice that sort of thing, I wouldn't need to go on expeditions in the first place...
(thanks for pointing that out!)
The issue with connections is that prior to the favors/renown system everything was really kludged together without a reliable value/generation rate for conmections. Some stuff was effectively ungrindeable, some stuff had reliable grinds that also generated resources, and some stuff (as my huge Constables/Society/Church shows) had absurd boosts that are almost impossible to spend; in my case, my menaces remover doubles as a ridiculously efficient grind for all three.
i've done things where doing actions on one card consumed connections to the point of making me not qualify for another action on the next card and it's like "well, how was i supposed to know i would drop below that specific threshold of Connected required"
favours are nice and tidily quantifiable and since you don't lose Renown for trading in Favours you can track your overall "progress" with a faction much better than you could before with Connected since various actions might randomly increase/lower it
I passsed the 4 100 checks and the barrister said something about getting in touch?
Do i literally just flip cards waiting for the next step because that's fucking dumb
What the hell am I getting into that they're worried I'm gonna rage about it in an email to them?
You can apparently actually die
As in, your account literally gets deleted?
In addition to a bunch of other bad shit happening
That's just what I've heard
Guess that explains it. Going to have to think about this, I guess. I would definitely stop playing if I had to start from scratch at this point.
The problem is that currently there are relatively few ways to gain favors
The way I hear it, your character still "exists" at least in terms of the code is there and you can log in.
But you can't do anything with that character anymore.
Yes. I had to wait about two weeks for the card to show the first time (it gets more common once you are a POSI).
Alternatively a friend with a certain amount of notability can send the card to you.
I just blew 1500 pages of research to get back into the university for... nothing? There's no new story stuff at all. I guess just the searing enigma conversions or whatever.
That's.... Incredibly silly
I really should quantify exactly what SMEN needs since I looked into that much for my play, but at minimum unless you have the right outcome from a fate-locked non-resettable storyline you probably need either 10000 echoes or four months making a classic short story, along with 200 watchful with gear and a ton of time dedicated to dying/being imprisoned/generally fucking yourself up.
I guess it isn't too difficult to just do the unaccountably peckish cards and slowly build the SMEN quality but the candles get ridiculous.
But her option requires me to have trailing at 3, but I have it at 2, and can't seem to find a way to raise it.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
Now i have to finish the Cheesemonger story to get a quality i need to progress in PoSI
*Keeps flipping cards*
*flips orphane*
*flips table*
*flips self into a well*
The idea behind favor and renown, basically having an expendable resource and a way to expend it to make the resource more valuable, is solid enough. It also makes sense that a group that likes you can do you favors without liking you less. Just in execution the cap on 7 means favors are all pretty big, and it gets rid of the chance to get a little bit of a stat from an unrelated activity, which I like. And each favor to renown conversion requires its own item, and the items are all fairly pricey, so new players I guess should just figure out that they're supposed to grind up to 5 at the carnival and then stay there for a very long time? I don't think the feeling of it is quite right.
@Orphane I think he's talking about Slowcake's Amanuensis, not the next POSI stage. The Amanuensis is how you raise notability after you become a POSI.
the next POSI stage can happen multiple ways from multiple Barrister cards so if you get one and are like pffff fuck that keep flipping because there are others that might be more amenable
Yeah, turns out i flipped the card to get lodgings or w/e
I had enough random currencies on hand to buy all the basic housings so i just did that
The next step requires that i either spend a ton of actions doing stuff I haven't actually been working on or just do the Cheesemonger storyline
I might just work on the dangerous beasts story since i have that unlocked concurrently while i try to flip cards since i didn't actually get started on the Cheesemonger storyline early due to not knowing how to start it for the longest time
I agree that they could stand to present the renown system in a smoother manner, but it seems like the favours/renown system is in and of itself relatively new to Fallen London. They've only implemented it for like 4 (maybe 5 since i think there was an announcement about Urchins) factions so far
Hopefully it is as good as the defenstrating boots I got from the criminals.
Edit: and I think I just got a hint where the third urchin prize might be hidden. A hidden place far above London, looking down with grey eyes.
More likely, I'll just make an alt one of these days with the express purpose of Seeking